Sebastian is Back at the Vet...Suspected Pancreatitis Again :(

[ldg]

Well I'm glad the BMs, the fluids, and the cerenia made him feel better! Sorry about your sleep schedule....

FYI, it's pretty normal for a cat to be off their food if constipated. Spooky used to get constipated from time-to-time, and not eating at more than one meal consecutively was how I knew that was the issue. I would use miralax OR aloe vera and slippery elm bark powder to help. Using egg yolk lecithin seemed to really help regulate things, but she still got constipated, just not as frequently. There have been no issues (the longest run she's had now without getting constipated, knock wood) since putting her on the digestive enzymes.

 

[goholistic]

I think Sebastian is okay. Sorry about the premature scare. 

  He had another BM this morning, so that was three BMs in 24 hours. So....I think he was probably just backed up. The fluids will also help with this.

Onward...

 

[ldg]

:bigthumb: But that's great!

 

[hublebuble4]

Hope it will remain so, all well. All the best to you and Sebastian.

 

[ginny]

Just a few thoughts.  I have done some extensive reading about human diets recently after I had a health scare (actually it is ongoing but already improved after implementing a rather drastic diet.)  Cat food has many of the same ingredients we have in our food, like grain (I thought cats were obligate carnivores??) and such, so it's no wonder they have similar health problems like we do.   From what I've been reading about the Paleo diet, grain is a big problem.  Also vegetable oils are bad too.  

I wonder if your kitty is still reacting to some yet to be identified toxin?  It's good you have removed some allergens.  That probably has helped him a great deal.  I wonder if the removal has led to a toxin die-off which led to the "almost" relapse?  I think you're on the right track gradually switching over to wet food.  Also, the event log is a good idea too.

 

[goholistic]

I think Sebastian likes to scare me every once in awhile by slightly altering his routine. I freak. He [silently] laughs. 

  Bugger.  But then things will go back to the way they were.

Anyway, he is doing pretty good still. There was a NEW thing happening last week. About four different times (not consecutive and always in the morning), he would vomit a little bit of a clear liquid. Three out of those four times, it was either right before or after a bowel movement. Classic IBD? Stomach cramps? Excess acid? 

  He seems fine once I give him his morning meds, and he'll eat his breakfast. He already gets 1/4 tablet of Pepcid in the AM and PM. Possibly related is that he seems to be going poo a lot. Sometimes it's twice a day (AM and PM), and sometimes it's twice in a row within 15-30 minutes of the first. During one of these latter occurrences, I decided to guesstimate how much he actually pooed, and it was probably about 10-12 inches of stool. 

Sorry to be so....detailed. 

 

[tryingtorelax]

What are you feeding Sebastian?
Both of my cats have pancreatitis which is completely under control. I feed my Birman boys RadCat raw Turkey which is an especially prepared, complete well-balanced raw diet. I buy it at my pet store but not all places carry it and it may need to be special ordered. They also get 1/4 of a Cerenia, every other day, 1/4 of a famotidine (generic Pepcid AC) a.m and p.m, Pan X 5 which is a raw pancreatic enzyme in a capsule both am and pm, 1 milk thistle capsule each night and a probiotic once a day, Proviable DC. My cats move their bowels once a day, sometimes once every other day. Stools are nice and firm since using the raw diet, and all vomiting has completely stopped. I'd be interested to know what others do that works!
Good luck to Sebastian!!

 

[amythyst]

That sounds exactly like what Fievel was doing... what my vet and I tried to guestimate was that he was getting nauseous from the strain of going to the bathroom.  Especially when he was having diarrhea because I think he was trying to go so badly but stuff wasn't really coming out.  He wasn't actually vomiting but it was just saliva that would start drooling out.  I could relate personally (lol) cause when I feel like I'm going to vomit I start salavating quite a bit and have to spit it out.  But generally, I won't actually throw up (some medication I take can make me nauseous).   

Is he still taking anti nausea meds (aside from the pepcid?).  Perhaps he needs an anti nausea pill before bedtime instead of getting it in the mornings after this happens.  Fievel was the same way and seemed to have this problem in the mornings before breakfast and when he was trying to take his morning BM.    

 

[ldg]

Did you receive the HT rabbit and organs? I know you wanted to introduce it slowly, one thing at a time (as eating an unbalanced diet for a short period isn't going to hurt him).

And did you and either of the vets make any decision about the digestive enzymes?

Or maybe keep him on the same food, but try it without the probiotics for a few days and see if his poop changes?

