Why can't Sebastian handle homemade food?

claud · Nov 7, 2014

i just recently gave my cat fresh cooked liver, just on a whim because I had cookd it for myself. I mean I only gave him about a tablespoon, mashed up. But he had a bad reaction in the next day or two (though I'm still unsure of the cause) and had hives all over his front legs.

I kept thinking but the liver was from Whole Food and very fresh. He gobbled it up, but you are making me think mine had a reaction to the liver.

He is FIV postive and super sensitive to stuff for that reason.

goholistic · Nov 11, 2014

Despite my aggressive attempts to treat the diarrhea naturally, it didn't even make a dent in his improvement. He was put on antibiotics last week and results were seen very quickly. I'm repopulating his gut with good bacteria through probiotics.

Sooooo...it sounds like my only option is to force the liver upon Sebastian by slowly introducing it in very small amounts in the hopes that 1) he adjusts to it and/or 2) I determine the maximum amount he can tolerate? I don't think I like that plan. LOL.

Theoretically speaking, let's say that Sebastian can only tolerate half the amount of liver in the recipe linked to in my first post. Where does that leave us if the recipe is then incomplete?

mschauer · Nov 11, 2014

GoHolistic said:
Despite my aggressive attempts to treat the diarrhea naturally, it didn't even make a dent in his improvement. He was put on antibiotics last week and results were seen very quickly. I'm repopulating his gut with good bacteria through probiotics.

You mean the antibiotics cleared up the diarrhea??? If so, doesn't that mean it was caused by a bacterial infection and not liver??? I'm confused...

goholistic · Nov 11, 2014

mschauer said:
You mean the antibiotics cleared up the diarrhea??? If so, doesn't that mean it was caused by a bacterial infection and not liver??? I'm confused...

Diarrhea can have many causes, food intolerances being one. Isn't that why we encourage everyone to transition foods slowly? Isn't diarrhea, by definition, an imbalance of gut bacteria? Too much of the bad or not enough of the good? It doesn't have to be an infection. Unless you think he got an infection from the food? The antibiotic brought the bad in check while I replenished the good with probiotics. That's how I understood it.

I'm not sure if these questions are being asked in attempt to convince me and others that the home-cooked is not the cause of the diarrhea. I came here to see if others have similar experiences with liver and it has been said that some kitties do have issues with liver, so it doesn't seem out of the question.

Much of my life is consumed by this cat. I document everything he ingests. I only change one thing at a time. I watch him eat. I inspect his poo. I weigh him weekly. Etc, etc. I am confident in saying that there was something in the food that didn't agree with him considering he was perfectly fine prior to feeding it, developed symptoms 24 hours after feeding it, and nothing else in his regime had changed.

mschauer · Nov 11, 2014

GoHolistic said:
mschauer said:

You mean the antibiotics cleared up the diarrhea??? If so, doesn't that mean it was caused by a bacterial infection and not liver??? I'm confused...

Click to expand...

Diarrhea can have many causes, food intolerances being one. Isn't that why we encourage everyone to transition foods slowly? Isn't diarrhea, by definition, an imbalance of gut bacteria? Too much of the bad or not enough of the good? It doesn't have to be an infection. Unless you think he got an infection from the food? The antibiotic brought the bad in check while I replenished the good with probiotics. That's how I understood it.

I have a bad habit of saying 'infection' when I mean bacteria overgrowth and that is what I meant in this case. It also seems to be what you mean by 'an imbalance of bacteria'.

I'm not sure if these questions are being asked in attempt to convince me and others that the home-cooked is not the cause of the diarrhea. I came here to see if others have similar experiences with liver and it has been said that some kitties do have issues with liver, so it doesn't seem out of the question.

Huh??? I have no idea where this is coming from. The only intent behind my questions is to try to help you understand what is causing the diarrhea. As I said before if liver causes him to have diarrhea then by all means don't feed it. But if bacteria overgrowth has been determined to be the cause then I don't understand why you view liver as the problem.

I'm happy you feel you have a handle on the situation. Best of luck to you and Sebastian.

goholistic · Nov 11, 2014

mschauer said:
Huh??? I have no idea where this is coming from. The only intent behind my questions is to try to help you understand what is causing the diarrhea. As I said before if liver causes him to have diarrhea then by all means don't feed it. But if bacteria overgrowth has been determined to be the cause then I don't understand why you view liver as the problem.

