Started them on raw tonight :D

[ldg]

*While* it's still in the baggie, of course. :bigwink:

AC

Of course! :lol3:

...and no new food today. I posted in Lauren's thread, but Gary's making stew, which is going to need freezer space tomorrow. I'll need to work down the food for the kitties some more. So we probably won't pick up any more until Thursday. (Tomorrow afternoon is out because we have to take Flowerbelle to the vet, and it's north, nowhere near the pet shop. ).

 

[auntie crazy]

I bought a large cookie pan and have it sitting on the lowest level of my fridge, and that's where all raw meats are defrosted. Meats that I bring home from the grocery store are stacked there, too, until I have time to prep and pack them for the freezer.

I've had more than one bag of defrosting chicken hearts or rabbit just bleed all over that level, drip down into the drawers below and pool at the bottom of the fridge (so not cool!); the pan keeps all the meat juices contained so I don't have to deal with that any more. :-}

AC

 

[ldg]

:lol3: Unique problems here. A large cookie sheet doesn't even fit in our oven! (Though one MAY fit in the fridge? :dk: ).

 

[auntie crazy]

No home-made cookies for you, then, Laurie!

AC

 

[ldg]

We have one that's... 8 x 10? :lol3: Something like that.

 

[feralvr]

*While* it's still in the baggie, of course. :bigwink:

AC

Of course - I smoosh in the baggie

 

[feralvr]

Anytime I have ANY meat defrosting in the fridge, even though it's in a ziploc, I always have it sitting in a bowl, just because .  Guess we've all got our quirks. 

I want a freezer too.  Have two side by side fridges, but think I'm going to need a small freezer, just for the cats :lol3:

I started doing that because when I fed Bravo - there was a lot of extra juice when it thawed and I wanted paper towels just in case of a leak in the bag. A bowl is a great idea too

 

[feralvr]

Of course! :lol3:
...and no new food today. I posted in Lauren's thread, but Gary's making stew, which is going torow. I'll need to work down the food for the kitties some more. So we probably won't pick up any more until Thursday. (Tomorrow afternoon is out because we have to take Flowerbelle to the vet, and it's north, nowhere near the pet shop. ).

- I know how you feel - it is so disappointing not to bring home the "raw" when you were expecting to....., I just love seeing them in the freezer .

For Flowerbelle tomorrow... Hope she is doing well :cross: :rub: I still have to go and check my thread :lol3: Came to yours first

 

[feralvr]

I bought a large cookie pan and have it sitting on the lowest level of my fridge, and that's where all raw meats are defrosted. Meats that I bring home from the grocery store are stacked there, too, until I have time to prep and pack them for the freezer.

I've had more than one bag of defrosting chicken hearts or rabbit just bleed all over that level, drip down into the drawers below and pool at the bottom of the fridge (so not cool!); the pan keeps all the meat juices contained so I don't have to deal with that any more. :-}

AC

GREAT IDEA too - but I don't think Larry would take to kindly to a cookie pan taking up that much space in the fridge for "cat food" ... But these are great ideas for the juicy overflow

 

[ldg]

GREAT IDEA too - but I don't think Larry would take to kindly to a cookie pan taking up that much space in the fridge for "cat food" ... But these are great ideas for the juicy overflow

Gary's comment today when I found the freezer I've been looking at for $50 cheaper ($179, free shipping) was, "We'll talk about it later. But 3/4 of our home is already dedicated to the cats, so why shouldn't they have their own freezer?" :lol3:

Well, we're out of chicken. The NV samples are gone, and the Vital Essences chicken is gone. I didn't have any lamb in the fridge today (what is up with me? I really need to pay more attention to this LOL. Rest assured, there's lamb in there now), and I didn't want them to eat so much NV rabbit. So both lunch and dinner were chicken. They're eating it MUCH better than at first. :nod: It's so cute - now instead of standing there listening to everyone licking at canned food, I watch them all taking little bites and chewing. Of course - these are still tiny little pieces. But it's not just mush either.

