My 12 year old chubby cat has suddenly lost her appetite and is sleeping constantly

[catwoman707]

I have a couple of questions now.  @LDG  you might want to advise me on this. I appreciate everyone's help!

I haven't received the Nexabiotic or slippery elm bark powder yet, but wanted to ask, the nexabiotic is not 15 billion bcu but 30.

So I imagine the dose will be a half capsule?

When I start giving her these 2 supplements, do I start off slower and gradually increase up to the daily dose?

Yesterday while working adoptions at Petco, I had a lengthy conversation with a Nature's Variety Instinct rep. She pointed out that while they don't have canned rabbit in an only rabbit formula, maybe I can go with lamb, as they do have a lamb only canned.

She gave me an entire box of sample packs of dry lamb limited ingredient Instinct, and a couple of the small cans to try her out with.

If she will eat the canned lamb then I can go with that.

(although Krissy has been on the BB basics turkey and potato limited for a month now, no vomiting seen in quite a while, etc so I worry about switching her up)

The thing is, I can't tell if she is excessively licking and chewing due to the turkey because there are fleas in my backyard, so I have been treating her more often then what is normal treatment monthly, to try to get control over her excessive grooming. I flea comb her daily, then as soon as she goes outside for sunbathing, and a roll in the grass she is back to having fleas again.

(I plan to hit home depot today for some kind of yard spray)

Krissy has been overgrooming for a good year and a half at least now. Which was another indicator of an allergy to chicken.

But now I can't tell, is it the flea irritation or turkey?.......

She has always been very sensitive to fleas, so I have treated her every 3-4 weeks her entire life. NOT crazy about doing that either but no choice, one flea makes her bonkers.

So my question is, how do I give her the canned lamb if I have to feed it to her gradually? 

 
@catwoman707 -- how is your krissy doing?

Thank you for asking

 

[micknsnicks2mom]

@catwoman707 -- have you thought of using (food grade only) diatomaceous earth to sprinkle over your yard, as a flea treatment? as long as it's food grade diatomaceous earth, my understanding is that it's safe for both humans and cats. here's a link to some more info on diatomaceous earth -- http://www.thebugsquad.com/fleas/diatomaceous-earth-fleas/

 

[catwoman707]

 
@catwoman707 -- how is your krissy doing?

 
@catwoman707 -- have you thought of using (food grade only) diatomaceous earth to sprinkle over your yard, as a flea treatment? as long as it's food grade diatomaceous earth, my understanding is that it's safe for both humans and cats. here's a link to some more info on diatomaceous earth -- http://www.thebugsquad.com/fleas/diatomaceous-earth-fleas/

Very helpful article, thank you!

I have not considered using it, but I'm sure thinking about trying it out now!

 

[equestrian06]

 
Very helpful article, thank you!

I have not considered using it, but I'm sure thinking about trying it out now!

I use DE also... DE+ regular salt sprinkled on carpets and left sitting for a min of 30min and then vacuumed will annihilate your household flea population...

DE around your yard will also help, but keep in mind the DE must be dry to work - not so possible in some seasons.

One more tip... find a feed store to buy it from... local pet food places mark it up by 4-5 times (5lb bag at feed store $6... 1lb can at pet store, $18). But feed stores sell it much more agreeably.

 

[catwoman707]

 
I use DE also... DE+ regular salt sprinkled on carpets and left sitting for a min of 30min and then vacuumed will annihilate your household flea population...

DE around your yard will also help, but keep in mind the DE must be dry to work - not so possible in some seasons.

One more tip... find a feed store to buy it from... local pet food places mark it up by 4-5 times (5lb bag at feed store $6... 1lb can at pet store, $18). But feed stores sell it much more agreeably.

My home inside doesn't have the fleas, the problem is in my backyard, where my girls are allowed to go as desired, but this time of year, despite their flea treatments, they go outside and lounge in the sunshine, come back in and right away I notice chewing and scratching. They are biting Krissy's tummy/underside from laying on the grass and ground.

So I really need something that will actually work, I went looking and found home depot does have it, cost is $11.45 for a 4.4 lb bag.

Sounds reasonable and worth trying for sure! 

Thank you.

One other thing, I wonder if Krissy's inflammation would show on the outside at all? She sure looks pooched out more than her normal pooching this week. She gains weight easily, makes me wonder if the dry food will make her gain weight..........ugh. Lifelong battle with her, she just got that genetic disposition for being chubby. Some just do despite diet.

