Need advice--is my cat just evil embodied? Or am I overreacting?

hbunny

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Hello, I'm a newbie and in need of help.  I am experienced with cats, but this situation has me grasping at straws.  I need serious advice!

This may be long-winded, but to help you understand the personality I'm dealing with I have to give you some backstory.  I have an 11 year old neutered male who is my baby.  He was a tiny kitten that came to my house from the neighbor's barn years ago with a botfly larva in his neck.  I doctored him and got him healthy, yet let him stay outside as he was not my cat (neighbors very neglectful of their animals, even their livestock they raised to sell, very sad).  I earned his trust and loyalty, and he continued to visit me off and on for over a year, when he came up hurt very badly from a fight.  Again I took him to the vet, got him healed, and got him neutered in the process.  He went back to live in the barn.  Flash forward 5 years--I divorced, moved, and I took him with me.  He lived outside very peaceful in a rural setting until he went missing for 3 days about 3 years ago.  He has been an inside, retired mouser ever since.  I love him dearly, and he trusts me and my new husband with all his heart.  Please note this:  He has cohabitated with two other neutered males over his lifespan with no problem.  I had a roommate for a while who brought her cat, then my son had a cat for a short period of time in the house, but he took him with him to college.  He NEVER had a problem with them.  A bit cautious, but not aggressive towards them.  But, he was much younger then.

We had a feral male kitten that appeared and kept hiding in our shed and in our garage a couple of years ago.  Well, being the sucker that I am, I fed him and gained his trust.  He became a regular, and we considered him our outdoor kitty.  Big snuggler who loves to be hugged and loved.  Two weeks ago he came up bloody, with a front leg the size of my forearm (abscess from bite).  Well, here I go again--took him to vet, got him neutered since he is now 2 years old and there are roaming females in our neighborhood, with full intention of keeping him inside to heal for a week then letting him out to resume his life.  No problem.  Will bring him home and keep him in the back bedroom until he heals.  Well, you know how the best laid plans go.  Hubby loves him dearly, and said "Let's just keep him inside!" using the excuse that we spent so much money on him, and if he lives outside again he will get run over, etc. etc.  Well, ok.  We will try.

My existing cat disagrees.  I started off months ago letting the younger inside to feed him, and they saw each other with 2 baby gates between them.  Inside cat is well aware of outside cat, they are very familiar with each other, but never had been face to face.  They ate dinner nightly inches apart with the gates between them.  Inside cat would always yowl and swat through the gate after he finished eating.  This has happened daily over the past 3 months at least.  The outside cat, although a much larger cat, is very submissive and a true "scaredy-cat", in every sense of the word.  He would sit there and take it when he bopped him.  Never growled, nothing aggressive in return.  I picked him up Saturday from the vet after being doctored, tested, vaccinated, and neutered.  They said all was and went well.  Saturday night we put the baby gates up in the hall.  Inside cat at one end of house, outside cat had the other end.  Inside cat had access to sleep on the bed with us as it is his usual routine.  Inside cat woke us at 3am, somehow got to the other side of the gates, and was standing over the "intruder" yowling at him, but no fur flying, no swatting.  I immediately grabbed him by the scruff and put him on the other side of the gates and resituated the top one.  He immediately scaled the gates like Spider-Man!  It was a sight to behold how he scaled those gates!  Long story a little shorter, he had to be locked in our bedroom.  Sunday I tried again.  All was well ALL DAY!  They didn't get chummy or anything, they ate in the same room, and there was only one time inside cat yowled and postured at outside cat--I squirted him with water and it stopped.  They stayed loose together all day under my close supervision, of course.  Sunday night we separated them.

Well, night before last we had a knock down drag out altercation.  No one hurt, no fur pulled out, but loud and very active--they went through 3 rooms with inside cat literally stalking and chasing him down.  They rolled once.  Outside cat got cornered in our fireplace behind the fake logs in there and peed (ewww, still working on that odor).  Since then we are alternating them--one in solitary in a bedroom, the other full run of the house.  One goes in, the other comes out.  I bought a Feliway multicat diffuser.  I bought a Sentry calming collar, but it snapped in two when I pulled it out of the package.  Inside cat is still absolutely murderous when we let him out of the bedroom to have the house to roam when it is his turn.  He will sit in front of the bedroom door and stare at it.  Every so often he will yowl at the door.  He peed on the mat in front of his litter box, and outside cat has never used it, I guess that was left as a warning to him (thank goodness his pee doesn't smell at all).  I do understand that I have to do this much slower.  I guess I got encouraged by the good Sunday interactions.  I am just concerned that my cat is just an ass, and will never accept the big snuggle baby that I have grown very attached to.  Am I just expecting too much too soon?  Does anyone have any other tricks/tips?  I am just so depressed and stressed out myself over this, and I'm normally very calm about animals--even fighting animals!  Thanks in advance-- and thanks for reading!
 

catpack

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When the other cats were around was your boy still going outside? As an ex-barn cat he likely had to fight for territory. Being indoor/outdoor he had more space and more likely easier to share. Being indoor-only, the house is his territory.