I am very grateful for all your help, @mschauer......truly.

It would be ridiculous for me not to appreciate of all the research and work you put into helping people's kitties, including mine.

It was a hunch based on process of elimination. I didn't know for sure if liver was the cause, which is why I came on here asking if it was possible and had some follow-up questions as to what to do next if it did, in fact, turn out to be a problem.

I believe the "imbalance" could have come from the food intolerance (i.e, liver too rich?). I'm not sure where else would it have come from.

And for something in the TMI department, when he had diarrhea, I could actually see the eggshell powder in the liquid poo. Is eggshell supposed to be digested? Or did everything just go right through him?

mschauer said:
I'm happy you feel you have a handle on the situation. Best of luck to you and Sebastian.

I've got the diarrhea under control, yes. But I would be really disappointed to give up, which is why I was asking what my options are.

This cat means the world to me, and its so difficult to strike a balance between what's good for him vs. what he can tolerate vs. keeping him comfortable and happy.

mschauer · Nov 12, 2014

I know you are probably very stressed by Sebastian's condition and only want answers.It's just that solid answers just don't seem that clear to me.

If Sebastian's diarrhea was caused by a food intolerance then the diarrhea should have cleared after the offending food left his body. If on the other hand the diarrhea was a result of bacterial overgrowth the diarrhea would continue until the overgrowth was treated or else somehow righted itself.

That Sebastian's diarrhea only resolved after treatment with antibiotics tells me the problem was bacterial overgrowth and not food intolerance.

From what I've read there could be a chicken and egg problem though. While most sources say that bacterial overgrowth can lead to food intolerance a few say that bacterial overgrowth can be triggered a by food intolerance.

Sebastian's pancreatitis throws in an additional complication. Bacterial overgrowth has been associated with chronic pancreatitis in some humans.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10216811

INTRODUCTION:
The presence of an intestinal bacterial overgrowth (IBO) in patients with pancreatic insufficiency has been recently suggested to justify the worsening of their clinical conditions despite pancreatic enzyme supplementation.

...

CONCLUSIONS:

IBO is frequent in patients with pancreatic insufficiency, particularly in those with a history of gastroduodenal surgery.

It could be that Sebastian's main problem is bacterial overgrowth caused by his chronic pancreatitis. Maybe liver is a trigger though that makes the overgrowth worst.

My Coco has had 2 bouts of bacterial overgrowth since starting on a raw diet. After the second, recent, bout I started adding probiotics to her food in the hope of preventing future episodes. It was 4 years between her two outbreaks so only time will tell if the probiotics work. But within a couple of days of starting the probiotics I noticed she seemed friskier. It isn't a huge difference in her behavior and it could be my imagination but even now, months later, I still have the impression that she is happier and more energetic. Given her history of chronic loose stools prior to going on a raw diet maybe her gut flora needs ongoing support to stay completely healthy.

I think I understand from your previous posts that you don't give Sebastian probiotics on an ongoing basis, right? If not, then I would suggest, with your vet's approval, doing so. Given the connection between chronic pancreatitis and bacterial overgrowth it might help him regardless of whether or not you decide to feed him liver.

I understand that you see a clear association between feeding liver and the onset of diarrhea with Sebastian what ever the reason. Frankly only you can decide whether you want to risk feeding it again.

goholistic · Nov 14, 2014

mschauer said:
What do you think?

roguethecat · Nov 16, 2014

just a thought... adult mouse (or rat) is a terrific probiotic. They have ground mice at haretoday if you'd rather try in that form

abbyntim · Nov 16, 2014

I don't have any ideas, just wanted you to know I've been thinking of you and Sebastian. I know he means so much to you. I feel the same about Tim; I would do anything for him. In fact, I am now shopping for a freezer just for Tim, as his stuff is taking over half of our freezer space. My husband says I should build a second kitchen, just for Tim.