Interestingly, as they have more chicken, they like it better. As they have more lamb, they like it less. :dk: Rabbit everyone likes. But those are the only three proteins they've had so far, raw. I am disappointed we couldn't get to the store today. I'm also getting nervous because we're almost out of rabbit.

I remembered there's a pet store almost across the street from this vet. I know they carry NV frozen. Don't know about anything else. Poor Flowerbelle may have to wait in the car with Gary for a few minutes while I run in there. I already told Gary we're freezing the stew in baggies rather than little containers. Gives us more flexibility for how to fit it all in there. :anon:

I am still mixing water into their food. The whole reason I even started them on wet food those many years ago was because ALL the boys had problems with crystals. (Yes, I know, the dry food). So apart from the moisture in the food, they're used to having about a tablespoon of water with each meal. Well - I also did this because at the time, they only liked gravy, so to up the quality of their canned, I turned it all into gravy. I'm slowly cutting down the amount of water I add... but it's weird to be scooping less of everything. Makes me nervous to see less pee. :lol3:

 

[feralvr]

OH Laurie :spit: on Gary's comment's. Sounds exactly like Larry who says we have more cat furniture, cat food, etc. etc. than people furniture and people food in the house. He always "complains" :wife: about it with a smile though. :lol3:

I have to chuckle too, because I am going through the same emotions and joy as you, and at the same time :lol3:. I love it how the cats have to chew the food too now. It makes me so happy inside to see them eat this way. AND I also add about a TBSP. of warm water too. My cats are used to the added water also . Also the same at my place, is the rabbit ... they just love the . Not too keen on the Lamb yet either, especially Presley. But somehow I am making this work and it has made me feel so good inside. I also did not get to the store today... but I have that bag of Nature's Logic Chicken in the freezer. I will go tomorrow to get some S&C quack quack. OH you know... NV makes an organic chicken and the bone meal is fourth down on the ingredients (thanks to the spreadsheet ).... that is better than being the second. Might use that one instead of the non-organic chicken. Have to see if Stacy can get that one too.

I think Miss Flowerbelle won't mind you running into the store for a few minutes. I really hope they have some great product for you, might be a nice surprise . Gary can just tell Flowerbelle she is taking "one" for the team, it is for a good cause after all. :rub: Just tell her she will get EXTRA "drugs" (topping's ) on her next meal and that you will name the new freezer in her honor :bigmouth: AWWWWWWW precious girl - hope all goes well tomorrow with her :cross:

 

[ldg]

:lol3: Flowerbelle and Shelly are our worst travel-to-the-vet kitties. She needs to have her blood pressure taken, and I want Stan to have a look at her and listen to her. Of course... she hasn't been coughing much the past few days. NOT THAT I'M COMPLAINING. It's just the old "car won't make that noise when you take it to the shop" kind of thing. :lol3: And of COURSE her BP will be sky high, poor thing gets SO nervous.

Anyway... we had lamb for dinner. And go figure, everyone but Shelly basically devoured it. Again, I was amazed at how much Flowerbelle ate before I went in there to relocate her bowl for her. :lol3: Tux didn't even need additional topping to finish his off. AND how hungry could they have been? Dinner was somewhere between an hour and one-and-a-half hours late.

:dk:

Day 6 / Evening 7

In fact, Tuxie WAS going to start beating up on a sleeping Ming Loy. BUT... he'd been asking for dinner INSISTENTLY while I was finishing dethawing it, it was pretty late, and I think it's a potential he was redirecting some frustration there - or knew it was a way to get attention. :dk:

Otherwise,

No one has chased Spooky.
Spooky has not even looked sideways at Chumley.
No incidents between Laz and Bill.

And a footnote: Tuxedo is the only one still asking for kibble. He's giving up more quickly though.

