Took in a Pregnant Stray

eb24

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We have a new problem.  Now mom is moving them into her littler box.  We have Arm & Hammer fragrance free clumping litter.  I will go out and get that cat pine stuff today, but that is what we have right now and I worry about them in there.  Not to mention she has to have somewhere to go to the bathroom.  I tried to move them back once but mom wasn't having that, so I let her be.  My boyfriend is insistent on moving them but I don't know - she just keeps moving them back and I don't want her to get frustrated but it can't be good for them in there.  But she tends to leave one or two behind.  One was screaming for a while during this and noticed he had some poop sticking out a tiny bit, and mom wasn't helping (I gave it maybe 15 minutes) so I stepped in and helped.  I know I should probably just let mom do her thing but I couldn't stand the screaming.  I have such a weak stomach when it comes to this kind of stuff.  I was very close to vomiting and I haven't since I was a little kid (and I've even had the stomach flu not too long ago - that wasn't fun)! Update: We just put in a clean blanket and moved the kittens to the box just to change out the litter to the kitty pine, and one of them had liquid poop literally squirt out while mom was eating.  The one I helped earlier looked very mushy but not complete liquid.  I just don't know what is normal.  It is the same two kitten (#2 and 3) that I have been seeing poop, and I keep forgetting which is which but one might be worse than the other with much more liquid.

And I totally understand just having faith in it.. it is just so hard for me.  I'm not one to believe in luck, but my life has this horrible tendency of messing up pretty much everything I get excited over (wow that sounded emo.. I don't mean it to be), so I am just so worried something will go wrong and it will crush me since that is what I have learned to expect.  If it is something that I could have prevented it will stay with me for a long time - I am bad at letting guilt go.  I understand why she is moving them but I can't have them on my bed since they are very good and crawling around, and I really don't want them in the litter box and I don't know how to get her happy with other spots and I don't want to upset her and then I just get stressed.  And I also don't know how good of health Kaylee is in so that worries me since she just doesn't seem to have much energy and she has sort of a "help me" look in her eyes all the time (that is probably me just being insane though).  She looks like she has been through a lot.  All I really know is she doesn't have leukemia or FIV and her stool sample was good.  But thank you for trying to bring me back down to Earth - you are right and I will really try to listen.  I guess I am way more of a control freak than I thought I was. Control freak + paranoid = one stressed out, insane chick.
I know. It is so scary when all this is happening and you don't know how to fix it. The fear of screwing up and then something terrible happening is a heady feeling. I am as control freaky as you so I know exactly how you are feeling. I'm sure Kaylee is partially picking up on your anxiety, and that is making her more anxious too. 

So, here's some things I would try. This one I have never done but I have heard it works for other people. If you have a bottom dresser drawer you can clean out do and line it with towels on blankets. Then, move the babies into there and Kaylee should follow. Close the dresser drawer most of the way, leaving enough room for Kaylee to climb in and out. In theory this will be a cozy den and make her feel more comforted. 

If that's not an option, I would maybe try for 24 hours just closing her in the closet. For this period, I would minimize checking in on her and let her sort herself out and find out what makes her comfortable. If she's insistent on being in the litterbox, go buy a second one that she can use to go to the bathroom in. Maybe set some blankets and towels around so she has different options of where to nest. If possible, try to find something covered (even a cardboard box turned on it's side with blankets or towels in it may give her the comfort she needs). If you have the money, a covered cat bed from the petstore works really well. This time will be stressful for you, but just commit to 24 hours and see what happens.  Really, for her at this point being confined may be best, as it gives her limited options on where to nest. She may be feeling like she has too many choices right now and can't decide what is the best place. She may just need some quiet time to calm down and reestablish her routine. If in that time she doesn't than, as Clynn said, it may be time for you to step in and help with eliminating and supplemental feeding. That said, I am a big fan of trying to let Mom sort it out, because once you intervene there is no going back. It should only be done if absolutely necessary. I spent my first litter terrified and intervening on everything, I calmed down with later litters and realized a lot of the time Mom is capable, I just needed to give her a chance to get there. 

I agree with Clynn that the den moves aren't good for her or her babies. My point was rather that in an environment like yours (and mine), where she can't be totally isolated they are more common, and it is up to you to try and give her acceptable places to nest. Hopefully if that happens she will settle down. 

Finally, I think you may need to bite the financial bullet and take her in for a vet visit. It doesn't sound to me like anything is wrong with her (but again I am not there so only you know) other than being stressed, but I think you need the reassurance. The vet can look over her and the babies and give you some peace of mind that they are okay, or alternatively, help you solve whatever may be wrong. They may also have some better tips on how to help her settle down. 
 
