Why can't Sebastian handle homemade food?

[goholistic]

Why can't Sebastian handle homemade food? Raw or cooked?

Quick background for those who don't know: Sebastian has chronic pancreatitis and was / is on a diet of 70% premium canned and 30% home-cooked supplemented with Balance It. He seemed to do pretty well on this most of the time. We tried raw previously on several different attempts and he got very ill due to his compromised GI tract. But, also, any time I tried to increase the home-cooked, he seemed not to do as well either, no matter how slow I went. So I kept it at 30%. I figured the supplement was the problem since it was only meat and Balance It (couldn't imagine a bad reaction to cooked meat). With me thinking it was Balance It that was the problem, I decided to get some help with some home-cooked recipes and adding individual supplements myself. That thread is here. I also figured that perhaps he would do well on a 100% home-cooked diet and started transitioning him off canned food.

I made the turkey recipe exactly as stated, except I omitted the egg (didn't want to introduce another protein just yet). I ended up buying the ground turkey thighs from Hare Today to save me time. I cooked it in the oven for 1.5 hours. He ate it Saturday night and Sunday morning, although he didn't seem as thrilled with the use of the ground turkey vs. the turkey thigh cubes I bought in the past.

By Sunday night (24 hours later), he refused everything and went to hide under the bed. This was followed by vomiting and thin, watery diarrhea all night long. Needless to say, I didn't get any sleep.

Why is this happening? I'm so frustrated and upset. It's just cooked turkey thighs and cooked turkey liver with supplements. Could it be the liver? Nothing else changed. He's just as sick now as he was when he got sick on raw. He's not eating, extremely nauseous, lethargic, and I may have to take him in for hospitalization.

I also want to say that Sebastian is a very "special" kitty and he seems to have severe reactions to things that other cats do not. This thread is not meant to scare anyone away from homemade diet. This kind of reaction to home-cooked is likely pretty rare.

 

[mschauer]

I'm sorry poor Sebastian is having such a tough time. 

Since he has recurring pancreatitis is he getting a digestive enzyme supplement? I know next to nothing about the disease but was under the impression that such a supplement would be needed but a quick skim of one of your old posts didn't say anything about them.

You said he did well "most of the time" on a 70% premium canned and 30% cooked diet. So does that mean you are looking at  changing his diet because you want to to do well all of the time rather than just most of the time? 

How does he do on a 100% premium canned diet?

Did you ever try a novel protein diet?

 

[abbyntim]

I am sorry to read this about Sebastian.

Have you looked at fat content?

Most cats, I think, do well on fairly high fat food. Others cannot tolerate so much fat. I think my Tim is one of those cats. When I was feeding Nature's Variety Instinct canned exclusively, they changed the formula to make an already high-fat food even higher fat. The label didn't change, but the food became more "juicy" (fat). I learned the hard way and had to drain off some of the juice before I could feed it to Tim.

Turkey thigh is a bit higher in fat than, say, turkey breast. Have you tried turkey breast? Or maybe drain off some of the fat from the ground turkey thigh? Maybe he cannot tolerate much fat. This is something our holistic vet told us happens on occasion, though it's kind of rare. This seems to be the case with Tim, though we're gradually trying to increase his raw fat to see how he does.

Meanwhile, sending positive vibes for Sebastian and for you!!

 

[goholistic]

Since he has recurring pancreatitis is he getting a digestive enzyme supplement?

Yes, he is on digestive enzymes. This is a recent addition since August.

You said he did well "most of the time" on a 70% premium canned and 30% cooked diet. So does that mean you are looking at  changing his diet because you want to to do well all of the time rather than just most of the time? 

Yes, pretty much. I really don't think a better diet will cure him, but I was certainly hoping it would help.   

  Also, some of the canned foods are higher in fat, which I think he is becoming more sensitive to. So I wanted more control over fat content. And, basically, I just figured he'd do better on a home-cooked diet. If commercial canned and home-cooked are both cooked, why wouldn't he do better on something freshly prepared? I just don't understand it.

 
How does he do on a 100% premium canned diet?

Did you ever try a novel protein diet?

I think he did okay. He was on canned only early this year and it was a novel protein diet (rabbit). But he started refusing it after 5 months of the same thing every day. That's when I started introducing the home-cooked for a little variety and I started with rabbit. Within the past year, we basically went from commercial dry and canned to commercial canned only to commercial canned and home-cooked. Here's his "menu" of foods that he has been on since late February: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/274500/best-rotation-to-prevent-food-allergies/60#post_3572252. The only change is that I don't give him the Nature's Variety pork anymore because it made him itchy. He only gets the Lotus Just Juicy pork during his pork rotation. He did very well with this rotation for almost six months without a flare. In mid-August, he flared up. There may have been several contributing factors. He was on his beef rotation at the time. And my observation over the last two months is that he is more sensitive to fat in his diet. He is also allergic to guar gum.

