Need input - FIV+ and FIV- cats living together. Risks/Concerns

[kittyluv387]

Yeah the intimidation/territorial thing is bound to happen with Orville going inside more often. Hopefully they can settle it slowly without too much aggression under your supervision. Of course gotta think about the resident kitties first. Youre doing great with these frequent and supervised visits.

 

[chaucer]

Yeah the intimidation/territorial thing is bound to happen with Orville going inside more often. Hopefully they can settle it slowly without too much aggression under your supervision. Of course gotta think about the resident kitties first. Youre doing great with these frequent and supervised visits.

Thank you.  When I first started letting Orville in, things went pretty well, but now it seems there is that territorial aggression/jealousy with both male cats. If Orville was not FIV+ (and I know I've said this a lot), I'd let the males work it out, but any screech and I'm letting Orville out!

 

[catwoman707]

I think your latest observations are probably right. Chaucer is used to being the guy of the house, they all know the bottom line is that Henryetta rules the roost regardless, but there is always a pecking order for the boys, and while I think that Chaucer may test his limits with Orville, and Orville is simply too mature/aged, and used to not getting pushed around, I don't think he will act aggressive. He's starting to feel some 'rights' perhaps with the home, his food for starters.

This is all fine and normal, and has no bearing at all or threat that there may be trouble in the future, to the contrary, it sounds like they are working on getting acquainted in some of the other ways that housemates do. Nothing that will cause aggressive or dangerous brawls though.

All sounds just fine, just progressing a bit

 

[chaucer]

 
I think your latest observations are probably right. Chaucer is used to being the guy of the house, they all know the bottom line is that Henryetta rules the roost regardless, but there is always a pecking order for the boys, and while I think that Chaucer may test his limits with Orville, and Orville is simply too mature/aged, and used to not getting pushed around, I don't think he will act aggressive. He's starting to feel some 'rights' perhaps with the home, his food for starters.

This is all fine and normal, and has no bearing at all or threat that there may be trouble in the future, to the contrary, it sounds like they are working on getting acquainted in some of the other ways that housemates do. Nothing that will cause aggressive or dangerous brawls though.

All sounds just fine, just progressing a bit

This morning Orville came in at my urging with wet food, as usual, and he and Chaucer ate a little together. If Orville approaches Chaucer now, Chaucer runs. Henryetta and Orville ate some cat treats near each other - 6 inches but if he ventured closer she hissed in his face and he backed away. Actually, he backed out of the open door. When I give food to Orville inside, the door has to be open enough for him to escape.

I think he wants to come inside because he just sits looking in the glass but is afraid of the inside. It's pitiful to see.  He sits looking in when there are guests inside too. They all comment on how they couldn't stand seeing him do this all the time.  He does play inside with the toys, with Chaucer watching nearby and Henryetta will chase her ball while he is in the room.  I think they have a more normal cat  relationship due to them both understanding "cat rules" and perhaps they do kind of recognize each other from the past.

 

[catwoman707]

 
This morning Orville came in at my urging with wet food, as usual, and he and Chaucer ate a little together. If Orville approaches Chaucer now, Chaucer runs. Henryetta and Orville ate some cat treats near each other - 6 inches but if he ventured closer she hissed in his face and he backed away. Actually, he backed out of the open door. When I give food to Orville inside, the door has to be open enough for him to escape.

I think he wants to come inside because he just sits looking in the glass but is afraid of the inside. It's pitiful to see.  He sits looking in when there are guests inside too. They all comment on how they couldn't stand seeing him do this all the time.  He does play inside with the toys, with Chaucer watching nearby and Henryetta will chase her ball while he is in the room.  I think they have a more normal cat  relationship due to them both understanding "cat rules" and perhaps they do kind of recognize each other from the past.

They're establishing themselves among each other as expected. All are acting their parts appropriately, Henryetta being the girl that she is Chaucer won't fear Orville, just all part of getting established in their pecking order smoothly.

This gradual transition is good for Orville too in that, he clearly was an owned cat at some time, his fear of being closed inside due to his time spent without regularly socializing with humans, but in time as he comes inside and feels more secure it will fade away.

Even him looking through the glass door is good. His way of getting used to who's who and what goes on, that the cats aren't afraid or in any danger, helps reassure him that it's a good thing

Of course he wants to be inside, owned, loved, belonging, but it won't happen until he is ready, he will be soon enough.

I hope you are feeling less worried about transmission now too. Clearly there isn't going to be any fighting, that would have happened long ago in the very beginning if either of the boys showed aggression or major competition issues.

All looks smooth!

