Vegan cats?

[freeradicals]

 It is simply nature and how the food chain works. The same thing with the honey- it is here for us to eat.

 

From a Vegan standpoint, honey nor milk, eggs, and other animal products are NOT for us to take. These products are produced with a specific intention, i.e., Honey is bees' food for the winter. Milk is produced for baby cows. Eggs are produced because the chicken wants offspring. Veganism has much to do with compassion and understanding our world from the eyes of animals (how would I like it if I produced a baby, and was immediately taken away from me to feed to another species, as is the case with eggs?).

From a philosophical standpoint, it is proper for other animals besides humans to take as they need because they act on instinct (rather than reason like humans). We have the capacity for moral reasoning while other animals do not.

 Honey farms can/are inhumane. It seema hard for us to conceptualise that because bees are tiny special animals thag we dont fully understand or communcate with. There are tons of info about how they suffer for the honey and how they are abused....and at the ens of the day it is still an exploitation of bees for economic purposes. I.e. slavery.

 

Absolutely, they are slaves to us humans, just to fulfill our interests, which violates the fundamental principle of compassion that many vegans, including myself, attempt to strive for.

I don't understand how bee farms are inhumane. It's not like you can force a bee to make honey. Being "slaves" is in their nature. Most of them are worker bees.

Because bees produce honey as their winter food. We are essentially taking away their food by having bee farms.

 
The principle of  veganism is that we do not take things from animals, "humane or no", because they're not ours to take.

Exactly.

Before I read this thread, the most ridiculous idea I came across was that eating and using honey is not humane because it 'exploits the bees.'

As above, not ours to take, as dictated by vegan principles.

 

[happybird]

I would argue that humans, as mammals/animals also have the instinct to take what is needed to eat to survive. A human eating meat or honey or grains is no different than a wild animal doing so. We are outfitted with a variety of teeth to process these different forms of sustenance. I am truly sorry if I offended anyone with my comment about honey, I still think it is more unnatural to not eat what the land and nature has offered us for survival.

What is unnatural are the factory farming techniques used today to produce food. I understand and respect the 'small earth' theory of vegetarianism, but have found it is not for me personally. I can actually feel my body absorbing nutrients when I eat red meat (about once every two weeks). When I start to feel off, I will eat a steak or burger and the effect is instantaneous. I tried vegetarianism in my hippie/ Rainbow Family 20's for about 3 years and ate a very well balanced and precise diet that included lots of alternative proteins. I always felt off and had intense food cravings. I was weak and tired a lot and constantly came down with upper respiratory infections. A few months after switching back to eating meat, these issues went away (although eating meat made me sick the first few times until my body got used to processing it again).

But I think hunting and gathering what food you need to survive is the most natural thing in the world. We are apex predators and our ability to reason does not change that.

 

[djoe]

We are surviving alright without meat and honey and farming. We no longer live in ages where we depend on hunting, and the difference between us and other animals is that we have a choice and a brain/consciousness to make that choice...

Anyway I think we drifted away from the topic of this thread...


Back to vegan cats

 

[runekeeper]

I'm personally not a vegetarian or a vegan, but I don't understand why a cat should be on a vegetarian/vegan diet. Cats are carnivores - those pointy teeth aren't just for show! They're for tearing meat. Besides, cats need a high-protein diet to be healthy, and while I understand there is protein in some vegetables, a lot more plant material needs to be consumed to get the same amount of protein that would be found in meat or products made with meat. I don't even know of many vegetables that cats would eat. My cat likes fries, but that's about it.

.

If a person is a vegan and they want to make their pet follow a vegan lifestyle too, why not get a pet that's actually a herbivore like a rabbit? That way, you and your bunny could have a salad together and the rabbit will be getting adequate nutrition. But that's just me. I would not recommend putting a meat-eating pet on a meatless diet - I imagine they would wind up malnourished or sick.

 

[thevegancuddler]

I'm personally not a vegetarian or a vegan, but I don't understand why a cat should be on a vegetarian/vegan diet. Cats are carnivores - those points teeth aren't just for show! They're for tearing meat. Besides, cats need a high-protein diet to be healthy, and while I understand there is protein in some vegetables, a lot more plant material needs to be consumed to get the same amount of protein that would be found in meat or products made with meat. I don't even know of many vegetables that cats would eat. My cat likes fries, but that's about it.
.

