Vegan cats?

[ldg]

I think if your cat is seriously in need of the diet the lack of meat is least of your concerns.  Vets I have used were not quick to put an animal on  rx diet.  Some went on(mainly the c/d for urinary issues and A/d for the very sick.  Also for many conditions there is another food that can be eaten.  Like W/d for diabetes you can use any low carb wet-friskies pate works well, for urinary once cat is stable you may be able to introduce a canned food diet.  One of my cats had issues with all wets I tried my current cat can eat any non fish friskies pate and does great. I think comparing RX diets that are formulated to treat a very specific condition to regular food is not the same at all.

Well, at least the Hill's Pet hypoallergenic food has hydrolyzed chicken in it. So when it comes to choosing a hypoallergenic prescription diet, there IS a choice.

 

[goholistic]

Here is the ingredient list of Royal Canin hypoallergenic cat food:

Brewers rice, hydrolyzed soy protein, chicken fat, natural flavors, powdered cel¬lulose, vegetable oil, dried beet pulp, monocalcium phosphate, fish oil, potassium chloride, calcium sulfate, calcium carbonate, fructooligosaccharides, sodium silico aluminate, salt, taurine, vitamins [DL-alpha tocopherol acetate (source of vitamin E), inositol, niacin supplement, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), D-calcium pantothenate, biotin, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), riboflavin supplement (vitamin B2), thiamine mononitrate (vitamin B1), vitamin A acetate, folic acid, vitamin B12 supplement, vitamin D3 supplement], choline chloride, DL-methionine, marigold extract (Tagetes erecta L.), trace minerals [zinc protein¬ate, zinc oxide, ferrous sulfate, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate, copper sulfate, manganous oxide, calcium iodate, sodium selenite], rosemary extract, preserved with natural mixed tocopherols and citric acid.

Chicken fat and fish oil. No protein from any animal source.

 
No meat in Royal Canin Hypoallergenic Cat Food:  This is a good example of why to ALWAYS READ LABELS!!!!!!!!

Well, at least the Hill's Pet hypoallergenic food has hydrolyzed chicken in it. So when it comes to choosing a hypoallergenic prescription diet, there IS a choice.

There are other options in a hypoallergenic prescription diet. In Royal Canin's defense, they have a food called "Royal Canin Veterinary Diet Hypoallergenic Selected Protein

Adult PR Feline" that comes in both wet and dry. It is made with rabbit. Here are the ingredients for the canned:

Ingredients: water sufficient for processing, rabbit, rabbit liver, pea flour, vegetable oil, pea protein, natural flavors, fish oil, carrageenan, taurine, calcium sulfate, sodium tripolyphosphate, chlorine chloride, DL-alpha-tocopherol acetate (source of vitamin E), niacin supplement, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), thiamine mononitrate (vitamin B1), biotin, d-calcium pantothenate, riboflavin supplement (vitamin B2), pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, folic acid, vitamin D3 supplement, zinc proteinate, zinc oxide, ferrous sulfate, copper sulfate, manganous oxide and sodium selenite

It's not as great as a raw or homemade diet, of course, but my point is that it does have meat it in. It also comes in "PV" which is the venison.

I'm not sure what that other version is that was mentioned, but it is not the RC hypoallergenic food I know.  

 

[djoe]

IMG-20131114-WA0006.jpg

• djoe
• Nov 18, 2013

Just came upon this, I guess it reflects the initial question

 

[pocho]

Just came upon this, I guess it reflects the initial question

That pretty much triggers of the gamut of emotions and inter conflict! That's why I also would like it better if I could let my dear hearts outside to hunt...Cut out the middleman, it is the middle man(us!) that has defiled everything.

 

[djoe]

Indeed.. but again it is a double edged sword.

See if you let your kitty hunts, would you not feed him/her anymore? so will hunting actually eliminate your role as the middle man?  Particularly as hunting might also expose your cats to many diseases, and could contribute to a rough imbalance in a local ecosystem, since a pet-cat is an outsider to that ecosystem, not part of its balance...

a vicious circle I must say.... 

 

[pocho]

 
Indeed.. but again it is a double edged sword.