 

[catsnip404]

I agree with @catwoman707..from what I've read, I feel that your cats are beyond the risk of major brawls of the type that would transmit FIV.  You might have hissy fits now and then, and some of the multicat Feliway products might help with that, but with Orville it might come to a point where you have to just keep him in and "make" him get used to it.  The only reason I say that is because with FIV, he really needs to be an indoor cat.  He can pick up diseases outdoors that will hurt him.

And my FIV+ cat, that I've told you about before, that was an outdoor tom, is starting to think less and less about his outdoor life and is starting to enjoy his indoor life.  Of course, he had no choice, and his acceptance didn't come overnight.  He made "honking" noises (like a Canada goose!) at the window that were just heartbreaking.  And he would paw frantically at the window which I haven't seen him do in awhile.  He lives in my bedroom for now and he now runs to the door to greet me.

In five days, he is going to be retested for FeLV, and if all goes well, even though he is FIV+ I'm going to be introducing him to my FIV- girls that mean the world to me.  Keeping my fingers crossed.

Honestly, even if he comes up with FeLV, I think I might be okay with the introductions to my other cats.  They have all been vaccinated, and as it turns out, my vet's office says the two older ones don't need to be vaccinated anymore because by now they have enough immunity.  My younger girls have been vaccinated from birth essentially, and I also know that cats can fight off FeLV, which I think Nero did, because it's odd (to me) that he has FIV+ and not FeLV.

And at the end of the day, it's going to work out however it works out, and I will love them all.  And all will have had a better life than if I had left them on their own.

 

[chaucer]

CatSnip404 and catwoman707, thank you. I think the worry about Orville freezing or getting hurt or sick is trumping my worry about my indoor two contracting FIV from him, but I am still cautious.

A friend brought straw over for me to put in Orville's bed as insulation. I have put it underneath and all around his  fleece pet bed that has a blanket in it. I've made a kind of tent over it too since Orvillle would not go into the "house" I made  from the plastic tub. Orville wants to be able to see his surroundings. The tent does not cover the entire bed, but he can burrow and go back further under the blanket-tent in the laundry basket that house his bed. The basket is pushed up aganist the overturned plastic tub so that it is protected a little from any wind.

Catsnip,I know what you mean about making him come in.  I wish I had a bathroom that I could shut him in because I'm not sure I want him in my bedroom. He's a big cat, and if I'm honest I am a little afraid of those big paws swatting at me. He does seem to know the words "Hey," and "No," but I think it is just the change in my voice when he does something he shouldn't. He spent some time in the house playing this morning. Chaucer went into the crate the entire time and Henryetta sat on the sidelines watching Orville chase the ball and mini-mouse. He grooms in front of them, rolls around and so forth, so I can tell he isn't afraid of them. I'm not sure they are of him, either. Just wary of him, and as I said, he's a pretty big cat compared to Chaucer.

Orville did not have FeLV but was FIV +.  Both of my cats have had the FeLv shots, and Orville has had his now. It is true that yours and mine have had a better life than they would have had we never "met" them!

 

[chaucer]

I understand. I've only brought in one other cat from the outside and both situations were very different.  I  will post an update if and when Orville moves inside.

 

[ralphscats]

 
CatSnip404 and catwoman707, thank you. I think the worry about Orville freezing or getting hurt or sick is trumping my worry about my indoor two contracting FIV from him, but I am still cautious.

A friend brought straw over for me to put in Orville's bed as insulation. I have put it underneath and all around his  fleece pet bed that has a blanket in it. I've made a kind of tent over it too since Orvillle would not go into the "house" I made  from the plastic tub. Orville wants to be able to see his surroundings. The tent does not cover the entire bed, but he can burrow and go back further under the blanket-tent in the laundry basket that house his bed. The basket is pushed up aganist the overturned plastic tub so that it is protected a little from any wind.

Catsnip,I know what you mean about making him come in.  I wish I had a bathroom that I could shut him in because I'm not sure I want him in my bedroom. He's a big cat, and if I'm honest I am a little afraid of those big paws swatting at me. He does seem to know the words "Hey," and "No," but I think it is just the change in my voice when he does something he shouldn't. He spent some time in the house playing this morning. Chaucer went into the crate the entire time and Henryetta sat on the sidelines watching Orville chase the ball and mini-mouse. He grooms in front of them, rolls around and so forth, so I can tell he isn't afraid of them. I'm not sure they are of him, either. Just wary of him, and as I said, he's a pretty big cat compared to Chaucer.

Orville did not have FeLV but was FIV +.  Both of my cats have had the FeLv shots, and Orville has had his now. It is true that yours and mine have had a better life than they would have had we never "met" them!

