Why can't Sebastian handle homemade food?

[geely]

Oh I am so sorry your kitty is suffering with these issues Just a thought ,I notice there is no fiber in the home made recipe  which might be ok for most cats but might help for cats  with issues. .Have you considered adding a little fiber such as pumpkin to the recipe ?My cat Beau has GI tract issues too and has the opposite problem constipation, so I use a little bit of it in my raw or homemade recipes, as most commercials have some type of fiber in them. Its is suppose to help bind the fecal matter and therefore helps with diarrhea or  constipation. I usually give him just a little maybe teaspoon each meal or at least once a day.  Surprising though, unlike you cat his GI issues have improved since I switched to raw and home made.  He used to throw up a lot and  shed more and just was not happy. He would wine when he had a BM and sometime there was diarrhea coming out too with the constipated matter.  All that has improved now. I do have to manage his constipation, though. I guess he is sensitive.

 

[mschauer]

OK, the Deserving Pets product looks pretty good. It is obviously meant to be used with a calcium source however. I added eggshell for that.

Their instructions say to use 1 scoop (1.3 g) per day. For the recipe analysis I assumed 6 oz would be fed per day. So the recipe provides a total of 16 days of food. That would be 1.3 g * 16 = 20.8 g total of the supplement needed for the whole recipe.

I wouldn't be concerned about the iodine, copper and manganese being a bit low since you will on;y be using the supplement for a relatively short time. I'm not sure they should be considered a concern even long term.

 

 

[goholistic]

Aw, @mschauer. You're so awesome. I was not expecting you to analyze it, so thank you. 

  I don't mind adding the additional supplements that I was adding before (B-complex, Morton light salt, manganese, Vitamin E, etc.) if you think they would make it more complete with Deserving Pets Feline Everyday Essentials (FEE) without oversupplementing.

I had a few more email exchanges with the person at Deserving Pets (essentially a vet's office) and he/she even relayed some of my questions back to the vet that developed the supplement. For what I am using the supplement for, they actually recommend their other product called Vital Vities because "it contains all the fruits and veggies". I guess some vets think that cats benefit from some fruits and veggies. I compared Vital Vities and Feline Everyday Essentials side-by-side and most of the essential vitamins and minerals are the same. Vital Vities has more calcium, but no iron, and, of course, the fruit and veggie powders. It is more money for less product, so I'm inclined to stick with Feline Everyday Essentials if it doesn't make that much of a difference.

Also, I still plan to try the freeze-dried liver (tiny amount!) after said two weeks. I do have PureBites freeze-dried beef liver at home and after doing the fresh to freeze-dried calculations and weighing out what Sebastian would get daily, it still seems like a lot. I'm just not feeling very confident that the freeze-dried will work, either, so having a supplement like FEE in the mix in the short term (or even long term?) makes me feel better about him getting his nutrients.

 

[mschauer]

 
Aw, @mschauer. You're so awesome. I was not expecting you to analyze it, so thank you. 

  I don't mind adding the additional supplements that I was adding before (B-complex, Morton light salt, manganese, Vitamin E, etc.) if you think they would make it more complete with Deserving Pets Feline Everyday Essentials (FEE) without oversupplementing.

Well, I wouldn't know what to say about it unless I analyzed a recipe with it to see what affect the supplement has.

You could add 3/4 tsp of Morton lite salt to get the iodine up. 

I don't remember, is fish oil one of the things Sebastian has a problem with? If you that recipe long term it would be nice to add a source of omega 3s.

Other than those 2 things I wouldn't bother with adding anything else even if the recipe is used long term.

 

[goholistic]

 
Well, I wouldn't know what to say about it unless I analyzed a recipe with it to see what affect the supplement has.

You could add 3/4 tsp of Morton lite salt to get the iodine up. 

I don't remember, is fish oil one of the things Sebastian has a problem with? If you that recipe long term it would be nice to add a source of omega 3s.

Other than those 2 things I wouldn't bother with adding anything else even if the recipe is used long term.

I'm glad it passed the test...for the most part! After we see how things end up with the liver, the FEE has the potential to be a permanent solution (maybe?) for all our protein rotations without having to mess around with individual supplements to make up for what's lost from omitting liver and eggs. 

