My 12 year old chubby cat has suddenly lost her appetite and is sleeping constantly

[denice]

I don't use a probiotic but I know people who routinely use them use the human ones instead of fortiflora.  I think a lot of people who feed raw use probiotics.  I know a lot of people use Natural Factors.  LDG knows a lot about probiotics but as I am sure you know she is busy moving and getting her ferals moved.  I think Mrs. Greenjeans also uses them.

I think a lot of people have a knee jerk negative reaction to any and all prescription foods.  As far as I am concerned especially when it comes to a chronically ill kitty it's a matter of whatever works.

 

[catwoman707]

Can anyone tell me how to find a good holistic vet in my area?

Gosh I've been digging for a long time now, like an hour, and getting absolutely nowhere!

The definition of holistic as quoted

"Holistic medicine is an umbrella term that includes such therapies as:  clinical nutrition, acupuncture, chiropractic, homeopathy, homotoxicology, functional medicine, herbal or botanical medicine, prolo therapy,  vibrational or energy medicine, detoxification and more.  Holistic medicine views the body as a whole and not as a bunch of isolated organs or organ systems.   The holistic point of view is that no one system functions on its own .   A disease which may on the surface appear to affect only one  organ system actually affects all systems.     Holistic medicine does not attempt to name  or treat individual diseases but does attempt to identify and correct  abnormal body  functions which may underlie many diseases.     Holistic medicine believes that the major underlying causes of  dysfunction include:  malnutrition,  a leaky gut, an unbalanced immune system, an out of control inflammatory response,  poor detoxification,  a deficiency of antioxidants,  a loss of cellular communication, excessive physical and psychologic stress,   spinal misalignment,  neurotransmitter  imbalance and poor hormonal control."

Leaky gut, an out of control inflammatory response. That's Krissy!

SOOO........while she doesn't need more testing etc, I would LOVE  a phone consult and being able to send via email all of Krissy's background and results, and get their opinion and recommendations for treatments, to get her system back to good again.

But even going to the AHVMA site helped none. It's confusing and got me nowhere.

Ideas on how to find a good one?

Thanks!

 

[catwoman707]

 
I don't use a probiotic but I know people who routinely use them use the human ones instead of fortiflora.  I think a lot of people who feed raw use probiotics.  I know a lot of people use Natural Factors.  LDG knows a lot about probiotics but as I am sure you know she is busy moving and getting her ferals moved.  I think Mrs. Greenjeans also uses them.

I think a lot of people have a knee jerk negative reaction to any and all prescription foods.  As far as I am concerned especially when it comes to a chronically ill kitty it's a matter of whatever works.

Thanks so much, and I agree about LDG, I would LOVE to get Lauries opinions and advice about all of this, but know she has her hands very full now!

Darnit

I also agree with your last comment, I just don't know the right or best answers which is why I thought it might be a very good thing to try to contact a holistic vet for help.

Thanks.

 

[denice]

That is a tough one.  I think most people find them by word of mouth.  I know Goholistic goes to one along with her conventional vet but I don't know how she found one.  The issue is there are no standards, basically anyone can say they are a holistic vet.  Holistic has become a buzz word that can bring in business so some conventional vets have added it to their website to bring in business but they are really conventional vets.  I actually would trust them less than conventional vets that make no pretense about being anything other than a conventional vet.  

 

[denice]

If you go down to LDG's post in this thread http://www.thecatsite.com/t/274582/long-term-ibd-meds  there is a lot of info there with links.  She also has included the probiotics that she uses.   She has also included a link to the website http://ibdkitties.net/  which has a lot of info.  They also have a link to a facebook support group for people with IBD kitties.  

A lot of people have started using bone broth which, at least the last time I was there, a lot of people in the support group were trying.  The idea is cook the bones real long and slow to infuse the broth with collagen.  The collagen helps to seal the leaky gut which many holistic practitioners believe is the root cause of IBD.

 

[catwoman707]

 
That is a tough one.  I think most people find them by word of mouth.  I know Goholistic goes to one along with her conventional vet but I don't know how she found one.  The issue is there are no standards, basically anyone can say they are a holistic vet.  Holistic has become a buzz word that can bring in business so some conventional vets have added it to their website to bring in business but they are really conventional vets.  I actually would trust them less than conventional vets that make no pretense about being anything other than a conventional vet.  

That's just what I was sensing as well, but the statement explaining what a holistic vet is, sucked me in, as it describes Krissy's issues so well. 

She has inflammation in her pancreas, intestines, lymph nodes, all very likely caused  by a food allergy that has been going on for a long time and not addressed.

So she is all out of whack, and feels urgent that she get settled down as soon as possible, to avoid further problems developing since her ultrasound does show it is not new. (thickened bowel loops, etc)

You know the worst part is? Back when I first got her blood panel results last Dec and we eliminated other causes for her eos being so high,  it pointed to a food allergy she was battling, so I dug around, and asked here and there, and got nowhere, unfortunately, if I had, I seriously doubt we would be in this boat now. Poor Krissy.