See if you let your kitty hunts, would you not feed him/her anymore? so will hunting actually eliminate your role as the middle man?  Particularly as hunting might also expose your cats to many diseases, and could contribute to a rough imbalance in a local ecosystem, since a pet-cat is an outsider to that ecosystem, not part of its balance...

a vicious circle I must say.... 

honestly I think our ecosystem has had plenty of time to adapt to the presence of the cat, although there are areas of sensitivity(I dont live in one). And without the cat we would see a surge in rodent population that would bring more harm disease wise to all. Letting them outside to hunt would atleast cut back on the middleman but not completely eliminate. It isnt as dangerous for them as you think to eat mice, moles, rabbits, bugs...their digestion tract was made for it and highly acidic killing alot of germs. It is suggested to worm and do flea treatments plus some vaccinations for outside cats. Other than that they are good to go. Did you know not only is it the hunting of rodents by cats that reduces the population but the smell of cats themselves that deter rodents? People that complain about spraying should know this maybe. 

or maybe we should just curse those damn roman soldiers for bringing the cats home with them from Egypt. In the end they are the source of ALL are cat problems

 

[djoe]

Yes I know their smell is a great deterrent for rodents... and in our village house, they used to keep snakes away. 

3 of my cats are partly Egyptian, and where we come from nobody brought cats to us... they have been part of our lives as we know it.  In fact, only now that animal shelters popped up that we started hearing about overpopulation in cities... but it has always been the same. But it is a fact that outdoor cats, specially in cities are having a miserable short life.  

 

[pocho]

 
Yes I know their smell is a great deterrent for rodents... and in our village house, they used to keep snakes away. 

3 of my cats are partly Egyptian, and where we come from nobody brought cats to us... they have been part of our lives as we know it.  In fact, only now that animal shelters popped up that we started hearing about overpopulation in cities... but it has always been the same. But it is a fact that outdoor cats, specially in cities are having a miserable short life.  

That miserable short life statistics is debatable. Truly it is hard to get a grasp on what is really going on and a proper perspective with all the agendas and politics surrounding ferals. For me, I try to focus on what my personal experience is and what I see. The ferals I interact with are having quality lives. "nobody brought cats to us"....just joking about those roman soldiers, my basic response when I hear them endlessly referred as invasive. 

 

[laurag]

Outdoor cats in the US kill a lot of birds. Bird population is already stressed due to loss of habitat and along flyways, the loss of suitable areas for rest (ponds and food and such). Outdoor cats also get into more trouble from idiots who purposefully harm them, to cars that hit them to other animals like increasingly bold coyote populations who hunt them.

Even well-fed cats allowed to wander out doors face this risks for their own health and they still hunt the bird population.  Cats just do their thing with the hunting. It's part of their nature.

The cartoon that shows the farmer being accountable to his animals for having a cat....vegans probably wouldn't have a farm with animals, no?

 

[pocho]

 
Outdoor cats in the US kill a lot of birds. Bird population is already stressed due to loss of habitat and along flyways, the loss of suitable areas for rest (ponds and food and such). Outdoor cats also get into more trouble from idiots who purposefully harm them, to cars that hit them to other animals like increasingly bold coyote populations who hunt them.

Even well-fed cats allowed to wander out doors face this risks for their own health and they still hunt the bird population.  Cats just do their thing with the hunting. It's part of their nature.

The cartoon that shows the farmer being accountable to his animals for having a cat....vegans probably wouldn't have a farm with animals, no?

Belongs on another thread. Especially the bird population issue. Trust me there are many 'statistics with polarized opinions/data'. And we shouldnt forget how exclusively indoor cats suffer- also from mean people(they cant run away from) confinement stress and illnesses related....

The cartoon points out you are essentially the man with the knife or paying him vegan or not.

 

[laurag]

 
Belongs on another thread. Especially the bird population issue. Trust me there are many 'statistics with polarized opinions/data'. And we shouldnt forget how exclusively indoor cats suffer- also from mean people(they cant run away from) confinement stress and illnesses related....

The cartoon points out you are essentially the man with the knife or paying him vegan or not.

Well it's good to know that you have all the answers. That's wonderful.

 

[Willowy]

If you want to know more about the cat-hating people who make up the data that American cat-predation/bird studies are based on, there are some good discussions floating around. I'd have to take some time (not tonight) to find them all but I'm pretty sure most are in the "Strays and Ferals" subforum.

