Slippery Elm Bark, Wet food, Managing Constipation

[oneandahalfcats]

I know it is working, SEB has been the greatest discovery for us! Sophie was constipated but not bad, she went every 36-48 hours. The BIG problem was fresh blood on her stool. After several vets, medicines and trying to indentify the culprit in her diet, it all settled with SEB. I was so desperate I was about to put her through colonoscopies (I don't even know if there is such a thing for cats) and ultrasounds. She had SEB every day twice a day, now she only has it on Tueasdays and Saturdays. The other days she has probiotics. I am just worried about long term effects of SEB. She is having it for about 4 months.

Yes, I certainly will second this sentiment. The fresh blood with Sophie reminds me of an incident with Max, where we had switched diets and then poof, the next day we saw diarrhea mixed with shots of fresh blood. Needless to say we got off that food, pronto!

I think I may have seen the reference to SEB and nutrient absorption in the article at Jean Hovfre's page at Little Big Cat. She mentions that this can be an issue 'over time'  but nothing beyond this. How then do you quantify a lack of nutrients as the result of SEB, and not something else like IBD of which SEB is supposed to be effective in improving the symptoms of?

 

[irinasak]

Yes, I certainly will second this sentiment. The fresh blood with Sophie reminds me of an incident with Max, where we had switched diets and then poof, the next day we saw diarrhea mixed with shots of fresh blood. Needless to say we got off that food, pronto!

I think I may have seen the reference to SEB and nutrient absorption in the article at Jean Hovfre's page at Little Big Cat. She mentions that this can be an issue 'over time'  but nothing beyond this. How then do you quantify a lack of nutrients as the result of SEB, and not something else like IBD of which SEB is supposed to be effective in improving the symptoms of?

I should have mentioned that Sophie is underweight so any nutrient absorbtion is a bigger red flag to us than for the rest. Her bloodwork is ok, only her amylase level was way too low (103 out of a 370-1200 normal range). Anyway, I am the first to advocate for SEB, I would just like to read more on long term effects and such.

 

[tdonline]

One, thanks for our keen interest and encouragement!  Yes, the fact Dory managed 2 BMs within a one week span brought much delight to me (godsakes alive, what is my life coming to...

) .  

I did use Laxatone (or some brand of hairball gel) early on their lives but they disliked it.  So I ended up donating the tubes to the shelter where I volunteer.  I figure if they are going to ignore the gel, I may as well use PJ which is much cheaper.  I'm not sure if Laxatone is better in terms of additional ingredients?  Reading the list, I'm not sure if all those ingredients are better than 100% PJ?

As far as the reintroduction is going, I updated here http://www.thecatsite.com/t/268349/redirected-cat-aggression-separation-making-it-worse  .  They are both snoozing with me in the living room.  Dory on the cat tree and Josie in the enclosed stroller.  I'll probably put Dory back in the bedroom soon as I don't want Josie to be enclosed for too long--even if she does usually snooze well into the evenings.  I did make sure Josie had at least peed just before going into the stroller.

 

[oneandahalfcats]

I should have mentioned that Sophie is underweight so any nutrient absorbtion is a bigger red flag to us than for the rest. Her bloodwork is ok, only her amylase level was way too low (103 out of a 370-1200 normal range). Anyway, I am the first to advocate for SEB, I would just like to read more on long term effects and such.

For sure. With a underweight kitty, its understandable that you want to be careful.

 

[oneandahalfcats]

 
One, thanks for our keen interest and encouragement!  Yes, the fact Dory managed 2 BMs within a one week span brought much delight to me (godsakes alive, what is my life coming to...

) .  

I did use Laxatone (or some brand of hairball gel) early on their lives but they disliked it.  So I ended up donating the tubes to the shelter where I volunteer.  I figure if they are going to ignore the gel, I may as well use PJ which is much cheaper.  I'm not sure if Laxatone is better in terms of additional ingredients?  Reading the list, I'm not sure if all those ingredients are better than 100% PJ?

As far as the reintroduction is going, I updated here http://www.thecatsite.com/t/268349/redirected-cat-aggression-separation-making-it-worse  .  They are both snoozing with me in the living room.  Dory on the cat tree and Josie in the enclosed stroller.  I'll probably put Dory back in the bedroom soon as I don't want Josie to be enclosed for too long--even if she does usually snooze well into the evenings.  I did make sure Josie had at least peed just before going into the stroller.

Nice to hear that they can both be out in the same space together. This sounds like some improvement.

