Cat intros...should I keep separating when I hear growling?

[calicosrspecial]

It sounds like Skye is telling him  "I am the boss". The cat tree might be territorial ("that cat tree is mine") and possibly the bed action as well.

It is good that Max is resilient after the chase.

I don't get a sense it is Max, I think it is Skye adjusting to this new cat..

It is great that they can be together for a few hours. If possible if you can separate them before the chase starts that might be helpful. Keep trying to associate them with good things. Distract if needed.

Just keep up with what you are doing but try to separate them before they get into a chase if at all possible. Or distract.

I( have found it to be very normal for the resident to have to more difficult time adjusting. The more resident knows that the new cat is not a physical threat or disruptive to their food, play, and love source ad the more confident resident is the more accepting resident will be. But the fact they can be together for a few hours is great, a good sign for the future. 

 

[chloe92us]

UPDATE:  Things are not progressing and I'm not sure what to do.  Skye is still acting dominate/territorial and they are only having very short highly supervised visits, that seemingly go well (eat next to each other, lay down and groom after, chase da bird around together, etc) for about 5-10 minutes but then Max will go toward Skye's bed or tunnel tube and Skye gets into his agressive pose and chases him and jumps on him.  Neither seem to be too upset by the incidents (we do separate them, but Max wants to go right back).  Max does run under the bed to get away from Skye, but there isn't any injury although we do break it up right away.  I am convinced that if they are still acting like this after 5-6 weeks, we aren't going to see much improvvement (this is based on all the "bad" intro stories I read on various forums!).  It seems like if cats don't hit it off right away, they're not going to.  All of our past cats have always hit if off right away.

But now I'm thinking the problem is Max.  We chose him because at the shelter (it was the type where all the cats are free roaming in a big area), he was laid back and relaxed and never fought with any other cats there.  He came right to us, let us hold him, pet him, etc. His history is completely unknown since he was dumped there with his "mate" and their two kittens stuffed in a carrier.  He was neutered in December but all the hormones are gone (his pee doesn't smell). He's been to our vet for a clean bill of health.

HOWEVER, at our house he is NOT relaxed.  We have 2 dogs (Cavalier King Charles Spaniels who admittedly are a little hyper), a 11 year old son, and now the 2 cats.  It's not exactly a quiet place though we are pretty much homebodies.  When it's just Max & my hubby alone together (they're buddies and he gets up early---the dogs and Skye sleep with me, and hubby has been sleeping in guest room with Max) he's perfect.  Comfortable, laid back, happy.  

But as soon as I get up with the dogs, Skye, and our son, Max is anxious and swats at the dogs for just walking by.  The dogs are scared of him.  He also goes immediately into our bedroom which Skye keeps trying to tell him, is "his" territory. And just in the past few days, Max has become a little aggressive with me.  He "bites" me on the hands when he's sitting with me purring, before I even pet him.  Then when I do pet him, he gently bites my hands again.  The other night, he came up to me and swatted my legs and put his teeth on my ankle.  I have to admit, I'm a little scared of him even though these are gently bites, not even close to breaking skin.

I work in rescue (dog) and would never imagine sending an animal back to the shelter, but I'm considering it now.  It seems like he is not integrating into our household.  In other words, not just with Skye but I'm starting to feel he isn't the best match for our lifestyle.  I think he would be perfect in a quiet home without dogs or kids.  Should I give it more time or should I call it quits now?  I realize it's early, but I also don't want to drag it out if the match isn't a good one.

Help!  

 

[hbunny]

I just want to chime in and let you know about the ordeal we went through introducing a new neutered male in our house last year.  Resident cat was 12 at the time, and VERY territorial (to the point when he lived outdoors he would kill other cats).  Newcomer was a 2 year old at the time, former feral, brought indoors before we really were ready due to an injury.

It took us seven months, yes MONTHS....to introduce these two and the resident cat not attempt to kill the newbie.  He would even act all nice and lovey, eat right next to him, and wait until we turned our back and attack him.  I mean all out attack, with intent to maim. 

For the newbie, it was quite the experience, as he had to rapidly adjust to "indoor noises" like the icemaker dumping, the television, everything was overwhelming and scaring him to death.  And he is still, a year later, a 19 pound scaredy-cat. 

