Redirected cat aggression--separation making it worse?

I have started a new thread with a more apt subject title.  The initial story was in the aberrant pooping reaction thread but I've discovered that the hostility was started by a neighborhood cat visiting.

I live in a small one bedroom apartment and basically all I can do is divide the apartment into 2 areas for the cats.  I can't assign them their own rooms, etc.  The hallway door divides the bedroom/bathroom from the kitchen/living room.

There must be something I'm doing wrong and/or the setup isn't optimal.  The aggressor cat, Dory, has gotten more and more aggressive and agitated during separation.  Her sister, Josie, reacts strongly but Dory is the instigator.  I feel the hallway door only separation isn't giving Dory enough room to recover.  I can only be in one half of the apartment at a time. And whoever I'm not with--will cry at the door.  The difference is Josie acts normally when she is around me.  Obviously if Dory is particularly vocal, it piques Josie but otherwise Josie can focus on being with me.

Dory, on the other hand, is still agitated when I'm with her.  She is constantly looking at the hallway door.  I can't calm her down.  And generally I feel bad she is so obviously unhappy and uneasy.  So I don't feel like the separation is really helping her.  I don't think not separating is the answer either.  But how I can get Dory to calm down in our setup?

Tonight was the worst night since this ordeal started last weekend.  Dory was crying while I washed the dishes so I went into her area to comfort her.  Josie was napping in the living room.  But the opening of the door must have woken Josie and she came to the hallway door and sat there, peering through the slit between door and frame.  This set Dory off and basically I had two cats in fight mode with only the door preventing actual contact.  It was particularly bad because I couldn't get Dory to calm down at all and she actually looked over to me in the bedroom (from the hallway) very menacingly.  I was bracing myself for redirected aggression.  I closed the bedroom door a couple of times as I feared she was going to charge me.  Eventually I was able to get her to come towards me without anger and into the carrier.  I quickly left the bedroom and closed the door.  I turned off the light.  I then closed the hallway door for another layer from her and Josie.  

Meanwhile Josie was spooked too, but unlike Dory, she wasn't aggressive towards me.

I feel awful for Dory but I feel the best thing I can do is to just leave her alone, ignore her cries and let her calm down.  But with the way the apartment is set up and with access to the litterbox in the bathroom, isolating her to the bedroom and keeping the two door system is really going to be tough.  Complicating the issue is that I will be away for half of December.  I feel like I need to regain some peace before I fly away.

Any suggestions here?  How I can improve how the separation works?  How can I get Dory to be "normal" in her area without sitting at the door in guard/attack mode.  They are both guilty of sitting at the door and staring and if there's the slightest crack in the frame it turns into a staring contest. The difference is Josie does it because I left her area and she has always been the velcro cat.  Dory stares at the door/Josie even when I'm with her.  I can't get her to be herself with me.

Staring has led to two failed reconciliation from earlier this week.  They were able to spend a few hours together in the living room but locked eyes and it all kicked off again.  Very scary when this happens.  I guess I should count as positive that they haven't turned on me yet.

Have you tried calming treats?  They sell them on Amazon and they work like a charm.  (plug in Composure Treats).  I used them for a short time with our alpha male, who decided everyone was going to kow-tow to him or else.  After a few days, he was sufficiently chilled to stop them.

I have feliway plugged in and also the spray.  I have to remember when I spray though as my apartment is small so everywhere is going to be close to one of the litterboxes.  I'm also giving the cats Rescue Remedy.  I'm heading to Petsmart later today and will look for the calming treats.

The problem goes back to the crying.  The first issue is that one cat hears the other crying so that breaks the total isolation process.  Luckily Dory is relaxing around me now even when her sister cries.  She's sleeping and cleaning when I'm with here.  But she still gets keyed up when I leave the room and will sit at the door and cry.

