Need input - FIV+ and FIV- cats living together. Risks/Concerns

[chaucer]

 
This is another great update!! They are clearly going to be just fine!

NO, no risk of contracting from eating together, none. The ONLY way is deep bleeding bite wounds.

The only other possibility is very rare, but moms nursing their babies. Babies will test positive for a short time, but every so often they do get fiv.

No other way.

Henryetta and he will not fight, she is showing typical female behavior for a new kid in her castle

So glad to have this clarified again. 

A little step backward today. Chaucer and Orville swatted each other when I finally got Orville to come in. I think it's because Orville came in while Chaucer was there. Yesterday, Orville came in before Chaucer was near the door. Chaucer now runs to the door when he hears that the door is being opened. My security alarm system announces "Back Door" each time the door opens. Today, Orville didn't want to stay inside at all. He kept eating a bit and then turning to the door.

 

[chaucer]

 
That is a fantastic update!  And if you can, it's better to keep him in the house.  FIV cats can pick up more diseases outside that they might not be able to fight off, so an indoor life is really better for them.  Nero gets a little upset, but in the end, it's better for him, however he does seem to enjoy being inside now as well -- he's even started to play with toys.  

Counting down less then two weeks for the retest of Nero, the feral (or maybe semi-feral) that I brought inside that is living in my bedroom.  I had been feeding him for about eight months and finally trapped him (oh the guilt!) and he tested FIV+ but thankfully FeLV-.  I know he got into a fight with an FeLV+ tom, so just to be sure on the FeLV I have had him quarantined all this time, and have done an amazing amount of laundry and handwashing.

Thanks in part to Feliway, he has made major strides in getting over his anxiety, and has turned out to be a really lovey boy.  He still has his moments where anxiety gets the best of him, but it's become more and more rare, even without the Feliway.

But the next step is to introduce him to my four indoor girls that are all FIV-.  It will be a slow introduction, but clearly by now they all are aware of each other, and one of my girls even talks to him through the door.

I was paranoid about FIV too at the beginning, but I'm okay with it now.  Slow and steady will be the course, however long it takes.

For anyone wondering....I blocked the main door of the bedroom to the rest of the house with a dresser that has a solid skirt so there is no nose-to-nose contact under the door.  The only entrance to the bedroom right now is through a bathroom, giving double-door protection.  But it is cute when he's on top of the dresser talking and Miss Julia talks back.  Assuming his FeLV test comes back negative, she'll be my first ambassador.  

I'm so glad to hear your story, CatSnip. I may try Feliway, if only for Henryetta.   Orville likes to play with toys and has been playing with them outside for a few months. I think he wants to come in but he still has that fear of being trapped. I can't think it is still because he doesn't want to come into the other cats' territory. Like your boy, Orville is very loving. He now tries to get in my lap if I sit on the back steps. He's too big for my lap, but he puts his front paws on my leg and purrs loudly.

You are fortunate to be able to block off a room and still have access via another way. I don't have that. I could move a large piece of furniture in front of the bathroom sliding door but then I couldn't get in. It was quite funny (and a little dangerous when I created the barricade to keep the kittens in there and Chaucer out. I used a card table with an ottoman pushed up against it, and then I had some old bead board that I wedged in the door to prevent Chaucer from prying the door open from the top of the barricade. Needless to say it was a pain having to reset the wood just right so the door wouldn't open. I had to use a step stool and climb down over the barricade each time. Orville really a strong cat, so I think he would easily be able to force the sliding door open even with all of that.

The FIV still worries me, but thanks to all the advice, support and encouragement (and now your own story), I'm feeling better about it.

 

[chaucer]

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Orville 100.jpg

• chaucer
• Jan 10, 2016

Orville 101.jpg

• chaucer
• Jan 10, 2016

Orville 102.jpg

• chaucer
• Jan 10, 2016

 Orville has been in twice this morning. It's in the teens this morning so I'm hopeful as the weather gets colder he will want to stay inside. I let him out when he wants out.  I am getting more comfortable, and I think he is too, but when Chaucer came up one of the times and lightly swatted at him, Orville turned his head as if to bite. I think this is a reflex more than being aggressive, but it is still a concern.  Orville crouched at the base of the outdoor steps, ran up them at Henryetta. I don't know if he was playing or not but she turned and ran off. No hissing or growling from either, and there has been no hissing and growling between Chaucer and Orville so far.