Don't give up.  Max is going through a HUGE adjustment.  He is in an unfamiliar place, dogs, child, and probably feels alone.  He may have come from a very quiet environment, or an outdoor environment, and not be used to normal "family" noises and activity.  We learned the hard way that some cats take ten times the amount of time you *think* they would need to adjust, whereas a dog or another animal would be over all of it in just a couple of weeks. 

Seven months.  That was how long before we could leave them together in any way.  We still have slapping sessions, but it is much better.  They are big buddies now, not what I would call BFF's, but big time buddies that you never see in separate rooms.  And this was in a quiet, 2 adult home, and we really are very quiet people other than the television or streaming music occasionally.

Have you tried the actual cat introduction methods in the articles on this site step by step?  We would have setbacks, and have to start all over with total separation from the beginning, moving on to site swapping, and then at the 7 month mark allowed them together.  It seriously took each and every step, very slowly, sometimes going back and starting over with it all.  You may be dealing with several separate introductions here--and have to first introduce to the dogs, with your other cat in a separate area, and let him get used to one thing at a time.  And I'm assuming your son is well versed on how to behave and handle animals, since you already have animals!!  Nothing needed there, but you might want to tell him to give him more space and respect his space a bit more than he usually would.

BTW....I have 2 that do the bites.  The newbie we had all the ruckus introducing is a love-biter, and he didn't start doing that until he had learned to trust me and relax around me.  From what I've read, it means they are completely comfortable with you and love you.  He may be telling you he loves you and to please take care of him in his new world.  We have another newcomer now into our home, and she was accepted from day 1.  Day ONE.  No issues.  We think it is because she is a female and very submissive, but the boys both love her.  She had been spayed 3 days before I brought her in (smelling like the vet's office too) and they both immediately tried to take care of her and love on her.  So weird.

Our story is here in these 2 threads if you want to read.  Below that is a link to a couple of articles on introducing cats.

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/314186/need-advice-is-my-cat-just-evil-embodied-or-am-i-overreacting

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/325599/7-months-in-update-on-introducing-two-cats

http://www.thecatsite.com/a/how-to-successfully-introduce-cats-the-ultimate-guide

http://www.thecatsite.com/a/the-ultimate-yet-simplified-guide-to-introducing-cats

 

[hbunny]

There are also others on here, like me, who have stories of very long, complicated introductory periods.  I definitely wanted to come back and add that yours REALLY REALLY doesn't sound that bad.  If they are tolerating being together while you are all home already, it sounds wonderful to me.   It sounds like they are truly starting to work things out.  Expect slapping.  Growling, while never good, doesn't always lead to attacks.  Usually it's a warning of "You better not or else.....".  If they are willing to spend time while "relaxed" around each other---well, that is a VERY good sign!!!

If you read through my story, you will see our tables turned for the positive when my newbie stood up to the old guy.  That was really our turning point.  Like others have said, when he stops acting like prey.....

 

[chloe92us]

 
There are also others on here, like me, who have stories of very long, complicated introductory periods.  I definitely wanted to come back and add that yours REALLY REALLY doesn't sound that bad.  If they are tolerating being together while you are all home already, it sounds wonderful to me.   It sounds like they are truly starting to work things out.  Expect slapping.  Growling, while never good, doesn't always lead to attacks.  Usually it's a warning of "You better not or else.....".  If they are willing to spend time while "relaxed" around each other---well, that is a VERY good sign!!!

If you read through my story, you will see our tables turned for the positive when my newbie stood up to the old guy.  That was really our turning point.  Like others have said, when he stops acting like prey.....

​I had read through your threads prior to posting (I think I've read EVERY story on this site!) and it's a great story (especially since I have a very soft spot for orange males!).  But it seems very similar to mine except for the intensity of the conflicts.  Yours were fine on their first day meeting too.  Mine were fine their first week, then we had a vet visit (like yours) and it all went downhill!  That's been weeks ago now.  This is why I'm so conflicted....part of me thinks Skye will just knock it off already and since there are some relaxed times too, it will be OK.  Yes, we went through the whole process, albeit too quickly.  They, like yours, sit right next to each other with the baby gate inbetween and play footsies between the bars.  For hours.   But they are only together 5-10 minutes sometimes before the posturing & chasing begins, other times it's hours.

 

[calicosrspecial]

Hi,

Please do not stress. there are a lot of positives in your situation. They can eat together, the don't actually fight, Max is resilient after the chase.

