My Cat Kitten was blinded because of a bad veternarian overdosing her with Baytril

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kittens mom

Kittens life was lost to a negligent veterinarian.
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Now, on to the important question that I don't think anyone's asked yet: are  you going to get an expert witness?

Changing the subject a little, I was talking to RB about the judge's decision, and he thinks there might be a logical, reasonable decision for what the judge did: he thinks that it's possible the judge simply didn't feel qualified to judge the evidence as it stood without an expert witness on both  sides. (I'm assuming that the vet could serve as her own expert witness here.) So, it's possible that the judge simply wanted you to have all the ammunition you need to make the case stick good and proper, and it's not the power of the almighty dollar. (Of course, it's entirely possible that he's wrong, and that the judge WAS influenced by the dollar. Hard to say.)
I am exploring options as we chat, and I speak on the phone. There is a short window for the appeal. 15 days. The Judge implied it would be like a new trial. So that means starting the case from scratch not just a rehash. I have some phone calls to return and then I'm taking off till Monday. In reality all I need to do is secure the expert witness. Clean up some evidence that was dismissed and hire an expert. I am much better prepared to go ahead and represent myself having seen the traps I fell into.

I almost had the ball through the hoop.

And I want to commend my Magistrate Judge for his patience and willingness to listen and hear my point of view during the trial rather than dismissing me as an idiot.
 

handsome kitty

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I commend you for taking the high road.  I would be soooo mad at the Judge.  did the fact that she was using a generic and labeled it as the Bayer product come up too?

Hugs to you
 
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kittens mom

Kittens life was lost to a negligent veterinarian.
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I commend you for taking the high road.  I would be soooo mad at the Judge.  did the fact that she was using a generic and labeled it as the Bayer product come up too?

Hugs to you
Yes. But without a witness to handle it there wasn't much traction.

The judge followed the law for both sides. You wouldn't enjoy seeing your adversary in court getting special treatment.
 

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Time to rest.  Decide how you want to proceed.  I'm thinking that unless you can get an expert witness to take this pro bono, it is not worth pursuing.  You have done what you set out to do,  You effectively humiliated her in open court, regardless of the verdict, AND SHE KNOWS IT!  And she will never. ever make that mistake again.  The NMSVB would take a very dim view of a second case coming before them with Dr. Mengele.  She knows this, too.  She has been put on notice.  Me, I'd think about calling that very annoying reporter that you mentioned at some point, and having a long talk with him, expressing your concern for previous patients...But then, I've got a mean streak that only shows up after a very, very long fuse burns down...and it has, here.  Also hoping there were a few people in the courtroom, and that tongues are wagging.  Surely one of them is an ailurophile!

I would love to see you become an advocate for change.  I've heard your ideas on that, and think that they are quite workable.  And you know that there are several of us here who would work with and for you, should you decide to take this route.
 
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kittens mom

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Time to rest.  Decide how you want to proceed.  I'm thinking that unless you can get an expert witness to take this pro bono, it is not worth pursuing.  You have done what you set out to do,  You effectively humiliated her in open court, regardless of the verdict, AND SHE KNOWS IT!  And she will never. ever make that mistake again.  The NMSVB would take a very dim view of a second case coming before them with Dr. Mengele.  She knows this, too.  She has been put on notice.  Me, I'd think about calling that very annoying reporter that you mentioned at some point, and having a long talk with him, expressing your concern for previous patients...But then, I've got a mean streak that only shows up after a very, very long fuse burns down...and it has, here.  Also hoping there were a few people in the courtroom, and that tongues are wagging.  Surely one of them is an ailurophile!

I would love to see you become an advocate for change.  I've heard your ideas on that, and think that they are quite workable.  And you know that there are several of us here who would work with and for you, should you decide to take this route.
If she was humiliated that is a side effect. She blinded Kitten because she was suing a pharmacology book that was 16 years old. This is not a vendetta it's about getting some justice for a living creature the law has left without a voice.

I am in contact with a lawyer and a service that helps find local veterinarians. There are things that might make an appeal very credible. Mostly I would like to focus some energy on change.

When a professional can count of a client not being able to pursue a valid claim because lawyers won't work on contingency since the recovery would never pay. Slapshot in the dark if you get the judge that will award non monetary damages for the wrong.  Experts that won't work with  pro se unless you have a lawyer.