Anyway, I keep going back to commercial raw, but a simple, clean brand. I am learning that Tim is actually very, very picky about raw, which is why I still have to mix canned rabbit and raw rabbit. He won't eat either Primal Pronto or Stella & Chewy frozen raw rabbit (thawed, of course) on their own unless he's exceptionally hungry. I recently purchased Primal Pronto turkey and same thing. Both of these brands have more *stuff* and are formed into nuggets. But he loves, loves, loves Rad Cat turkey, which is a very simple and clean food- just shredded muscle and organ meat and minimal supplements. Can you get that where you live? Tim also really likes smallbatch rabbit blend without vegetables (muscle, organs, bones), but I only feed a small amount as it requires supplements and I am considering Alnutrin with this. Incidentally, I was worried about the egg yolk in Rad Cat because I suspect a chicken allergy with Tim. But he's fine and I think yolk is mostly fat; it's the white that has the protein and can cause the allergic reaction (???)

The questions you pose are way beyond my knowledge and experience. I hope someone with experience is able to help. Some thoughts, though: If you think liver is the problem, then maybe reducing it might be worth considering. I have read of cats having trouble on too much liver, so there might be something to that. But I don't know enough about liver to know what to supplement in case reducing it would cause a deficiency. I actually think liver could vary depending on the species. This may be my ignorance showing, but I think liver is liver like muscle is muscle, though we all know certain proteins in the muscle of some species can cause problems for some cats. I would think the same could be true for other organs. For the freeze-dried liver option, I don't see why that wouldn't work. I would just make sure the method used to freeze-dry preserves most of the nutrients. I think there are cats who do better on freeze-dried raw food compared to frozen raw, though I don't know why. I think it's worth trying.

mschauer · Nov 17, 2014

GoHolistic said:
So I've been doing A LOT of reading in the Raw and Home-Cooked forum

and perhaps I've come up with a few options on how to proceed and wanted to get everyone's thoughts.

Reduce the turkey liver to 5% as @LCat4 suggested and adjust (reduce) the eggshell accordingly.

You can certainly try reducing the liver. I think it might give you more useful information though if you make the food totally without liver and add it at feeding time starting with a tiny amount and increasing until he has a problem.

2. Try a different liver source (i.e., chicken liver) instead of turkey liver at the same percentage (not sure how it affects the nutrient analysis). However, my intuition tells me Sebastian's reaction would be the same. Other than turkey liver being higher in vitamin A than chicken liver, liver is liver, no

Feeding some type of liver would be beneficial even if it isn't from a 'matching' animal. There are nutritional differences between livers from different animals but feeding some liver would still be better than feeding none. Besides the turkey difference, beef liver is higher in copper, for instance.

3. I've read here on TCS where other people have cats that can't tolerate or won't eat liver and use freeze-dried liver instead. I found that here http://www.thecatsite.com/t/264261/calculations-for-dried-liver-as-part-of-frankenprey and here http://www.thecatsite.com/t/247129/feeding-dried-liver-in-place-of-fresh. Is this a viable option?

You can try freeze dried but remember it is just liver with the water removed. If Sebastian has a problem tolerating fresh chicken liver I would expect him to also have a problem with freeze dried chicken liver. But since we don't know why he has a problem with fresh chicken liver, who knows, maybe he can tolerate freeze dried.

4. I've also seen at least one case where cod liver oil was used in place of liver, but I get the impression that this should be a very last resort due to the possible dangers of using cod liver oil if used incorrectly.

I think the reason for not using code liver oil as a substitute for liver is because it is too high in something else. Vit D maybe? I'll have to look into it.

5. Thinking perhaps I may have some flexibility with the liver percentage, I dabbled with the Alnutrin nutrient calculator for a cooked diet after reading the discussion here http://www.thecatsite.com/t/263374/my-first-cooked-chicken-cat-food, assuming that if I choose raw meats from the drop down list that I can use the amount of Alnutrin with Calcium listed as long as I add back all the cooking liquids. Alnutrin was going to be my next endeavor if adding individual supplements didn't work out. Here's my screen shot:

Just remember that adding back the cooking liquids only recovers the minerals leached in to the water during cooking. It doesn't do anything to recover the vitamins lost during cooking. In the recipes I post I account for that loss.

goholistic · Nov 17, 2014

@AbbyNTim, thanks for the kind words and input. You're right...Sebastian does mean so much to me. I spend a lot of time attending to his needs and conducting research on his behalf. Most times he just doesn't fit into that "norm". He reacts negatively to things other cats don't. My other two cats, while also senior cats with senior issues, aren't nearly as sensitive. I wish I had room for another freezer. Instead I just don't buy much frozen stuff for myself.

Oh, the things we do. Rad Cat is not available to me locally. I wonder what percentage of liver makes up their turkey...just curious.