The other problem with the crying are my neighbors.  I'm so anxious about it because the walls are paper thin and I know they must hear my cats.  One of them is away this weekend but what about when they return.  Ironically, i had  just asked them to keep the noise down only last week    Adding to the noise, Josie, not only cries but will pound at the door and since it's a sliding one, it rattles a lot.  Not only disturbing Dory but I'm sure, my neighbors.

I'm hoping going back to square one and starting from total separation will bring my cats back to a peaceful co-existence.  I can't bear the thought they may be permanent enemies.  With my apartment, permanent separation isn't sustainable.  

I feel your pain, I have two cats who do not at all along and decided on absolute separation for the time being...and it breaks one's heart, how the isolated cat will cry and cry. Especially when you know there's no quick fix like food.

Last night, I slept with Dory in the bedroom while I kept Josie in a carrier in the living room (so she wouldn't pound on the door at midnight).  After about 90 minutes, I Ieft Dory and slept on the sofa with Josie.  I think Dory cried a little but I ignored her and fell asleep.  With the weekend ending and the work week starting, I'm thinking of putting both cats in their carriers and putting them on either side of the bed.  I'm hoping that will stop the crying and my neighbors won't have to hear them.  On the other hand, I'm afraid of setting the total separation process back.  I'm also not sure how they will react to staying in a carrier for 7 hours or so.

Should I try this?  Or just repeat what I did last night?

Try the composure treats.  They really help.  I used them on a stray I brought inside who would cry all night.  I would give him 3 treats before bed and in about 30 minutes he would calm down and sleep most of the night. 

Since you don't have another room, the carriers may have to do.  I would try covering them with a light sheet as it is known to help them calm down.  I am sure they will not like it. 

You might want to try complete reintroductions.  That would be completely separating the cats for a time period.  You also could use/borrow/buy a large dog crate.  One of the cats could be put in there for awhile.  Also what about using the bathroom?

Here is a link to cat to cat introductions.  It is also used for reintroductions.

http://www.thecatsite.com/a/introducing-cats-to-cats

I bought GNC treats from Petsmart, they seem to work a little bit.  But I have to give at least 2 at a time.  I'll try the Composure treats when I'm done with the GNC ones.  

I did have them in the same space last night--Josie in a carrier and Dory in an enclosed stroller.  They had towels covering most of the sight lines and were placed out of sight of each other.  I had to do it because in the evening, my neighbors are home and I didn't want the cats taking turns wailing.  Josie made it difficult though because she cried while in her carrier.  This obviously wasn't great for Dory.  So it's not really a solution.

Dory cries, but Josie WAILS.  And it's pretty much undermining the point of the total separation process.  Josie's crying is so prolonged and loud that it unnerves Dory.  Today, even though I was spending time with her in the bedroom (which she cries for), Dory hid under the bed because of Josie's wailing.

Basically the only relative peace and quiet possible is if I stay with Josie. Only because Dory's crying isn't as loud and prolonged. But that leaves Dory alone for long stretches of time.  Basically this separation is great for stopping the fights, but I'm afraid it's not very good in terms creating a happy reconciliation mood.  And isn't that the point of separation and reintroduction?

I'm taking Dory to the vet tomorrow.  I wonder if Josie should go to too?  I don't think it's a health issue with her though.  I've always said she was more like a dog than a cat and any type of separation has always been difficult for her.  It's not even all about me really.  I call her Mrs. Kravitz--the nosy neighbor from Bewitched.  She's always gotta be in everyone's business and to be shut out is intolerable.

Last night, to shut her up so I could spend some time with Dory, I left Josie in the closet.  Josie was quiet, very quiet and she looked so hurt when opened the closet door.  She actually wouldn't budge for awhile...I mean it was nice to have it quiet for awhile...but I felt terrible.  

Taking one or both of them to the vet is a good idea.  Start by calling the vet and asking for a suggestion.  It's best to start with a clean bill of health first.  Maybe the vet can help with some suggestions on quieting them down.  I can understand wanting them to keep quiet with neighbors. 

