My Cat Kitten was blinded because of a bad veternarian overdosing her with Baytril

[micknsnicks2mom]

sending

to you for strength and endurance for May 12th -- early, because i probably won't be back here at TCS until sometime on thursday. we'll all be right there with you in spirit.

 

 

[donutte]

May 12th is a not so pleasant day (6 months for Lucky, 2 weeks for Sara) but hoping you'll have a good outcome. I'm flabbergasted at this veterinarian. I have to wonder if she truly believes she did no wrong whatsoever, or if this is all her lawyer talking.

 

[morganalefae]

Donutte all lawyers  portray their client as innocent with that said I think the vet needs a mental check because they are fricking nuts or just plain stupid for not keeping updated vet books etc. I hope everything turns out well for kittens mom and they nail the vet to a wall.

 

[kittens mom]

It is the attorney's job to vigorously defend their client. Failure to do that can lead to charges of legal malpractice.

I have finished laying out my questions for the good doctor, It will either show her stupidity or duplicity. In all likelihood aside from myself I she will probably be my only witness. I see no need to turn this into a side show.

I have tried to follow all the federal rules of evidence. the procedures for the court I am in and understand that my JOB is to present a valid case for property damage and the rightful reimbursement and other damages allowed. A court case is not a vendetta. How I feel about her personally is irrelevant right now. The support from the members of this board have been invaluable.

 

[kittens mom]

May 12th is a not so pleasant day (6 months for Lucky, 2 weeks for Sara) but hoping you'll have a good outcome. I'm flabbergasted at this veterinarian. I have to wonder if she truly believes she did no wrong whatsoever, or if this is all her lawyer talking.

I am so sorry for your losses.

There is no good or bad outcome in this. Because nothing restores what is lost.

It is a roadmap to do something better I hope. And that is to start a movement , not to change pets from personal property but to give them status as living property and the right for reasonable recovery when this happens. A change that protects pet owners and professionals alike. We all know the boondoggle medical malpractice has become. A clearing house for overpriced expert witnesses and lawyer who troll the hallways and accident reports looking for their next big commission.

Instead there should be a reasonable formula under laws for property damage for suitable recovery. One that doesn't put an unreasonable burden on the victims and work as a shield for the professionals.

On top of injury and or loss of our companion animals to negligence we should not have to endure months of trying to find a little bit of justice. No wonder so many give up or never try. Already crushed and grieving you have to wade through a legal system that the BAD veterinarians have learned, and count on to shield them from being held responsible.

Is it , will it be worth it. YES. No matter the outcome. you hurt my little girl and I came out swinging. I have no regrets.

 

[tallyollyopia]

 
I am so sorry for your losses.

There is no good or bad outcome in this. Because nothing restores what is lost.

It is a roadmap to do something better I hope. And that is to start a movement , not to change pets from personal property but to give them status as living property and the right for reasonable recovery when this happens. A change that protects pet owners and professionals alike. We all know the boondoggle medical malpractice has become. A clearing house for overpriced expert witnesses and lawyer who troll the hallways and accident reports looking for their next big commission.

Instead there should be a reasonable formula under laws for property damage for suitable recovery. One that doesn't put an unreasonable burden on the victims and work as a shield for the professionals.

On top of injury and or loss of our companion animals to negligence we should not have to endure months of trying to find a little bit of justice. No wonder so many give up or never try. Already crushed and grieving you have to wade through a legal system that the BAD veterinarians have learned, and count on to shield them from being held responsible.

Is it , will it be worth it. YES. No matter the outcome. you hurt my little girl and I came out swinging. I have no regrets.

I hope this shows, not just in your state, but everywhere that veterinary malpractice is just as serious as medical malpractice--and that there are just as many people who will fight to the end for justice for their wronged ones.

 

[kittens mom]

 
I hope this shows, not just in your state, but everywhere that veterinary malpractice is just as serious as medical malpractice--and that there are just as many people who will fight to the end for justice for their wronged ones.

Months of research show the majority of these cases are settled or the veterinarian picks up the bill for treatment to avoid ending up in this situation. All veterinarians will have the big one. A mistake kills or injures a pet. While consulting a lawyer to make sure any agreement is binding most veterinarians clean up their messes. Sometimes even when they aren't really at fault.

This vet serves a small community many who don't have the money or resources to haul their pet to an emergency hospital. There are places here where the internet doesn't reach. What she did to Kitten was barbaric. I doubt we are the only victims. It's important to understand that someone who had to struggle to pay a vet bill of less than a few hundred might have an even harder time paying just the filing fee and taking time off work to go to court. Let alone hire a lawyer.