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firefly5003

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Well she seems very comfy under the a night stand and has been most of the say so I am going to let them be for now and see.  We don't have a dresser in the bedroom (we moved not too long ago and we had someone help but that was one thing that wasn't brought up stairs and it is too hard for me and my boyfriend to do it since I am 5' and not very strong).  We have a couple covered boxes and blankets all around but she seems to like under the bed and night stand the best.  As long as they stay on the blanket under the nightstand I am happy with them there.  I'd just rather not have kitten poop to clean off the carpet.

I will call the vet on Monday and see what they recommend.  We called when there was poo all over the box and she said that sometimes mommy just gets tired and needs a break so it is okay for now.  Again, I will just keep an eye on her since the vet did check her before she had the babies and I don't know what else they would tell me. 

It is weigh in time soon so I will see then and hope for good numbers.
 
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firefly5003

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Lovely.. kittens on my pillow and poop on my bed!  And poop is still on the kittens...  I'd just let them stay there and sleep downstairs but I worry about them squirming off.  And since mommy isn't cleaning them well I don't know what to do. 

Weight gains good for #3 and #4.

#1 132 -> 135 -> 141

#2 138 -> 141 -> 142

#3 128 -> 138 -> 152

#4 157 -> 166 -> 183

#2 is the one that I have seen have liquid poop a couple times so I am worried about him. 
 

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I've never seen kittens not getting cleaned.  A warm damp rough cloth (towel for example, or microfibre cloth) will clean them up pretty well.
 
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firefly5003

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They lost weight today..

past few days:

#1 132 -> 135 -> 141 -> 145

#2 138 -> 141 -> 142 -> 140

#3 128 -> 138 -> 152 -> 153

#4 157 -> 166 -> 183 -> 180

I will call the vet first thing in the morning.  :( I hope they are okay.  Mommy was doing such a good job in the beginning but she seems to be getting frustrated and confused and doesn't like being locked in the closet but moves around to much if allowed in the whole room.
 

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I would definitely take momma and litter to the vet for a check-up, and talk to him about doing supplemental feedings.. ask them to show you how to properly feed with a syringe/bottle, etc. Momma might have an infection or not be feeling good which could explain not taking care of the babes as well lately and the weight-loss.
 
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firefly5003

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I will.  How urgent do you think all this is?  I will call the vet tomorrow and do what they suggest asap, but just so I know what to expect, how long can this lack of weight gain go on at this stage?  Is every day a risk or do they have a little more time before things get critical?  She is finally nursing now.  I don't know if I should sit with her more or less.  I am so worried about all of them and I don't know at what point my paranoia is justified.
 

eb24

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Based on our conversation here and via PM I think you NEED a vet visit ASAP. Not only to rule out infection, ect in Kaylee but also just for your peace of mind. I don't think it's a huge risk if they have low weight gains for a few days, but more than that or once they start losing you really have to get it checked out. I wouldn't classify it as critical as in you need to go find an open animal hospital right now but I do think they need to be seen tomorrow if at all possible or the day after at the latest. I think the vet can really help you at this point and that it's worth the trip. Read back through all your posts on here and make out a good list of questions. The ones I can think of without review are: sexing the kittens, Kaylee's hair loss, the frequency of her den moves, the lack of cleaning, and the kitten separation. 

Good luck and keep us posted! 
 

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If the kittens are becoming lethargic, not suckling as much, or not being as active as you have noticed then you need to take them in ASAP. Kittens can deteriorate pretty fast, I have seen a 3 week old kitten go from running around to dead within a few hours because I had not noticed momma had lost all of her milk but in one nipple so the babies weren't getting enough nourishment. Not saying this to alarm you, but I can tell how much you care for these babies and it's always better to be safe than sorry. Babies are supposed to gain about 7 to 15 grams for day, and with #2 only gaining 2 grams over the course of 4 days, i'd definitely say a vet visit is in order, as soon as you can get to one. Momma may be losing her milk, have infection or some other illness which could explain why she's not caring for the babes as much as she had before. Also the vet can show you the proper way to bottle feed and supplement for the babes.
Sending so many positive vibes your way and wishing for the good health of babes and momma kitty.
 
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firefly5003

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Thank you.  I worry about them so much.

Well I called the vet and they said to supplement their feeding and if they don't gain weight by tomorrow call back.  I just got a bottle and some milk replacer so I will get to feeding them once I finish reading up about it.

I locked Kaylee in the closet with the kittens last night while my boyfriend and I slept downstairs but the doors in my place suck and I must not have closed it all the way and she got out into the bedroom.  She seems to prefer them under or on the bed, but seems to take better care of them when they are in the box.
 