When I give the Composure treats, I have to give 3 at a time to make a difference.  When I was having major territorial aggression between my two males, I started using Composure Liquid Max.  It would go into their wet food 2x a day.  It worked very quickly and lasted about 6-8 hours.  The directions say that you can double and/or triple the dosage during times of stress. 

You can also try calming music.  I like to play harp music for cats.  With my wild guy I used to play the harp music all night for him. 

Have you been to Jackson Galaxy's site?  He has a show on Animal Planet called My Cat from H*ll.  He has tons of suggestions for people with cats that don't get along and once did.  His motto is Eat, Play, Love.  He suggests playing with the cats at first separately to the point they are exhausted.  He loves the da Bird toy and laser pointers.  Get the cat exhausted and then reward them with a delicious special treat.  You want something new and different such as a bit of chicken or tuna or a special delicious treat reserved just for after playing.  You want to do each cat individually at first and then you can move to trying them together.  Take a look at his site.  He has some great ideas.

The vet prescribed prozac.  He didn't think there were any underlying health issues.  He thinks starting prozac and getting the cats out of the stressful state is the way to go.  Any longer in the stressful situation and it could lead to spraying and inappropriate pooping.  As much as I feel like a feline mommy failure, I think he's right.  The priority is get the cats to relax, otherwise the separation period isn't doing any good.

Shadow, I am doing many of the things recommended--I've always been a big proponent of giving my cats proper stimulation and attention since they are indoor cats in a small space.  I even take them out on the leash (obviously can't do that anymore if the neighborhood cat continues to roam).  The problem is all of those efforts are being undermined by the crying and separation anxiety of each cat. When I'm with Dory--giving her pets, playing with her--all she cares about is that Josie is crying on the other end of the hallway.  To the point, that Dory will just hide under the bed or act very agitated.  The same to a lesser extent when I'm with Josie.  Late at night, I play really hard with Josie, fed her and turn off the lights and quickly go into the bedroom with Dory. Turn off the lights there too and be very quiet.  For the last 3 nights, it's worked--Josie hasn't cried or only a little.  I'm assuming she then sleeps in her carrier.  I'm deathly afraid that this is going to stop one night and she will wail all night outside the hallway door.  At that point, I don't know what I will do as my neighbors will probably be in a murderous mood.  I'm hoping the prozac kicks in before Josie figures it out.

I have separated the sisters completely going back 16 days.  They have been on prozac for aImost 2 weeks.

Today I got careless and thought I could keep Josie in the hallway while I slipped out.  Of course she wiggled through my legs and ran straight into the living room.  Whereupon Dory came flying out of her stroller and cornered her in the cat tree.  Oh gosh, that was so awful to see and hear.  I had a towel that I used to steer Dory away but she went back a couple of times to beat on Josie.  I finally wrapped Dory with the towel and took her to the bedroom where I have left her.  I'm surprised and grateful she didn't resist.

My heart is still pounding and my hands are shaking as I type.  I really, really screwed up awful.  I had started allowing only one door separation between the cats today. I fed them treats on either side of the door.  I played with them. Pet them.  

They are on prozac and yet...the fight today was just as bad as ever.  Dory was just as aggressive.  

I know this is part of the process but I'm really despondent.  Why did I let Josie slip through?  I can't see how they will ever live together again.

tdonline, you weren't joking, we ARE going through nearly the same thing.  The only difference is my cats are boys, and you've been going through it longer and have tried more stuff.  I hope it goes well for you, I will be looking for your follow-up posts.

Yeah, I hope I'll be able to update this thread with a success story...At this point, the cats are allowed visual sighting of each other as I leave the sliding doors with an 1-2 inches open.  They also spend about an hour or so with one in the carrier/stroller and the other free to roam the apartment.  They still get a little agitated in these circumstances, especially Dory.  You can see her pacing or in a stiffened pose but I'm hoping that the go slow process will ease those anxieties.  I'm giving myself months to resolve this, not weeks.