And it has been only 5 weeks. Introductions typically take a month to a year. The from day 1 happens but most of the time it takes a while.

It sounds to me like Max is a good cat in general and for the household. Skye sounds like a good cat, but Skye feels a little insecure with this new cat. It is totally normal for Skye to be acting this way.  It always takes the resident cat a while to adjust and add to that teh fact Skye lost his good friend just 6 months ago and there will be ups and downs. 

The introduction was rushed in my opinion and it is amazing they are doing as well as they are to be honest.

If at all possible I really suggest building their confidence. Keep feeding next to each other (associating each other with good things like food). Play with each of them separately in all areas of the house but especially where the chases happen. When one is playing distract the other one in another room with treats or something. If possible, add some cat trees and scratching posts. We want them to be able to own something and get their scent on it without needing to be on the same tree etc. If you see one of them focus on the other distract with play, maybe give treats. Anytime they avoid a negative encounter it is a positive. Finally, stay calm and confident around them and try to give them love (as long as you are not at risk of being bitten or scratched or hurt in any way). I can't exactly tell about how Max is biting you. It could be a love bite if the skin is not broken. But make sure he knows he shouldn't do that. Say "no" in a calm confident and forceful way. Not a yell. But let him know that is unacceptable. I have never met a cat that didn't understand they hurt. Cats are smart.

Get an old shirt and get Max's scent on it and place it near where Skye hangs out and sleeps. We want to let Skye know that Max is not a threat.

I honestly don't think your situation is that worrisome. We could always go the route of reintroduction as hbunny mentions. The fact they get along and don't actually fight and that Max doesn't see to feel threatened tells me it is probably not necessary. But we need to get Skye to feel more comfortable. Another cat tree where Max could go could be helpful so Skye doesn't feel so territorially insecure. And very importantly to distract so they don't have as many chases and so Skye sees Max as less of a territorial threat. 

This is very doable. When Max swats at the dogs it is defensive but the fact he doesn't attack is a good sign. He is just cautious as he would be in the wild. Your situation is definitely better than the average cat introduction in my opinion.

Finally, I can sense your stress and anxiety. Cats can take on our emotions so please try to be as calm and confident as possible around them. I know it is hard but I can honestly say I think your situation is not that bad and there are a lot of signs that tell me this will work out with about 98% probability. I would be very surprised if it wouldn't if we do what I mentioned in the post (building confidence, etc). 

I will be with you every step of the way. It doesn't happen over night but I like how Max is acting and that will help a lot in these 2 getting along.

I would like ti understand more about the biting (what happens before) and the swat of the legs (I am guessing he wanted to play). As long as it was not vicious (an attack) I am guessing it was love bite and play. I have had cats that did that and if you let them know you don't approve they tend to stop as they don't want to hurt you (if they did want to they would inflect a serious bite). Please remain calm and confident around them as they can sense fear or anxiety and then they can be more anxious and fearful and it can escalate. I deal with ferals and I have learned about my body language and how a feral responds to it.

Hang in there, we can make this work. I am highly confident. And I will be here for you. 5 weeks is not long, it does take some time sometimes.

 

[chloe92us]

Every time I post and get responses I feel so much better! I took about 20 deep calming breaths and regrouped. I am definitely contributing to their stress. They were great yesterday and this morning but I tried to end their visits on a high note. Skye is now approaching Max with a high HAPPY tail. He hasn't chased as much.

The goal moving forward is to keep their visits short and sweet so they can develop a play style.

Thanks again!

 

[calicosrspecial]

This is great. I LOVE to hear Skye approaching Max so confidently. So glad you are ending on a high note. The more positive the encounters are the more they will accept each other.

I think you are on a great path. There will be ups and downs but you will succeed!! Just keep up the great work.

We'll be here for you if you need us. So please feel free to ask anything anytime. 

 

[hbunny]

I can honestly say I contributed to their stress with my own during my very long intro period.  Hubby kept saying, when he had been home alone with them, that things were great.  I would come in and he would notice the difference.  My worry about them getting along was hindering it all.  I finally reached the "letting go" point and things improved.  They do pick up on it, much more than I ever imagined.