Offering a simple no nonsense practice at affordable prices doesn't release her from the obligation to remain current on treatments or the drugs she uses.

 

[tallyollyopia]

 
Months of research show the majority of these cases are settled or the veterinarian picks up the bill for treatment to avoid ending up in this situation. All veterinarians will have the big one. A mistake kills or injures a pet. While consulting a lawyer to make sure any agreement is binding most veterinarians clean up their messes. Sometimes even when they aren't really at fault.

This vet serves a small community many who don't have the money or resources to haul their pet to an emergency hospital. There are places here where the internet doesn't reach. What she did to Kitten was barbaric. I doubt we are the only victims. It's important to understand that someone who had to struggle to pay a vet bill of less than a few hundred might have an even harder time paying just the filing fee and taking time off work to go to court. Let alone hire a lawyer.

Offering a simple no nonsense practice at affordable prices doesn't release her from the obligation to remain current on treatments or the drugs she uses.

None. However, there are a lot of vets who will attempt to scam their customers. When my grandmother had to put her dog down (the poor critter had a malignant tumor as big as she was), the vet didn't account for the fact that half the dog's body weight was malignant tumor  and as a result the poor thing was still alive three hours after receiving the euthanasia medicine. (When we went back to get the job done right--they took her "to the back" for almost an hour--the vet gave us a lecture on how the thing had already been dead and we needed to learn how to find a heartbeat. We could have pressed the issue--we all know he have the dog another dose of euthanasia--but we were afraid he'd charge us for the second shot and we knew Grandmother couldn't afford it.) 

 

[kittens mom]

 
None. However, there are a lot of vets who will attempt to scam their customers. When my grandmother had to put her dog down (the poor critter had a malignant tumor as big as she was), the vet didn't account for the fact that half the dog's body weight was malignant tumor  and as a result the poor thing was still alive three hours after receiving the euthanasia medicine. (When we went back to get the job done right--they took her "to the back" for almost an hour--the vet gave us a lecture on how the thing had already been dead and we needed to learn how to find a heartbeat. We could have pressed the issue--we all know he have the dog another dose of euthanasia--but we were afraid he'd charge us for the second shot and we knew Grandmother couldn't afford it.) 

That is horrific. And should never happen. In severely compromised animals they may not have sufficient circulation for the drugs to be effective. And it is the job of the veterinarian to know that.

This is why I want our companion pets to remain as personal property with a special status. When things go wrong it's not a payday. Pet owners want justice. Putting it within reach when a veterinarian makes a mistake will be encouragement for them to make things as right as possible and in effect keep most cases out of court. For a pet an expert witness should be the report(s) from another veterinarian and a requirement that the person asking for relief have filed a complaint with their state veterinary board. And that the board preserve even dismissed claims for one year. Just because the vet isn't found in violation of the veterinary practice act doesn't mean they didn't do something wrong. They should become sealed public records available only to the partied involved and the court.

I've known some real characters that had a DVM. None of them would have done this and then ground their feet into the ground making us pursue it.

 

[zed xyzed]

You have done your homework, and followed due process. I would be surprised and very disappointed if the outcome is not in your favour. I am glad that this painful process is coming to an end. I hope it will help provide some closure for you. 

All the best

 

[kittens mom]

 
You have done your homework, and followed due process. I would be surprised and very disappointed if the outcome is not in your favour. I am glad that this painful process is coming to an end. I hope it will help provide some closure for you. 

All the best

I don't believe in closure. It's something that feels good in the moment. You have a victory and you think that somehow things are settled. And after the new wears off you realize that all the hurt and anger are still very much alive and well. At that point it's what you do with the remains of the day. j

I will certainly update everyone when I know something

And thank you for the support.

 

[donutte]

Thinking about you and Kitten today...

 

[kittens mom]

So we lost. The judge simply felt we needed an expert witness. I am of course disappointed. We hit the brick wall that isn't supposed to exist in our courts. The big dollar sign.

She admitted to using a 16 year old book

She claimed she had never heard of retinal toxicity associated with cats. Tried to infer that the ulcers cats get from feline colds might have an effect on the retina. Bayer never sent her a dear doctor letter.

She admitted she was now using online medical references

and she said she would no longer use more than 5mg/kg/per day for a cat.

Yeah. I asked her that. On the witness stand.

I hope she can sleep at night.