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I was going in to feed them and I weighed them just to check (that was probably around 3, and I weighed them last night around 10).  Everyone gained 10 grams except #3, but he was doing okay before yesterday so I will see how he is tonight.  Kaylee had two on the bed (this is the second time she has #1 and #4 together, and they are the only 2 with opened eyes), and two under the bed, so I put the others on the bed and sat with her as she nursed them.  She has 8 nipples, but the two top ones are pretty small and don't look like they have been used, and one of the ones in the second row seemed to be dry since every kitten that tried would give up and try to fight for the others.  Eventually they all found a nipple but #2 was still upset after they all fell asleep and mom got up to eat, but she eventually sat back down and he nursed a bit more and seems fine.  While he was crying Kaylee would do like these whimpery grumbley meows at me and I am not sure what that means.  I am also worried about them squirming off the bed so I pushed up a towel around them and covered them with the blanket like they were when I found them.  It is a king and they are in the middle so hopefully they don't go that far, but they are good at moving around.  She seems to really want them on the bed so I am just going to leave them there for now and keep and eye on them.  And at least one of them has a loud purr while nursing, so that makes me happy.  I hope for even better gains by tonight.
 

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I have noticed in some of my fosters that the front two nipples are much smaller and don't produce much (if any) milk. I think it's common but not 100% sure on that one. Keep an eye on the nipple that seemed dried out- they may have just been using it a lot earlier or it may be an indication she isn't producing as much. Lack of production is not a problem I have ever had so I will leave that to someone who has. 

That's great news that everyone had some gains- I hope they keep it up! It also sounds like Kaylee has calmed down some and has found a place she likes. It may work to let her in the bed during the day and confine her at night so you guys can sleep. A towel barrier on all sides (and underneath if she'll let you to minimize yucky stuff on your sheets) is a good idea (plus it will be more cozy for Kaylee and brood). Maybe put something heavy in front of the closet door so she can't move it if you go that route. Or else, start getting comfy on the couch. ; ) I still would call and check in with the vet and keep the formula and bottle ready in case you need to step in. What kind of formula did you get? I have heard bad things about the Hertz brand but never tried it myself. 
 
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firefly5003

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I bought 21st Century Milk Replacer but I now read some bad reviews so I will see if I can return it since I didn't open it yet.

So for now we have given up the bedroom to Kaylee.  We have a Liberator Cocoon (totally nsfw if you look it up, but it is a great piece of furniture, I love it) which is like a big bean bag but with foam that will be our bed for a bit.  Yay... we've used it as a bed before but I forget why.  The only bad thing is that our cats peed on it a week ago because their bathroom door got stuck shut (first time that happened) and we got most of it out and cleaned the cover but sometimes you can still smell it (if anyone can think how to get cat pee out of foam let me know!). I pushed the bed in the corner with towels to fill in any gaps and used the comforter to block off one side and I put a big pillow under the bottom that isn't blocked off so if the do manage to wiggle down that far and fall off they will have a soft landing.  Hopefully this will give her a comfy space for them and she will be happier to nurse and clean them.  
 
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Things are looking up!  Kaylee and the kittens seemed to have a good night stealing my bedroom.  I weighed them around noon again which is early and everyone is up more than 10g except #2 (who we call pink face for now because he was born with a very pink face - creative, I know) which is only up 8, but still much better and he did gain 10 yesterday!  He seems to always want to nurse on his side and I have such a hard time trying to get him to stay on his tummy so I wonder if that means anything.  #4 finally broke 200! Hopefully they will get a few more grams in before their normal weigh in time.  It is so nice to see them numbers go up again.  Since giving her the bedroom worked out so well I guess I am not getting my bed back for a bit.. but I'd rather sacrifice my bed than the kittens.

Weights so far (last numbers are at about 15 hours after previous instead of 24):
 7-157-167-177-187-197-207-217-227-237-247-25
#18292107115127132135141145158169
#28493106118133138141142140150158
#37988101113127128138152153153166
#486102115130146157166183180190201
I think I figured out that Kaylee likes when I sit in there with her if she is out in the open, but that I need to give her the space to move the kittens where she wants.  She seems overwhelmed with them and if one cries she will move with the one but leaves the other behind.  She will get to them eventually but I don't know how long that takes.  If she is actually moving them she will move them all.  She doesn't seem to mind if I sit in and help make sure all the kittens stay with her.  And she seems very happy to have me sit with her while nursing.  It seems better to sit with her a couple times a day for a long period of time than come in periodically throughout the day.