Shortstack also swatted and got "grabby" with me for a while after first getting comfortable in the house.  I was getting really scared of him at one point, but then figured out he was doing what he knew to get my attention and to try to initiate play and love on me.  He laid off using the grabby-claws after a while and he has now learned "inside manners" LOL!!

Honestly, your house sounds like a GREAT family environment!  He will get used to all of it, it just takes time.  I really think your entire situation is going great--like CalicosRSpecial said, much better than the average introduction.  Mine was what I consider worst-case-scenario almost, but we got through.  Here is a pic of my two boys now.  The one on the left is my old guy that was SO resistant--and he still won't allow him to wash him or rub on him, but this is their thing, hanging out together.  Now they are huge buddies--I swear one is never in a room without the other.  A year ago I would never, ever have imagined this was possible.  You could not have convinced me I'd ever see this.

fattymcatty.jpg

• hbunny
• Mar 6, 2017

 

[calicosrspecial]

love the picture hbunny!! Adorable!!

 

[hbunny]

 
love the picture hbunny!! Adorable!!

It's all still unbelievable to me, after all we went through!  They still have the slappy-sessions, especially if he gets up in his face and he doesn't want him to touch him, but it's more about Wurp teaching him respect for his elders now instead of the "I'm gonna KILL you" that we went through for months!

 

[calicosrspecial]

hbunny,

I think it shows what love, perseverance, and the right actions can do. I truly don't believe there are any bad cats.

The key is your learned where the line is, that is key.

Well done!! You saved another life!!

 

[chloe92us]

Real fur-flying fight tonight..... I was able to break it up immediately and they both rebounded quickly. I have them separated now and need to think about how to proceed tomorrow. This is a real bummer, we are leaving on Sunday for vacay and the cat sitter is going to have to keep them completely separate.

 

[hbunny]

Real fur-flying fight tonight..... I was able to break it up immediately and they both rebounded quickly. I have them separated now and need to think about how to proceed tomorrow. This is a real bummer, we are leaving on Sunday for vacay and the cat sitter is going to have to keep them completely separate.

Do you know what started it?  Figuring out the triggers was our key to helping the integration. 

After a point, we began to see that after a "true" altercation where fur was pulled out, once it was over, it was OVER.  It's like there were no grudges held.  Don't automatically think that it is a downfall...in our house there are still disagreements that we have to step in and intervene to end, but it has become very, very rare. 

What we did when that happened was immediate separation, we didn't give "extra" attention to either party, just separated.  Sometimes we would wait a day before trying again, sometimes we waited several days, and towards the end we only separated them for an hour or so.  We kind of judged it based on how they acted between the baby gates.  After some of the altercations, Wurp would sit and do the warning yowl through the gate (bad, bad sign), and other times, they went straight back to playing footsies. 

Night before last, apparently Wurp was just in one of his "I'm old and grumpy, leave me alone" moods, and Shortstack went running up to him to greet him as he came into the room and was all up in his face...Wurp slapped the crap out of him before he even knew what hit him, Shortstack did his "groundhog" stance, but then he immediately hunkered down in front of him.  Wurp just sauntered off then, it was over, he just got up in his face too fast for him.  In under a minute they were in the kitchen eating a snack out of the same bowl.  Go figure!

 

[chloe92us]

Yes, Skye does not like to share "his" stuff, is what always starts it. So it's definitely territorial. Max got in Skye's favorite tunnel toy, then ran out when Skye glared.  Then they glared at each other for too long, which I noticed and distracted them with da bird.  Then we moved to the kitchen, thought all was well, but then Max walked over and used Skye's scratching post and it was all over.  It wasn't a lot of fur, but there was fur, and yowling.  I was able to separate them using a compressed air thingie, then they ran into separate rooms. 

I picked Skye up, put him in our bedroom and closed the door, and shut Max in the guest room.  15 minutes later, they were both meowing to come out.  I kept Max on the guest wing side separated by a baby gate (that they could both jump right over but don't) and they were playing footsies after. 

Today my hubby is working from home and just sent me a pic of them laying on the bed together, in "Max's room". 

So, you're right, it's probably not the end of the world....BUT....I do not like that their incidents keep escalating.  That's my worry. 

 

[chloe92us]

Here they are just a few minutes ago.

IMG_4592.JPG

• chloe92us
• Mar 8, 2017

 

[hbunny]

I know your worry all too well.  Believe me, I've been there, constant worrying, what-if's, just continually I worried.  But honestly you can't.  You have to just take it minute by minute with them.  It's so difficult not NOT worry.  I was a basket case I swear!