I know for a fact there are several other victims of her practice. One is really just weird. Of course it doesn't cost money to file a complaint beyond postage with the State Veterinary Boards. And if you really have that gut feeling something is wrong. You need to do that.

There was a great deal of circumstantial evidence in my case that would lead any reasonable person to at least seriously consider the claim that the vet had a direct hand in Kitten losing her vision.

Judges are reluctant to hold the professional accountable even when it's written across their forehead.

Claiming that enrofloxacin is your Top Shelf drug of choice and then flipping over and saying you never heard that high doses could blind a cat could be taken in several ways. Neither very nice.

Of course she could have brought in a colleague to back up her side of the claim Kitten was also on her death bed. A complete and total lie to try and justify giving an extra high dose. When a veterinarian has a patient they cannot treat properly they are to continue supportive treatment and find a referral. Not play God without consent.

I seriously doubt the Judge had ever had a case like this. I have a right to set a precedent.  Our claim is valid , Just because you're in the right doesn't mean you win.

Kitten lost her vision after this vet gave her an excessive dose , then admits to using a 16 year old pharmacology book. Claims enrofloxacin is her go to antibiotic. But in 16 years that warning on every package , insert doesn't stimulate her to check up on it.
 

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I do know that the humiliation was a side effect, however, with a woman of her ego, it was probably worse than anything the judge could have said or done, short of a jail sentence, which was not even on the table in a case like this.  It's something.  As is setting precedence. Trying hard here to cling to whatever silver lining I can find.

You proceed from here on out in whatever way seems best to you.  Be it appeal, advocate for change, do both, or just...try to get your life back on some sort of track, I am here for you and will continue to support you in any way I possibly can.  But I think you know this. 
 
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kittens mom

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I do know that the humiliation was a side effect, however, with a woman of her ego, it was probably worse than anything the judge could have said or done, short of a jail sentence, which was not even on the table in a case like this.  It's something.  As is setting precedence. Trying hard here to cling to whatever silver lining I can find.

You proceed from here on out in whatever way seems best to you.  Be it appeal, advocate for change, do both, or just...try to get your life back on some sort of track, I am here for you and will continue to support you in any way I possibly can.  But I think you know this. 
If I simply wanted to destroy her I could have put up a face book page and went to town. I'm sure we could have had nasty animal activists hovering in court. You can't advocate change if you're no better than the person who is responsible for the injury. If you put on your red nose and act the part your credibility goes down the toilet NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU ARE IN THE RIGHT.

I would also like to say that the system that was used to protect her professional reputation and the judge's reluctance to fully consider the circumstantial evidence including admissions by the vet on the stand , should have no more importance than my right, my husband's right and Kittens right not to be physically and financially damaged. In fact as a learned professional she is held to a greater duty of care. Would it be reasonable to find her at fault or at least partly at fault for using a 16 year old book. Failing to stay current by New Mexico Law. Admitting to no longer using that book. Admitting she would no longer administer that does. And her failure to be able to provide us with informed consent for treatment. Informed consent.

When a vet that claims a lifetime of working with animals tries to insinuate that corneal ulcers common to feline herpes is somehow related to retinal toxicity and then backtrack and say she didn't know of a connection and then says the first time she ever heard of retinal toxicity related to enrofloxacin is when the ER /Specialist emailed her the report , and that dose had been in play per evidence for over 13 years and her response is she takes her mandatory 15 hours of continuing education.

She brought a USDA licensed dog breeder as a character witness. I'm not going to go there beyond the words puppies for pet shops.

She didn't bring a fellow veterinarian in to vouch for her as that would have ended the trail before it began if she was in the right. One I doubt she could find a vet that wanted to touch her case. At least my excuse is experts don't like to work unless you have an attorney. And two. I would have been able to cross.

BTW after months of research with some sides on experts. Experts should be appointed by the court from a pool just like juries with specialties considered and testify for neither the defense or plaintiff but to the facts and current medial opinion.

It prevents per trail conditioning. Witness grooming. The expert would then explain to the judge/jury the facts and most probable cause of the injury and if the treatment complied with current medial/veterinary standards.
 
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kittens mom

Kittens life was lost to a negligent veterinarian.
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BTW, her pride may have been hurt but we claim dibs on the who suffered the greater injury here.
 