@mschauer, thanks so much for your thoughts as well.

mschauer said:
You can certainly try reducing the liver. I think it might give you more useful information though if you make the food totally without liver and add it at feeding time starting with a tiny amount and increasing until he has a problem.

So I would make the recipe as is, but without liver (everything else stays the same)? I wouldn't know much to add at feeding time, though. Say I wanted to start at 3% liver at feeding time and gradually increase it. Would that equate to 2.55 grams of fresh liver per 3 ounces?

mschauer said:
Feeding some type of liver would be beneficial even if it isn't from a 'matching' animal. There are nutritional differences between livers from different animals but feeding some liver would still be better than feeding none. Besides the turkey difference, beef liver is higher in copper, for instance.

Okay, gotcha. I guess what I'm wondering is if the "richness" of liver would be the same (for Sebastian) across different animals. I suppose I won't know until I delve a little deeper into this.

mschauer said:
You can try freeze dried but remember it is just liver with the water removed. If Sebastian has a problem tolerating fresh chicken liver I would expect him to also have a problem with freeze dried chicken liver. But since we don't know why he has a problem with fresh chicken liver, who knows, maybe he can tolerate freeze dried.

I was thinking the same as you and @AbbyNTim. Not sure why some cats might tolerate freeze-dried liver better than fresh, unless it's an enzyme thing.

I see there are several good options for me to choose from should I go this route - Etta Says, Dr. Ron's, Stewart Pro-Treat, Bravo, Fresh Is Best.

mschauer said:
Just remember that adding back the cooking liquids only recovers the minerals leached in to the water during cooking. It doesn't do anything to recover the vitamins lost during cooking. In the recipes I post I account for that lose.

Ah, yes. Thanks for the reminder. I do worry about feeding an unbalanced diet, so I did not feel entirely comfortable with the Alnutrin calculator for a cooked recipe.

mschauer · Nov 17, 2014

GoHolistic said:
mschauer said:

You can certainly try reducing the liver. I think it might give you more useful information though if you make the food totally without liver and add it at feeding time starting with a tiny amount and increasing until he has a problem.

Click to expand...

So I would make the recipe as is, but without liver (everything else stays the same)? I wouldn't know much to add at feeding time, though. Say I wanted to start at 3% liver at feeding time and gradually increase it. Would that equate to 2.55 grams of fresh liver per 3 ounces?

Don't worry about feeding an unbalanced diet in the short term (a few weeks). It won't hurt for a short time. I would start feeding with no liver at all. If he is OK with that for a few days add just a tiny bit of liver for a few days. If he is still OK add a bit more for the next few days. Just keep increasing the amount every few days until you find how much he can tolerate up to a maximum of about 11 grams a day. When you know how much he can tolerate we can figure out how much to put in a full recipe.

goholistic · Nov 22, 2014

Okay, thanks. I'm still mulling everything over. I keep going back and looking at the recipes and trying to figure out where to go from here. The weird thing is that Sebastian is still on antibiotics as a precautionary measure, but last night he had liquid diarrhea again. Now I'm totally stumped. I don't know if it was the canned food I'm feeding him or perhaps the treat I gave him two nights in a row (he's had both before without issues). Diarrhea is totally a new thing for him. It's never been like this.

Question: If a cat is going to get diarrhea from a particular food, what do you think the timing is? I assumed 24-48 hours. I've been giving him a Weruva canned food (figured that was simple and safe) since Monday morning (so 5 days ago) and the diarrhea started last night. However, I did give him a beef freeze-dried treat two nights in a row on Wednesday and Thursday I believe. Just trying to put it all together.

Of course, it could be none of the above and perhaps he's developing exocrine pancreatic insufficiency from his chronic pancreatitis, but I would imagine the diarrhea would be much more constant if that was the case versus coming and going.

I'm going to call the vet on Monday and see what she thinks about getting both the Spec fPL and TLI tests done again.