Re. the laxatone, yes it is more expensive I think. It was the laxatone with the natural flavor (the last one in the list) that I felt was the best of the lot. Although on checking again, this one doesn't have the petrolatum in it. All the other flavored ones do though? If they didn't like it, then not worth the cost to try again.

 

[irinasak]

I think I may have seen the reference to SEB and nutrient absorption in the article at Jean Hovfre's page at Little Big Cat. She mentions that this can be an issue 'over time'  but nothing beyond this. How then do you quantify a lack of nutrients as the result of SEB, and not something else like IBD of which SEB is supposed to be effective in improving the symptoms of?

Yes, there it is:
'NOTE: Slippery Elm may interfere with absorption of medications; and long-term use may have some effect on nutrient absorption. It may be best to give Slippery Elm at a different time, separate from medications.'

However, it seems that there are no long term studies.

 

[oneandahalfcats]

I doubt we will find many studies involving long-term effects in either animals or humans as the use of SEB for IBS related issues may still be fairly new. What I did find are 1 or 2 studies at NCBI (US Ntl Library of Medicine) that document the use of SEB in a trial involving 31 patients. No mention of issues with nutrient absorption. The focus of the trial was to determine the effectiveness of  two different formulas (one containing SEB) to improve bowel habits and IBS symptoms in patients with constipation-predominant IBS. Here is the link to this study : http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20954962

Personally I find the reference to 'may have some effect' on nutrient absorption, to be a little too vague. Ultimately you just have to make a personal decision and weight the benefits against the possible (but unknown) adverse effects and hope for the best. Mind you, the amount I am giving everyday is negligible really.

 

[abbyntim]

Interesting discussion. Recently just became aware of SEB for cats with IBS. Didn't occur to me to try it with my constipated cat. But now that I am thinking his sensitive stomach and constipation could be related, this may be worth trying.

Our story is here: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/272867/...ion-urinary-crystals-food-sensitivites-asthma

 

[oneandahalfcats]

 
Interesting discussion. Recently just became aware of SEB for cats with IBS. Didn't occur to me to try it with my constipated cat. But now that I am thinking his sensitive stomach and constipation could be related, this may be worth trying.

Our story is here: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/272867/...ion-urinary-crystals-food-sensitivites-asthma

Hi there ...

Yes, you might find SEB to be very helpful in relieving issues associated with IBS, as well as diarrhea and constipation in cats. Quite often constipation can be a result of digestive problems associated with IBS.

I have been meaning to provide an update to this thread to say that Max continues to do really well. He is currently going every second day and sometimes every day. I have been alternating now between giving Max SEB one day and probiotics the next, but not both on the same day. This is going well.

Probiotics might be something else to consider as they work by introducing beneficial bacteria to correct bacterial imbalances and improve gut health. This can be really beneficial for cats with digestive disorders in that better gut health translates to better digestion. Probiotics also help to support the immune system again by introducing healthy bacteria that challenges the immune system, but in a healthy way. As most live culture probiotics contain lactose and/or goat's milk as inactive ingredients, its important to start with a small amount at first like part of a capsule to see how well your cat tolerates this. Probiotics in general, are quite safe for cats. You will also need to keep the probiotics in the fridge to keep the culture alive.

I did read some of your thread from the link you posted, and see that you tried Nature's Variety. I tried some of this as well, but then realized afterward that it had montmorillonite clay in it

  which may be okay for most cats. But if a cat is currently experiencing constipation, its probably not a good idea to introduce food that has clay in it. There are three kinds - Sodium, Calcium and Pascalite. NV features two of these, the Calcium (which is okay) and the Sodium (which I have read is not so okay). I only served a bit of the NV thinking that it might compound the problem of constipation, but will need to do a little more research as NV is a good food in general.

I have recently started serving some GO Brand Duck and Natural Balance Venison and Pea which are limited ingredient grain-free canned foods, to try different proteins from the Wellness Chicken grain-free that I have been serving. So far everyone is liking this food. You might want to look into both the Natural Balance and GO Brand Duck, if you are looking for a good limited ingredient canned food. The following are links to both foods :

Natural Balance LID : http://www.naturalbalanceinc.com/product.aspx?ProductId=43&

GO Brand Duck Sensitivity and Shine : http://www.petcurean.com/for-cats/go/sensitivity-and-shine-grain-free-duck-pate

Best of luck with the SEB. Please let us know how this goes.

 

[oneandahalfcats]

Just posting a bit of an update for those who may still be tuning in ...

This past week I did an experiment in that I have been giving probiotic since Monday, but no SEB. The result is that Max has been maintaining his routine of going every day and sometimes every second day, which is awesome. I think in the long run, the probiotic has more to offer and so will discontinue the SEB for now. I will be keeping the SEB handy however, as it does work when needed for constipation and IBS related issues.