If a person is a vegan and they want to make their pet follow a vegan lifestyle too, why not get a pet that's actually a herbivore like a rabbit? That way, you and your bunny could have a salad together and the rabbit will be getting adequate nutrition. But that's just me. I would not recommend putting a meat-eating pet on a meatless diet - I imagine they would wind up malnourished or sick.

I understand why some people do it, I guess, but I don't think it's right. Cats' systems are SO delicate. And cats' digestive tracts are just too short to get the most out of vegetable matter. 

 
The 'not taking' principle has been complicated for me when dealing with the ferals and pets in my life. I am, ofcourse, against trap and euthanize. One alternative is trap neuter release. I find it a very serious decision to take away an animals ovaries or testes. Making sure over population data is accurate was important. I just couldn't do it if I didn't see cats suffering or a population exploding....Their numbers had to be a problem to them not because people don't like them spraying.... on the other side, I have two indoor cats(pets) and I have come to accept the fact I am taking something from them. They can not live out their full nature. In an ideal world I think cats are an animal that should live along side us humans but not as kept pets without choice. I believe when possible THEY should dictate how much security they want from us and how much freedom they want...but it is not an ideal world and where i live i can not let mine outside. So I have given my apt over to cat trees and tunnels and lots of interactive play, sometimes live crickets let loose for hunting. And the ferals outside I monitor and try to help maintain their lifestyle to the best of ability. What is so amazing and beautiful about this animal is at one moment it wants to curl up and sleep on your stomach purring the next it is tearing the head of a chipmunk off. I have ferals that roll on their backs for me to play with and crawl up my back when crouched down to feed them. These lovelies tread such a wonder fine line keeping their paws in both worlds of  sweet domesticity and wild WIld fire. And I do believe they like to play with are definitions and categories we put them in.

This is something I have given a lot of thought to as well, especially in light of growing evidence that, at least with dogs, it may be more harmful than helpful to have them spayed or neutered. I do think it still has its place in our society. Cats are like children, in that they are domesticated animals who do not possess the logical reasoning skills to always do what is best for their health. Cats in the wild will populate over and over again, so besides creating more animals who will live in the cold with no loving home, you have this issue of male cats getting in lethal fights over females, and females' bodies breaking down due to repeated and never-ending pregnancies from the age of six or seven months. And then, in shelters, I think there's also this need for fixing, because if you have unaltered cats, it's harder to host more of them, so in that way, I think it's better to have more cats safe in a shelter, even if they're altered.

The home environment is a little difference. All of my animals are fixed, but in the future, I plan to only adopt animals who are already fixed, and/or keep only unaltered animals of the same sex. If you only have one cat, I certainly see no reason to fix them.

 

[pocho]

 

[thevegancuddler]

 
Cats are self domesticated, they are different in that respect, different from a cow or any other animal so purposely manipulated for our benefit. They are quite capable and can survive in the harshest terrains. There is barely a difference between them and their wild ancestors opposed to a poodle and a wolf for example. They have wits beyond logic and are far from babies. The population problem.....I only know if some of the numbers were right we would literally see cats every square inch on the earth. Not to make light of that issue. I do find it a human arrogance to disagree with the created design of this animal and claim to know what a better life would be for them, they were made to fight and have babies. On the other side though, if you want one as a pet it is cruel to not fix it and then confine it. To be in heat and denied access to satisfying that drive? But it is all complicated for sure. But I have seen perfect examples of how people and felines can arrive at arrangements that work in the most respectful ways...

I'd have to disagree. Cats do not have the same cognitive processing skills and foresight that people do. And I don't think it's speciesist of me to say so; I don't think less of cats because they do not have this ability, just as I don't think less of children. But cats will sometimes eat string or paper if you let them. That doesn't make it good for them, and that doesn't mean that they know what is good for them (in this case, NOT eating the string/paper). If I left out a bowl of treats and a bowl of food, my cats would probably eat the treats, every single time. I have one cat who would drink rice milk if I let her, even though it's full of sugar and additives that she shouldn't be having. Just because a cat can do something/wants to do something doesn't make it okay for them. It is scientifically proven that cats who have litters repeatedly and from a young age are often physically damaged by it in the long run.