And a few pictures:


#3 hehe :D


From left to right by faces, #1, #2, #4, #3


#1 (didn't want to hurt her eyes with the flash or light).  She opened her eyes first.

Oh, and #2 and #3 are finally opening their eyes (#4 did pretty much the same time as #1)!  #3 is pretty much open and #2 has one eye that is still half closed.
 
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eb24

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Yay I'm so glad there is improvement! It sounds like you and Kaylee are finally on the same page. It sucks that it came with the sacrifice of your bed but if you are okay with it then don't mess with what's working! As they get bigger and more independent you may be able to move back in but may have a hard time getting any quality sleep with their antics. 

The pictures are adorable! They are just hitting my favorite stage where their eyes open and ears start to unfold and you can see them learning and absorbing by the second. These first few weeks were really all about Kaylee but soon it will be more about them- watching them learn and grow. It's priceless so enjoy every minute! 
 

eb24

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Fireflly- We haven't heard anything in a few days. Hope this is an indication that all is well and you are just blissed out with the experience. Update please! 
 
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firefly5003

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Sorry!! I had a couple busy days and things have been pretty steady with the babies.  Kitten #1 lost 4 grams a couple days ago but the day before and day after she did well (today she is at 197 but it isn't their weigh-in time yet), and other than that the weights have been pretty good.
 7-157-167-177-187-197-207-217-227-237-247-257-267-27
#18292107115127132135141145158175171184
#28493106118133138141142140150158166181
#37988101113127128138152153153171176201
#486102115130146157166183180190207218226
They just started cleaning themselves.  Everyone's eyes are open and I think they all started purring (I first heard purring at about a week but I couldn't tell which one/ones).  One of them (I think #1) has a really loud purr for such a tiny little thing.  They are very good at crawling!  They are shaky but actually on their feet and have been since earlier this week!  They actually were pretty good at crawling around a bit after week one.  I've even seen them get out of their box which has maybe a 2" lip on it with a thick blanket over it at only a week old. I can't wait for them to actually start playing!

Kaylee likes to keep them under the bed, which I don't really like.. but if it makes her happy and actually feed the babies it is worth the hassle.

One thing that bothers me is that all the kittens but the black one have a little scab like things on the top of their heads.. all in the center on the same spot.  It is really weird.  No hair is missing that I can tell and it is hard to see, especially since they won't keep their head still, but you can feel a scab on them.  We called the vet and they pretty much just said to keep an eye on it.

And Kaylee also has a weird cut on her lip.  I noticed it a day after we took her to the vet originally, which was after we already took her in and I have no clue how she could have done it in our room. We've been keeping an eye on it but it hasn't gotten better and today it started on the other side (the original is the large dark pink spot and it new is the smaller).  It looks horrible and has me worried, but it doesn't seem to be affecting her.  Does anyone have any idea what it is?  I read it could possibly be an allergic reaction to her food.  I forget if it started before or after we got her to food we have been feeding her now.

 
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eb24

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Oh I'm glad you have had a good few days with them! I'm not sure what to make of the cut but really, based on what you explained of Kaylee's skin ailments before and now scabs on the kittens is screaming ringworm to me. I would call the vet back and tell them that is what you suspect it is. If they still say wait on it I would seriously look for a second opinion. It doesn't mean your vet is bad, but that's not something to be taken lightly. Usually ringworm is not fatal but it is a pain to clear up and not getting ahead of it can lead to bad permanent scars and hair loss. My girl had it as a kitten and she does have some permanent scars from it ( I still think she's stinkin adorable though!) Because it can take a long time to clear up and you can't adopt those kittens out until it's gone, you want to get on top of it ASAP. You want to get them adopted as close to 12 weeks as you can. It's awful to say but the bigger they get the less-adoptable they become. 
 
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firefly5003

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I know.. my boyfriend called and mentioned ringworm and I am not sure what they said exactly but he said they didn't really dwell on it and just said it could be over grooming or something.  I'll check out my options.  Ugg, if it is, does that mean we all probably have it?  I don't know how contagious it is to humans... yuck.
 
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Picture time!  I finally got a good amount of light coming in from the window without it being too bright.

#1 is my little model.  She is really good at sitting still and just looking at the camera.  #2 was a little camera shy.  Out of 70 pictures only a couple were in focus of his face.  #3 is my little sweetheart.  He just kind of sits there as his head slowly sinks and he falls asleep.  #4 is the biggest and toughest.  She also is really good at climbing into my head when I am trying to reach under the bed to get them out for weigh-in.  #1 and #4 always seem to be together.  I am still not sure about genders so I am just guessing.




 
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