So I don't feel like a loser. I don't feel like I let my little cat down.

I made a difference.

I doubt she will make this mistake again.

And it reinforces my believe that things gotta change.

I have 15 days to find an expert and appeal in district court. I will sit on this for a day and see. Or maybe my energy is better spent on changing things.

 

[donutte]

I'm not sure what "winning" would have entailed (was that reimbursement for the medical bills?), but something tells me you're destined a bit more for the "change" part. Regardless of whether or not you decide to appeal. At least that is how you seem to me. I often feel like I need to educate people (especially my vet) on things. My vet is really great about it too, he's always been receptive.

One thing I've decided need to be changed was that vets DO need the ability to determine whether drug doses are too high, or if drug interactions exist. And by that, I mean by using software that alerts them after plugging in all the meds they have. Things can be forgotten when your cat has a list of meds that rival that of my 78-year-old mom. Sara's binder apparently interacted with most of her meds, including the antibiotic she was on for the kidney infection, which was probably what allowed her to get the cold. When I went to pick up Sara's cremains, it was late in the afternoon, right before closing, so was just chatting with the vet. He was asking what I do for a living, and I told him (I work in QA for a pharmacy). And he said he really wished they had access to that kinda thing that pharmacies do that spit out drug interactions and what-not. DUR-type software would help with that kinda thing, as well as high dose alerts (which would have alerted your vet that Kitten's dose was WAY too high).

However, these things would obviously need to be tailored for animals, as a high dose in an animal is not the same as a human, plus I don't believe DUR goes by weight in humans. In other animals, you would need to.

 

[kittens mom]

I'm not sure what "winning" would have entailed (was that reimbursement for the medical bills?), but something tells me you're destined a bit more for the "change" part. Regardless of whether or not you decide to appeal. At least that is how you seem to me. I often feel like I need to educate people (especially my vet) on things. My vet is really great about it too, he's always been receptive.

One thing I've decided need to be changed was that vets DO need the ability to determine whether drug doses are too high, or if drug interactions exist. And by that, I mean by using software that alerts them after plugging in all the meds they have. Things can be forgotten when your cat has a list of meds that rival that of my 78-year-old mom. Sara's binder apparently interacted with most of her meds, including the antibiotic she was on for the kidney infection, which was probably what allowed her to get the cold. When I went to pick up Sara's cremains, it was late in the afternoon, right before closing, so was just chatting with the vet. He was asking what I do for a living, and I told him (I work in QA for a pharmacy). And he said he really wished they had access to that kinda thing that pharmacies do that spit out drug interactions and what-not. DUR-type software would help with that kinda thing, as well as high dose alerts (which would have alerted your vet that Kitten's dose was WAY too high).

However, these things would obviously need to be tailored for animals, as a high dose in an animal is not the same as a human, plus I don't believe DUR goes by weight in humans. In other animals, you would need to.

We would have won some money for the vet bills. Probably nothing else. What has happened is the old vet office is now a modern hospital or Dr. office with all the trappings. Along with the cost but your pet is still worth what it cost to adopt a new one. And when something goes wrong like it did with Kitten the vets skate on it because it's so hard to prove even a human malpractice case. Fixing the judicial process would mean streamlining what you have to produce for a VMP suit all the while protecting the veterinarians right to due process. Reality would be the case goes through a State Veterinary Board and a complaint once heard would receive a certificate of merit and then resulting investigation be subpoenaed to court if the owner is wanting to sue along with the investigation veterinarian to act as the expert for a reasonable fee.  An expert on the stand explaining why things went wrong negates the need for a lawyer , really for both sides. Good vets can hold their ground. They are their own expert witnesses. Some adjustments in recovery with CAPS on all non monetary damage. WE don't need the human boondoggle of Human Malpractice. A shark tank for lawyers and their stable of expert witnesses.

Yes they need good software. I have no idea why it isn't available. I thought the one tech at VCA said they used something to avoid interactions.

One thing you'll run into is the extra label use of human and veterinary drugs. Doses are recommendations since they haven't been species tested.