I don't let my cats outside because I don't think they'd thrive out there. I think they're just as happy indoors, and outdoors, they'd only be assaulted by the elements, and probably not find food very well. I tried walking Sophie as a baby on a harness, and she got out and got lost in the woods. It took me forty-five minutes to find her, and she was in a pile of snowy branches, crying. What a predator, am I right? Hahaha.

 

[pocho]

 
I'd have to disagree. Cats do not have the same cognitive processing skills and foresight that people do. And I don't think it's speciesist of me to say so; I don't think less of cats because they do not have this ability, just as I don't think less of children. But cats will sometimes eat string or paper if you let them. That doesn't make it good for them, and that doesn't mean that they know what is good for them (in this case, NOT eating the string/paper). If I left out a bowl of treats and a bowl of food, my cats would probably eat the treats, every single time. I have one cat who would drink rice milk if I let her, even though it's full of sugar and additives that she shouldn't be having. Just because a cat can do something/wants to do something doesn't make it okay for them. It is scientifically proven that cats who have litters repeatedly and from a young age are often physically damaged by it in the long run.

I don't let my cats outside because I don't think they'd thrive out there. I think they're just as happy indoors, and outdoors, they'd only be assaulted by the elements, and probably not find food very well. I tried walking Sophie as a baby on a harness, and she got out and got lost in the woods. It took me forty-five minutes to find her, and she was in a pile of snowy branches, crying. What a predator, am I right? Hahaha.

Cats chew on things not good for them because something is lacking in their diet, They would naturally chew on raw bones in mice if not interfered with. Science can't know what it feels like to be a cat and what pregnancy means to a cat. Alot of it is just human projecting onto them. Your little ones are individuals and I am sure they would be in harms way, might even die before they learned and instincts kicked in..Especially if they were taken from their mother too early. 

I wasn't saying cats can reason with logic. I was saying they don't have too. They have something superior to survive with. 

On another note, I just went to youtube to find footage of ferals surviving wild harsh terrains and stumbled upon a video of someone so proud he has shot over 400 cats. I don't want to argue or even disagree with all the lovely cat people on this site anymore.   We all just need to find a way to stop these can of actions! How?

 

[maewkaew]

 
I understand why some people do it, I guess, but I don't think it's right. Cats' systems are SO delicate. And cats' digestive tracts are just too short to get the most out of vegetable matter. 

This is something I have given a lot of thought to as well, especially in light of growing evidence that, at least with dogs, it may be more harmful than helpful to have them spayed or neutered. I do think it still has its place in our society. Cats are like children, in that they are domesticated animals who do not possess the logical reasoning skills to always do what is best for their health. Cats in the wild will populate over and over again, so besides creating more animals who will live in the cold with no loving home, you have this issue of male cats getting in lethal fights over females, and females' bodies breaking down due to repeated and never-ending pregnancies from the age of six or seven months. And then, in shelters, I think there's also this need for fixing, because if you have unaltered cats, it's harder to host more of them, so in that way, I think it's better to have more cats safe in a shelter, even if they're altered.

The home environment is a little difference. All of my animals are fixed, but in the future, I plan to only adopt animals who are already fixed, and/or keep only unaltered animals of the same sex. If you only have one cat, I certainly see no reason to fix them.

  
Try pyometra.   There's a reason.    I probably would not have a dog altered.    There's more evidence of potential health downsides in dogs.   but I would with cats . 

With queens coming in heat so much more often than bitches,   that is harder on them..   If you keep a female cat intact and just let her go through heat over and over without breeding,  that increases her risk of cystic endometrial hyperplasia and  pyometra.   which can be  deadly.   and it's not something extremely rare.   Not to mention,  heat doesn't exactly seem like all fun.  they are desperate to mate.   and they may go through that every over week.   That can make some queens lose body condition because they are so stressed out they don't eat enough and are pacing around all the time.