That is a really large volume of poop.

http://www.felineconstipation.org/poop.html

 

[catmum]

Hi All,

My Mummer has the inflammation problems too(bladder iritaton,stones,diarrhea) but not as severe. I was wondering if any of you with these problems address the anxiety stress component and how. I think Mummer is better when I take time to engage her with  Da Bird and other playthings. I read you should always give some treat or food bit after chase play to avoid the frustration of not killing something and not getting to eat it. I got her a big tree to climb on and hope when I'm away(6-7 weeks) she is entertained by it. She will  be confined to one room with lots of her stuff but always wants to be on other side of any door.. I think her main frustration is not being outside and  that adds to her "stress". We think that when we "rescue" a cat we are doing them a favor and of course their life is easier and longer but they are probably "happier" doing what cats do naturally in the wild. My caretakers don't have time to interact with her much and I think it is stressful for me too knowing she is lonely and bored which leads to her bowl problems ect. Right now she is doing well with canned quality food and Natures Variety Instinct limited ingredient  Rabbit dry as a supplement along with calming chews and UT support chews and probiotic "Super Powder" I sometimes think it would be good to buy her a live mouse just to satisfy that blood thirsty instinct but it makes me cringe thinking of how it would actually work It is the purrfect meal they say!.

 

[goholistic]

What are you feeding Sebastian?

He's currently on a limited ingredient, novel protein (rabbit) diet by Royal Canin (mostly wet). Thanks for sharing what works for your cats!

Is he still taking anti nausea meds (aside from the pepcid?).  Perhaps he needs an anti nausea pill before bedtime instead of getting it in the mornings after this happens.  Fievel was the same way and seemed to have this problem in the mornings before breakfast and when he was trying to take his morning BM.    

Yes, Sebastian is still on 1/4 of Cerenia daily Monday through Friday. Well, part of the problem, too, might be my fault. If I sleep in past their "scheduled" pilling and feeding time, then he's basically telling me it's time for the next round! 

  It's so funny how we talk about our cat's BMs. 

Did you receive the HT rabbit and organs? I know you wanted to introduce it slowly, one thing at a time (as eating an unbalanced diet for a short period isn't going to hurt him).

And did you and either of the vets make any decision about the digestive enzymes?

Or maybe keep him on the same food, but try it without the probiotics for a few days and see if his poop changes?

That is a really large volume of poop.

http://www.felineconstipation.org/poop.html

Yes, I received the HT rabbit. AND I made it tonight! (Monday night)  

  Well, I made the simpler version to start (using Balance It supplement). I figured the less the better at first. I will post in the "cooked rabbit" thread and let you all know how it went.

The digestive enzymes are next on my list of purchases, although the holistic vet doesn't really think they're needed.  

  I decided to introduce the new S. Boulardii I bought; this has been going on for just a couple of days. I haven't even introduced the krill oil, yet. I am still using up the Welactin for Cats, which he doesn't seem to mind now.

So you think the probiotics are making him poop more? He doesn't have diarrhea and the increase in BMs has only been going on for the past week. I did stop the probiotics for a short time, and he developed soft stools, so I had to start them back up.

@catmum, I address Sebastian's mental health with Feliway and Spirit Essences, along with other stress reducers specific to him. Have you tried these?

 

[goholistic]

   Feeling frustrated and need your thoughts.

So I mentioned that I made the cooked rabbit last night. After it cooled, I gave Sebastian a few nuggets of it as a treat. He seemed to really like it and was begging for more. 

  I had to discipline myself not to give him too much.

HOWEVER, this morning he acts like he doesn't feel well. He didn't really want to come into the kitchen and wait for his breakfast like he normally does when he's feeling well. He just sat in the dining room in the meatloaf position. I had to go to him to give him his morning meds (Pepcid, Cerenia, Metro, S. Boulardii). Within 20 minutes or so, I guess the meds kicked in and he came into the kitchen meowing. I put down the canned RC rabbit that he's been eating so readily for the past 2.5 months. He took a couple licks and then wanted nothing to do with it. I tried again and the same thing. He walked away but then came back again meowing. So I put down some dry RC rabbit and he ate that no problem. I waited several minutes and tried the wet again; still a no-go. What the heck? So he ate 1/8 cup of dry and only a few licks of wet. He usually eats at least a 1/2 can of wet at each meal. I had taken out a few nuggets of the cooked rabbit to give to him this morning, but after observing this behavior I was afraid that it had upset his stomach.  

  I was really hoping something so simple and natural wouldn't affect him negatively. What do you think?

 

[denice]

I really doubt that the cooked rabbit by itself when he has been doing well on rabbit cat food recently would do this.  Has his steroid dose been reduced recently?

 

[goholistic]

 
I really doubt that the cooked rabbit by itself when he has been doing well on rabbit cat food recently would do this.  Has his steroid dose been reduced recently?

No. He's still getting 5 mg of pred daily. Nothing else has changed. S. Boulardii was re-introduced this past Saturday, but that's it, and I'm only giving him a half capsule daily (2.5 billion CFU). He did well with this over the weekend and I did not observe any adverse reactions.

It's 12:00 noon here (and a snow day from work), so I went back downstairs to check on Sebastian and he followed me into the kitchen meowing for food like he's hungry. I put down the canned RC again, he took a couple licks and walked away. Grrrr.... I guess it's possible that it's a different batch, but it's got the same expiration date as the can I gave him last night (that he ate no problem). I put down a couple more morsels of RC dry so that he eats something and he ate that.