  I wish he wasn't so sensitive and that I could feel all kinds of parts and organs without issue. I'm still trying.

3/4 tsp of Morton lite salt is 4.2 grams, correct?

Sebastian does get an omega-3 fish oil added at mealtimes. It ends up being 296 mg fish oil daily (184 mg of EPA and 112 mg of DHA). Does that sound okay?

 

[goholistic]

 
Oh I am so sorry your kitty is suffering with these issues Just a thought ,I notice there is no fiber in the home made recipe  which might be ok for most cats but might help for cats  with issues. .Have you considered adding a little fiber such as pumpkin to the recipe ?My cat Beau has GI tract issues too and has the opposite problem constipation, so I use a little bit of it in my raw or homemade recipes, as most commercials have some type of fiber in them. Its is suppose to help bind the fecal matter and therefore helps with diarrhea or  constipation. I usually give him just a little maybe teaspoon each meal or at least once a day.  Surprising though, unlike you cat his GI issues have improved since I switched to raw and home made.  He used to throw up a lot and  shed more and just was not happy. He would wine when he had a BM and sometime there was diarrhea coming out too with the constipated matter.  All that has improved now. I do have to manage his constipation, though. I guess he is sensitive.

Sorry Geely. I almost missed your post. Thanks for the suggestion. I never really thought about adding fiber. Sebastian stools have been virtually perfect for almost the entire four years that I've had him, so this is all kind of new to us. Yes, I have read that most cats improve and diarrhea is eliminated on a homemade diet. That is why this is so frustrating. It seems, though, to be the trend that whatever works for other cats does not work for Sebastian!  

 

[goholistic]

Thought I would update. It's been 10 days on a "bland" diet. The first four days were baby food, followed by the beef recipe @mschauer so graciously posted using Deserving Pets Feline Everyday Essentials and the added lite salt to up the iodine. He is having no issues with that supplement. He's doing GREAT, which doesn't make me very motivated to rush back into trying the liver. 

  His stools are solid, a good color, smaller, and less frequent - not quite what a raw poop would be like, but definitely a marked improvement, which I hope is a sign that the food is more bioavailable to him. I suspect not much will change in that regard as we work towards the full two weeks. His appetite is fabulous and he's not meatloafing.

Thoughts on where to go from here? Should I keep trying to reach some goal if he's doing well? What are the implications of using Deserving Pets with his other protein rotations?

 

[abbyntim]

Wonderful news that Sebastian is tolerating this new recipe so well!

I lost track of some of the nutrient details, but if I recall you are wanting him to be able to eat even a small amount of liver because he would get the necessary nutrients from a natural source, rather than a synthetic supplement. But the FEE contains most of the nutrients he would require, and you need to add just lite salt and possibly omega-3 for long-term use.

If my understanding is correct, I would be very tempted to not mess with it, as Sebastian is doing well. But, if you're anything like me, you are probably also curious and want to see just what he can tolerate. I am in a similar situation with Tim, who does exceptionally well as long as I tightly control what he eats and not so well if I don't.

As far as reaching some kind of goal, I would say your primary goal is wanting Sebastian to feel good and be happy. Sub-goals could include various options for keeping him there. For example, you could work up recipes with his other proteins using the FEE. You could try other liver sources, starting in tiny amounts and working up to what he would normally require. You could try various sources of freeze dried liver. This would all take a long time, but then you'd potentially end up with multiple feeding options for him.

But, again, great news that he's doing so well with the FEE recipe!

 

[mschauer]

Originally Posted by GoHolistic  

3/4 tsp of Morton lite salt is 4.2 grams, correct?

Yup. If you look up again at the analysis I posted I've added the lite salt, manganese and salmon oil.

Also when I first posted the analysis I forgot to add the adjustments to the nutrient minimums needed to account for losses during cooking. The new analysis comes up slightly short of folic acid but not enough so to worry about in my opinion.

 Sebastian does get an omega-3 fish oil added at mealtimes. It ends up being 296 mg fish oil daily (184 mg of EPA and 112 mg of DHA). Does that sound okay?

The salmon oil I added to the analysis provides 108 mg or EPA and 151 mg of DHA per day assuming 6 oz of the food is fed per day. Your fish oil provides roughly the same amount of omega 3s so I'd say your OK in that department.