Alot of people and vets don't really get that, but do when they have had the experience in patients like Krissy who they know are not big eaters, and several diets have been tried with no help.

Krissy does get fatter on dry, despite watching her calories even. Drives me crazy. How a cat can actually gain weight with less than 200 cals a day, closer to about 180.

Go figure.'

My vet told me I'm doing good at keeping her from gaining, that's it's mnearly impossible to get some cats to lose.

(and I don't mean chubby like poor Mickey was either! He was purely overfed. Poor cute guy!)

 

[micknsnicks2mom]

 
Very helpful article, thank you!

I have not considered using it, but I'm sure thinking about trying it out now!

i think DE is often/many times overlooked to deal with fleas in homes and in yards. i like the idea of DE because it isn't chemicals/pesticides that humans and animals (cats) would be in contact with.

 

[catwoman707]

You know what? I have a big feeling that Krissy is also allergic to the turkey......

Despite the fact that she has been steady everyday, no more dramatic days, upset tummy, hiding, etc. but of course still not right, excessive water/being a loner, etc but there is one symptom she has had through this entire time, lightweight runny eyes, that I always forget about.

Just know, Krissy does NOT have nor ever has had a uri, nothing like that.

No, this is mild eye discharge, and is recent, like maybe the last year or so. Well today I see it is there again, and it sort of hit me that she is NOT on the right food being allergic to chicken, it may be poultry in general.

She is nearly finished with the bag of BB basics LID turkey, so I'm thinking time to start getting her on to either the other Nature's Variety Instinct LID lamb, but first I will thaw out the pork roast I bought and try her with that.

Ugh...

 

[goholistic]

Are you still giving her Fancy Feast Turkey & Giblets?

 

[catwoman707]

 
Are you still giving her Fancy Feast Turkey & Giblets?

She is, but things are about to change for her, I am ready to begin slowly working in the Nature's Variety Instinct, LID lamb food.

Just not sure how the heck to slowly switch the canned over to this.........once can is opened, it doesn't seem fresh anymore and is cold from the fridge.

I have to know she will eat the canned lamb food before I know it will work right for her.

That said, I am defrosting the pork loin I bought so I can test that out, if she and Simone will eat that, then I will start making her home cooked food.

I still wonder about doing so, what kind of meat? If chicken and turkey are out, then pork? Everyday, only pork?  That seems, well.....I don't know, not good?

Can you tell I don't know anything about all this?! Walking medical journal for kittens but know zip about probably the most important factor for health. Go figure...

 

[goholistic]

Okay, thanks. Then I honestly don't think you can judge whether or not the dry turkey food is working if the Fancy Feast has continued. Like I said, FF contains other proteins. It only takes one bee sting....not 100. 

  This is why trial diets are BRUTAL. They shouldn't have anything other than whatever protein you're trying. No treats. Not even supplements with beef, chicken, or fish as a flavoring.

I will try to come back in a little bit to answer your other questions. Or perhaps some others will chime in before I do. I have to head home from the office now.

ETA: I realized after I re-read my post that I'm not suggesting that you feed her just the dry turkey food. I'm simply reiterating once again that feeding some other food out-of-line with the trial diet pretty much cancels out the efforts, in my opinion. 

  It's frustrating, I know.

 

[catwoman707]

I'm feeling really annoyed and frustrated again.........

Everything has issues, honestly I am NOT good with dry food like this, here I am thinking I can at least work towards getting her on the lamb now, so I got the box of dry samples she gave me, and opened one up, Krissy of course liked the dry. Cool.

Then I saw there's a dog on the front, what? Did she give me dog formula for my cat?

I remember her saying that NV Instinct is good for dogs and cats, and I thought how could that be since their nutritional needs are so different.

So I tried to compare the ingredients list for dog to cat, and of course, they don't make the dry food for cats in lamb............Noooo, of course not for crying out loud.

So I compared the list for the dog formula LID lamb and pea, to their cat formula, turkey and pea, they really look nearly identical, but see the dog formula is missing taurine.