Her vet recommended benedryl! How is that fixing the problem?! (different vet, but he is supposed to be a very good one...)

Now I'm feeling a deja vu, as it's all feeling so familiar, just like when I tried to figure out what to feed her to stop her allergic reaction.

So complicated. I'm worn out from being preoccupied and being consumed every day with all of this, and I can only imagine how tired my poor cat is of feeling crappy all day, every day. 

No clear cut answers, no pill or med to give her to make her well again.....spent this entire evening searching for info on the net. AGAIN....still at the same place with the same questions as I was. Sorry, just frustrated.

I don't feel like I get anywhere with my vet either, not a reflection on her, it's just what to do? 

It's like trying to run in neck deep water, and there's a crocodile after me.

 

[goholistic]

 
Thanks so much, and I agree about LDG, I would LOVE to get Lauries opinions and advice about all of this, but know she has her hands very full now!

Darnit

I mentioned this already in post #56 in this thread, but I've seen Laurie direct people back to a post she made in another thread because it is FULL of information on how she views IBD and how to manage it. I'll quote myself from that post:

Here's a good [long] post from @LDG on the subject of IBD. It's going to seem overwhelming, but I encourage you to try to read through it slowly and carefully.

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/278273/the-well-known-problem-of-ibd-or-lymphoma/90#post_3576295

I'm not sure how much more I can add on to what's already been discussed earlier. I could tell you again what Sebastian is on to help manage his chronic pancreatitis, if it would help. But the last time I did that I think it overwhelmed you! 

  Sebastian is on quite a regime, part of which includes supportive supplements and nutraceuticals, such as probiotics and s. boulardii (for healthy gut flora), a quality fish oil (for anti-inflammatory omega-3s), B12 injections, and purified water. Since Krissy is eating well, perhaps you could work with your vet to implement some of these remedies.

Oh, and regarding the Fortiflora...I don't really consider that to be a good quality probiotic. It only has one strain. It seems many people use it simply as a topper because it's so palatable, but I, personally, would not choose it for an IBD kitty. The animal digest and brewer's yeast also turn me off as they can be irritants to some cats with sensitivities.

 

[micknsnicks2mom]

 
That's interesting and good to know!

No, the only thing about a hydrolyzed diet I have found was that it's not all that highly regarded, as it is giving the same food that she reacted to but tricking her body into thinking it's really not. Not sure but while it does make sense, I really don't know enough about whether or not it's something I should try or not.

As for cerenia, while I see she does have an upset tummy occasionally, I don't see her vomit very often at all, in fact now that she is on only this food, and I am NOT giving her chicken or treats, etc she is eating well and haven't had any upset tummy signs.

As I mentioned though, she is always not feeling good, but who can blame her, she has all kinds of inflammation, and fluid/water retention too that causes her to be bloated. That's where my anxiety is coming from really, knowing she is either uncomfortable, or in some amt of pain, no telling, but her hiding away and becoming a loner/antisocial-ish tells me she hasn't felt well in a long time.

But thinking cerenia would be more if she was vomiting more than maybe once a week if even.

Very glad it works perfectly for you!!

How long has your cat had pancreatitis/ibd?

Does the inflammation go away?

Okay so you have convinced me I need to get her on fortiflora. Thanks! I really thought it was more of a balancing out thing when there is diarrhea present.

I'm getting a bit stuck now on the rabbit food, there is dry, nature's variety limited rabbit, but their canned as well as all the other brands I see all have other proteins. Why would they go and do that?! 

Crap, I have to be able to feed canned too not only dry. Treats too even ))) 

Should I wait it out on the turkey thing for another 2 weeks? IDK....  makes my head spin. I really do think though that turkey is not really the novel protein go-to for Krissy since it's looking more like the chicken may be the culprit and I SURE hate to waste more time, finding out that she is not getting well on turkey, then switching her and waiting it out another month.....I am asking for trouble, you know what I mean, too long she has been like this already and scarring her pancreas and can even cause small cell lymphoma. I can't even stand to think about this......

i'm hesitant to bring this up as a possible option, but i've been thinking that it might be something to consider for your krissy. have you considered serving a homemade raw or home cooked diet for krissy? this is not an area that i have any experience with, but i've read a reasonable amount about it and do plan on converting all my future cats to a balanced home cooked diet. my thought is that with a homemade raw or home cooked diet, you'll be able to control what goes into it. it may sound like a lot of work, and kind of overwhelming. but here at TCS there are many who feed their cats homemade raw or home cooked diets, and i feel sure will be glad to work with you to make sure the diet is what krissy needs and is nutritionally balanced. also, since you live in california you have the (much easier than for those of us living further away) option of consulting with dr lisa pierson to develop a diet for your krissy. she's in lomita, and you're 6+ hours away, but if i'm not mistaken dr pierson also does phone consults (after all medical records are sent to her) for developing raw or home cooked diets for pets with medical issues. hopefully, other members here will add their thoughts about this. it's just something that i think might be worth considering for your krissy.