Have you looked at fat content?
Most cats, I think, do well on fairly high fat food. Others cannot tolerate so much fat. I think my Tim is one of those cats. When I was feeding Nature's Variety Instinct canned exclusively, they changed the formula to make an already high-fat food even higher fat. The label didn't change, but the food became more "juicy" (fat). I learned the hard way and had to drain off some of the juice before I could feed it to Tim.

Turkey thigh is a bit higher in fat than, say, turkey breast. Have you tried turkey breast? Or maybe drain off some of the fat from the ground turkey thigh? Maybe he cannot tolerate much fat. This is something our holistic vet told us happens on occasion, though it's kind of rare. This seems to be the case with Tim, though we're gradually trying to increase his raw fat to see how he does.

Meanwhile, sending positive vibes for Sebastian and for you!!

Yes, it seems he is becoming more sensitive to fat, but this home-cooked turkey recipe was a good percentage for him. I could also tell when making it that it wasn't greasy or fatty compared to other products I've worked with (like the ground duck).

I noticed the same thing with Nature's Variety Instinct canned! When we were transitioning from his pork rotation to his turkey rotation, he got a tummy ache on Nature's Variety LID Turkey canned. It has 30% fat DMB. I had to stop after two days and revert back to to the Lotus Just Juicy Pork Stew (which is very low fat) until I could find another turkey canned food lower in fat and without guar gum (nearly impossible). I tried the Lotus Just Juicy Turkey Stew and he hates it. I was shocked.

So I had no turkey canned food to give him that met our criteria, and that is what brought to making it from scratch.

 

[goholistic]

Btw, the diarrhea is so bad it is just leaking out everywhere. He has long hair, so I finally had to put him in the tub to clean him off, and I laid towels down where he likes to sleep. He's only had diarrhea this bad...let me think...three times since I've adopted him in 2010. Once was when I fed him a By Nature canned food shortly after adopting him. Second was when I put him on a home-made raw diet. And now this.  

  

ETA: For those concerned about dehydration, he's been given fluids at home (he gets them every other day for his pancreatitis) and all the necessary "feel better" medicines, which our vet so graciously provides. If the diarrhea has not resolved (or at least improved) by the time I get home from work tonight, I am calling the vet. She may want me to pick up some Proviable paste. I have discontinued giving him the homemade turkey food.

 

[mschauer]

What does your vet say about food and pancreatitis? 

I'm wondering if he is just having a flare up that is coincidental with the food change. Very coincidental I know but looking at foods he has been eating since Feb he has been getting quite a variety. I don't know why just giving him more home-made cooked would cause the problems you are seeing.

 

 

[goholistic]

I had a feeling someone would say that. He is not one of those cats with a history of chronic diarrhea or else I would agree. But almost six months of the same rotation and no diarrhea until this change. 

  And, like I said, he did very well during that time. My only thought is that perhaps the fresh liver is too rich for him. 

Our regular vet (traditional) wants him on the Royal Canin pea and rabbit food all the time. Our Traditional Chinese Medicine vet is the one who suggested the rotation and those particular proteins (cooling proteins).

 

[abbyntim]

 
Btw, the diarrhea is so bad it is just leaking out everywhere. He has long hair, so I finally had to put him in the tub to clean him off, and I laid towels down where he likes to sleep. He's only had diarrhea this bad...let me think...three times since I've adopted him in 2010. Once was when I fed him a By Nature canned food shortly after adopting him. Second was when I put him on a home-made raw diet. And now this.  

  

ETA: For those concerned about dehydration, he's been given fluids at home (he gets them every other day for his pancreatitis) and all the necessary "feel better" medicines, which our vet so graciously provides. If the diarrhea has not resolved (or at least improved) by the time I get home from work tonight, I am calling the vet. She may want me to pick up some Proviable paste. I have discontinued giving him the homemade turkey food.

Hmmmmm, poor Sebastian. Tim's had a couple of really bad bouts of diarrhea that seemed to be related to too much fat. It's awful, isn't it? I am glad that he is continuing to get fluids and other supportive things. I hope he's feeling better by the time you get home from work.

I just noticed you fed Sebastian home-made raw. Have you tried a simple commercial raw? Tim is doing exceptionally well on Rad Cat raw turkey, plus he loves it. It is a very simple recipe and fairly lean, and they use ground egg shell for calcium. The only potential draw-back is that it includes eggs, which might not work for Sebastian. But they make 1 ounce sample size containers; maybe you can find a sample and try.

 

[goholistic]

 
Hmmmmm, poor Sebastian. Tim's had a couple of really bad bouts of diarrhea that seemed to be related to too much fat. It's awful, isn't it? I am glad that he is continuing to get fluids and other supportive things. I hope he's feeling better by the time you get home from work.