From that last picture, if they can do that for ANY period or length of time, I think you have this whipped.  Seriously.  Once mine got to where they would share space, while relaxed, it just got better and better.  Yeah sometimes it seems like WW3 is about to occur, but usually it diffuses quickly.  I think your resident cat is trying to teach the newbie boundaries--my stuff, don't touch--but you can touch that over there.  That sort of thing.  Now we have a few things and spots in the house where they absolutely had to share, and those spots were the battle zones.  But I had to just absolutely let it go and quit worrying and let them work it out.  Unless blood is being shed, then we would step in.  But some things you have to let play out on their own.  To this day, Wurp has spots in the house that only HE has rights to, and Shortstack submits.  Tina definitely submits to the great and powerful Wurp.  He loves her because she says "Yes Sir" and doesn't touch his stuff. He just has to look at her crossways and she will leave the room.  Shortstack is a bit slow...haha...and Wurp still pops him sometimes over things.  But they all will pile up near each other and snooze, hang out, mainly all the time they are near each other.

If they can relax enough around each other to nap, in close proximity to each other....things aren't bad.  Not at all.  Because ours will not sleep, relax, or even stretch out if one feels threatened or one is contemplating an attack.  Mine would not shut an eye.  Those first 7 months, Shortstack slept where he felt he was best hidden and completely out of sight from Wurp at first.  He would get completely out of his line of sight, even behind floor to ceiling baby gates as a barrier.  And Wurp slept right outside the baby gate at Stack's "safe room", just out of fear that he *might* somehow get out and take down the intruder.  Both slept with one eye open in those spots for months it seemed.

Once they were able to spend supervised time together, usually neither would even lie down.  When they did get to where they would lie down, they each positioned themselves where they could see and definitely know where the other one was at all times--but never slept.  They never slept while loose in the house together during their "supervised visit" times, until Shortstack was "put to bed" every night in his safe room around 9:30. 

It was a long time, months, before they would allow themselves to sleep in the presence of the other.  But when they got at that stage, where they both got on the bed together and would nap.....I had to let go from that point. 

It honestly sounds like you are doing everything right!!  I mean the "time-outs" were common at our house for a long time, and like what you went through, it's all over in a few minutes.  They are SO very much like children.  I've gotten now to where if fur flies a bit, well, ok...so they got miffed at each other.  I only freak out now if there is blood.  I guess it's like the difference in having your 1st child and your 2nd...the "OMG he is eating dirt" to "yeah, well, wash off before you come in the house!!"

Please don't stress.  This is all part of it, and I SWEAR you are ahead of the game!!

 

[hbunny]

Here's all 3 of my little nuts, each with a personality as different as the seasons.  This was yesterday.

All 3.jpg

• hbunny
• Mar 8, 2017

 

[calicosrspecial]

Ok, the fact they rebounded well is VERY good news. We don't want a negative encounter but they will work it out given that they rebound so quickly.

Can you add some cat trees, scratching posts and tunnel? Just to relieve some of the focus though Max will still probably want Skye's stuff.

Keep trying to distract as well. And keep associating with good things (food especially). 

I think hbunny is exactly right. Don't worry, they are working it out. There are always ups and downs. My 7 yr olds just got into it yesterday, out of nowhere. Today they are great. Cats.

Hang in there, let us know how things are going. 

 

[chloe92us]

Update: so we left on Sunday afternoon for a few days vacation. We divided the house with "Alcatraz"-like stacked baby gates, and the pet sitter texted me that both cats greeted her at the door on Monday morning! I still don't know how Max escaped, but There was no fur, no lamps knocked over lol, and Max ran and hid since it was a new person to him.

She couldn't find him, so had to keep all the gates down so he could go back to his boxes, food, etc. on his side of the house. I was panicked, but figured this was the time to test if my stress was contributing. We were gone until Wednesday. I figured when we got back, they would either be BFFs or enemies. We got neither. They're better, but still kind of the same.

They are trying to figure out who is top cat. Max isn't backing down when Skye tells him to get off the cat tree etc. I just told Skye to knock it off, and he jumped down. Will they figure this out eventually? How do cats determine hierarchy? Or is there such a thing?