 

[catwoman707]

It all sounds fine, being cats.

Orville won't show any aggression towards Henryetta so he must have been playing.

No signs at all of any potential real fighting, honestly things are going very well!

As I mentioned before, at this point you would have already seen very obviously if there were going to be any real issues.

 

[chaucer]

Thanks!  I'm a worrier.

Orville is  currently curled up in his little bed just outside on the step. It's cold; it's a little windy. He won't come in and he won't let me create a windbreak. He will sit on top of his now-unused shelter. . I'm not sure that. it's even Chaucer or Henryetta stopping him from coming inside. I think it is simply his fear of the indoors. He already knows it's warmer in here and he wandered all over the house today, and even jumped up at the glass grilled-door when I opened the front door for him to see out. I had put the other two cats in my room so Orville could explore without them. So want him to come in when it gets really cold and just stay inside!

 

[catsnip404]

Hi Chaucer!

The only reason I have gone to the extreme of blocking off the doorway is because of the concern of "possible" FeLV, which could be spread by them sniffing under the door, and mainly because he'd gotten in that fight with a cat that later turned out to be FeLV positive.  But it sounds like you had quite the setup at one point to keep cats separated!    I can relate to that too!

It sounds like things are progressing, and they need to work things out slowly.  "Posturing" is normal during this process.  I have read that FIV cats can even get in little tiffs or rough play without it transmitting.  It's really the major deep bite wounds that are an issue and I've never seen that with any cats I've introduced.  However, do your own research on this -- I'm not an expert by any means.  It's just what I've read and observed.

I don't want to hyjack the thread, but in my next post, I would like to respond to CatWoman707's question to me that she posted in this thread.

It'll be a little long, but in a way, it's a tribute to an unsung hero of a cat that really saved a lot of other cats lives, born and never born...and enriched my life as well.  

 

[catsnip404]

@catwoman707   --  That's a good question and one I would ask someone as well if they posted as little information as I did about the circumstances.

You asked, so here's the story of Arancione -- a cat that suffered but not in vain -- an unsung hero in my book.

All of this (my involvement in TNR and Nero being in my house) started because someone had posted a sign at the exit of my subdivision several times about a lost orange cat.  Eventually I did see an orange cat in my neighbor's yard a few times and so called the number on the flyer the next time it was posted.

It was a heartbreaking story.  She lived about 50 miles away and due to the economy had lost her home and had to live out of her car, and so asked a friend that lived in my subdivision to hold onto her cat until she could get back on her feet, and she would drive an hour once a month to come see him.  Well, in between visits the cat got out, and the "friend" never told her.  So at that point, knowing how I would feel and being local, I did everything I could to find that cat, starting with putting food on my back porch to see if the orange cat I spotted was her beloved Simon.

Turns out, it wasn't him (and no, we never did find Simon).  But in the meantime, a few other cats were coming to feed at random times, including a fluffy black one.  Well, one day the orange one and the fluffy black one ended up at my house at the same time, and got into a big fight (the fight I mentioned), and I ran out and tried to break them up but they were rolling down the embankment together, screeching.  There was nothing I could do.

I had initially started putting food out to find Simon, but now these other cats were coming to eat, so I kept feeding them.  I noticed the black one had a wound on his leg (yes, turns out it was a boy -- and I named him Nero, which is Italian for "black") but it seemed to heal up.  And the orange one, which I named Arancione (Italian for "orange", pronounced "aran-CHO-ney") continued to come by too about once a week.

But one day it looked like Arancione had burnt fur on the side of his face.  And on his weekly visits, I noticed that it wasn't getting better -- the "burnt" area seemed to be spreading.  And soon after I saw him shaking his head as he was trying to crunch his food, like he was in pain just trying to eat, and then when he turned his head it looked like the skin on the side of his face was peeling away.  It was horrifying!!

Obviously he needed veterinary care, so I started researching online "how to trap a cat", and bought a raccoon trap at Home Depot.  Unfortunately he only came by seldomly, and in the meantime I kept catching these other cats.  Having learned about TNR online while trying to figure out how to catch him, I couldn't in clear conscience let them go without neutering them.  So I did every one I caught and got them their shots, wormer, flea treatment, etc.  (Obviously, some of this was only a temporary measure, but if they would have relief for one month, it was worth it to me.)