Surprising episode today...

For context, Dory and Josie are still separated.  It's taken awhile as there have been health issues complicating the situation.

This morning I placed Josie in the bedroom and as usual, left the sliding door slightly opened.  Dory was switched to the living room where I was working.  I got on an important work call.  I could hear the door rattling and I put that down to Josie trying to get out as usual (her spot is the living room). I knew Dory was probably there fascinated by Josie's struggles.  I usually cut out the whining and rattling but since I was on the call, I had to let it go.

As I'm on the call, I hear a cat walking towards me and expected to see Dory...but instead it's Josie!  She must have squeezed herself through the opened door slot.  She was followed by Dory.  My heart was in my throat!  I scooped up Josie and separated the cats again.  

I was pleasantly shocked Dory wasn't attacking Josie.  Now I wonder if I can accelerate the reintro process and allow them to interact without the door?  I have to say this has happened once before.  Way back in the beginning before prozac and long separation--Josie got out of the closet, walked by Dory and nothing happened.  I thought well, okay, they're fine and allowed them to be out together.  They hung out in the living room and fell asleep.  Well a few hours later, they woke up from their naps and made eye contact and boom, a fight.  Should I continue to be overly cautious and keep them separated?  I obviously want them to live together as soon as possible but I don't want another fight to set us back 2 months of the reintro process.

That's a tough call.  We're still in the same boat with Jake and our other cats, mostly Rico. Every time I think I see signs of them mellowing, something happens and we have to break up something.  Last time Jake actually tried to climb up the catio wire to get to Rico on the other side.  Yikes.  Glad there was a wire fence separating them.

I unfortunately have no advice as I haven't had any success with mine yet!  But I was wondering how the Prozac worked out--do you think it has helped at all?

Betsy, how long have Rico and Jake been separated?  A vet tech told me her office had a client with two cats who have been separated over a year and on medication--and they still can't be reconciled ;(

Prozac helped in taking off the murderous edge off of Dory.  But otherwise it's been a very mixed bag.  On 2.5mg daily, Dory would still attack Josie on a of couple of accidental meetings.  Being on 5mg has definitely helped but then there are the side effects.  And even on 5mg, Dory still shows signs subtle of anxiety when she sees Josie.  Josie is on 2.5mg and she will still sometimes back away from Dory interacting through the door and hide on the side, just out of view.  Dory and Josie to a lesser extent, have suffered severe constipation.  They also have urinary retention.  They used to pee 2-3 times daily and now it's once a day.  Sometimes twice if it's a good day.  

This has resulted in lots of stress, phone consultations with the vet and a desperation  visit last week (Dory hadn't pooed in a week, Josie in 4 days).  I signed off on $1,400 worth of procedures, but the vet actually talked me out of them.   He advised me to step up on ways to get to poo at home.  He said a one time enema wasn't going to help in the long run and after examination, didn't feel the cats were in any crises (no hard/enlarged colon).  We changed the dosing to every other day to see if the side effects would subside.  And honestly, it really hasn't for Dory.  Josie seems to be pooing a lot better now so that's good news.  The downside of dosing every other day is they seem to be on a roller coaster.  On the non-dosage days, they are particularly lethargic.  Maybe it just takes awhile for them to adjust?  I'm surprised by this result as I had read prozac has a long shelf life.  The vet said as much when he recommended the alternative day dosings.