 
Thought I would update. It's been 10 days on a "bland" diet. The first four days were baby food, followed by the beef recipe @mschauer so graciously posted using Deserving Pets Feline Everyday Essentials and the added lite salt to up the iodine. He is having no issues with that supplement. He's doing GREAT, which doesn't make me very motivated to rush back into trying the liver. 

  His stools are solid, a good color, smaller, and less frequent - not quite what a raw poop would be like, but definitely a marked improvement, which I hope is a sign that the food is more bioavailable to him. I suspect not much will change in that regard as we work towards the full two weeks. His appetite is fabulous and he's not meatloafing.

That's great news!

 Thoughts on where to go from here? Should I keep trying to reach some goal if he's doing well?

How about trying eggs before liver? They're right up there with liver as a great source of nutrients.

  What are the implications of using Deserving Pets with his other protein rotations?

What other proteins do you want to use it with? I tried chicken and turkey dark meat. The iron comes out a bit low with them. Iron is one of the important nutrients liver provides but which beef muscle meat has in sufficient quantities.

 

[goholistic]

 
Wonderful news that Sebastian is tolerating this new recipe so well!

I lost track of some of the nutrient details, but if I recall you are wanting him to be able to eat even a small amount of liver because he would get the necessary nutrients from a natural source, rather than a synthetic supplement. But the FEE contains most of the nutrients he would require, and you need to add just lite salt and possibly omega-3 for long-term use.

If my understanding is correct, I would be very tempted to not mess with it, as Sebastian is doing well. But, if you're anything like me, you are probably also curious and want to see just what he can tolerate. I am in a similar situation with Tim, who does exceptionally well as long as I tightly control what he eats and not so well if I don't.

As far as reaching some kind of goal, I would say your primary goal is wanting Sebastian to feel good and be happy. Sub-goals could include various options for keeping him there. For example, you could work up recipes with his other proteins using the FEE. You could try other liver sources, starting in tiny amounts and working up to what he would normally require. You could try various sources of freeze dried liver. This would all take a long time, but then you'd potentially end up with multiple feeding options for him.

But, again, great news that he's doing so well with the FEE recipe!

Thanks! Well, I understand that it is best for them to get their nutrients from natural sources, and I am trying to find what works for Sebastian. In doing so, I also want to keep him happy and feeling good. And, yes, that is my ultimate goal. I really don't want to keep messing with different things and testing his body for [in]tolerances, but I'm doing what I can and trying to find a balance. It's so discouraging when he doesn't react well to something, and the last time I found myself saying,"I'm so sorry I keep pushing you, buddy."  

 
Yup. If you look up again at the analysis I posted I've added the lite salt, manganese and salmon oil.

Also when I first posted the analysis I forgot to add the adjustments to the nutrient minimums needed to account for losses during cooking. The new analysis comes up slightly short of folic acid but not enough so to worry about in my opinion.

Awesome - thanks so much! I did have to make another batch of beef today, so I used your new recipe. Except I am adding the FEE at feeding time. I hope that's okay.

How about trying eggs before liver? They're right up there with liver as a great source of nutrients.

I can try eggs. Would it help with some of the nutrients that are coming up a bit low? Would I scramble a whole egg and add a tiny amount at feeding time? What is the maximum amount per day?

 
What other proteins do you want to use it with? I tried chicken and turkey dark meat. The iron comes out a bit low with them. Iron is one of the important nutrients liver provides but which beef muscle meat has in sufficient quantities.

Pork, rabbit, and turkey thighs are in his rotation, as well as duck. I had wanted to do a duck breast recipe, and I have a source locally, but it's SO expensive. I could maybe feed it for a shorter time (one week). He's been on beef for a month now. He's being a good sport about it, but I think he's ready for something different.

Realistically, I don't see us being able to work up to the full amount of liver (in any form) that is required in the original recipe in the Cooked Recipes thread. In the future, he may be able to tolerate a few treats of freeze-dried liver a week, but I really don't think he could handle what is needed on a daily basis to make the recipe complete. I already measured out how much freeze-dried beef I would need daily since I have it at home, and it was quite a bit. I couldn't imagine giving him that much on a daily basis and him not reacting to it. I know I'm making assumptions here, but they are based on careful observation, meticulous note-taking, and what painstaking details I know of this cat up until this point.