One day, I happened to be on the phone and looking out my back window, and I saw Arancione coming.  So I hung up and put the trap where he would intercept it and FINALLY caught him!  It was evening and the vet was closed, so my plan was to take him to the vet in the morning.  But once I got a good look at him, especially after he had thrashed around in the trap, making his face worse, it couldn't wait.  I took him immediately to an emergency animal clinic.

They snipped away the dead skin, to be able to evaluate the situation.  And they tested him for FIV and FeLV.  Unfortunately, he was positive for both.  And their assessment was that he must have gotten into a fight and had an infection in the side of his face that he couldn't fight off and so it got worse and worse.  He had a fever and was in very poor condition.

I would have to bring him to the vet every two days to have him sedated and his wound cleaned, which took up most of the side of his face, and given the sheer size and his autoimmune diseases, there were no guarantees, but even IF he could heal, it would take 4-5 months.  And since he was FeLV positive, he could never go back outside again as well, and I would have to rehome him to somewhere that might take in FeLV cats, which would be very difficult to find, and would be extremely stressful for him as well even if I could.

I was initially willing to go the long haul, but given these test results and this prognosis, and the stress he would be subjected to, it seemed more humane to put him down.  I cried so hard!  I told them I wanted to be there with him for it, that even though he was out cold with the sedation, that he would be petted and loved at least once as he went.  (Honestly, I think there was a miscommunication and they screwed up, and did a "do-over" hoping I wouldn't notice.  I still hate it, but I have to accept that people make mistakes, and he was loved by me regardless, and wouldn't have had any comfort from my presence anyway.)

Sometimes when he did come, Arancione liked to sit at the far corner of my porch and gaze at the lake, and so I brought him home and buried him next to a tree that is off of that same corner and overlooks the lake.

I have his paw prints in a card that I will treasure always -- it is because of Arancione (and really, Simon too) that I learned about TNR and continue to practice it and advocate for it to this day.  And it's why Nero ("the fluffy black one" that he fought with) now has a loving forever home with me.  He's eight years old with FIV (maybe from that day….kicking myself), and his best chance is to be inside.  And he's so bonded with me now that I can't rehome him, nor at this point would I want to.  He's my baby. 

R.I.P beloved Arancione -- I'm sorry I couldn't save you, but your life, and death, have made a difference in this world in many ways that you will never know, and you will be forever in my heart.

Arancione.jpg

• catsnip404
• Jan 10, 2016

Sorry for the gore, but this is the "sweetest" and least gruesome pic I have of him, the poor baby  

 

[catwoman707]

Thank you for the touching story, I understand now

This pic hurts my heart, as I tell everyone who will listen, cats left homeless/abandoned or feral and unloved are my very softest spots, my heart hurts for their lives and living life unloved and unwanted. No sense of belonging in this world, just living random any way they can. I see it in his face his life had been hard.

I am thankful that he had someone to care about his existence at the end

@Chaucer  I know you need to be reassured often, and this is normal and quite understandable!! 

I am very confident there will be no problems with cat fights among your 3 kids

We would have seen some 'iffy' moments in the beginning and we have not, only them co-existing and adapting very nicely.

 

[chaucer]

CatSnip, thank you for sharing your story. You did a wonderful thing loving Arancione. The cats in your neighborhood are so fortunate you are there and that you care.

@catwoman707: Yes, I know that they are okay together. I just panic a little. I don't want my indoor cats to contract something due to carelessness on my part.

Just for the record, Chaucer and Orville ate together off the same small plate this morning. Orville played with toys inside today in front of Chaucer who was sitting in the open-door crate. Orville rolled around in front of him as well.  Henryetta did not hiss or growl at Orville when they passed near each other. Orville and Henryetta have the same black mark in the same spot on the same back leg, so I think they are litter mates. Orville wanted back out in the 18 degree weather after nearly an hour in the house, so I let him out.

 

[zed xyzed]

Every time I read your posts I smile. It is so nice to hear how well Orville is getting along with your cats. I am so happy that Orville has someone to look after him and give him the love he deserves. He really is a sweet boy.