 

[ldg]

There are other options in a hypoallergenic prescription diet. In Royal Canin's defense, they have a food called "Royal Canin Veterinary Diet Hypoallergenic Selected Protein
Adult PR Feline" that comes in both wet and dry. It is made with rabbit. Here are the ingredients for the canned:

Ingredients: water sufficient for processing, rabbit, rabbit liver, pea flour, vegetable oil, pea protein, natural flavors, fish oil, carrageenan, taurine, calcium sulfate, sodium tripolyphosphate, chlorine chloride, DL-alpha-tocopherol acetate (source of vitamin E), niacin supplement, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), thiamine mononitrate (vitamin B1), biotin, d-calcium pantothenate, riboflavin supplement (vitamin B2), pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, folic acid, vitamin D3 supplement, zinc proteinate, zinc oxide, ferrous sulfate, copper sulfate, manganous oxide and sodium selenite

It's not as great as a raw or homemade diet, of course, but my point is that it does have meat it in. It also comes in "PV" which is the venison.

I'm not sure what that other version is that was mentioned, but it is not the RC hypoallergenic food I know.   :dk:

I should have remembered this from Sebastian's thread in health. Thanks for pointing that out! I'd forgotten they added new hypoallergenic options.

 

[ldg]

Indeed.. but again it is a double edged sword.
See if you let your kitty hunts, would you not feed him/her anymore? so will hunting actually eliminate your role as the middle man?  Particularly as hunting might also expose your cats to many diseases, and could contribute to a rough imbalance in a local ecosystem, since a pet-cat is an outsider to that ecosystem, not part of its balance...

a vicious circle I must say.... 

Well the research indicates that if keeping cats for rodent control, they are more effective if fed. Seems counter-intuitive, but unlike most predators, the "prey-hunt" drive in cats is not hunger-dependent (which is why they are so adorably playful). Feeding them centers their territory, among other things.

...and rats and the most common mice and birds in many places are also introduced species.

 

[ldg]

Outdoor cats in the US kill a lot of birds.

This is debatable. There are certainly projections published that indicate that. There are a lot of problems with the underlying assumptions. The propaganda in the guise of "research" by US conservation societies is certainly headline-making news. The UK's Royal Society for Protection of Birds actually reads the published literature and understands the (many) flaws:

http://www.rspb.org.uk/advice/gardening/unwantedvisitors/cats/birddeclines.aspx

Despite the large numbers of birds killed, there is no scientific evidence that predation by cats in gardens is having any impact on bird populations UK-wide. This may be surprising, but many millions of birds die naturally every year, mainly through starvation, disease, or other forms of predation. There is evidence that cats tend to take weak or sickly birds.

We also know that of the millions of baby birds hatched each year, most will die before they reach breeding age. This is also quite natural, and each pair needs only to rear two young that survive to breeding age to replace themselves and maintain the population.

It is likely that most of the birds killed by cats would have died anyway from other causes before the next breeding season, so cats are unlikely to have a major impact on populations.

Cats have been a part of the environment in the US for four centuries now, and our birds evolved in the presence of predators. There are definitely habitat fragments where cats add additional stress (like Florida Keys). ...but not typically in urban/suburban environments, where birds are actually thriving, according to The State of Birds reports.

 

[pocho]

 
Well it's good to know that you have all the answers. That's wonderful.

I didn't mean to sound that way. What I mean to say is there are MANY answers according to the agenda sometimes. 

 

[hopps]

Four hundred years in terms of evolution and ecosystems is actually a very very short amount of time. Evolution works in terms of thousands of years. Four hundred years of cats being in the ecosystem will pretty much destroy it as cats are very exceptional hunters. Especially in areas that don't have a lot of small cats in the natural ecosystem already. The only wild cats in my area are pretty much bobcats and mountain lions. Adding a large amount of domestic or feral cats would definitely wreak havoc on the ecosystem. The local ecosystem cannot adjust to new predators so quickly. Especially a predator that can eat many different animals instead of just birds, or just lizards. A great example is the bullfrog. They were introduced in 1898 and yet they are still a MAJOR problem in quite a few countries. The ecosystem has not accommodated them, not in the slightest. Letting cats into an ecosystem can be very devastating even if you don't think it is. There are ecosystems that were severely damaged from just one species being introduced and become a SERIOUS issue. 

Also concerning letting them hunt because you deem is natural. I am not trying to be attacking in anyways but I will say there is nothing natural about having a cat inside a home, inside an enclosed space or anything. Also you say hoarding food is not natural and you are right. But then again nothing about what humans built is natural. Concrete that gets laid over a land is unnatural. It damages it and it can take fifty to a hundred years for it to regain any potential to be "alive" again. Domesticating or using animals for labor is unnatural as well. With the reasoning of "it's not natural" or "it's not found in nature" everything should be torn apart and somehow obliterated from this planet to return it to nature. I am not saying I don't agree with you, but I am trying to point out that using the reason "it's not found in nature/it's not natural" can be too broad. Also humans are indeed a part of nature. We have become what we are now. I am not saying it is right or wrong that we hoard food but all because nature doesn't effect us in ways it does with other animals it doesn't mean it is anymore natural or unnatural. But there is no denying that we are devastating the earth.