 

[stephenq]

I think the thing with hydrolyzed proteins with respect to tricking the body, if the trick works, then success!  I coudn't use it because my cat got diarrhea from the wet version of it, but it seems to help a lot of cats and the point is, whatever works, works right?

But it seems like something else is going on, no diarrhea, stools mostly ok, but fluid accumulation...?  I hate to mention this but when you said fluid accumulation my mind went in a bad direction.....your vet has ruled out FIP yes?

It's not clear how long Simon has had pancreatitis, as the test for it generally only shows positive when they are in a flare up, but his IBD went from mild to severe the summer before last so i am going to say around that time or somewhat later.  The vomiting attacks have easily been 6 months or longer.  His intestinal inflammation has been better ever since we started him on the Pred which has been about a year.

Also, this article talks about how cats with pancreatitis often don't have vomiting, but lethargy and lack of appetite are early symptoms.  Has Krissy had a PLI test?

http://pets.webmd.com/cats/pancreatitis-cats

 

[ldg]

I'm so sorry you haven't found the key to helping Krissy feel better yet.

I'm not sure you really want my opinion. I co-founded a Facebook group Raw Feeding for IBD Cats with Carolina. Kitty after kitty with IBD is feeling better with either a raw diet or a homecooked diet. You can rip your hair out trying to find a commercial food that agrees with her - but they almost all have one thing in common: non-human grade ingredients, almost always there's "stuff" that a cat doesn't need (and may not agree with kitty), and it's close to impossible to find a canned food without thickeners. GoHolistic's Sebastian turned out to be allergic to Guar Gum. You can put the work into identifying the stuff that bothers Krissy - and that can be a long, difficult road, especially if she isn't eating well. Or you can skip it all, and feed a simple, homemade food - that may be difficult to get her to eat (at first), but you KNOW it will promote her feeling well, because there are no questionable ingredients. I am finding that picky cats are sick cats. When they feel better, they are no longer picky. And as IBD kitties generally do not do well with dry food (as it is ultra processed), I don't think they should be fed any.

Probiotics are a MUST. If a cat has ever been on antibiotics, their gut flora was wiped out. Fortiflora, I'm sorry, it is a very poor choice of probiotic. It is a GREAT appetite enhancer for kibble cats because it's primary ingredient is animal digest, the same stuff they spray on kibble that creates kibble addicts. But it has one strain of probiotic in it, E. faecium. Cats (mammals, in fact) need acidophilus to uptake B vitamins properly, other strains of lactobacillus - plantarum, for instance, helps prevent UTIs. Bifidobacterium helps the colon. We're seeing many, many cats do well on either Renew Life Ultimate Flora (15 billion CFU) or Nexabiotic (also 15 billion CFU). You can give 1/2 capsule of the Renew Life 2x a day, and either 1/2 capsule or 1 full capsule of the Nexabiotic (I order it on amazon, and I prefer Nexabiotic because it contains S boulardii, which is anti-inflammatory and helps restore normal function to the GI tract).

GoHolistic's rotation for Sebastian is great, IMO. Using the novel proteins and rotating them helps prevent any development of allergy - though using supplements like probiotics, slippery elm, and giving bone broth all help prevent the leaky gut that results in allergic reactions in the first place.

I think you should add slippery elm bark syrup to help her nausea (it also helps heal). And if needed, use the cerenia and pepcid or ranitidine (ranitidine is Zantac, and the dose is 1/8th of a 75mg tablet 2x a day).

Sometimes the pred is needed if the inflammation has persisted for so long, or if you don't feed a diet that is anti-inflammatory. Once their guts heal up a bit, you can be a bit more liberal in what you feed (sometimes). But IMO, rather than trying a billion different canned foods, just make homemade. Use the Fortiflora if you need to, in order to get her to eat it.

But to address the inflammation, you need to feed an anti-inflammatory diet (no kibble, a simple human-grade diet, IMO), help restore her healthy gut flora (probiotics), and use food and supplements to help stop the leaky gut and promote GI healing (bone broth, slippery elm bark). Some cats benefit from digestive enzymes - but that does reduce their need for the same volume of food, and you may find she gains weight unless you cut back the amount of food you feed her.

Just remember - with IBD, you need to introduce everything new slowly. Food, probiotics - anything.

When a kitty's GI system has been messed up for some time, healing can take a while. But the steps to take are really quite simple. They just need to be worked into our schedule.

Oh - and the diet that is good for IBD is also good for pancreatitis. You may additionally want to consider a curcumin supplement to help fight inflammation (can help with IBD and pancreatitis). I use Doctor's Best Standardized Curcumin C3 Complex, 500mg capsules, and measure 1/64th teaspoon into each of 3 meals a day (works out to about 90mg of curcumin daily). But that's for Flowerbelle, a 7 pound cat. You may need to work up to double that for Krissy. (Again, introduce everything SLOWLY and work up to recommended doses).