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BTW, her pride may have been hurt but we claim dibs on the who suffered the greater injury here.
Absolutely. You have dibs on top of dibs on top of dibs.  Her hurt pride is nothing compared to your loss.  I did NOT EVER mean to imply that in any way, shape or form.  I still, personally, want to do this woman great and permanent physical harm.  Against my nature, but I'm so emotionally invested here that I would be perfectly happy to kick her, repeatedly.  Not constructive, not conducive to furthering anything at all.  What I mostly want is to support and assist you with whatever decision you make.

~and a tiny voice whispers~  and kick her.  square in the fanny.
 

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I'm just now catching up with this thread and am so disappointed that you didn't get the verdict you deserve.  I suppose I can understand the judge wanting an expert witness but it does seem this was a place where a little common sense would have demonstrated the legitimacy of your position.  However, perhaps he is concerned about an appeal by the vet and an expert witness is one way to minimize that possibility.  From a legal standpoint, I wouldn't view this as a loss so much as a delay.  On the other hand, you have been through the wringer with this case and have already had a real impact on this vet's life to the point that it's highly doubtful she'll be as lazy professionally as she has been in the past.  In that sense, you made your point.  It doesn't vindicate Kitten but you have been a fantastic advocate for her - no one could have been more committed to this journey.  I think whatever you decide at this point, you can be sure that you were there for Kitten in a major way and may well have saved other cats from going through the same thing.

Have you decided what to do yet?
 
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kittens mom

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I'm just now catching up with this thread and am so disappointed that you didn't get the verdict you deserve.  I suppose I can understand the judge wanting an expert witness but it does seem this was a place where a little common sense would have demonstrated the legitimacy of your position.  However, perhaps he is concerned about an appeal by the vet and an expert witness is one way to minimize that possibility.  From a legal standpoint, I wouldn't view this as a loss so much as a delay.  On the other hand, you have been through the wringer with this case and have already had a real impact on this vet's life to the point that it's highly doubtful she'll be as lazy professionally as she has been in the past.  In that sense, you made your point.  It doesn't vindicate Kitten but you have been a fantastic advocate for her - no one could have been more committed to this journey.  I think whatever you decide at this point, you can be sure that you were there for Kitten in a major way and may well have saved other cats from going through the same thing.

Have you decided what to do yet?
If I had won we would ironically be in the same position. Either party in a New Mexico Magistrate court appeal which is an automatic trail de novo. I promise this woman would have appealed.

No. We have some time and the paperwork is fairly painless. I am in contact with an attorney and through them looking into a local referral service for an expert witness. All things considered the Judge gave the correct ruling.

I can always file the appeal depending on when they set pre trail and then the trial. While I feel confident now to really try the case because I learned where I got my backside spanked. I will have an attorney involved. There's a word but my brain is full of stuff.

I will repeat Madam Vet could have put this to bed by bringing in a fellow veterinarian instead of a USDA dog licensed dog breeder as a character witness. Even madam vet couldn't give a plausible reason why any vet, including her would give a dose greater than the almighty Plumbs she now uses online ( Thank the Goddess)

If I file this will probably not go past the deposition of the expert witness which her lawyer would attend.  At her expense.

My husband and I are giving this a few days. I don't have to write an appeal just ill out the form and pay the filing fee.

Now anyone who thought this was gong to be easy raise your hand.

She blinded my little girl. Using a 16 year old book. You cannot have a professional opinion if you're operating from resources from nearly two decades ago.

I would also like to state that her demeanor was beyond immature in that court room. She still doesn't get it. She made a mistake and this time there was an injured pet.

And while I am now aware of her thinking she is well aware that her case hinged on that expert. We'll see what happens here.

Also. thank you for caring.
 

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I was just wondering how things are going.  What did you decide to do?   I'm nosy.  
 

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I have not uet read this thread, but I intend to.

I just wanted to share my experience with veterinary malpractice/stupidity.

First let me start out by saying that I am not a vet, I have only volunteered/interned at my uncle's vet clinic. I do not profess to know everything about vet care.

But 2 weeks after we got our cat zazzie, (12 weeks old at the time) she began displaying symptoms of feline distemper. She was not eating, throwing up, sitting completely still in "loaf" position with her head down for hours on end, so she was really lethargic. She would whine whenever you touched her and her stomach was soooooo bloated even though she hadnt been eating and she had already been dewormed.