 

[carolina]

I have a peeeeeee question (not a poop this time, for a change :lol3
Laurie, are you really seeing LESS pee in the box since the raw? 'cause 'cause 'case............ since I cut all the kibbles and switched Bugsy and Hope to raw........ they have been peeing like never before
And here is the kicker: They are not drinking any water........ nada - none...... 0
I used to add water to their wet food, when they were on wet + kibbles, but cut the water to get them used to chewing........ and man..... they pee and pee and pee!
But - Bugsy eats almost 6.75 oz of raw and no kibbles at all, and Hope a bit less - probably around 6.5 a day..... Rad Cat is pretty juicy..... it might be it? :scratch:
Hum........

 

[ldg]

I've been adding less water to their raw than I was to their canned. But don't forget - until recently you were also feeding partially kibble. I was feeding four timed meals a day, all canned. That's at LEAST four tablespoons of water a day - plus the moisture in the canned, which seems to be a bit more than in the raw. I didn't measure the water, I use a squirt bottle and just splop water in their bowls. Because Chum was dehydrated when we first rescued him, I gave him a LOT of water - and MAN that boy was peeing. But I never altered how much water I was running through him.

So I've been gradually reducing the amount of water they're getting, so yes, I'm seeing less pee.

And, speaking of water, I had a bit of a scare this morning. One of the smaller water bowls was EMPTY - and I cleaned and filled it before bed. I wondered WHO the heck had gone crazy and why.... and then I saw Ming Loy wobbling around. I felt the carpet under the bowl. Yup - soaking wet. :lol3: Ming Loy must have fallen over into the bowl and sloshed all the water out of it without tipping it over.

Lazlo woke me early this morning wanting food. I made him wait until breakfast. As I was fixing their bowls, he retched. Obviously his tummy was empty, so it was just bile. I felt TERRIBLE. I mean - he's been battling bleeding ulcers. KNOCK WOOD - at least there was no blood (he's on medication). But I have GOT to get treats I can feed them that are quick and easy. I ordered some S&C chicken dehydrated.

And he didn't eat much rabbit at breakfast. So I opened up a can of food after breakfast was done and let him eat. He ate quite a bit.

 

[feralvr]

:rub: to Lazlo..... poor little tummy. The freeze-dried cubes will help a lot - great little treats .... Wonderful reports again here today!!! I just LOVE it

Can I ask you exactly how much you are feeding a day (ounce wise) to each cat? I am a bit confused as to whether I am giving them enough food or not. Carolina - you say you are feeding 6.5 ounces - so that would mean - lets say - NV medallions are one ounce each - that would be six medallions each per day !!!! I am only giving them about four a day. Is that enough? :scratch:


For Flowerbelle today - poor little darlin' :rub: I certainly hope we hear good news from her check-up :cross:

 

[ldg]

Lauren, I talked with AC about the right amounts tonight too. :nod: She replied to your thread. I was trying to compare how much wet they ate with how much canned they were eating. She pointed out that it's comparing apples and oranges. :nod: (Well, hamburgers and carrots anyway LOL).

That said... my cats were eating FAR FAR less than the recommended amount of canned food. :nod:

AC's point is that it's better to overfeed than underfeed, and to adjust from there.

We don't have a scale here to measure their weight. I do have a gram scale, so can measure their food... but I'm not inclined to do that unless it becomes necessary, and I don't think it is, yet.

I know all of their ideal weights:

Lazlo (going to be 10 this year) 11.5 pounds (He's 12 pounds 6 ounces at last weigh in, and the vets definitely do NOT want him gaining weight from there!)

Shelly (going to be 10 this year) 11.5 pounds (they have the EXACT same build). I suspect Shel weighs around 11 pounds - MAYBE 11.5. Somewhere between is possible, of course. He's definitely lost weight the past... few weeks? Month? All I know is that when he was last at the vet, he weighed 12 pounds, and she said he could stand to lose a pound. And he looked thin to me. Now he looks skinny. Not unhealthy skinny like Lazlo did before... but skinny.