 

[ldg]

Oh - for Lazlo, I am also using Canna Companion. I suspected he had ongoing mild pancreatitis after the 6 months of chemo. And this was the final key in making him feel better. He's no longer picky, eats his meals, isn't nauseous, and is acting like Lazlo again. :lol3: It is a hemp that is high in CBD (cannabidiol) - very low THC, so legal. http://www.cannaforpets.com/

 

[catwoman707]

Thanks so much everyone for your advice and support!

Laurie, so lucky to have you take the time away from your busy life right now to help with Krissy.

Okay so from what I've read in several places, it doesn't sound like Krissy actually has IBD, but rather an out of control inflammatory response due to an allergy, and if my gut instincts are hitting it right, it's chicken that she has been responding to so negatively.

I would like to believe that once we get her system settled down and back to normal, and all of the inflammation gone, she will be good again.

This is why I believe she does NOT have vomiting and diarrhea also.

I think her sky high eos back in Dec were my cue that she needed a diet change.

I was feeding her BG 95% chicken dry and canned, fancy feast chicken and also several varieties of fish from fancy feast.

Then my lack of knowledge had me thinking I needed to lose the fish from her diet, that maybe it was the problem so I did, which put her on an even bigger chicken diet. Which has now caused all this inflammation.

Micknsnicks2mom  mentioned Dr. Pierson who I am familiar with, I went to see what she had to say about foods, and while I can't say I'm good with raw, but I'm def. willing to start with 50-75% cooked/25-50% raw. Eekkk! Why am I scared of that?!

I see problems though, for one, I can't afford to buy a good grinder at the moment, and 2, if she is reacting to chicken, then what am I supposed to feed her? I have to use something that will get that inflammation gone asap.

So I'm rather lost, makes my head spin honestly.......but anything for Krissy to be well again.

I just really need a hand holding through it!

Is this appropriate to start now though? (probably never a better time huh?!) I just have to know she will eat it though too.

I tried feeding her jenny-o turkey patties a month or so ago, it was a no go. 

So I am so NOT familiar with several of the things you mention in your post. It almost makes me get overwhelmed.

If Krissy was your cat, what supplements/probiotic (I think you already told me that one) and food would you feed her? Considering she is reacting to chicken. Turkey? One novel protein I know.

(just so you know how nervous it makes me, I want you all to know I literally have stomach cramps right now!) what a nutcase! haha!

But to recap, Krissy should be getting a probiotic, omega 3 fatty acids, and curcumin? Which omega 3 would you recommend? Slippery elm and bone broth too?

 

[denice]

From what I understand some kitties are allergic to all poultry others to chicken only.  Patches has a chicken allergy so I have stayed away from poultry in general at least in any quantities.  I do occasionally feed Hounds and Gatos which uses duck liver so he is getting some poultry.  Patches also can't tolerate beef so it's a challenge to keep him fed without breaking the bank.  I have done a little with home cooked but I have to use freeze dried liver with home cooked, the only liver that can be found in premixes or routinely in stores is either beef or chicken.

 

[catwoman707]

 
From what I understand some kitties are allergic to all poultry others to chicken only.  Patches has a chicken allergy so I have stayed away from poultry in general at least in any quantities.  I do occasionally feed Hounds and Gatos which uses duck liver so he is getting some poultry.  Patches also can't tolerate beef so it's a challenge to keep him fed without breaking the bank.  I have done a little with home cooked but I have to use freeze dried liver with home cooked, the only liver that can be found in premixes or routinely in stores is either beef or chicken.

Exactly why I've been so concerned about her being on turkey as her novel protein. I don't know how we will know, I can't find a good canned rabbit with only rabbit, and if I did, would she even eat it? Not a clue, never tried feeding her rabbit canned, but how she is about other grain free, GOOD canned, I have my doubts.

I literally do not know. 

If I tried making homemade, how can I possibly without chicken or turkey?  Another day, stuck, consumed with it all.

By the way, how do you know that he can't have chicken, but turkey is okay? Seems like it takes a while to see a reaction. (?)

Krissy ate well today, a good 1/3 cup of dry and maybe 1/2 can of fancy feast turkey canned.

Wish I wasn't creating a dry food addict all over again.............if there is a good alternative that she WILL eat, I would gladly feed it to her, whatever it is.

For all I know, the turkey diet thing is starting to help maybe? I need to knock on wood........I don't dare say that to her]

If it does work, I won't continue feeding her dry once she is recovered. That leaves me with making homemade I think.

 

[catwoman707]

 
I think the thing with hydrolyzed proteins with respect to tricking the body, if the trick works, then success!  I coudn't use it because my cat got diarrhea from the wet version of it, but it seems to help a lot of cats and the point is, whatever works, works right?

But it seems like something else is going on, no diarrhea, stools mostly ok, but fluid accumulation...?  I hate to mention this but when you said fluid accumulation my mind went in a bad direction.....your vet has ruled out FIP yes?

It's not clear how long Simon has had pancreatitis, as the test for it generally only shows positive when they are in a flare up, but his IBD went from mild to severe the summer before last so i am going to say around that time or somewhat later.  The vomiting attacks have easily been 6 months or longer.  His intestinal inflammation has been better ever since we started him on the Pred which has been about a year.