The other recent modification is a change from Wellness Grain-free chicken canned food to GO Brand Duck Sensitivity canned. I think Max needs a break from all things chicken for awhile. I will be rotating with Duck, Venison, Lamb and maybe throw in some chicken later on, just not as often. My hope is that Max will do a bit better on this food with the weight loss he needs to do. The chicken liver content of the Wellness can't be helping matters in this respect and is quite high in cholesterol (actually higher than Beef) which makes for another good reason to get off this food.

Wellness is a good food, but would be more suitable for more active cats I think.

Still pursuing the raw food diet, but I think for my crew at their age, this will be in the form of the raw frozen diet as in Nature' s Variety Instinct Raw or other similar product, as a starting point and see how this goes.

The next step will be to transition away from the dry food entirely.

 

[irinasak]

Thank you for the update.

I am in a similar place. I do not want to discontinue the SEB (twice a week, now), but I want to increase the probiotics - so on the days Sophie is having SEB, she will only have it in the afternoon I think, leaving the mornings and evenings for the probiotic. I have come to this decision because I am increasing the raw meals frequency and I think we need more the probiotic than the SEB.

Is Max eating all that you mentioned? I mean if he likes all the flavors. Sophie is very picky. Can you remind me, please, how old they are?

 

[oneandahalfcats]

 
Thank you for the update.

I am in a similar place. I do not want to discontinue the SEB (twice a week, now), but I want to increase the probiotics - so on the days Sophie is having SEB, she will only have it in the afternoon I think, leaving the mornings and evenings for the probiotic. I have come to this decision because I am increasing the raw meals frequency and I think we need more the probiotic than the SEB.

Is Max eating all that you mentioned? I mean if he likes all the flavors. Sophie is very picky. Can you remind me, please, how old they are?

Yes, Max seems to like it all. 

  Its Maggie my little female who is the picky one. She doesn't care for pate type canned and so often she would not eat the Wellness. So far she is okay with the GO Brand pate, but I expect at some point that she will turn her nose up at it. So I keep some chunky Duck on hand for her. Max gets rodent ulcers occasionally and seems to be more prone to allergies which is another reason why I want to slow down on the chicken. He has been getting L-Lysine which seems to be helping. I think the probiotic can only help with this too, as when there is optimum digestion, the immune system works that much better.

Max is currently going on 10 years old. Maggie is right behind him at 7+ years, and Thomas is approaching 2. Not so concerned with Thomas as far as diet or elimination as he is really quite healthy.

Does Sophie have any issues with pancreatitis?

 

[snugglecat]

I am so glad to hear Max is doing so well

and that the probiotics is working for him. Now if I could just get Peaches to eat her food with the probiotics in I think she would be doing much better. She is will eat her food with the miralax so I guess I can't ask too much from her.

I was wondering if the Go brand has any fish in the food? Peaches is allergic to anything with fish in it so it's hard to find canned food for her. Right now she is eating Blue Wilderness Turkey, Wild Calling Turkey and sometimes Nature's Variety Limited ingredient again it's in Turkey. She will not eat anything but turkey for some reason. She will not eat the Wellness anymore so I stopped buying it but now she is getting tired of the Blue Wilderness. She is so picky and I'm having a hard time finding canned food she will eat or won't cause an allergic reaction.

She had her anal glands expressed as that was her last problem for not having regular BM's and is now going every other day.

 

[oneandahalfcats]

 
I am so glad to hear Max is doing so well

and that the probiotics is working for him. Now if I could just get Peaches to eat her food with the probiotics in I think she would be doing much better. She is will eat her food with the miralax so I guess I can't ask too much from her.

I was wondering if the Go brand has any fish in the food? Peaches is allergic to anything with fish in it so it's hard to find canned food for her. Right now she is eating Blue Wilderness Turkey, Wild Calling Turkey and sometimes Nature's Variety Limited ingredient again it's in Turkey. She will not eat anything but turkey for some reason. She will not eat the Wellness anymore so I stopped buying it but now she is getting tired of the Blue Wilderness. She is so picky and I'm having a hard time finding canned food she will eat or won't cause an allergic reaction.

She had her anal glands expressed as that was her last problem for not having regular BM's and is now going every other day.