Chaucer,

I'm sorry I haven't been on here for a while. You said you are afraid of his big paws swatting you. Do you think you can trim his nails? If not, can you take him to the vet for a trim? I trim my FIV girl's nails and I put soft paws on them. I haven't mastered putting the soft paws on yet because they usually start falling off after a day or two. I think as I do it more, I'll learn and get better at it, at least I'm hoping. I've had cat scratch fever, so I have to be careful that I don't get an infection that might go to my heart. Declawing is bad anyway, but even more so in a FIV cat, so the trims and soft paws are what I'm doing to try to help us both.

 

[catsnip404]

Hi Chaucer!

Yes, I totally understand your concern about getting swatted.  And every cat is different.  I was quite afraid of Nero when I first brought him home from the spay/neuter clinic as they wrote "CAUTION!!  FRACTIOUS!!" with stars around it on his discharge paperwork.  LOL!!  The called him "the bad one," and these were people that all they did was spay/neuter on mostly ferals, semi-ferals and strays all day all week long.  And they told me, "Do NOT let him out in your house..."

He spent the first 10 days recovering in a cage next to my bed, and then when I let him out, I didn't sleep much that first night, especially when I felt him come up on the bed.  I was scared to death of what might happen if I moved.

And I have gotten swatted a few times, but all were superficial scratches more out of fear than anything, like quick "scratch and run" incidents.  And of the three times I have felt teeth on me, two were no-pressure "I don't like that" bites, and one was a "love bite" that also didn't hurt.

However, with that said, that's THIS cat, not Orville, and it's all in hindsight.  I do remember feeling anxious about what he might do, even before and after these incidents.  Even recently, I leaned in (probably too quickly) while he was on a shelf to baby talk to him and I got a hiss and a swat on the side of the head.  But even then I only got a few "pin prick" marks.  Still, I don't need one in my eye, so I won't be doing that again.  

I did notice that if I felt anxious and hesitant, he seemed to pick up on that and was anxious too.  So what I did was start with what he was most comfortable with -- me laying down, since he had seen me sleeping at night and was of no threat.  Then sitting up on the bed, and now standing (which was the most anxiety provoking for him as I towered over him).  I've also started pushing the envelope with him a bit, to help him get over some fears.  With that I mean being a little more hands on, on his limbs, etc., doing something for a second or two, then stopping before he reacts.  It works with my horses, and seems to work well with him too, as he learns that what I'm doing isn't hurting him.

It's gotten to where I can pick Nero up now, but always with him pointed away from my face, just in case.  He will likely never be like my fully domesticated kitties in his reactions, but he's a love bug, especially when I go to bed.  Over time, I've become more comfortable with him and him with me.

Every cat is different, so of course use caution.  But I'm hoping you will have a similar journey with Orville!  

Keep us posted!

 

[catsnip404]

"P.S."  (LOL!)  As I was laying in bed last night, I realized that I need to add the "downside" of having a cat like this in your bedroom -- lack of sleep!  Hahahahah!  At least with Nero.

Actually, it's much better than it was, but Nero starts shortly after I get in bed and again around 5am, almost like clockwork.  He peers out the window and makes anxious noises for a few minutes, then looks at me and makes them at me, then I talk to him and he comes up and meows in my face and lays with me for a few minutes while I pet him, then he's back at the window and the cycle begins again, until eventually he settles down to sleep.

However these episodes are getting much shorter and with much less intensity.  This used to go on for an hour, and now it's only about 15 minutes.  This is now combined with playing with toys, which he was afraid of up until about a month ago.  His vet appointment is tomorrow, and I'm hoping soon he can be out with my girls, which will make life more interesting for him.

So this is another thing to consider if you do think about bringing Orville into your room at night.

 

[chaucer]

I've realized from seeing a photo I took of Orville months ago that he is just fat and not so huge in general. In the photo he was half the size he is now, and he's getting bigger now that he's been neutered. I imagine he is eating elsewhere sometimes.  He needs to be on a diet. His sides stick out like he is going to have kittens in three weeks!   I do not want him in my bedroom because of the potential for swatting, but I don't let my other two sleep in there with me either. Chaucer thinks the four posters are scratching posts and Henryetta will become her "Pushy Cat" persona and pester me for attention no matter if I'm sleeping.

Orville is more comfortable in the house now. He slept in a little cat bed for a while and he is playing a lot when he comes inside. The FIV does still concern me with the sharing of food bowls and toys, but I am getting over this.

If I could get Orville into a crate and to the vet again, I will get his claws trimmed. The other two need their claws done as well.