Cat turkey dry-

Turkey Meal, Peas, Tapioca, Canola Oil (preserved with Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid), Turkey, Natural Flavor, Montmorillonite Clay, Coconut Oil, Choline Chloride, Potassium Chloride, Salt, DL-Methionine, Vitamins (Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin Supplement, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin Supplement, Folic Acid, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement), Minerals (Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide, Sodium Selenite), Taurine, Green Tea Extract, Rosemary Extract

Dog lamb dry-

Lamb Meal, Peas, Tapioca, Pea Protein, Canola Oil (preserved with Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid), Lamb, Natural Flavor, Montmorillonite Clay, Coconut Oil, Potassium Chloride, Salt, Choline Chloride, Vitamins (Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin Supplement, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin Supplement, Folic Acid, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement), Minerals (Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide, Sodium Selenite), Green Tea Extract, Rosemary Extract

Cat CANNED lamb they do have-

Lamb, Lamb Broth, Lamb Liver, Peas, Montmorillonite Clay, Sunflower Oil, Potassium Chloride, Minerals (Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Cobalt Proteinate, Sodium Selenite, Potassium Iodide), Vitamins (Choline Chloride, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate, Vitamin E Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Niacin Supplement, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin A Supplement, Biotin, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Folic Acid), Flaxseed Oil, Salt, Taurine.

Like I was saying, this is okay if it's appropriate, but I don't know.

Now I am seriously thinking I need to make homemade food.

If I knew what to use for meat, I would just start doing it, but not feeling okay about pork of all things? I'd have to find either rabbit somewhere to order it, or lamb I suppose. (?)

Oh gawd.....

  

 

[equestrian06]

After you refrigerate the canned food, rewarm it like you would a bottle. Heat up some water and put the can into it until the food is warmed again.

Never microwave it though. After trying to give cats nuked food a couple times and having them turn their nose upas if I'd insulted them, I feel like nuking kills all the nutrients in everything.

 

[catwoman707]

After you refrigerate the canned food, rewarm it like you would a bottle. Heat up some water and put the can into it until the food is warmed again.

Never microwave it though. After trying to give cats nuked food a couple times and having them turn their nose upas if I'd insulted them, I feel like nuking kills all the nutrients in everything.

Haha, that's the same look I get when trying to give mine canned that was saved, then warmed slightly in the micro  

This morning I tried the BB basics canned LID turkey, sprinkled the fortiflora all over it, and they ate it! Who knew??! Yay!

Major breakthrough here, I'm feeling like I just might get them to eat any canned I want!

 

[micknsnicks2mom]

 
Haha, that's the same look I get when trying to give mine canned that was saved, then warmed slightly in the micro  

This morning I tried the BB basics canned LID turkey, sprinkled the fortiflora all over it, and they ate it! Who knew??! Yay!

Major breakthrough here, I'm feeling like I just might get them to eat any canned I want!

three cheers for fortiflora (used to entice)! i'm so glad you got this major breakthrough, as i understand how hard it's been for you so far.

 

[catwoman707]

Well I'm starting to consider leaping off of a high bridge nearby.....................

I've basically made up my mind that turkey is not the correct food for Krissy. In my own opinion, the small/subtle signs she has had that she is having reactions to food she's been eating, her licking her paws, the watery/light drainage from her eyes, and the small nasal wetness I hear (for some reason only when she is eating canned??) that I have seen for a good 2 years now, but after 6 weeks on the turkey diet, these should be gone or at least slowing down somewhat.

They have not.

Granted, as @GoHolistic  said, still feeding her fancy feast turkey, with those ingredients I did not give the turkey only diet a fair chance. 

I just can't help but think turkey isn't the right protein for her since she is allergic to chicken. I could still be wrong though too......

So nearly out of the dry turkey food, thought this is the right time to incorporate a new novel protein, switching her to rabbit (my choice), lamb, venison, or duck.

The trouble is, none of those have both dry and canned, one or the other is all I am finding. Go figure that one.....(?)

Anyway, so today after spending at least an hour at petco reading labels, etc I decided to try duck, Natural Balance has duck lid in dry and canned.

Cool, so I bought them, offered the canned tonight with fortiflora all over it of course, nope. She does not like it.   

So that idea is right out the window now.

I'm willing to make homemade for her, but stuck on what protein I can get ahold of.

I did get a tip from the worker at petco today, she said there's a Del Monte plant in the next town over that has fresh meat, so I will be calling tmrw about what they have to offer, hopefully it's not a minimum required thing.

@GoHolistic  is your Sebastian allergic to chicken as well? But he is okay with turkey?