Hello there, and Thanks

The GO Brand line does have about four varieties that contain fish, and five that don't. One of the varieties is just Turkey. I thought this line had Venison but I think I am confusing the GO with the Natural Balance which I also tried recently. It has Venison and Pea. Here is a link to all of the canned GO varieties : http://www.petcurean.com/for-cats/go/. In looking at the ingredients again just now, I noticed that it doesn't have any carageenan in it, just the guar gum, so bonus!

Here is a link to the Natural Balance line : http://www.naturalbalanceinc.com/pr...ductCategoryID=6&category=Cat+Canned+Formulas

That's really great that you can have some assurance that expressing her anal glands can get her out of trouble with the constipation. Knowing is half battle I find.

 

[irinasak]

Yes, Max seems to like it all.  :lol3:   Its Maggie my little female who is the picky one. She doesn't care for pate type canned and so often she would not eat the Wellness. So far she is okay with the GO Brand pate, but I expect at some point that she will turn her nose up at it. So I keep some chunky Duck on hand for her. Max gets rodent ulcers occasionally and seems to be more prone to allergies which is another reason why I want to slow down on the chicken. He has been getting L-Lysine which seems to be helping. I think the probiotic can only help with this too, as when there is optimum digestion, the immune system works that much better.

Max is currently going on 10 years old. Maggie is right behind him at 7+ years, and Thomas is approaching 2. Not so concerned with Thomas as far as diet or elimination as he is really quite healthy.

Does Sophie have any issues with pancreatitis?

Your cat family seems really nice and they all appear to be so different.

Sophie is the unfortunate resault of my poor judgement, feeding her mostly Royal Canin kibble for almost a year. Only after I adopted Harley and Amelie I realised Sophie was suffering from chronic constipation. Soon after, she had fresh blood on her stool. This and the poor appetite she always had were her only symptoms. The vet called the blood idiopathic, as in 'we have no idea'. After many trials and errors, what really helped was wet food and SEB.

 

[oneandahalfcats]

Your cat family seems really nice and they all appear to be so different.

Sophie is the unfortunate resault of my poor judgement, feeding her mostly Royal Canin kibble for almost a year. Only after I adopted Harley and Amelie I realised Sophie was suffering from chronic constipation. Soon after, she had fresh blood on her stool. This and the poor appetite she always had were her only symptoms. The vet called the blood idiopathic, as in 'we have no idea'. After many trials and errors, what really helped was wet food and SEB.

Thank you. Yes, they are quite the mixed bag ..

It's been a journey and after all this time, I too think that wet food and supplements are the best way of dealing with the constipation ultimately. Healthier too.

Sophie's experiences sound almost identical to Max's in that Max had diarrhea and shots of red blood as the result of a change from one dry kibble to another and then the constipation started happening more frequently. We spent about a year on Royal Canin High Fibre for the constipation which did work on one level, but Max got so bloated on the RC and his stools were huge and smelly, that I knew the food was going right through him and therefore, not good. I figured we could do a lot better for the price we were paying.

Sound to me like the red blood that Sophie experienced 'could' have been from straining, or an allergic reaction to something in the food? Glad that this is a thing of the past and that the wet food (and SEB) is helping greatly. Wish all the best for Sophie, that she can continue to improve and get stronger in her eating. She looks like a real sweetie. 

 

[tdonline]

Since everyone's providing updates, I'll join in too.  It's a mixed bag here.  The success story is  Josie.  She is now averaging a BM every other day.  Last week she went 3 days in a row (yippee) but has since reverted to skipping a day.  Occasionally she has a blip and will skip 2 days and I worry a bit.  But she bounces back and we haven’t had any 3 day waits.  On average, she's going about 4 times a week now.  

Dory, on the other hand is still on the 5 day schedule.  Last week, she actually went 5 days and 3 days and I thought, "wow, a breakthrough!"  But alas, she waited 5 days this week.  Today was day #5 and I decided to give her a suppository because I didn't want to go to work and have her not go all day.  I'm going to be a little more proactive and see if I can lower the 5 days to 4...so from now if she's not going by morning of day four, she gets half a ped suppository.   It's one reason I'm updating now.  Hopefully my foolishness will benefit others.

The first time I used a suppository with Dory, I cut it in half.  I won't get into the details (but go back to earlier posts if you want the story).  It didn’t work right away so I thought next time, I’ll use a bigger portion. Plus, having a bigger item to hold will make it easier to ‘slip in’. Okay, I tried that today and I was wrong, wrong, wrong.  The problem with a bigger suppository is that halfway in, the suppository would bend and fall out before I could push all the way in.  This happens when you have a squirming cat. Dummy me, I kept trying and trying before the brain started engaging.  Poor Dory. So I cut a half piece, lubed it up and once I found the opening, it slid right in.  There wasn’t enough of it to bend, pop out, etc.  She was digging her litterbox about 30 seconds after.  I’m not even sure it was the suppository itself but I imagine all that agitation in that area of butt was enough to stimulate action.  I sensed a suppository would work as I could see her anus popping out.  She had a payload but still needed a little stimulation to get her to go.  Lesson learned—go with the smaller suppository.  And even if you think you need more, it’s easier to pop in 2 small pieces rather than a long one. 