 

[chaucer]

Orville has been in the house for three-and-a-half hours now, not counting the hour he was inside this morning. He is sleeping in the kitten bed.  I think he has decided he is okay in the house. Chaucer is sleeping on the sofa and Henryetta is sleeping in her bed on the dining room table. There has been no aggression between the cats, other than Henryetta's hissing when Orville gets too close.  Because Orville has shown no interest in his litter box (I have three now), he cannot remain inside at night, at least right now. I was hoping Chaucer would show him how to use it but so far, no.

Orville may be a young cat and not Henryetta's litter mate because he is extremely playful and really wants to play with Chaucer. In fact, Chaucer is kind of getting the same treatment he gave Henryetta, and Chaucer, while not hissy, isn't really thrilled with the attention.   

 

[catwoman707]

 
Orville has been in the house for three-and-a-half hours now, not counting the hour he was inside this morning. He is sleeping in the kitten bed.  I think he has decided he is okay in the house. Chaucer is sleeping on the sofa and Henryetta is sleeping in her bed on the dining room table. There has been no aggression between the cats, other than Henryetta's hissing when Orville gets too close.  Because Orville has shown no interest in his litter box (I have three now), he cannot remain inside at night, at least right now. I was hoping Chaucer would show him how to use it but so far, no.

Orville may be a young cat and not Henryetta's litter mate because he is extremely playful and really wants to play with Chaucer. In fact, Chaucer is kind of getting the same treatment he gave Henryetta, and Chaucer, while not hissy, isn't really thrilled with the attention.   

Awesome! So he is gaining trust very well.

I've not done this yet, but I've always thought that it would be great if they made cat scratchers with 100 grit sandpaper on them so cat's nails would be smoothed down and not have the sharp tips!

Hard to say about judging age with play, I've got one girl Krissy who gets spunky occasionally at night with a race through the house, and she is nearly 14, but I also have Simone who is older then her and gets playful often, even spotting a leaf from the back deck puts her in play mode with batting and chasing it around.

Also a former feral Debbie who is old and about the spunkiest old cat I've ever seen.

Then again younger cats who just don't want to be bothered. Go figure.

Krissy likes the laser light but loses interest in it after a couple minutes. That's always a good way to get them to interact together, if they like the laser light.

Or catnip, 3 piles in a row, they suddenly forget all about how a newbie is there rolling in their own pile

 

[chaucer]

 

[chaucer]

And I wanted to announce that Orville has made the decision to live in the house. He is getting acquainted with everything by following me around and pestering Chaucer I, however, am the one not so sure about this. I was hoping he would choose to move in during a time where I would be home several days in a row. That is not the case for this weekend.

 

[catwoman707]

Ah so the trust scale has tipped for him now, he's decided it's a go, safe and out of harm's way. This is very good. 

Nice pic, Chaucer and Orville are good looking cats! Look at how they are together, Chaucer sits by and watches Orville, who has his back turned to Chaucer. This is VERY good.

So are you saying that Orville only goes potty outside or he has gone elsewhere in the house?

 

[chaucer]

He hasn't gone at all that I can tell. He goes out but runs down the steps and then comes back and sits outside the door. He spends time inside lying on a very light beige rug and there is no sign he has tinkled on it. The other two have not been sniffing the carpet. I put a litter box in the family room and it's in plain sight. Henryetta just decided to christen it but neither cat has gone in front of Orville. I'm not sure he knows what to do. There are two other litter boxes in the laundry room. He's been in there but hasn't done anything. Until he can potty in the litter box, he can't spend the night inside.

And thanks, Orville and Chaucer are pretty great, and so is Henryetta. I think she will come around in time.  You can see in the photo how much bigger Orville is and why I have been worried about confrontations. Chaucer has started standing up to Orville though. Orville's confrontations are more play-oriented. His bottom sometimes wiggles. It's exactly how Chaucer treats Henryetta, except Henryetta hisses or runs. I just don't want the neck/body biting Chaucer does to Henryetta - he doesn't hurt her but it seems a little strong at times.

 

[catwoman707]

I didn't think he would have gone but wanted to double check.

He knows what the box is for, one, he was once owned and very likely used one, and two, instinct says to bury their elimination scent to ward off predators, so at this point it's probably more out of habit then anything to go outside to do his business

 

[chaucer]

I don't  know if he was really owned, in the sense he lived inside and was loved. I think he was fed by the people across the street, which is where Henryetta was as well. There was a colony of cats that had taken up residence in the crawl space of the house. Now whether that was before or after the people abandoned the home and possibly the cats, I don't know..  I understand that these people had pets in the house - dachshunds-and then I'd see  couple of cats outside with the people and walking up to them.. The house has been in the process of being completely renovated and the cats who were there have had to disperse in the last year or so, which may explain why I started seeing Orville a little over a year ago.