You could always buy meat from places that treat animals well. It's incredibly difficult but you can of course make it work!
When my mom came to the US she was mortified by how livestock were treated. In South Korea people do eat meat but all the cows are given fresh grass and a pasture to roam in. They are not given anything in their diet other than organic foods. No antibiotics or anything. People play with the cows and are treated very well. Then they are quickly slaughtered. 

Anyways I felt like I had to point some things out in your arguments because I know you mean very well. But saying ecosystems had time to adjust to cats, especially local environments the past one hundred to four hundred years is wrong. I am incredibly passionate about invasive species and preserving ecosystems so I felt obligated to write this. I'm sorry if this came out to be attacking ( I really hope not!)

 

[pocho]

NO offense taken, thankyou. It seems you are replying to many people's posts rather than just one? I believe though that each individual situation ecosystem wise should be looked at as far as the feral cat situation. Some areas are more sensitive than others but I can't base my decisions for my local feral cats on studies from New Zealand as an example... A large percentage of feral cat population is in urban/suburban areas. Many biologist suggest the predation numbers should be put in context with the prey populations ability to handle it, and infact in many situations they can. Also, the fact is cats are here and there is no going back( which is where, btw?). Like many on this continent, people and even some birds not native. Trap and euthanize hasn't worked so there is a push for TNR. That means getting people used to the idea of seeing cats outside and outside means hunting. There is indeed semantic issues with the word natural. Using it lightly in reference to diet is one way to use the word. When I see an animal with claws and sharp teeth and the stealth of a cat, a true carnivore, I say it is 'natural' they hunt and eat mice for example...I agree a cat kept inside isn't necessarily 'natural'. But they are self domesticated and straddle the line of wild and domesticated There is alot of room for situational adaptation there. They seem to like best to live on our edges. They seem to have evolved to exploit what we can offer as far as security and what is wild in them is maintained. 

Cat's do need special consideration and sensitivity for they indeed carrying the greatest weight of OUR environmental sins.

On a lighter note, Yes it is clear we are destroying the planet  the whole world (possibly universe) will do much better as soon as we get off it! It seems every problem we have with any other species can be traced back to US. As George Carlin said, don't worry, eventually Mother Earth will shake us off like a bad case of fleas and everything will be fine.

p.s. (reference to bird thread,) on bird note the other day they suggested if you have an indoor/outdoor cat to keep them inside during fledgling times.

 

[ldg]

Four hundred years in terms of evolution and ecosystems is actually a very very short amount of time. Evolution works in terms of thousands of years. Four hundred years of cats being in the ecosystem will pretty much destroy it as cats are very exceptional hunters. Especially in areas that don't have a lot of small cats in the natural ecosystem already. The only wild cats in my area are pretty much bobcats and mountain lions. Adding a large amount of domestic or feral cats would definitely wreak havoc on the ecosystem. The local ecosystem cannot adjust to new predators so quickly. Especially a predator that can eat many different animals instead of just birds, or just lizards. A great example is the bullfrog. They were introduced in 1898 and yet they are still a MAJOR problem in quite a few countries. The ecosystem has not accommodated them, not in the slightest. Letting cats into an ecosystem can be very devastating even if you don't think it is. There are ecosystems that were severely damaged from just one species being introduced and become a SERIOUS issue. 

Yes, but it very important to distinguish between isolated ecosystems and continents. I'm not saying introduced species don't cause devastating problems. I'm discussing specifically cats and birds on continents.

And in terms of birds and domestic cats, there's reason to believe 400 years is a long time, given evidence birds can evolve in decades: http://m.livescience.com/27971-birds-evolve-avoid-being-roadkill.html

 

[hopps]

That article you linked unfortunately does not provide any data suggesting they went through evolution. The scientists even claimed there is little to no evidence suggesting that. Thwy sid nor have a large sample size and there are too many variables that can factor into this. Even the language of the article bringa out the point rhat this article is nothinf but speculation

Sorry I'm a real freak at this as I was studying as a bio major and this stuff really gets to me.