Tuxedo (going to be 10 this year) 10.5 - 11 pounds. He weighed over 12 pounds last month when we took him in. Given he got down to 7 pounds with the anemia, and we fought it for years, every time he gained weight, we were just SOOO happy. But at 11.5 pounds, he looked healthy to me. But I know that "healthy" to me is technically overweight for them. Stan said (when he weighed 11 3/4 pounds) that for MOST cats, he'd recommend him losing a pound, but he was willing to make an exception for Tuxedo. :lol3:

Spooky (going to be 10 this year) 10.5 - 11 pounds. She's roughly the same size as Tuxie. She was overweight, but took it off slowly last year, and I'm pretty sure she's at her ideal weight. She was last at the vet in April for a dental. I don't remember how much she weighed then, but she needed to lose a little weight, and she has since then. :nod:

Flowerbelle and Ming Loy are my little girls. :lol3: (Flowerbelle will be 9 (!!) this year; Ming Loy will be 8) Ming Loy got up to about 10 pounds, I think, at her peak, and was fat. I've definitely managed to take some weight off of her the past year, but it was slow going. I'm not sure how much she weighs now, but she and Flowerbelle are the same size (or should be). As Flowerbelle weighs 8 pounds, and isn't fat, I'm guessing Ming Loy is between 8.5 and 9 pounds. :nod: Their ideal weight is 7.5 pounds, but Stan wasn't in a rush to get the weight off (Flowerbelle).

Billy is fat.(Going to be 5 this year). He weighed 14 pounds (and I think he GAINED weight from there). He's the reason we stopped free feeding kibble. He's got roughly the same frame as Tux and Spook. He has definitely lost some weight over the past several months as I've been more diligent about ensuring he doesn't eat the other kitties' food during meals, but he needs to lose weight. He may be back to 14 pounds... he may be 13 pounds... I don't really know. I don't remember if he still had a waist when we were at the vet with him. :anon: But he SHOULD be 10.5 to 11 pounds. :anon:

Chumley (going to be 5 or 6 this year) gained a lot of weight with the free feeding, our poor rescue baby. He's the reason we went to timed wet food meals. He also got up to around 14 pounds, and Dr. Cheng wants him around 10.5 - 11, though she wouldn't complain at 12. But he's lost weight - he probably weighs between 12 and 13 pounds now.

The bottom line? I think we're used to thinking cats are a healthy weight when they are, in fact, overweight. Their healthy weights all look very thin to me... but that is one thing the vets definitely know better than I do. :lol3: On that, I will believe them. Especially since three of them all seem to agree on what the ideal weights for them are.

So how much to feed?

AC feels it's best to feed at the 3% of their body weight. This works out to more than the feeding calculators on the sites - but I am clicking on inactive senior when using the calculators. Several of the feeding guidelines from the companies target 2% of the body weight. I chatted with Stan today because we were there with Flowerbelle.. Now, he knows next to nothing about feeding raw. :lol3: But his opinion (for what it's worth) is that I should gauge the appropriate amounts by how much gets left in the bowls of the kitties that self-regulate (on average, over a couple of days).

I am pretty sure that Billy has a very slow metabolism. So if I look at them as a group, using 3% for all of them BUT Bill, and using 2% for him, and using their TARGET weights, I should be feeding 2 pounds, 6 ounces daily. I've been feeding 2 pounds. At each meal, I give them one 8 ounce patty NOT divided equally. I haven't been weighing, but I give Flowerbelle and Ming Loy the least, and Shel and Laz the most.