Also, this article talks about how cats with pancreatitis often don't have vomiting, but lethargy and lack of appetite are early symptoms.  Has Krissy had a PLI test?

http://pets.webmd.com/cats/pancreatitis-cats

Sorry I meant to answer your post.

Apparently it is not uncommon to have some fluid when there is intestinal inflammation like she has, it's not fip. (THANKFULLY)

 

[micknsnicks2mom]

 
Thanks so much everyone for your advice and support!

Laurie, so lucky to have you take the time away from your busy life right now to help with Krissy.

Okay so from what I've read in several places, it doesn't sound like Krissy actually has IBD, but rather an out of control inflammatory response due to an allergy, and if my gut instincts are hitting it right, it's chicken that she has been responding to so negatively.

I would like to believe that once we get her system settled down and back to normal, and all of the inflammation gone, she will be good again.

This is why I believe she does NOT have vomiting and diarrhea also.

I think her sky high eos back in Dec were my cue that she needed a diet change.

I was feeding her BG 95% chicken dry and canned, fancy feast chicken and also several varieties of fish from fancy feast.

Then my lack of knowledge had me thinking I needed to lose the fish from her diet, that maybe it was the problem so I did, which put her on an even bigger chicken diet. Which has now caused all this inflammation.

Micknsnicks2mom  mentioned Dr. Pierson who I am familiar with, I went to see what she had to say about foods, and while I can't say I'm good with raw, but I'm def. willing to start with 50-75% cooked/25-50% raw. Eekkk! Why am I scared of that?!

I see problems though, for one, I can't afford to buy a good grinder at the moment, and 2, if she is reacting to chicken, then what am I supposed to feed her? I have to use something that will get that inflammation gone asap.

So I'm rather lost, makes my head spin honestly.......but anything for Krissy to be well again.

I just really need a hand holding through it!

Is this appropriate to start now though? (probably never a better time huh?!) I just have to know she will eat it though too.

I tried feeding her jenny-o turkey patties a month or so ago, it was a no go. 

So I am so NOT familiar with several of the things you mention in your post. It almost makes me get overwhelmed.

If Krissy was your cat, what supplements/probiotic (I think you already told me that one) and food would you feed her? Considering she is reacting to chicken. Turkey? One novel protein I know.

(just so you know how nervous it makes me, I want you all to know I literally have stomach cramps right now!) what a nutcase! haha!

as i'd mentioned earlier, i've looked into/researched making nutritionally complete raw and home cooked diets -- though again, i have no experience in this area at this point. something that surprised me was that there are options in......how home made we want or need to get with the raw or home cooked. my understanding is that there is commercial raw (pre-made, you buy it all made up for you), chunks and pre-ground raw (which can be cooked by us, and supplements added to make it nutritionally complete), and (i believe there are some different forms of -- like chunks, and whole) raw meats (which can be cooked by us, and supplements added to make it nutritionally complete) and we grind ourselves. i think some people do start out with the commercial raw or chunks/pre-ground raw, and eventually move to the chunks/whole and grind it themselves. bearing in mind that i have no experience with this yet, my thoughts for when i start converting my (future) cats to a home cooked diet are to start with the pre-ground meats/chunks and add a nutritionally complete supplement (like alnutrin w/calcium, though there are other brands). this avoids the cost of buying a grinder, and lets me become familiar/experienced with preparing a home cooked diet -- at least to start off with. i feel that i'll feel less overwhelmed by the process of making a home cooked diet if i start out that way.

"if she is reacting to chicken, then what am I supposed to feed her?" you've got choices about what protein for your krissy! the haretoday dot com website lists quite a few novel proteins they offer. one choice is the rabbit you were leaning towards earlier. and i'm so glad that @LDG was able to reply! to quote her here -- "Or you can skip it all, and feed a simple, homemade food - that may be difficult to get her to eat (at first), but you KNOW it will promote her feeling well, because there are no questionable ingredients. I am finding that picky cats are sick cats. When they feel better, they are no longer picky." and -- "Fortiflora, I'm sorry, it is a very poor choice of probiotic. It is a GREAT appetite enhancer for kibble cats because it's primary ingredient is animal digest, the same stuff they spray on kibble that creates kibble addicts." now, i'm hoping i don't misunderstand what @LDG is meaning here. that was what i was thinking too, that you could skip the whole (what can be a lengthy) process of trying to isolate exactly what your krissy is having the allergic reaction to -- and it is possible to be more than one ingredient in the food causing the allergic reaction) and trying to find a canned and a dry cat food that is what krissy needs and will eat and simply take a different approach by serving a raw or home cooked diet -- where you control exactly what is in it. and with the second quote -- see, i knew that others would know much more than i do about these things. ok, so the fortiflora is a poor choice of probiotic. but it's a very good flavor enhancer, and one that may very well help entice your krissy to eat the raw or home cooked diets. and after krissy starts eating the raw/home cooked diet and starts feeling better, it's reasonable (maybe even likely) that she will associate her feeling better with the new diet. i know my snick does associate the sub-q's she gets with feeling better. so at some point you may very well be able to gradually reduce and/or completely stop using the fortiflora -- though you'd still be giving your krissy another probiotic that's being given just as a probiotic (not like the fortiflora that is just being used as a flavor enhancer). i'll leave the suggestions for what probiotic and why, to those who know much more about them than i do.