While I was interning at my uncle's clinic, I had seen several cats and kittens with distemper and as soon as I was seeing those symptoms in Zazzie, I called my mom, crying saying that we needed to get her to the vet as soon as possible (we live about 2 hours away from my uncle now so his practice wasnt an option). And she basically shrugged me off and told me that she'd take her to the animal hospital next to our local petco since we had a voucher for a free visit. So we take her there and the stupid vet doesnt even take blood tests. He basically gave her a once over and said she might have a URI or a cold and he gave her some fluids and sent her home. Well 2 days pass and she gets MUCH worse and so we decide to take her to our normal vet. As soon as she got there my vet took her blood and tested it. Her white blood cell count was only at 100. The vet said she was hours away from death when we brought her in. What was the cause, do you ask? FELINE DISTEMPER as I suspected all along! It is a miracle that she is alive and well now, three years later. She had to spend an entire month at the vet though. The vet was nice enough to foster her/take her home and give her round the clock care so we wouldnt have to pay to board her for a month.

We later learned that all 5 of her other siblings had died of distemper. They had been born with it, so the vaccine that they had all gotten was ineffective. Zazzie was the only one to survive.


I still cannot believe that the vet at the animal hospital was so clueless though. She CLEARLY was displaying all the symptoms of distemper. And he just wrote it off as a URI or a cold. Good thing we took her to a different vet because she almost DIED because of that vet's cluelessness.

This is Zazzie today :)

 
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kittens mom

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I am sorry I haven't responded. I am so happy your cat survived and it looks like thrived. We are never going to get rid of all the veterinarians that are lazy, or fail to keep themselves updated. Free vouchers may cover many things. When we took Mercy in after adopting her she had a free voucher that covered several things. I didn't use their vet. I knew they would skimp on the tests she needed. Mostly a complete fecal. It also covered her rabies shot which of course did not include the cat safe version.

What can we do ?

Always ask for your pets complete records. Not the summary. Those are usually available within 3 days. Most states have a statute on how long a vet has to hand them over.

I failed to ask for Kittens records on Aug 22, By the time I got them I have strong suspicions they had been fitted to her story instead of the actual visit. By the time we got to court and I heard her testify she had Kitten on her last breath and I quote. Ready to fall over dead. I have a long post coming in a few days covering this mess. She had months to fit the story to her agenda. Don't let it happen to you.

If you really believe your pet has been harmed by negligence report them to your states veterinary board. There is yet another review about my vet from hell online and knowing this vet and the description she gave of her encounter. I believe every word. Not only didn't she know how to read a test result she actually called the cops on the pet owners when they demanded the money back for some unneeded tests. Right down to describing how she looked at her vet books, laughed and then proceeded to google for an answer. This visit is post Kitten so she was on notice about her outdated books. I have contacted and encouraged her to file a complaint.

Even if your state's veterinary board decides you complaint does not rise to a violation the vet in question has to respond to their inquiry. Making it clear. this is not a way to harass veterinarians that can't deliver the result you wanted. Of fix everything. Sometimes things just don't work out. We don't want to terrorize good veterinarians who may refuse treatments they see as having the possibility of less than perfect outcomes. I had a horse that lived another good 10 years because of a last ditch Hail Mary Pass. We want vets to stretch their minds and give us every option without fear of being sued or reported. I'm talking about that in your gut. or in my case, in your face mistakes. You'll know it when you see it.

I want change but I will go to the mat for any veterinarian who has honestly tried to save an animals life and quality of life. And I want to see pet owners have the right to get just compensation when a bad vet ends up in court. BTW Good vets. The best vets will make mistakes. They just have the morals and common sense to make it right.
 