Dory has settled into waiting 4-5 days and I need to unsettle this schedule.  So, as undignified as using a suppository is—Dory’s getting them until she’s on a better schedule.  At this point I’d happily settle for every 3 days.  Both Josie and Dory’s poop are formed but soft.  So even though Dory’s taking her time, it’s not dehydrated down there.  I just got to get her to go more often!

 

[tdonline]

I just wanted to add, if you are going to use a suppository--check with your vet.  My vet recommended it as one step in the process.  Also make sure your cat is well-hydrated as the suppository pulls water into the colon.  Dory eats a primarily canned food diet with added water.  I will also syringe water.  I did so last night in anticipation of suppository usage and I'll do so again tonight to make up for this morning's administration.  

 

[oneandahalfcats]

 
Since everyone's providing updates, I'll join in too.  It's a mixed bag here.  The success story is  Josie.  She is now averaging a BM every other day.  Last week she went 3 days in a row (yippee) but has since reverted to skipping a day.  Occasionally she has a blip and will skip 2 days and I worry a bit.  But she bounces back and we haven’t had any 3 day waits.  On average, she's going about 4 times a week now.  

Dory, on the other hand is still on the 5 day schedule.  Last week, she actually went 5 days and 3 days and I thought, "wow, a breakthrough!"  But alas, she waited 5 days this week.  Today was day #5 and I decided to give her a suppository because I didn't want to go to work and have her not go all day.  I'm going to be a little more proactive and see if I can lower the 5 days to 4...so from now if she's not going by morning of day four, she gets half a ped suppository.   It's one reason I'm updating now.  Hopefully my foolishness will benefit others.

The first time I used a suppository with Dory, I cut it in half.  I won't get into the details (but go back to earlier posts if you want the story).  It didn’t work right away so I thought next time, I’ll use a bigger portion. Plus, having a bigger item to hold will make it easier to ‘slip in’. Okay, I tried that today and I was wrong, wrong, wrong.  The problem with a bigger suppository is that halfway in, the suppository would bend and fall out before I could push all the way in.  This happens when you have a squirming cat. Dummy me, I kept trying and trying before the brain started engaging.  Poor Dory. So I cut a half piece, lubed it up and once I found the opening, it slid right in.  There wasn’t enough of it to bend, pop out, etc.  She was digging her litterbox about 30 seconds after.  I’m not even sure it was the suppository itself but I imagine all that agitation in that area of butt was enough to stimulate action.  I sensed a suppository would work as I could see her anus popping out.  She had a payload but still needed a little stimulation to get her to go.  Lesson learned—go with the smaller suppository.  And even if you think you need more, it’s easier to pop in 2 small pieces rather than a long one. 

Dory has settled into waiting 4-5 days and I need to unsettle this schedule.  So, as undignified as using a suppository is—Dory’s getting them until she’s on a better schedule.  At this point I’d happily settle for every 3 days.  Both Josie and Dory’s poop are formed but soft.  So even though Dory’s taking her time, it’s not dehydrated down there.  I just got to get her to go more often!

Thanks for sharing tdonline ... That's helpful information about the suppositories for anyone contemplating using this method!

Great to hear that Josie has settled into a regular routine of BMs 

Its also good to hear that when Dory does go, the BMs are soft which is some consolation. Seeing as you are syringe feeding water, it wouldn't be a huge leap to start syringe feeding with SEB to try (if you haven't already) and get Dory to go more often.  Also, probiotics may help as well in improving her digestion which in turn might result in more BMs. Some probiotics through the production of lactic acid and fatty acids can lower the pH in the colon and in turn heighten muscle contractions along the colon (peristalis) to enhance regularity.

Hope things will continue to get better and better for Josie and Dory! ...

****************************************************

IMPORTANT NOTE OF THANKS TO ALL

My thanks to EVERYONE who has contributed to this thread. It is my hope and motivation that the collective experiences that have been provided here, can in turn help others who are dealing with a constipated cat. I know they have helped me a lot.

 

[tdonline]

One, the girls get probiotics.  It seems to work for Josie, but is immune to Dory's super constipation powers.