 The same thing can happen with toms.   If not neutered and never able to mate,  he may be very frustrated,  can act aggressive,  lose appetite.   but if you just let him run free, he can get badly wounded in fights (as you have mentioned ),  contract FIV,  get hit by a vehicle while out following his hormonal drive ,  or get into all sorts of other dangers. including from human lunatics like the cat killer just mentioned .

 And of course with toms ,  a major issue is that they very often will eventually start spraying an extremely pungent urine which makes it difficult to keep them in your home unless you have some specially prepared area that won't be ruined by it. 

 And there really are so many cats homeless or being killed at pounds  , that I don't feel I would be so responsible if I  just let a tom OR queen roam around making more and more. 

Keeping whole cats of the same sex in your home  is not always the easiest thing.   Many of the males will fight each other.   and some of the females can fight each other just as bad.  Certain queens just take a strong dislike to each other and will fight to the point of really hurting each other. 

Yes  i know some neutered cats also fight but adding the hormones  into the mix tends to make them more territorial. 

It sounds like you are aware of the risks with free roaming cats fighting  but it can happen in your home too.

so  I think your plan of adopting cats already fixed is probably the best.       and mostly they do come already fixed these days if you adopt them.   Of course  sometimes a stray cat may adopt us. and then you have to decide.    

 

[djoe]

When my now 13 years old Licy was the only cat in the household (now it is 4 because I came across 3 orphaned strays who lost their mom at 3 days old and fell in love eventhough I had sworn not to get attached to pets anymore).

So when lucy was alone, we thought there was no need to spay her and the vet would give her some injection everytime she was in heat (I was a stupid kid who just trusted whatever the vet said).... eventually it was too many shots already and when I started lookimg around and googling and getting informed I changed vet.... and the new one said too many of these injections will increase risks of cancer. I got her spayed on the day...she was 11 (too late)....she still flirts with the black cat in the neighbourhood though hahahha so I make sure I feed him so that he stays healthy for her..lol

And now my beauty is suffering of grade 3 sarcoma. We have done 2 operations so far....hoping iy will not return.


So....even if you have only one cat, there are a lot of reasons to get them fixed. A male cat would always have thr urge to go outside ( and maybe never return)

I still wonder though. If it's in cats' interest to be neutered why haa this not cone up in their natural evolutionary process( which would eventually mean extinction)

 

[Willowy]

If it's in cats' interest to be neutered why haa this not cone up in their natural evolutionary process( which would eventually mean extinction)

Because cats have lots of babies to make sure they don't go extinct :tongue2:. Basically, like rabbits and mice, they breed and breed from an early age so that they will still have replaced themselves in the world even if they die young. When we want to keep them as pets, we obviously do not want them to die young so spay/neuter is the best way to prevent a lot of the risky behaviors.

If you have a pet rabbit and don't use her for breeding, she has about an 80% chance of dying from a reproductive disease by age 5 , unless you have her spayed. Cats are similar, well, really, all animals are. The female reproductive organs are designed to be used, frequently. If they aren't, they tend to become diseased. Even for humans, the chances of ovarian cancer, breast cancer, etc. are much higher in women who have never had a child, and the chances go even lower when you have more than one. And so it's a complicated thing for pet owners.

 

[thevegancuddler]

Hm, didn't realize these diseases were associated with cats. I guess I was thinking about all the new research with dogs and how fixing them might be harmful.

 

[ldg]

But as we discussed in that thread, so far there is no indication that any of that applies to cats - and that is from a practicing vet that has not OBSERVED issues in cats that made her wonder about it - who had noticed them in dogs, and the research supports the observation. Dr. Becker specifically mentioned that, in fact.

 

[laurag]

 As to the discussion of bees and honey: BEES ARE NOT GASSED to "steal" their honey. It's simply smoke which protects the bee keeper. No bee keeper wants their bees to die and so there is a time frame for harvesting the honey to insure that the winter supply is not removed.

Without bees, there would be a lot less in the way of fruits and vegetables. And so the product: commercially grown apples, cherries, bears, peaches plums as well as your garden produce--tomatoes, corn, squash, etc depend on pollinators to actually form fruit. So it is STILL a product of bees.