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kittens mom

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So this is a follow up to our legal proceedings. We, as a couple, talked about the pros and cons of pursing the trial de novo.   At this point it would be necessary to hire an attorney as that is the only way to get a veterinarian to act as an expert witness. And realistically I can understand their perspective. They have professional reputations they want to protect.   So wanting someone with a law degree to handle the proceedings is not unreasonable. So if we hired a lawyer and got the expert and paid for the deposition the question became would she fold? Or would she press it back into a full trial costing both of us thousands of dollars. Personally I don’t care about her spending money to defend her grossly negligent practice of veterinary medicine. I do have to consider our resources.   We also had to ask what more could we get from another trial.   Pursing it further would no doubt end in us winning.   If I learned one thing from the first trial it’s never go to court without an expert. Even if its sealed signed and delivered at the end of the day without an expert for the judge to listen to in court the veterinarian who is there because of their negligence becomes the expert witness.   What did we get from the trial ourselves?   Winning would have been awesome. Losing wasn’t as bitter as I thought it would be. As pro se I got to call this vet to the witness stand and she had to answer the questions.   From her hostile attitude to some outright childish displays of anger going so far as to slam a book down.   Given every opportunity she never once , nor did her lawyer ask her to explain why she wasn’t at fault aside from her claim she had never heard of cats going blind until the specialist from the VCA emailed her and pointed out her error.   In fact at one point she tried to say that Kitten’s eye ulcers, common from the virus that causes the URI could have caused the retinal toxicity.   I think even she knew how dumb that sounded and tried to retract it.   She made it clear that enrofloxacin is her Top Shelf drug. I’m guessing that means she uses it for everything.   If you are interested in learning more than this veterinarian there are numerous peer reviewed papers you can read the abstract on google scholar and some you can access the full paper.   Since 2005 the judicious use of this class of drugs has been preached. Of course she likely missed that boat too. A veterinarian that thinks using a 1999 Plumb’s third edition probably hasn’t ventured that far into that newfangled stuff.  Realize that most of the time she’s getting by with this cookie cutter treatment. Not every cat will go blind and dogs have a high tolerance to the drug enrofloxacin. Of course who knows what the long term effects were for some of her patients.   And of course there is no way for us to go back and demand all her records and call every pet owner that had a cat treated there.

How any veterinarian could be so behind, uniformed and worse totally uninterested in the harm she might cause by not practicing veterinary medicine in a manner that was current is beyond me.   To me personally it says a lot about how she really feels about pets.   I took her rude nasty attitude to be just having a bad day. Seems it’s her normal operating mode. Hey I don’t need a best friend. I just needed a competent veterinarian. And there were no clues to tip us off that she was like this. Operating under the guise of a small town vet heck you could almost hear the theme music from the old BBC show All Creatures Great and Small.

So the truth is another trial would just be spinning our wheels and spending money that needs to be spent elsewhere.   Peace in our home. Not for a long time. This quack left damage behind that’s probably never going to heal over something that another trial and victory would likely do nothing to help resolve.

It’s interesting but true in this case. She won but lost. We lost but won.

No matter how careful we are there is always someone, if not a veterinarian then someone in our personal lives that manage to get in and wreak havoc.   In this case we feel our time and efforts would be better spent trying to change the system that shields a veterinarian like this.   One continues to batter the memory of Kitten and the other honors her existence by trying to make sure there isn’t another victim that can’t find justice.  

Please don’t mistake this decision based on logic and real life as a reflection on how I really feel about this woman on a personal level.   It’s simply the adult reality of what you want to do vs. what you can do.  

There is also the personal impact this has had on our lives. I believe with all my heart but for walking into that cretins den of ignorance Kitten would be alive and happily curled up in a way that hogged the whole sofa. Or Bed. Or nesting on my computer chair the second I got up. We deal daily with the misplaced guilt of taking her to this sham of a veterinarian. It’s not like we thought this was the Mayo Clinic walking in. But all of the small town veterinarians I have encountered up to this piece of work have at least kept themselves current on basic animal care.   And if they don’t know or think your pet is too sick they will follow protocol and continue treatment while finding you a referral.   Not as this vet claims NOW send you home with a cat that she claims was ready to expire and nonchalantly tell you to call in three days if she isn’t feeling better.   Since we were not able to get the vet report until discovery though our court case months after at this point I’m not sure I believe a thing on it. She even went so far as to claim the reason she didn’t list how much enrofloxacin she injected was because it was assumed.   Yes that’s why every vet Kitten seen after kept asking how much she was give via injection. Seems it’s also common for her to interchange the words Baytril and enrofloxacin.   Of course if you’re living your veterinary practice via 1999 there was no generic enrofloxacin. Just the Bayer trademarked name Baytril. From the mismarked Rx bottles to the overdose I now see that my poor cat was in the hands of a total incompetent. And they don’t look the part. Sort of like serial killers. They can look competent, caring and have enough knowledge to sound like they know what they’re doing.   And the truth is no one can stop someone from behaving like this. Like drunks they seldom get caught the first time or even the 100th time they cruise down the road loaded. Or there are lots of unreported boo boos. This time the VFH messed up a beloved member of my family. On some level it would have been fun to haul her back into court. Mostly it would accomplish nothing or prove anything we don’t have proof of right now.