BTW, since they weren't aggressive with each other today, I thought it a good time to move onto the screen door/window stage.  I bought a tall (5ft?) window that is just slightly wider than the door frames.  I place it against a door frame and use tension rods to hold the screen in place (narrow hallway).  Once I had in place, Dory ran into it...twice.  I mean like, head on...I think she saw the door was open and as usual, she made a beeline to the living room (where the sun shine).  I guess the screen is pretty transparent if you're unfamiliar with it.  Poor thing, let's just say she's a little afraid of it.  I had to entice her from under the bed with treats each time I inserted and removed the screen.  It does make a racket.

tdonline said:

 
Betsy, how long have Rico and Jake been separated?  A vet tech told me her office had a client with two cats who have been separated over a year and on medication--and they still can't be reconciled ;(

Prozac helped in taking off the murderous edge off of Dory.  But otherwise it's been a very mixed bag.  On 2.5mg daily, Dory would still attack Josie on a of couple of accidental meetings.  Being on 5mg has definitely helped but then there are the side effects.  And even on 5mg, Dory still shows signs subtle of anxiety when she sees Josie.  Josie is on 2.5mg and she will still sometimes back away from Dory interacting through the door and hide on the side, just out of view.  Dory and Josie to a lesser extent, have suffered severe constipation.  They also have urinary retention.  They used to pee 2-3 times daily and now it's once a day.  Sometimes twice if it's a good day.  

This has resulted in lots of stress, phone consultations with the vet and a desperation  visit last week (Dory hadn't pooed in a week, Josie in 4 days).  I signed off on $1,400 worth of procedures, but the vet actually talked me out of them.   He advised me to step up on ways to get to poo at home.  He said a one time enema wasn't going to help in the long run and after examination, didn't feel the cats were in any crises (no hard/enlarged colon).  We changed the dosing to every other day to see if the side effects would subside.  And honestly, it really hasn't for Dory.  Josie seems to be pooing a lot better now so that's good news.  The downside of dosing every other day is they seem to be on a roller coaster.  On the non-dosage days, they are particularly lethargic.  Maybe it just takes awhile for them to adjust?  I'm surprised by this result as I had read prozac has a long shelf life.  The vet said as much when he recommended the alternative day dosings.

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It's been almost a year.  I've reconciled myself to the fact that they probably won't ever cohabitate.  I'm very fortunate in that we have a cat room and catio where Jake and Hannah live so they have plenty of space, they keep each other company, and I don't feel like I'm 'warehousing' Jake in some room alone for the rest of his life.  Hannah's the other inherited kitty who never integrated well with our resident cats.  I think if Jake passed away (he's 14 and has IBD, she's 10), we could get her to integrate with ours with some work, but for now, she and Jake are buddies, and she's a bit of a loner anyway so I haven't really tried.  

I was thinking about talking to my vet about Prozac for Jake--he gets super agitated sometimes, even going after Hannah a couple of times.  (She seems to know his moods and when he starts growling or hunkering down for an attack, she jumps  into the safety of one of her cubbyholes and lets him cool off.  It doesn't happen often and they seem to have worked it out.  LOL)  But the poor guy, apart from his 'anger management' issues, has IBD which makes him sick and irritable sometimes, and he's also gone mostly deaf and I think is still adjusting to that.  I may forego any more more meds and just stay with the plan of lots of TLC and keeping him separate from our three, especially Rico.

An update on the re-introduction process for Dory and Josie and a request for some advice.

They are still separated but are not isolated.  The sliding door is always left slightly open.  They can be in the same room together but one has to be in the stroller or carrier.   They are comfortable with this arrangement and do not exhibit signs of anxiety.  The cat out will go right up to the cat in the stroller or carrier and say hi and then go about their business.  The contained cat is chilled out.  The only time we can do this for long periods is in the afternoons when they slumber for hours on end.   Otherwise I do not keep them contained for too long for fear they hold when they should be using the litter box. 

I also will keep them separated but with a window screen as a divider rather than the door.  This way they have a fuller view of the apartment and each other.  The issue is that they are afraid of the screen when it’s being put in and taken out of position.  Dory, for example, will hide under the bed.  Eventually she does come out and am I’m hoping the anxiety will lessen.  But I’m not sure how much the screen is helping in terms of their relation because they don’t really like to come up close to it.  I think it’s better in terms of making Dory, the cat who is usually in the bedroom, feel like she’s part of the household since I’m usually out in the kitchen/living room.  I can’t place Josie in the bedroom for too long as she acts up (to the point where she will jam her head in the opening of the sliding door and shimmy her way through).  So Dory has to stay there for the majority of the time. 