I just noticed you fed Sebastian home-made raw. Have you tried a simple commercial raw? Tim is doing exceptionally well on Rad Cat raw turkey, plus he loves it. It is a very simple recipe and fairly lean, and they use ground egg shell for calcium. The only potential draw-back is that it includes eggs, which might not work for Sebastian. But they make 1 ounce sample size containers; maybe you can find a sample and try.

Yes, I have tried commercial raw as well. With those, he never got full blown diarrhea, but after a couple days, he'd stop eating. He wouldn't touch anything, acted like he didn't feel well, and sat in a corner facing the wall. I would discontinue before he got any worse. I followed your transitioning thread for Tim, and your experience is what it should be like. Sebastian's pancreas is one angry organ, I guess.  

  I don't know what the answer is. I just wish I was able to do this and have it go well.

 

[zoneout]

Hi. Is there a possibility something else changed besides the food. Any different meds? I am just drawing a blank on the cooked turkey. Makes no sense why that would cause bad diahrea. Gee, I wish I had an answer for you.

 

[zoneout]

I went back and reread. What I would suggest if you have another go at it is to keep it as simple as possible. Like just maybe use the turkey and nothing else. If that goes well then add the other ingredients in later batches. This way if he has a reaction it will likely be to whatever was added last.

 

[catwoman707]

Aww! So sorry you and Sebastian have to go through all these changes, again. 

As you know from helping me through my issue with Krissy and all the frustration I feel (still at this verh moment, I will update in her thread) but despite all the lack of knowledge and experience with the illness, as I was reading through this thread the liver struck me as the possible culprit.......

You wouldn't think, but seeing as it IS  a liver, perhaps that's what caused all this latest drama with him. (?) Maybe so?

 

[lcat4]

I'm very sorry Sebastian's having a tough time.

A couple things...based on the USDA nutrient list, turkey liver is higher in Vit A than chicken liver. I realize there are lots of reasons beyond vit a to feed liver to a cat, but Mscauer's recipe as written calls for about 7% liver, with the vit a being significantly higher than aafco requires. With Mschauer's blessing, I think you could safely cut that back a bit, with a slight adjustment to the eggshell. Perhaps that would make it less rich for Sebastian. My cat Clark was at a point where he wasn't eating or tolerating liver, and when we reduced his liver down to closer to 3%, the recipe still met Aafco. Maybe not something you want to do forever, but perhaps through the transition.

Second, I generally don't give my cats fish oil. First, most of mine don't like it and they know it's there. Second, I try to buy free range meats that have a lower Omega 6 profile, so the need to add the fish oil for the Omega 3 benefit is not as necessary. The fish oil will add a good amount of fat to your meat. I don't buy from Haretoday, but I assume their meat is free range if from local farmers.

Anyway, things to think about...

 

[goholistic]

Thanks for the responses, all. 

Hi. Is there a possibility something else changed besides the food. Any different meds? I am just drawing a blank on the cooked turkey. Makes no sense why that would cause bad diahrea. Gee, I wish I had an answer for you.

Nothing else changed. Nothing new. Because of how he is, I am extremely careful about only changing one thing at a time. His most recent additions started back in August and I haven't done anything new since.

I went back and reread. What I would suggest if you have another go at it is to keep it as simple as possible. Like just maybe use the turkey and nothing else. If that goes well then add the other ingredients in later batches. This way if he has a reaction it will likely be to whatever was added last.

I know he can handle cooked turkey meat (breast, thigh) just fine. Cooked turkey thighs supplemented with Balance It has been in his rotation since February/March. 

  That is why I think it might be the liver upsetting him. He's never had fresh liver like that before. Which makes me wonder if the liver is what bothered him when we tried raw. Hmm... 

 
Aww! So sorry you and Sebastian have to go through all these changes, again. 

As you know from helping me through my issue with Krissy and all the frustration I feel (still at this verh moment, I will update in her thread) but despite all the lack of knowledge and experience with the illness, as I was reading through this thread the liver struck me as the possible culprit.......

You wouldn't think, but seeing as it IS  a liver, perhaps that's what caused all this latest drama with him. (?) Maybe so?

Well, I think this might be my last attempt. 

  He's already vulnerable to flares of his pancreatitis, and I just can't have him having diarrhea like this. My mom keeps yelling at me every time I try to change his diet. 

  I'll check your thread. I don't remember what you gave Krissy that had liver in it.

I'm very sorry Sebastian's having a tough time.

A couple things...based on the USDA nutrient list, turkey liver is higher in Vit A than chicken liver. I realize there are lots of reasons beyond vit a to feed liver to a cat, but Mscauer's recipe as written calls for about 7% liver, with the vit a being significantly higher than aafco requires. With Mschauer's blessing, I think you could safely cut that back a bit, with a slight adjustment to the eggshell. Perhaps that would make it less rich for Sebastian. My cat Clark

was at a point where he wasn't eating or tolerating liver, and when we reduced his liver down to closer to 3%, the recipe still met Aafco. Maybe not something you want to do forever, but perhaps through the transition.