edited to add:  dr pierson's website does mention another source for raw meats -- wholefoods4pets dot com, which seems to be only for rabbit (but you were thinking about rabbit) and i believe is located closer to where you live (the meat is shipped frozen, so shipping from a closer source insures the meat will stay well frozen when it gets to you). i believe that haretoday dot com ships from pennsylvania.

 

[goholistic]

 
I am living life everyday now, holding my breath basically, it's been 2 weeks and 3 days since she started on the BB basics turkey/potato dry food.

I did chat with my vet about it being acceptable to give her fancy feast turkey/giblets classic, she looked up the ingredients and thinks it should be fine.

Fish and chicken are eliminated completely.

Quoting an older post (meant to do this awhile ago), there is both "meat by-products" and "poultry giblets" in Fancy Feast Turkey & Giblets. Since "meat by-products" does not specify a source, then multiple species of animals are used (beef, pork, etc.). Poultry giblets could come from any fowl, but most likely chicken. They also do not specify the liver.

I know you're already trying to move on to more novel protein, but I just wanted to make sure you knew that Fancy Feast Turkey & Giblets could essentially contain a quite a mix of different proteins. So, unfortunately, this turkey only diet is not turkey only. 

 

[abbyntim]

I haven't had a chance to read what everyone has written to you. I first want to say that I am sorry you are going through this with Krissy. I want to share my experience with my Tim in case it might help you.

Tim is almost a year out from when he was so sick. It took me months to get him to where he is today, but he's doing very well on a diet of approximately 65% commercial raw and 35% limited ingredient canned. I believe he is sensitive or allergic to chicken, so he currently eats turkey, pork, and rabbit. In addition to eliminating chicken and fish from his diet, I feed foods with one or two named proteins and I avoid carrageenan and xantham gum. I try to avoid guar gum, but my girl Abby eats one food that contains guar gum and he sometimes gets into her food. I try to limit agar agar, though he eats a small amount of food daily that contains this ingredient and seems to tolerate it. Finally, Tim seems sensitive to foods that are higher in fat, so I have to watch that. However, we are having some success with the gradual introduction of a higher-fat raw food. Current foods are:

• Rad Cat raw turkey - Tim loves this food. I like it because it's turkey muscle and organ meats with limited supplements. They use ground egg shell instead of bone for calcium, which is important to me as I am not sure if Tim has a problem with constipation.
• Primal Pronto raw rabbit - I selected this brand because it's moderate fat and the bone percentage is lower than some other raw brands. But it contains more vegetables than I think a cat needs.
• Stella & Chewy Absolutely raw rabbit - I am gradually introducing this brand because it's higher fat. But it contains only meat and minimal supplements, so seems "cleaner". So far he is tolerating this well.
• Small Batch raw rabbit blend without vegetables - I am not sure if this is a balanced food, so I feed him approximately 10 calories (0.25 ounce) per day. I plan to review the ingredients with the holistic vet at our next appointment to see what she thinks, as it contains rabbit muscle and organ meats, including secreting organs, but no added vitamins or minerals.
• Nature's Variety Instinct Limited Ingredient Diet canned turkey
• Nature's Variety Instinct canned rabbit (includes pork liver)
• Lotus Just Juicy turkey stew
• Lotus Just Juicy pork stew
• Meant for Abby, but Tim gets into on occasion: ZiwiPeak canned rabbit and lamb
• Meant for Abby, but Tim gets into on occasion: Pure Vita canned turkey stew

Tim takes a daily probiotic. Right now, we use Proviable DC, though I may consider switching him to one of the brands LDG mentions above. I feed Tim homemade turkey bone broth on occasion (when we were in intense healing mode, I fed it daily). I also give Tim a blend of supplements that mimics Vet's Best hairball and digestive remedy (psyllium, slippery elm bark, and marshmallow root) but without all the extra stuff that may upset his stomach. If Tim is showing signs of nausea, I give him supplemental doses of slippery elm bark syrup. Luckily, I've not seen nausea in him since late July or early August.

Tim had many signs of what I believed was widespread inflammation. He was under our vet's care for two serious constipation episodes, yet he had frequent diarrhea. He vomited a lot, sometimes food, sometimes just liquid. He had frequent hairballs, despite almost daily doses of Laxatone. He developed asthma. He developed urinary crystals when on canned food, even though he never had them on dry food. Our vet thought he had HCM (a recent workup by a veterinary cardiologist found it was not HCM and his heart is, in fact, perfect for his age). Tim did not play, he hid frequently, spent much time under the bed. Keep in mind, Tim was fairly young; he just turned 5 in July, so this all started happening when he was only 3. All of this stuff is now gone.