 

[zed xyzed]

@CatSnip404  what a heartbreaking story, thank you for trying so valiantly to save Arancione. You are a kind person

 

[catsnip404]

@Chaucer, that's wonderful news!  Sounds like they are doing great!  Awesome update!  

 

 

[catwoman707]

 
CatSnip, thank you for sharing your story. You did a wonderful thing loving Arancione. The cats in your neighborhood are so fortunate you are there and that you care.

@catwoman707: Yes, I know that they are okay together. I just panic a little. I don't want my indoor cats to contract something due to carelessness on my part.

Just for the record, Chaucer and Orville ate together off the same small plate this morning. Orville played with toys inside today in front of Chaucer who was sitting in the open-door crate. Orville rolled around in front of him as well.  Henryetta did not hiss or growl at Orville when they passed near each other. Orville and Henryetta have the same black mark in the same spot on the same back leg, so I think they are litter mates. Orville wanted back out in the 18 degree weather after nearly an hour in the house, so I let him out.

Yes! It just keeps getting better and better!! 

 

[chaucer]

 
Yes! It just keeps getting better and better!! 

I hope so.  I put the recent photos in the "New to caring for feral" topic  I have iin the Ferals forum.

If only Orville will just stay in the house. I'm currently clearing out/organizing the laundry room just in case, but I don't think he will want to be confined. I could just put my two in the bedroom and let Orville wander at night in the house if it comes to that.

 

[chaucer]

I do have something to share:  Orville butt-scooted on the carpet. He hadn't been to the bathroom so there were no marks from this. I've never seen him do something like this. My other two don't do it either. Was he just leaving his "scent" there? His behind was clean when he stopped (I told him "no").

 

[zed xyzed]

 
I do have something to share:  Orville butt-scooted on the carpet. He hadn't been to the bathroom so there were no marks from this. I've never seen him do something like this. My other two don't do it either. Was he just leaving his "scent" there? His behind was clean when he stopped (I told him "no").

uggggg so I guess he isn't the perfect guest lol. You are making amazing progress with the crew !!

 

[chaucer]

 
uggggg so I guess he isn't the perfect guest lol. You are making amazing progress with the crew !!

At least he didn't leave skid marks on the carpet. I'm not sure why he was scooting like that. I've never seen him do that outside. I'm wondering if it was a scent-thing.

 

[chaucer]

This morning, I got him to come in and Chaucer may have met his match. Orville, in his play mode, swatted Chaucer who was trapped against the fireplace hearth. No wounds, but of course I was worried. Orville chased Chaucer out of the living room and Chaucer hung back a bit. Orville is more than two times Chaucer's size and his feet are big. He's also got that tough Tom skin which Chaucer does not have. Everyone see why I'm worried even when they are playing!

 

[kittyluv387]

Its not a bad thing. They might be great play buddies one day and it doesnt seem like Orville is being aggressive. Its great he feels comfy enough to be playful inside. im sure Chaucer can handle his own during play. Or neutered boys purrrsonality is the major factor.

 

[chaucer]

Its not a bad thing. They might be great play buddies one day and it doesnt seem like Orville is being aggressive. Its great he feels comfy enough to be playful inside.

im sure Chaucer can handle his own during play. Or neutered boys purrrsonality is the major factor.

I hope you are right.  I opened the door again and Orville saw the food, saw Chaucer approaching it and ran in and swatted. Chaucer is starting to back off. Orville runs to Chaucer, perhaps in play, but Chaucer is acting like Henryetta by just backing off and running away and/or doing the Halloween cat stance. No hissing/growling from the boys though. Orville is probably intimidating just by his size.  I picked up Chaucer and carried him around. Orville followed us into my bedroom where Henryetta was sleeping on the bed, but nothing occurred. I let him outside again.

Chaucer is pesty and friendly; Orville is a former feral but relatively friendly with other cats, other than the territorial Tom fights in his past. Chaucer is my first priority. Henryetta knows how to handle other cats from her time "in the wild," but Chaucer does not. If the boys don't settle, Orville will need to remain an outdoor cat with some indoor privileges. If FIV wasn't an issue, it would be different and they could hash it out. I don't think there will be aggressive fights, but I do think there is a little intimidation/territorial thing going on right now.