HOWEVER... Tux, Laz, and Flowerbelle ask for food outside of meals, and I've been giving them canned (I used to give them kibble outside of meal time). I've been giving in less and less to Tux and Flowerbelle outside of meals, and they've been eating meals pretty well. :nod: But Lazlo... because of his (former, knock wood) ulcers and the cancer... I don't feel comfortable not letting him eat when he's hungry. He's been eating meals pretty well, for the most part. But I don't "force" any of them to finish. I do encourage them to with SOME fussing, coaxing, and toppers LOL., but I can do more to help them finish. :nod:

I think they're OVERALL getting what they need... because Flowerbelle weighs the same amount today as she did last month. If I were underfeeding her, I think we'd be seeing that by now. I know one week isn't enough to tell, but we'll be back in three weeks with her, so I'll have really good input then. :nod:

Shelly has not been finishing his meals the past day and a half or so. And toppers and fussing aren't helping. And Billy is all to happy to eat his food.

So here's what I'm going to do.

I'm going to assume that because they needed SO MUCH LESS than the recommended amounts of canned food, that they don't need the recommended amount of raw. AC says that it's rare that 2% of body weight is enough. So if I calculate 2.5% for all of them but Bill, and calculate him at 2%, I need 2 pounds of raw each day, which is what I've been feeding. But there is leftover for the ferals every day. Not each meal, but some here and there from various cats. I'll weigh the leftover the next few days, but based on volume, I'd guess it's about 4 ounces of food.

And the "between meals" canned eaten by Laz, Tux, and Flowerbelle works out to be about 3-4 ounces. I typically give them two 3 ounce cans (total, not each) in a 24-hour period, and they leave half of each to a little less than half of each uneaten.

I ordered Stella & Chewy's dehydrated chicken for cats. It won't be here until the end of the week or the beginning of next week. But instead of canned, I'm going to give that to Lazlo - and maybe Tux and Flowerbelle - between meals. Tux and Flowerbelle I'm going to get stricter about finishing meals and not feeding between meals, but that's a goal, not an ultimatum. Yet. :lol3:

Lazlo can eat when he's hungry. :heart3:

While I wait for the S&C, I'll give them some Halo chicken as a treat, and I'm going to put more effort into getting them to finish their meals. :nod:

And Shel... I don't know what's up. But I'm going to switch how they eat. Flowerbelle has ADD when it comes to eating. Even though she's hungry, she gets distracted really easily. :lol3: To manage that, I've been feeding her alone in the bathroom. But a couple of meals, she was asleep and didn't wake up when called for meals (she's deaf). So I stuck her bowl up in her "cave" in the upper corner of the bedroom. She eats REALLY well there!

So starting tonight (and I'm late for late night dinner!), I'm going to put Shel in the bathroom, and Flowerbelle in her cave.

And I'm going to continue to feed 2 pounds of raw, and bump the amount I give to Shel and Laz a little bit, and reduce the amount I've been giving Ming Loy and Billy. Flowerbelle I think has a high/fast - whatever word - metabolism. At 3% and 7.5 pounds, she needs basically the same amount of food as Billy at 2% of 11 pounds (3.5 ounces a day).

Lazlo, we'll find out on Monday what he weighs - and it'll have been basically two weeks on raw (or mostly raw). :nod:

Sorry for blathering on. :anon:

The short answer to your question is - I feed them about an ounce at each meal, four times a day. Laz and Shel probably get somewhere around 5 ounces over the course of the day because I give them more; Flowerbelle, Ming Loy, and Billy probably get around 3.5 ounces, and Spook, Tux, and Chum get about 4 ounces.

OK. Here's the table I created:

11.5 pounds Lazlo: @2.5% = 4.6 ounces
11.5 pounds Shel: @2.5% = 4.6 ounces
10.5 pounds Chum @2.5% = 4.2 ounces
10.5 pounds Spook @2.5% = 4.2 ounces
11 pounds Tuxie @ 2.5% = 4.4 ounces
11 pounds Billy @2.0% = 3.5 ounces
7.5 pounds Flowerbelle @3% = 3.6 ounces
7.5 pounds Ming Loy @2.5% = 3.0 ounces
Total: 32.1 ounces (almost exactly 2 pounds LOL).

And Laz, Tux, and Flowerbelle - and maybe Shel - will likely get some extra from "treats" (S&C dehydrated - which will be fed both dehydrated as a treat and rehydrated as a treat).