Our vets did not know what to do with him. They threw out terms like "pancreatitis" but never tested for it. They put him on a variety of medications (I don't remember what they were), each of which caused more problems and really impacted the quality of his life. As he was not better with all these medications and, in fact, was worse, I stopped everything except cisapride and decided to attempt to address his inflammation. Our vets told me it was really hard to change a cat's diet and good luck. I've not been back to them since.

However, I did find a holistic veterinarian who practices a blend of traditional and holistic veterinarian medicine that matches my comfort level, so I've had very good guidance throughout the long process to get Tim to where he is today. It was a long process because we wanted to wean Tim off cisapride, which took four months. Additionally, cats with sensitive stomachs don't respond well to rapid changes. Some changes need to happen fast; for example, I switched Tim to NVI LID food practically overnight when I realized the foods I was feeding him were probably making him sick. But every change since then has been very slow and gradual.

Some things I learned from the holistic vet that might help you:

1) Rabbit is often tolerated very well by cats with sensitive stomachs, so I would encourage you to try that. Both of my cats love canned rabbit. Interestingly, neither one will eat any of the three brands of raw rabbit listed above on its own. Tim will eat raw rabbit mixed with canned, so that's why he is not 100% raw.

2) Some cats with IBD or sensitive stomachs cannot tolerate high fat in highly processed foods, so you should monitor fat content. At the same time, some of these cats can tolerate higher-fat raw foods because the raw fat is more digestible. So far, I am seeing this with Tim, but we are taking this very slow.

3) Some cats cannot tolerate processed chicken, which may be due more to the processing than the fact that it's chicken. When more time has gone by and Tim has not had problems, I am going to try introducing Rad Cat raw chicken.

4) A variety of proteins is good. Tim's and Krissy's chicken allergies/sensitivities may be due to them being over-fed a single protein. Because I am taking changes very slow with Tim, in November I plan to introduce one or two different raw foods to increase his variety.

As I mentioned above, all of his inflammation issues appear to be gone. I am now only dealing with a potential sensitive-stomach cat, which we seem to be managing with diet. I don't think Tim will ever be the cat he was before he was damaged by the food he was eating previously, but I am very happy with his progress and he seems to be perfectly healthy. It's amazing that it really was just a (significant) diet change, with some supportive supplements, that brought about such a change. This is what worked for Tim. It might work for Krissy, it might not. But this might give you some other options to consider. Unfortunately, it's often trial and error with these cats. I am fortunate that most things I tried worked, but it was a long, slow process.

 

[cocheezie]

Wild Calling has come out with a turkey wet. Here is a link to the list of ingredients: http://wildcalling.com/products/trotn-tommy/

I personally have not tried it. Only one store in town carries Wild Calling, and I have never seen this flavour on the shelves.

 

[ldg]

Given the description of her intestines, it does not sound like run-away inflammation from allergies to me. It sounds like IBD. The allergies are a symptom.

Wild Calling still has cassia gum and guar gum.

If this were my cat and I was scared of raw, I would

1) Move to timed meals, slowly. She does not need more stress. This can take months. That's OK. This is not a race, it is a journey.

http://www.thecatsite.com/a/transitioning-free-fed-kibble-kitties-to-timed-meals

Summary of article:

Define a feeding spot.
Define a call for a meal.
Define an amount of time for her to eat (10 minutes, 15 minutes).
Figure out how much she will eat in 10 - 15 minutes.
That is the amount of dry food you feed per meal. Feed as many meals a day as needed to account for 1/2 to 2/3 of her total daily needed food. Let her graze overnight if you usually leave food out for her to eat. Leave out a MEASURED amount of food overnight, so you know how much she's eating, and you know how much she needs to eat during the day.
Slowly start increasing the amount of food at meal times, and start dropping meals during the day. You may need to feed 8 small meals. Over a month or months, you will slowly drop the number of daily meals to however many you want, and eventually you pull the overnight kibble.


2) Make homemade cooked food with turkey, rabbit, or lean pork loin (make sure the turkey or pork is not enhanced - sodium must be less than 100mg per 4oz serving). I would use this recipe. Normally it includes eggs, but as you suspect a chicken allergy, I'd use egg yolk lecithin instead (for the choline). It does not contain chicken PROTEIN, which is what causes the allergies.

Recipe for home-cooked, adapted from a recipe posted by mschauer.

1 pound of boneless protein (beef, pork, turkey, whatever. As you will likely be purchasing boneless meats, they come without skin. So do not trim a lot of the fat, cats need fat (even cats with pancreatitis). Dark meat like thigh has more nutrients than breast. Many cats do better with poultry or pork than red meats. It is best to make batches with different proteins and rotate at least three (after they have each been individually properly introduced)).

1.5 oz of some kind of liver (PIA, but freeze the rest in 1.5 oz portions for use in later recipes). Since you suspect a chicken allergy, perhaps use veal liver, as beef can cause some kitties problems.