As for the current situation, I really believe you have just moved too quickly with introductions. In addition, new kitty still is full of testosterone and your kitty knows this. It takes a full 60 days for hormones to complete leave the body post neuter.

I am going to attach an article about how to introduce cats. It has helped MANY people of TCS.

http://www.thecatsite.com/a/introducing-cats-to-cats

The first step is to confine the newbie to his own safe room. Remember to move at the cats' pace and wait until there is no verbal or body aggression before moving to the next step.

It typically takes a few weeks to a few months to get cats to cohabitate in the same space. Though, some take up to a year or more.
 
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hbunny

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CatPack, thanks so much for that link and the post.  I am definitely keeping them apart for a while (probably a month) without them even glimpsing each other.  And new kitty definitely still has testosterone--his pee is horrid, where my old kitty's has no odor to me.  

Old kitty (his pic is my profile pic) seems to stew and brew the entire time we confine him to our bedroom and let new kitty roam the house and explore, because when I go back and let old kitty out, he slinks and plunders every nook and cranny in the house until he zeroes in on the door new kitty is behind.  There is no mistaking he is mad!  Very mad because I locked him in the bedroom!  Takes many treats to bring him back to purr level and keep him from sitting with his butt towards me ignoring me. It's like he uses the time in solitary just sitting and plotting...and dwelling on it and getting madder.

Another note---he is partially deaf.  He can only hear loud noises (hand clapping loudly, yelling his name).  I am sure this adds to his frustration.  That was part of the reason I made his butt live inside!

Do you think that I should keep them apart longer than a month?  Honestly, it is so much easier on us and seems less stressful to them (and us!), I just hate that one is always confined alone.  I hear pitiful meows occasionally from whoever is in solitary.  There is a large kitty tree in the room where I confine new kitty and a window to look out, and old kitty's solitary room is our bedroom--that's where he spends all day sleeping every day anyway, and he has a table and a window to look out.  I guess I just feel guilty putting one in solitary.  I feel really bad especially doing it to old kitty.  New kitty I feel bad because he got his butt whooped, I stuffed him in a carrier and he went to the vet where he was scared and lost his family jewels and got lots of shots, then he comes back to being bullied!  I really feel like a heel over all of it.

Is my old kitty just reacting normally to an intruder?  I mean I hate to believe he is equivalent to the son of Satan, but before I retired him to the inside he cleared our property of about 20 stray cats.  They were gone within a week after I moved, all of them gone, he is that territorial.  He was a mighty scrapper in his younger days, even after I had him neutered.  But he fully accepted his two temporary roomates, so far as to allow them on his kitty trees and lay with them looking out the windows. I always wondered why he allowed that in the house, but no others outside on "his" property.  Your explanation makes perfect sense to me now!
 

catpack

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You will have to take cues from both cats as to how to proceed. I would keep new kitty confined until the testosterone is out of his system, that way hormones (or their smell) are playing into the issue.

There is at least one member on here that had a cat that resides in her own room, and quite happily. This cat simply doesn't get along with the others.

For new kitty, I would do my best to make his room as stimulating as possible...a cat tree/wall shelving, a bird feeder outside the window if possible. Toys that he enjoys.

Our rescue has a Bengal mix that can be aggressive around other cats, so he has his own area. We're looking at getting him a ball pit (yes, like for a little kid!) and, hopefully soon, a cat wheel to burn off excess energy.
 

margd

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CatPack has the cat introductions advice covered, but I thought I'd add that you might consider using one of the calming agents available to encourage harmony in your home.  I just posted some information in a thread I see you also posted in so will refer you there:  http://www.thecatsite.com/t/314146/new-and-old-cat-help-please    Especially check out the part on the use of Feliway. It's based on a facial pheromone that cats emit when they are happy or content and is available as a diffuser or spray.  Here's their website for more info:  http://www.feliway.com/us/#redirected
 
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hbunny

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Margd--I have a Feliway diffuser, but I don't think it has had time to really start working yet, I just plugged it in yesterday.  I put it in the room where the "action" seems to always occur, but after reading what you posted I wonder if I need several diffusers.  I got the MultiCat kind--should I have gotten the other formula?  I saw two kinds at PetSmart, the MultiCat and there was another one for inappropriate behavior, but I got the MultiCat. 