 

[donutte]

We would have won some money for the vet bills. Probably nothing else. What has happened is the old vet office is now a modern hospital or Dr. office with all the trappings. Along with the cost but your pet is still worth what it cost to adopt a new one. And when something goes wrong like it did with Kitten the vets skate on it because it's so hard to prove even a human malpractice case. Fixing the judicial process would mean streamlining what you have to produce for a VMP suit all the while protecting the veterinarians right to due process. Reality would be the case goes through a State Veterinary Board and a complaint once heard would receive a certificate of merit and then resulting investigation be subpoenaed to court if the owner is wanting to sue along with the investigation veterinarian to act as the expert for a reasonable fee.  An expert on the stand explaining why things went wrong negates the need for a lawyer , really for both sides. Good vets can hold their ground. They are their own expert witnesses. Some adjustments in recovery with CAPS on all non monetary damage. WE don't need the human boondoggle of Human Malpractice. A shark tank for lawyers and their stable of expert witnesses.
Yes they need good software. I have no idea why it isn't available. I thought the one tech at VCA said they used something to avoid interactions.
One thing you'll run into is the extra label use of human and veterinary drugs. Doses are recommendations since they haven't been species tested.

It's not available because veterinarians are not pharmacies. They practice as pharmacies to an extent, but they are still not pharmacies. Even human doctors don't necessarily have this type of software, it's mainly pharmacies that use it since humans on multiple medications may be seeing multiple doctors. Since people will generally use the same pharmacy for all their prescriptions, that makes sense. In comparison though, pet owners may go to multiple pharmacies to fill their pets' prescriptions based on who has the best price on a given day, so it makes more sense for the vets to the control in this case, I think.

I do agree, we don't need the human "boondoggle" as you put it. So much hoopla involved in human malpractice. But there should be something solid in place.

 

[zed xyzed]

I am shocked, Using a hugely outdated book for medical guidance itself should have been enough. Do you know how many newer versions are have been published since the one she used? Either way I think you made a difference; like you said she will not make that mistake again and has to take training. There are a lot of pet owners that will be thankful for your efforts. You showed courage and perseverance. 

 

[micknsnicks2mom]

  i'm just totally shocked...no words for how totally shocked.

i have serious doubts that that vet will do much to change her ways, just make efforts to cover her a**. i mean, she knows she's 'gotten away with it'.

but...she has the SVB ruling against her as public record now.

you've made a very big difference. and you have certainly done right by your dear Kitten.

 

[kittens mom]

 
I am shocked, Using a hugely outdated book for medical guidance itself should have been enough. Do you know how many newer versions are have been published since the one she used? Either way I think you made a difference; like you said she will not make that mistake again and has to take training. There are a lot of pet owners that will be thankful for your efforts. You showed courage and perseverance. 

While it was obvious as the elephant in the room guilt and the ability to find someone guilty of the obvious are two different things.

You also have to look at human malpractice. Even with the requirement of a certificate of merit very few cases are in favor of the plaintiff. Judges have to follow the law.

I have said from the beginning , this is a messed up system with the rights of the veterinarians not just protected by shielded unintentionally by the application of medical malpractice without the right to reasonable recovery.

My little missing angel got her day in court. She won in court. Being proud that she got off when admitting to using a 16 year old book and the damage that followed while claiming she never knew about the side effect until Kitten's veterinarian emailed her in 2015 isn't exactly a trophy.

 

[tallyollyopia]

 
So we lost. The judge simply felt we needed an expert witness. I am of course disappointed. We hit the brick wall that isn't supposed to exist in our courts. The big dollar sign.

She admitted to using a 16 year old book

She claimed she had never heard of retinal toxicity associated with cats. Tried to infer that the ulcers cats get from feline colds might have an effect on the retina. Bayer never sent her a dear doctor letter.

She admitted she was now using online medical references

and she said she would no longer use more than 5mg/kg/per day for a cat.

Yeah. I asked her that. On the witness stand.

I hope she can sleep at night.

So I don't feel like a loser. I don't feel like I let my little cat down.

I made a difference.

I doubt she will make this mistake again.

And it reinforces my believe that things gotta change.

I have 15 days to find an expert and appeal in district court. I will sit on this for a day and see. Or maybe my energy is better spent on changing things.

Now, on to the important question that I don't think anyone's asked yet: are  you going to get an expert witness?

Changing the subject a little, I was talking to RB about the judge's decision, and he thinks there might be a logical, reasonable decision for what the judge did: he thinks that it's possible the judge simply didn't feel qualified to judge the evidence as it stood without an expert witness on both  sides. (I'm assuming that the vet could serve as her own expert witness here.) So, it's possible that the judge simply wanted you to have all the ammunition you need to make the case stick good and proper, and it's not the power of the almighty dollar. (Of course, it's entirely possible that he's wrong, and that the judge WAS influenced by the dollar. Hard to say.)