Yeah Madam Vet. We have a pile of your dirty laundry and a little casket containing the ashes of your victim. You know the little cat you seem to have never given a second thought to harming or shown the least bit of caring after your mistake at the very least took her eyes.  Oh and per your claim it’s a rare adverse effect. You betcha it is. As competent veterinarians know better than to use an excessive dose of enrofloxacin and instead when the circumstances call for it use a safer version of this class of antibiotic that has a high tolerance limit. Something you might have known if you’d cracked a book written in this decade.

Before the trail started her lawyer made a statement about this being about her professional reputation not the amount of money which was by his standards at least small.

Just my honest opinion here she has no professional integrity or reputation to protect. Any she might have had clinging to her fell off when she used medication in a negligent way and caused injury to her patient. Felt no remorse and just proceeded to tell us to leave her alone, go away.    Beyond her lack of any standard of care is her lack of compassion for what her ignorance done to Kitten and the grief she inflicted all of us.   Not once has she ever, even in the slightest expressed any remorse or caring over the damage she caused.   If she wanted to protect her professional reputation that would have been her standing there with a check book paying those ER bills and an apology instead of calling her lawyer and trying to cover up her mistake which is all she has been concerned with from the beginning.

I have mentioned her name and gotten some odd responses. Usually it’s ‘I ve heard some pretty weird things about her’.   I’m guessing there are a slew of victims out there.  I’m not shy. Someone asks me I tell them.   In fact I can show them the evidence.   Word spreads. Hopefully more and more will come out with their stories.

At the urging of a good friend I am putting together all the vet reports, her response to the NMBVM. And any evidence I have and sending a packet to the Attorney General for him to either handle as fraud or to be passed onto any law enforcement agency that might be applicable. I would love to see her clinic under investigation.
 
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kittens mom

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One of the last questions I asked the vet while she was on the witness stand and under oath.

Since Kitten have you or will you give a dose of enrofloxacin in excess of 5mg/kg/per day to any cat ?

I believe this is the point, or one of them, where she yelled. It was an emphatic NO!

And so I thought at least, at the very least because at this point I knew we were not likely to prevail and I was not quick enough to switch gears and see where I had an opening that would have stuck, that this vet had at least corrected her behavior.

And then last week I sort of stumbled on yet another review by a customer of hers that so mirrored mine. The nasty attitude and maybe something that really struck a chord in me.

That while diagnosing their dog she had walked by her books on the shelf, chuckled and then said it was easier to google the answer.  And my mind just sort of froze. Please tell me those ancient books weren’t still in her office.   It’s a small office BTW. So the customer would have had a good view of what she was doing on the computer.

I am going to post the link to those reviews. Mine which I added to hers after seeing the content and this vets continuing ‘odd ‘behavior. If a review like this would help you decide to use or not use a vet like this feel free to mark them as helpful. Unless you have actually interacted with this vet please do not leave a review.   Do not call her or clutter up her Facebook page.   If by some chance you have had a negative encounter with this veterinarian please leave a review and feel free to contact me though a PM here or through Yelp.

https://www.yelp.com/biz/all-creatures-vet-clinic-moriarty
 

micknsnicks2mom

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i totally respect your decision. your reasons are very sound. and i can only imagine what you've been through, how hard it must have been to arrive at this decision. 


your 'good friend' is very wise! sending a packet with everything in it to the Attorney General is excellent.

yelp reviews are some of the best reviews available online. yelp, along with the BBB, cannot be bought off -- paid to remove negative reviews.

sending more
's...
 

tallyollyopia

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You got what you wanted out of it; you wanted her to admit her guilt and her culpability. By saying that she was using an extremely out of date reference book, that's what she did. She has stated that she will never  give a cat that high of a dosage again, and you brought the veterinary board scrutiny on her. You did well. 
 

LotsOfFur

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Agree with all of the above! :hugs: you have made a big difference by sharing here; that's a lot of eyes opening and knowledge gained!
 
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