I also got a Sentry calming collar but it snapped in two when I was trying to unfurl it.  I'm going to try to rig it into some sort of collar for my aggressive one.

I read so many good reviews on the Feliway!  I am hoping it will have some impact on my meanie!

I think I'm going to go ahead and splurge and get some of the SpiritEssence Peacemaker.  I read somewhere on this board someone had successful results with that formula.

I got excited when I saw the cat behavior consultant link--but sadly none within 300 miles of me.  Here's a pic of my older guy with his "I want to kill" look!

View media item 328670
 

margd

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I think the MultiCat should be fine.  Here's Feliway's page on their MultiCat product  - it sounds appropriate to me.  http://www.feliway.com/us/NEW-Feliway-MultiCat   

That's a shame about the collar.  This is the second time I've read about the collars snapping in two right away.  Can you exchange it for a new one?  Please let us know how it works.  

As for the cat behaviorist link - you can also google "cat behaviorist" and your zip code.  There might be someone near you who isn't on that list - just check their training and check for references and on-line reviews.  Also try asking your vet for a recommendation.  They often know the good ones in the area.  

Your old guy does look like he means business.  He looks like this >>>>>  
   Awful cute, though.  
 
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hbunny

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Around the house we always say he's a turd...but he's our turd and we love him!   I'm willing to try anything--and I will.  I think I just got really overly optimistic Sunday when they played quiet kitty all day with each other.  They had seen/smelled each other for 3 months so I was hoping...but I think a lot of it has to do with the new one still having the testosterone smell too.  His pee is enough to make you pass out!  The vet said it would be bad for 6-8 weeks until his levels dropped down.

They have touched noses a few times and walked away from each other.  I am hoping some time apart, then another sloooow introduction--plus the Feliway--will help. 

Another note--we have a VERY elderly female cat who is senile, we say she has the kitty Alzheimer's, who now lives in the laundry room (small room that she claimed as her "safe" room.  She has a baby gate and occupies over half of the laundry.  She is happy and we aren't willing to put her down because she isn't sick, just old and senile.  Both males completely ignore her.  She is 18 and was my husband's before we married and my older boy has never made any sort of advance on her at all.  As aggressive as he is, he runs from her!  Very interesting fact I left out, sorry!

Thanks SO much!  I really appreciate some reassurance and advice.  I can't really talk to my coworkers--they already think I'm the crazy cat lady (they are multi-dog owners).  And I suppose I am
 

margd

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Around the house we always say he's a turd...but he's our turd and we love him!   I'm willing to try anything--and I will.  I think I just got really overly optimistic Sunday when they played quiet kitty all day with each other.  They had seen/smelled each other for 3 months so I was hoping...but I think a lot of it has to do with the new one still having the testosterone smell too.  His pee is enough to make you pass out!  The vet said it would be bad for 6-8 weeks until his levels dropped down.

They have touched noses a few times and walked away from each other.  I am hoping some time apart, then another sloooow introduction--plus the Feliway--will help. 

Another note--we have a VERY elderly female cat who is senile, we say she has the kitty Alzheimer's, who now lives in the laundry room (small room that she claimed as her "safe" room.  She has a baby gate and occupies over half of the laundry.  She is happy and we aren't willing to put her down because she isn't sick, just old and senile.  Both males completely ignore her.  She is 18 and was my husband's before we married and my older boy has never made any sort of advance on her at all.  As aggressive as he is, he runs from her!  Very interesting fact I left out, sorry!

Thanks SO much!  I really appreciate some reassurance and advice.  I can't really talk to my coworkers--they already think I'm the crazy cat lady (they are multi-dog owners).  And I suppose I am
Ha ha ha!  You don't know how many of us are considered crazy by coworkers, friends and family!   That's one great thing about this site.  Everyone here gets it!  
 
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hbunny

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Update--today I purchased another Feliway diffuser and plugged it in at the other end of the house. I'm giving them a week or two before I expect any possible results. But- I wanted to hop on and let you all know I got another Sentry calming collar. This one was more flexible and didn't break like the other one did. My old meanie hates it! He ran from me when I put it on him! And he loves his regular collar with his tags. I let him go, thinking he would get used to it. It is a rather nasty, flaky, powdery thing, but if it helps I thought I'd leave it on him. He came and got on the couch with me a few minutes ago and has since passed out asleep. He acted almost drugged. After a few minutes of sitting here next to him I've decided I'm trashing it. I can't stand the smell it is so strong and lavender-ey! Whew it's giving me a bad headache and it's so strong I can taste the odor. I feel so bad because I can only imagine how overpowering it is to his poor nose. Is there any other calming collar brand that isn't this obnoxious? Here's a pic of it.
 