There are no indigenous wild honey bees native to North America. All commercial fruit is made possible by bee farmers who truck their hives to orchards and fields for periods of time to pollinate the plants. There may be semi reliable pollination by bumble bees and certain species of moths but reliable crops of vegetables and fruits that allow first world people to make the decision for veganism is actually powered by animal labor.

 

[pocho]

People need to recognize the vegan movement is one of the heart more than anything. The line of thought and intellectual reasoning can get confusing and have holes in it because navigating through the food industry is not a simply matter . Most are pulled to it simply because they want to cause as little harm as possible. It has the power to make people better humans due to the fact they are sensitizing themselves to other beings. I generally dont tell people I am a vegan because I have noticed an immediate defensiveness and it seems people are very emotional about their chosen diet. The criticizing by some towards vegans I believe is an unconscious expression of their own self questioning. But veganisms should first and foremost just be seen as people trying, just trying to be a better human for themselves.

 

[Willowy]

 As to the discussion of bees and honey: BEES ARE NOT GASSED to "steal" their honey. It's simply smoke which protects the bee keeper. No bee keeper wants their bees to die and so there is a time frame for harvesting the honey to insure that the winter supply is not removed.

Without bees, there would be a lot less in the way of fruits and vegetables. And so the product: commercially grown apples, cherries, bears, peaches plums as well as your garden produce--tomatoes, corn, squash, etc depend on pollinators to actually form fruit. So it is STILL a product of bees.

There are no indigenous wild honey bees native to North America. All commercial fruit is made possible by bee farmers who truck their hives to orchards and fields for periods of time to pollinate the plants. There may be semi reliable pollination by bumble bees and certain species of moths but reliable crops of vegetables and fruits that allow first world people to make the decision for veganism is actually powered by animal labor.

To be fair, and kind of playing devil's advocate because I'm not vegan. . .but smoking them out IS gassing by a different name. Smoke has gasses in it or people wouldn't die of smoke inhalation. Most beekeepers don't leave any honey for the bees and instead give them sugar syrup or corn syrup to eat (which we all know isn't as healthy as honey; that's why people want the honey)(this was considered as a possible cause of colony collapse disorder and probably does contribute to the problem). Trucking bees around would not be necessary if they were left enough honey to last the winter, and if they were allowed to build hives in properly protected areas; the bee companies just do it to be able to make money on the bees year-round. Since pollination is simply a pleasant side effect of the bees' food gathering, I'm not sure I would consider that "animal labor". . .well, if they were allowed to keep their food anyway.

I also wouldn't consider vegetarianism to be a first-world privilege because the majority of people in India are vegetarian (not vegan, though, because they do consume a lot of dairy), and poorer people in most places do not consume much/any meat by necessity. Raising meat is extremely expensive (even Americans couldn't afford to buy much meat if not for all the government subsidies involved) and is a drain on natural resources. Eating a lot of meat is definitely a first-world privilege.

And so, yeah, I totally understand why someone would want to be vegan. Doubt I could manage it though :tongue2:. I don't eat meat at home but arguing with family members over what I do/don't eat doesn't seem worth it since the animal already died :/.

 

[djoe]

I normally avoid discussions on why and why not being vegan...but juzt an addition to the bees discussion, many of them are actually heavily injured and have broken legs, specifically in the bee pollen collection process (the use of nets and other tools)... so not only their pollen is stolen (labor/slavery) but also they are hurt and i jured without even being noticed or given a break.

 

[djoe]

For fellow vegans on this thread... feel free to join us onhttp://www.thecatsite.com/t/268533/any-fellow-vegans#post_3451724

 

[djoe]

Last weekend one of kitties liked my rice milk (no sugar or flavour) and he insisted on sharing my bowl!
I hope it's ok for him

 

[ldg]

A small amount of just about anything that isn't toxic to cats isn't going to hurt. But rice milk, even unsweetened, by definition has sugar in it because of the carbs. One cup of Rice Dream unsweetened original has 11g of sugar in it: http://www.tastethedream.com/products/product/1458/202.php