And with that, I'm off for their now pretty late, late night meal. :lol3:

 

[auntie crazy]

Just so you guys have more data for comparisons, my six cats get approximately 5.5 ounces of food a day, and their weights range from 8 pounds 13 ounces for Heather to 11 pounds, 6 ounces for Meghan.

AC

 

[carolina]

6oz for Hope, who is 13lbs, and 6.75 oz for Bugsy, who is 20lbs. This is the most I can feed Bugsy..... he is not gaining nor losing weight - he is keeping...... Hope on the other hand, is gaining, as she keeps eating the bites left off from Bugsy ::smshfrk:

To preventing Bugsy from thrwoing up, I am now starting to give him Halo treats in between meals - so is kelly, but not many - just a couple pieces, rehydrated...... for chewing :nod: and only in between the long periods without food.
IMHO it depends on the weight of the cat, but also on the activity level and the lean weight - Bugsy's lean weight is NOT 20lbs, and he is a total couch potato. Different from Hope, who is much more active, for example :nod:

 

[ldg]

OK. Lazlo woke me at 6:30 this morning for food. Because their meal time was two hours away, and it had been 7.5 hours since he ate, I opened a 3 oz can of Instinct Turkey for him. He ate about... 3/4 of an ounce of it. The ferals are getting the rest. I didn't let Tux, Flowerbelle, or Shel have any.

I'm getting low on raw and MUST go get more today. I've only had NV Rabbit and S&C Lamb available the last 1.5 days, and while they LOVE rabbit, they are SICK of lamb. BUT... since the NV definitely has too much bone, I fed them lamb for breakfast.

I think I am going to start weighing their individual portions for a while to make sure I'm divvying the portions up correctly. We have a food scale. It was weird this morning (which is why I think they're sick of lamb). Spooky only ate about half her food, Shelly took a LOT of fussing to get to about half his food. Lazlo left about 1/3 of his, same for Flowerbelle. Tuxie left a few bites. I'm not sure that all adds up LOL (actually, I just went and figured it out, and it does), but combined there was 1.8 ounces of food left for the ferals. This was about twice what they normally leave unfinished.

So per meal (as I feed them 4x a day), the amount I should be giving them (based on everyone at 2.5% of ideal body weight except Billy, at 2%, and Flowerbelle, at 3%) is:

Lazlo 1.15 oz
Shel 1.15 oz
Chum 1.05 oz
Spook 1.05 oz
Tuxie 1.10 oz
Billy 0.88 oz
Flowerbelle 0.88 oz
Ming Loy 0.75 oz

Oh - last night everyone ate great - except Shelly. I managed to get him to eat 3/4 of his food. There was nothing left, however, as I took what Shel wouldn't eat and gave the extra to Laz, Tux, and Spook.

 

[feralvr]

Laurie EXCELLENT post earlier - and I feel SO good hearing about how much you are feeding - and when. I am going through the exact same thing here. I also HAD to stop leaving dry out last year because Wendall and Walden are just like Billy - gorging little piggies . That is when I went to scheduled meals. I could easily start feeding four meals a day too - but my problem is Perla - she really only has an appetite twice daily - very odd...... I don't get it and it worries me for some reason. BUT I just might start doing exactly what you are doing :nod: Bump to four feedings a day at one ounce or so each :nod: I think I won't worry so much about puking either that way. Hopefully Perla will get in on the "raw feasts" too. :cross: OR - I might add one snack during the day of the S&C freeze-dried Chicken or Chicken/Salmon. OH BOY SO many choices!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THANK YOU for sharing all of that important information with us. Between you and your calculations and AC's expert calculations - I feel very reassured that I am on the right path as far as amounts to feed each cat.

GREAT NEWS all around at your place!! :happy3: SOO SOO SOO glad everything is going well, sweetie :heart3: NOW GO AND GET SOME MORE RAW