1/2 teaspoon of finely ground eggshell powder

1 capsule of a 1,000mg salmon oil

1/4 capsule of a Natural Factors Hi-Potency 50mg B-complex

A scant 1/8th teaspoon of Morton LITE salt (used for iodine AND potassium, not sodium - thus the LITE salt) (if you want to be exact, the amount is 0.6 grams)

1/16 capsule Dry Vitamin E (where 1 cap is 400iu). Empty the capsule, divide into half. Divide the half in half (quarters). Divide that half in half (eighths). Divide that half in half (16ths). Use a razor blade. If it's not exact, don't worry about it.

1 gram Taurine (One 1,000mg capsule). I use NOW brand.

1/5th capsule of 10mg chelated manganese (1 cap = 10mg; you want 2mg. It won’t hurt if it’s not exact. If you dump out the capsule, split it into thirds, then split one of those in half and add a touch, that’ll be fine!) Brand suggestion, Bluebonnet.

3 capsules of Swanson brand egg yolk lecithin. You do not want anything called "lecithin," it must be "egg yolk lecithin." I recommend Swanson brand as it has twice the acetylcholine as does the only other brand of egg yolk lecithin, Nature's Plus. Anything else labeled "lecithin" is soy-based.

You may need to add some water to get everything to mix up evenly. It's also a good idea to put the dry ingredients into a jar, shake it up so they're mixed well, and then add them to the ground food - add the dry supplements AFTER the food is cooked.

IMPORTANT Note: If using with cooked proteins, cook the meat and liver first. Use ALL of the pan drippings or water used for poaching/braising as it contains valuable nutrients. Add supplements AFTER cooling.

Call around to butchers to see if anyone carries or can order rabbit. Or search for local farmers, here: http://www.eatwild.com

Make the food, pick one protein to start with. Use 1/8th teaspoons to measure out, freeze it on wax paper, and dump the little frozen food balls in a bag and store in the freezer. Use ONE at each meal you feed Krissy, as you work on the transition to timed meals.


3) As you work on the transition to timed meals, work on the transition to the homemade food. At her dry food meals, put the 1/8th teaspoon of homecooked food (after thawing it) in the same dish as the dry food fed a meal time. If she won't eat the dry food with the homecooked food in there, put it on a plate next to the dry food dish. Coat the homemade food with something - Fortiflora? Freeze dried lamb liver? Freeze dried turkey? Something that is NOT crushed kibble, but you'll have to experiment with plain, healthy treats she likes. Or use Fortiflora.

Read through this thread, look for Carolina's posts only, and follow Lucky, her kibble addict: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/239771/...lucky-bugsy-and-hope-to-raw-challenges-galore


4) Start her on a probiotic. I suggest Nexabiotic. As I said, I order it on amazon. Start with a tiny pinch. Will she eat turkey babyfood? ANYTHING wet at all? If so, use a dab of that as the base. If you find a freeze dried meat treat she likes, use a pinch of that, add water to it, and put the probiotic on that. Work up to 1/2 a capsule, twice a day (am and pm).


5) Do you have a crock pot? If so, make bone broth. You can also make it on the stove. Just turn it off overnight, and start again in the morning. If you need to do that, make it boil for 10 minutes, then turn it back down to the low simmer when you start it up again. Buy bone-in pork ribs or something, since you don't want to use chicken. It will take longer as the bones are larger, but follow the recipe: http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2013/12/02/pet-bone-broth.aspx Given these will be larger bones, they won't turn to mush. But after 24 - 48 hours, the vinegar should have leeched a lot of the collagen out of the bone. Pour into ice cube trays and freeze. If she doesn't like it, you can either syringe it, or forget giving it to her and use it yourself for a soup base.


6) Go to a local health food store and buy loose slippery elm bark powder. Or order NOW brand loose powder from an online store like amazon. Make the "syrup." One tablespoon of powder per cup of water. Nuke for 30 seconds. Stir. Nuke for another 30 seconds, stir. Nuke for 4 or 5 minutes on 50% power, taking out every 30 - 45 seconds to stir (or it will boil over). Let it cool. It will thicken. Store in fridge. Give her one teaspoon two to three times a day. If she won't eat it, try adding a little water to thin it out and sprinkle fortiflora or whatever freeze dried treat you've found she likes. If there isn't one, and fortiflora doesn't do the trick, syringe it into her.

Worry about introducing new proteins once she's actually eating the homemade food. This can be weeks or months or years.


If you want to try some of the commercial raw or any of the canned foods tried by others, that's fine, of course. I'd go for high protein, short ingredient lists, and as few thickeners as possible. I'd try to avoid carrageenan, but some cats are just fine with it in small amounts. I would not make a food that has carrageenan a sole source of food. But all of the other steps would remain the same.


If she still seems nauseous (drinking a lot of water is a sign of nausea, for instance), then consider adding cerenia (prescription) and/or pepcid a/c (1/4 to 1/2 of a 10mg pill 2x a day) OR ranitidine (Zantac - 1/8th of a 75mg pill 2x a day).