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hbunny

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Here is a pic of my couch where I took it off of him. He sneezed a lot!
 

roguethecat

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careful with those collars - there is no safety catch (cats can get themselves hanged if unlucky) and, personal experience, cats can be severely allergic to it. Sassy Josephine had had both eyes nearly swollen shut after 3 days wearing the thing, took an expensive vet visit and anti-inflammatory shots to get her normal again.

Better stay with the tried-and-true introduction methods, especially the treat one (everyone gets a treat within sight of each other, then closer and closer)
and the playing toy one (one stringy toy, moved by the human servant, one cat at each end).

good luck and thank you for rescuing them!
 

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You've had some great advice already here. Hang in there - things will get better. Keeping them apart for a month (or even more) is just fine. My girl was separated for two months, and that was considered a quick introduction!

One thing no one's suggested yet is Composure. That's definitely worth trying. It's a natural, food based calmer and can really help in tense situations like this.

Stay patient and move at the cats' pace. There is no timetable. Extra time spent on introductions is NEVER time wasted. Thank you for saving these gorgeous (if difficult) boys :)
 
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hbunny

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I'll be on here daily. Every time I get discouraged I read something here that lifts me up again! Right now the ongoing separation is keeping us all much less stressed. Tonight it's Shortstack's night to have full run of the house, while my old dude Wurp shacks up in our bedroom. I'm noticing they aren't sniffing everything the other has touched anymore. Wurp would spend an hour rubbing his face on everything and sniffing everything when it was his turn to be out, at least he has stopped that. Now he just checks the other bedroom door, and seems satisfied that Shortstack is in there and goes about his normal cat business. Maybe a month of this will improve his bad cattitude! Thanks everyone for listening to me whine!
 

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Hang in there.  We're with you!  It occurs to me that the neutering is recent.  New Baby may still have that "full tom" smell to him for a bit, and Old Baby might be reacting to that, at least in part.  By the time you go through the introduction exercises recommended above, that should have resolved itself, should it be adding to your woes.

NEVER EVER be afraid to ask any question, or offer any comment here!  Make us your new hone away from home,  That's why this place exists, and I'm one who discovered it fairly recently.
 
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hbunny

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Another update.  We are still site-swapping, which is going pretty well.  At least I think so.  Our plan is to do this for a month, probably longer, before we let them glimpse each other again.  When my old guy is out with free run, he will go sniff the door to the room the other is behind, then goes about his usual cat business.  He is calm and acts like everything is fine.  When my newbie is out, he will go sniff the door my old guy is behind, and then go about his business.  It's like they each have to confirm where the other cat is before they go do their own thing, then they seem satisfied and don't give it a second thought. 

BUT....this morning, my old guy was out and my new one in the bedroom, and my old guy starts popping the door with his paw.  He sat outside that door staring at it, trying to use the FORCE to blow the door up (he's a Jedi Ninja Master, after all).  It's like he was suddenly infuriated that the new guy was behind the door, and this has been going on for almost a week without him acting like this.  He sat outside the door this morning for a little over an hour looking like he was just stewing with steam coming out of his ears.  He finally huffed off swishing his tail.  I don't know, maybe they were cussing each other through the door or something.

On a good note--my previously feral newbie has become an indoor gentleman.  He has wonderful litter box manners, no pee or poop anywhere in the house (I check with a black light!) and he is becoming more comfortable exploring rooms he hasn't been in much.  The odor of his pee is getting so much better!  It nearly knocked me down his first couple of days after he was neutered!  I sincerely hope and pray they can share the house one day. 
 

Mamanyt1953

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In all honesty, it can take months to get two adult cats to really accept each other, and tons and tons of patience, but it can almost always be done.  Just hang in there, and keep us posted! 
 
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hbunny

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Thanks, they are my babies! If it takes months, we can do it. I just can't believe my old dude is so spiteful. The neighbor cat hopped in our house this morning and finished up his food, he just walked away. But their cat is a heavily preggo female. I still wonder if part of his anger is that he smells Shortstack as still being an intact tom. He never was this hateful around his neutered former buddies. But I can wait as long as it takes!
 
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