I'm not sure what to feed him today. I considered cooking up some plain meat or giving him baby food for a day or so. Any tips?

abbyntim · Nov 22, 2014

Just sharing my experience with Tim, who had frequent-enough diarrhea episodes prior to our cleaning up his diet. Tim usually had diarrhea within hours of eating the offending food, and usually no more than 12 hours later. His diarrhea was always food-related and not due to anything else; we had enough cultures to make sure. Diarrhea caused by something else could have different timing. If I had to guess, I would say it's not the food, but you never know. But I agree with plain and simple food and keep him hydrated with fluids. Sorry you are dealing with this.

roguethecat · Nov 22, 2014

Don't trust processed food if anyone is suffering from diarrhea... my Grisou was eating Royal Caning kitten food for months without any side effects, then suddenly I noticed the diarrhea in the litter box was his (him the only one who got canned food) and not the Rogue's, my usual suspect (dead giveaway if it's the Rogue: someone wiped his butt on the carpet

). My solution here was stopping any canned food for Grisou, and the diarrhea started clearing up once I put him on day-old chicks and rats only (for some reason, he dislikes mice). Now it only pops up when he manages to get more than a couple processed treats.

With the Rogue, any diarrhea got worse with cooked meat (until I found out that he is sensitive to exactly that), so the safest route would be chunks of raw meat only, maybe even a new kind he hasn't had before (rabbit is always good, or just plain old mice).

And, in my experience, any antibiotics is causing diarrhea because it wipes out all the flora inside one's intestines....

So, my cautious advice would be you stop antibiotics and put him on raw food only (maybe just some red meat and quail for bone content), plus a bit of bone powder to help clear up diarrhea. No organs for now. If you want to try, slippery elm calms down upset intestines (can also try some marshmallow root).

hope that helps

peaches08 · Nov 22, 2014

AbbyNTim said:
Just sharing my experience with Tim, who had frequent-enough diarrhea episodes prior to our cleaning up his diet. Tim usually had diarrhea within hours of eating the offending food, and usually no more than 12 hours later. His diarrhea was always food-related and not due to anything else; we had enough cultures to make sure. Diarrhea caused by something else could have different timing. If I had to guess, I would say it's not the food, but you never know. But I agree with plain and simple food and keep him hydrated with fluids. Sorry you are dealing with this.

In humans it can be as soon as 30 minutes. For Gadget it could be that fast, and Mason and Julie were always within a few hours of eating whatever food that bothered them. Like yours, it usually lasted less than a day...as if getting the food back "out" was all that was needed.

ldg · Nov 24, 2014

mschauer , the issue with cod liver oil is that it isn't ideal, but it is better as a liver substitute than synthetic vitamins A and D. It works just fine as a liver substitute - but it does need to be used carefully. As we know, the upper limits for A and D are pretty high, actually. The real concern is people using cod liver oil in addition to liver - using it as an omega 3, rather than a plain fish oil.

The caution is to not use cod liver oil - use fish oil. But that's not when it is being used in place of liver, specifically for the A and D.

You helped me design a diet for Spooky using cod liver oil because she wouldn't reliably eat liver, and I don't make ground batches. But I don't additionally give her the salmon oil the other cats get.

ldg · Nov 24, 2014

goholistic , how's he doing now? Is there a reason - if the antibiotics cleared up the diarrhea - not to go back to your prior rotation?

As to moving to all homemade, why not make - as suggested by mschauer - the recipe, just without the liver? :dk: In the IBD group, we recommend starting with a bland diet. Plain roasted or poached something. Then sloooooowly add one thing at a time. If you suspect liver is the issue, then why not make the food without the liver, and see what happens? Then add it at meal time, the next time, if everything was OK without it? Or add it in a tiny amount first, see what happens. There's really no way to rule it in or out as the culprit without that step. :dk:

And

mschauer , the freeze dried vs fresh is fascinating. Sheldon and Tuxedo cannot eat fresh liver and keep it down. :dk: They can both eat it freeze dried and keep it down. And Tuxedo loves fresh kidney - and keeps it down. :dk: I have no idea why this could be. But we're almost three years into raw, and it remains true. And that is with Sheldon able to eat red meat (which he couldn't keep down) IF he is on the Vet's Best Hairball Relief. I assume the issue there is the enzymes in it. But even on that, he cannot keep fresh liver down. It's worthy of some kind of study, IMO. :lol3:

zoneout · Nov 24, 2014

Cats GI tract is much shorter than ours so I would think diet induced diarrhea would happen quickly- a few hours at most.

I happened upon this page on diarrhea seems quite informative. Antibiotics can both cause or stop diarrhea depending on different factors so it does complicate matters.

http://www.cathealth.com/digestive-system/cat-diarrhea

Why can't Sebastian handle homemade food?

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