Second, I generally don't give my cats fish oil. First, most of mine don't like it and they know it's there. Second, I try to buy free range meats that have a lower Omega 6 profile, so the need to add the fish oil for the Omega 3 benefit is not as necessary. The fish oil will add a good amount of fat to your meat. I don't buy from Haretoday, but I assume their meat is free range if from local farmers.

Anyway, things to think about...

Good ideas. Definitely some things to think about. As I hope people would understand, it would take me a bit of a break and a lot of courage to try again. My boy is really having a hard time with this diarrhea.

If liver is a necessary ingredient in homemade diets, what does one do with a cat that can't tolerate liver? 

 

[zoneout]

Is liver necessary? I don't think so. There are probably substitutes for whatever nutrients it provides.

 

[mschauer]

I'm very sorry Sebastian's having a tough time.

A couple things...based on the USDA nutrient list, turkey liver is higher in Vit A than chicken liver. I realize there are lots of reasons beyond vit a to feed liver to a cat, but Mscauer's recipe as written calls for about 7% liver, with the vit a being significantly higher than aafco requires. With Mschauer's blessing, I think you could safely cut that back a bit, with a slight adjustment to the eggshell. Perhaps that would make it less rich for Sebastian. My cat Clark

was at a point where he wasn't eating or tolerating liver, and when we reduced his liver down to closer to 3%, the recipe still met Aafco. Maybe not something you want to do forever, but perhaps through the transition.

Second, I generally don't give my cats fish oil. First, most of mine don't like it and they know it's there. Second, I try to buy free range meats that have a lower Omega 6 profile, so the need to add the fish oil for the Omega 3 benefit is not as necessary. The fish oil will add a good amount of fat to your meat. I don't buy from Haretoday, but I assume their meat is free range if from local farmers.

Anyway, things to think about...

Good ideas. Definitely some things to think about. As I hope people would understand, it would take me a bit of a break and a lot of courage to try again. My boy is really having a hard time with this diarrhea.

If liver is a necessary ingredient in homemade diets, what does one do with a cat that can't tolerate liver? 

You can always keep the liver separate and add it at feeding time. That way you can tell if it is the liver that is bothering him. Maybe adding it in tiny amounts and slowly increasing the amounts over time would help him adjust to it. I don't know what it is about liver that bothers some cats but I've seen several posts where people believe their cats can't tolerate it.

Liver is rich in a lot of nutrients other than vit A. Iron is an important one. But more importantly than what nutrients it provides is how they are being provided.One of the huge advantages of making our own cat foods, cooked or raw, is that we can formulate them so that more nutrients are coming from natural sources like organs rather then out of a bottle. Studies have shown that consuming nutrients in their natural form and with the other nutrients that they naturally would be consumed with can result in the nutrients being better absorbed and utilized. That's why it is believed that the more organs we can provide in the approximate proportion they would be naturally consumed the better the diet. 

My recipes would include organs other than liver if it weren't that I know some people don't have access to them. I want the recipes to be as useful as possible to as many people as possible so I usually only include liver which most people seem to be able to get. I think it is important to include if it is available along with as many other organs as possible.

BUT, if consuming liver causes diarrhea I would be the first to say don't feed it. A diet consisting of nothing but home cooked meat with supplements would still, in my opinion, be healthier than most if not all commercial processed foods.

 

[zoneout]

The thing to remember about liver is that it's function is to filter the blood. Therefore it could contain high levels of undesirable chemicals that the host animal was exposed to. Yes, chances are better it is clean if you source organic but it is no guarantee.

 

[mschauer]

The thing to remember about liver is that it's function is to filter the blood. Therefore it could contain high levels of undesirable chemicals that the host animal was exposed to.

 The liver is often described as an organ that "filters" your blood of toxins, which may seem concerning in terms of eating it. In reality, laboratory analysis has proven that liver is actually completely safe for consumption and has no higher concentration of toxins than the rest of the body. This is due to the fact that your liver is not really a "filter," but more of a chemical processing plant, rendering toxins inert and shuttling them out of your body. If your liver contains large amounts of toxins, so do you! And the same goes for the animals you consume.

I found numerous sources that say the same thing. I would prefer a more academic or scientific source but I also didn't find anything that supports the claim that liver contains any higher level of contaminants than any other part of the body.

 

[zoneout]

It is something I learned years ago - can't remember where it was imparted from. But either way seems Sebastian might be reacting to it.

 

[claud]

You mean have more natural type pieces off of the breast?

How would you cook that? Could you cook it in a slow cooker or slow cook it in the oven?

I think liver is quite high in fat, though it is nutritious.