Krissy eating a few bites of the duck and now she is not feeling so hot, I can see. I keep trying these different foods, and I think it's messing with her. I don't see any other way to find out if she will eat something or not, unless I put a small spoon of it in with her turkey canned. (?) Sheezz..

Should I stay with the BB turkey dry and the BB turkey canned now that I know she will eat it with fortiflora on it?

Give it a better, honest try, or is my gut telling me correctly? I don't know, STILL. 

I'm afraid of taking so much time, does she have another spare 4-6 weeks on the wrong food to spare? Is all this time going to do more damage? Could be. That I will not forgive myself for.

 

[micknsnicks2mom]

@catwoman707 -- two things that come to mind. first, sometimes cats don't recognize a new (novel) protein as a food source. so they don't want to try it. second, maybe with your krissy's sensitive tummy/gastro system right now it would help to gradually transition her from one canned food to another. i've transitioned wet foods with my mickey and snick before, just to do a more gentle switch from one canned to another.

i'll let others weigh in on the duck. my concern is the possibility that since duck is another "winged" animal/protein, and in the same family as chicken and turkey, that it could cause some (allergic) reaction. but i'm not nearly as knowledgeable about this as others are, so i'll leave this part to them.

 

[equestrian06]

My middle aged cat used to get sick with blue buffalo, no matter how gradually I tried to switch it, even after awhile he just didn't seem right with it. Finally giving up on it after 4 months, he was instantly better when I swapped to solid gold cans (light blue label formula).

Have you tried a different brand of turkey?
(Sorry, I did not read the past pages)

 

[catwoman707]

 
@catwoman707 -- two things that come to mind. first, sometimes cats don't recognize a new (novel) protein as a food source. so they don't want to try it. second, maybe with your krissy's sensitive tummy/gastro system right now it would help to gradually transition her from one canned food to another. i've transitioned wet foods with my mickey and snick before, just to do a more gentle switch from one canned to another.

i'll let others weigh in on the duck. my concern is the possibility that since duck is another "winged" animal/protein, and in the same family as chicken and turkey, that it could cause some (allergic) reaction. but i'm not nearly as knowledgeable about this as others are, so i'll leave this part to them.

I thought since duck is fowl rather than poultry it would be different enough.

But duck is out of the picture now, she took a couple bites and walked away.

The bites were likely just for the fortiflora..............Simone, my other girl hated it too.

It would be great if they all tasted like albacore tuna wouldn't it?!  

I still need to find out about my rabbit options.

My middle aged cat used to get sick with blue buffalo, no matter how gradually I tried to switch it, even after awhile he just didn't seem right with it. Finally giving up on it after 4 months, he was instantly better when I swapped to solid gold cans (light blue label formula).

Have you tried a different brand of turkey?
(Sorry, I did not read the past pages)

There are so few limited ingredient turkey canned foods out there with only that single source of protein in it, so I went for that one, as she loves the dry version.

 

[catwoman707]

Well Krissy isn't feeling so hot, and who can blame her with all the tryouts of new food.............

Back to BB dry turkey and fancy feast..................she will not eat the BB turkey even with the fortiflora. Shoot!

I'm just not getting anywhere.

Does anyone happen to know how I would go about finding a vet who will be a second opinion via phone/emails?

 

[micknsnicks2mom]

 
Well Krissy isn't feeling so hot, and who can blame her with all the tryouts of new food.............

Back to BB dry turkey and fancy feast..................she will not eat the BB turkey even with the fortiflora. Shoot!

I'm just not getting anywhere.

Does anyone happen to know how I would go about finding a vet who will be a second opinion via phone/emails?

i'm so sorry that your krissy isn't feeling well. 

do you mean finding via phone/email a vet to do a second opinion? or finding a vet who will do a second opinion after reviewing krissy's medical records/tests (but not actually seeing krissy and doing any tests), over the phone and/or by emails? you may be able to find a vet to do a second opinion the way you're thinking, but i think it still comes down to trusting the (second opinion) vet/the vet's experience.

are you still considering a home cooked and/or raw diet? if so, i do remember reading somewhere on dr lisa pierson's website that she does phone consultations for raw or home cooked diets after she's received and reviewed the patients medical records -- for those cats that have medical issues/have specific dietary needs due to medical issues. there's a fee.

i think i'd worry that a second opinion by another vet where the vet is really only looking at your krissy's medical records and test results, might really only be this other vet interpreting again the symptoms and results of the tests already run. and if there are differing opinions between the two vets, that might confuse me (even more).