This week I started harnessing them and having them out without a barrier (door, container).  As I’m the only person around, I have to leash them to a heavy item.  I feed them copious amounts of treats.  But as usual, Josie is a little anxious but primarily interested in breaking free and just being the adventurer she is.  She can be distracted by playing and eating.  The main concern is of course, Dory.  She is definitely not happy with this exercise.  I gave her a longer leash so she can retreat to the bedroom and she does.  She is on guard and even though she loves kibbles and treats, after a few minutes, she will even stop eating.  I feel like I need to push forward with this because I do not want them (or primarily Dory) to get too used to separation.  Is a little fear and anxiety on Dory’s part okay?  Or should I back off?

I also noticed that they will squabble through the sliding door occasionally.  Just a lot of reaching and punching.  There is no scary growling and flattened ears though.  So far, I do watch closely but do not interfere.  Should I?  Right now I feel that as long as it’s not overly violent or malicious, they should be allowed to work it out.  But I’m worried that by doing this they are learning it’s okay to be hostile to each other.  And that without the door, they would really go at it.  Should I put a stop to it as soon as it begins?

Hi, TD, I met with a cat behaviorist last week to help me with a reintroduction plan when I bring George back into the house.  She gave me step by step instructions and I think you're at the last step (actual reintroduction).  I bolded the part about squabbling/hissing. She says:

"Step 3: Actual re­introduction
The next step would be to give the cats BRIEF supervised time together. This would be a
good time to have lots of treats and toys available (and someone who can help you).
Try to stay calm when integrating ­ aiming for short sessions at first.
Have pillows, blankets and large pieces of cardboard ready to block visual assess if they
start to get grumpy.
In general:
● Start at a distance (e.g. either end of your living room)
● At first, keep the cats distracted with toys or treats/meals
● Control the environment as much as possible: limit inaccessible hiding spots
where they could go if they have an altercation. (Block under chairs/shelving)
● Don’t correct for hissing or vocalization during introductions, simply use it as an
indication that the process may need to be slowed down a bit, but do reward when
there is none.  
● Keep sessions brief. Three 5­minutes sessions will be just as, if not more,
productive as one 15 minute session
When/if you need to intervene:
First, try to distract either cat before any aggressive moves or posturing ­ using a shake
can (an empty soda can with a few pennies in it) or dropping a book/pen.
Positive distraction is okay (such as a toy) as long as there is no actual aggression from
any cat.
Have a large piece of cardboard ready to block visual access if either cat seems stressed
out."
 

Not sure how helpful this is, but I think the general idea is to make sure they associate each other with positive experiences and that they see each other with relaxed body language.  It does sound like the squabbling your seeing is more normal kitty play stuff, but I agree, I would be really scared of what would happen without a barrier. Sorry this isn't more helpful.  You are so much further than me, so I appreciate your updates on how it's going with Dory and Josie!!

As for the screen, it seems that it's possible that they will just get more used to it as time goes by.  I think the benefits outweigh their fear of it.  I think it's ok for them to be afraid of it, as long as it doesn't trigger aggressive behavior that would set them off again.  Keep us updated!

Jill

I would think that Dory would eventually get used to the leash, it takes a while. To me, it sounds like you are doing every thing OK, and as long as they appear to be 'playing' and not violent through the door, it should be OK. Can they see each other, or is this a 'blind' groping? It would be better if they could see who they are playing with. The carrier idea is a great one, they could even be with a towel that the last one was in with to 'intermingle' smells! I pray you have good luck, I know my two took over a year to get along without somebody attacking the other, now they lick each other (but that can lead to fights too!) Bless you for trying so hard!