I was hoping something like FEE would be enough of a well-rounded supplement to use with other proteins, but the low iron is a concern. Would eggs help with that? How about clams in the recipes where iron is low? I think they're high[er] in iron. I can get no-salt canned clams and maybe frozen clams locally.  He hasn't had any seafood, either, so that would also be a new introduction. 

 

[mschauer]

Awesome - thanks so much! I did have to make another batch of beef today, so I used your new recipe. Except I am adding the FEE at feeding time. I hope that's okay.

Sure, adding the FEE at feeding time is just fine.

 
I can try eggs. Would it help with some of the nutrients that are coming up a bit low? Would I scramble a whole egg and add a tiny amount at feeding time? What is the maximum amount per day?

Eggs are a great natural source of B vitamins, choline and vitamin D and vitamin A. They won't help with iron though. Adding 3 whole, scrambled eggs to the recipe would get the folic acid up to a bit over the minimum recommended.

 
Pork, rabbit, and turkey thighs are in his rotation, as well as duck. I had wanted to do a duck breast recipe, and I have a source locally, but it's SO expensive. I could maybe feed it for a shorter time (one week). He's been on beef for a month now. He's being a good sport about it, but I think he's ready for something different.

The USDA database doesn't have enough data for a useful analysis of a rabbit recipe.  Duck works well. Very high in iron and folic acid. Pork is pretty low in iron.

 I was hoping something like FEE would be enough of a well-rounded supplement to use with other proteins, but the low iron is a concern. Would eggs help with that? How about clams in the recipes where iron is low? I think they're high[er] in iron. I can get no-salt canned clams  and maybe frozen clams locally.  He hasn't had any seafood, either, so that would also be a new introduction.  

No clams don't have enough iron to help. If you fed a diet of 1/2 beef and 1/2 turkey or chicken the beef has enough iron to make up for what the poultry doesn't have.  You don't have to actually combine beef and turkey or chicken in one recipe. Maybe feed beef one meal a day and turkey or chicken the other meal (assuming 2 meals a day). 

 

[goholistic]

Thanks for looking into it. Okay, so FEE works with only beef and duck as single proteins. Hmm.....I suppose if I want to feed other single proteins and have it be balanced, then I'll have to continue trying to work liver into his diet for the original recipes. I think I'm going to purchase Dr. Ron's liver supplement and cross my fingers. I think he'll react to that, too, but I won't know until I try. 

  If he does, then I'm really at a loss. 

Also, I was previously using Twinlab manganese (manganese gluconate), but would like to switch to Bluebonnet (manganese bisglycinate chelate). They are both chelated. Does it matter that they are different types?

 

[mschauer]

Also, I was previously using Twinlab manganese (manganese gluconate), but would like to switch to Bluebonnet (manganese bisglycinate chelate). They are both chelated. Does it matter that they are different types?

I don't know of any difference. You might do some research to find out if one form might be more bioavailable than the other.

 

[goholistic]

 
I don't know of any difference. You might do some research to find out if one form might be more bioavailable than the other.

I couldn't really find anything, except that manganese bisglycinate chelate is patented under a specific brand name (TRAACS[emoji]174[/emoji] by Albion Human Nutrition). 

So I have purchased turkey thigh cubes from Hare Today (which I'll make this weekend) and Dr. Ron's beef liver capsules.

@mschauer, if I want to make the original Cooked Turkey Dinner, but account for using beef liver instead of turkey liver, would the amount still be the same (6 oz.)? I'm going to omit the eggs and liver again, but would like to do the calculations to see how many liver capsules I would need for the recipe and then figure out how much that is per day. Obviously, I'm only going to start out with a light dusting! 

P.S. Dr. Ron's claims that six capsules provide the equivalent of 1 oz. of fresh, raw beef liver. That makes it easy for me! 

 

[mschauer]

@mschauer, if I want to make the original Cooked Turkey Dinner, but account for using beef liver instead of turkey liver, would the amount still be the same (6 oz.)? I'm going to omit the eggs and liver again, but would like to do the calculations to see how many liver capsules I would need for the recipe and then figure out how much that is per day. Obviously, I'm only going to start out with a light dusting! 

Yup, you can use an equal amount of beef liver in place of the turkey liver.