I guess I'm just having a difficult time determining if this is 1) pickiness from a new can/batch of RC canned rabbit, 2) pickiness because he now prefers the cooked rabbit over the canned, or 3) he's nauseous and therefore refusing the canned because it's richer, and I wonder if the nausea is caused from the cooked rabbit I gave him last night or if its just a coincidence. I only want to lean towards option 3 because he wasn't excited about coming into the kitchen for breakfast to begin with until his meds kicked in. If he acted hungry and excited from the beginning and then refused the canned, then I would lean towards option 1 or 2.

P.S. He did have a BM a hour before breakfast, so I don't think it was BM pains.

 

[catmum]

Thanks for your reply. I use the Feliway when I am away. I have used the Spirit Essences and not sure if they help Mummer. Hard to prove. I did think very effective for a tempory "guest". I  had a semi feral stray in a cage for a month or so and the spirit essences for foster cats seemed to help her a lot. Was able to socialize her and find home for her. Mummer is quite fiesty and has anger management problems esp with my other 2 cats who she hisses/ growls at under the door. I have tried many many  strategies to introduce them and she just hates other cats. If an outside cat comes near the door she launches herself growling yowling at the door in response. She used to chase other cats away when she was outside and a son of hers is just the same. One thing I do know is she is obsessed with any dry food like people with junk food and will always prefer it. I only started giving her dry recently after transisioning her to all wet canned food, to assist the gut bacteria and it has made her regular formed poop no diarrhea. The wet canned food didn't have enough "waste,fiber" and the dry food solved that. She likes the wet food but if there is dry will eat that first and ignore wet. Also the dry food seems to "hold" her longer and she needs to eat more often when wet is all there is. She gets about 1/3 cup limited ingredient rabbit. Its hard not to give them what they want esp when you are worried and they aren't eating. She has also had accupuncture for her infammation/stress issues. Hard to say if it helped. Her vet thought it did and said she could tell the difference. Would use for acute problems but pricey for everyday maintenence issues. Am witholding probiotics  as a trial to see if needed. Makes me nervous but I need to determine if necessary. Keeping my fingers crossed. Don't really want an upset diarrhea bout but if not necessary one thing less for caretakers to deal with in Jan & Feb.When she is feeling better she is less irritable. Improved on wet food in that regard.  I too hate to see that hunched up posture! Thanks & good luck

 

[ldg]

GH, the behavior you describe is exactly how Lazlo behaves when he's nauseous. He's hungry, but VERY sensitive to smell. I often go through a number of toppers before he'll dig in. And I don't change or clean or switch the food, I just keep layering different toppers on there. I just keep going until I hit one that smells right. The current favorite is S&C freeze dried rabbit (for dogs) - but even that isn't a given.

I agree with Denice, I seriously doubt the cooked rabbit is responsible for this. Since he seemed to love it, I would offer him some more rather than the canned rabbit.

And if not using the probiotic caused soft stool, I wouldn't stop it. It's not that I think the probiotics are causing large poop volume. It's just that the bulk of stool is bacteria, short chain fatty acids, and - well, here, the reason I included the link:

Poop is not leftover food. By definition, food is what feeds the cat herself and food, by definition is digestible and absorbable. The components of the diet that are not digestible are considered dietary fiber and move on into the bowel to become incorporated into the stool. That would include bound phosphorus if the cat is on a phosphorus binder.

Half or more of the dry weight of stool can be gut bacteria, zillions of them. They belong there. The remainder of the stool consists of short-chain fatty acids (SCFAs, the fermentation by-products of the gut bacteria), some bile salts/acids that were not recirculated, shed gut wall cells from that high cellular turnover, mucous from the gut wall (sometimes visible), and anything from the diet that was nondigestible/nonabsorbable/nonfermentable.

As you'd changed nothing in the diet when the poop volume changed, the amount of fiber hasn't changed. So I was wondering if it was related to the bacteria balance in his gut. It may be - but as he has soft stool when you stop the probiotics, it seems that maybe stress or something is causing immune system fluctuations that are enabling the not-healthy gut bacteria to proliferate. Maybe he needs a higher dose of probiotics to inhibit reproduction (?) of the unhealthy bacteria. :dk: Beyond my knowledge, just speculating based on what we know what poop is made of.

 

[ldg]

...I wasn't going to mention this because you're a research-a-holic, ( I mean that in the best possible of ways! ) and there just isn't any definitive information to indicate this is safe for cats. But maybe discuss it with the holistic vet?

A few weeks ago Lazlo had a bought of coughing up hairballs every few days. This is very unusual now that the cat are on egg yolks and egg yolk lecithin. So I decided to try food grade diatomaceous earth. I thought it might help him digest the hair.

Anecdotally, in humans it seems to help many people with GI problems, including IBD.

So I started adding 1/2 teaspoon to his food, to which I added water as it is a "water sucker upper" for lack of a better term. Not only did it stop the hairball problem, his stool became bulky and stinky for a few days. BUT he stopped being fussy about eating. He has eaten every meal, start-to-finish, no toppers. His energy level is through the roof.

I chatted about this with Carolina. Our thinking is that it acted as a colon cleanse (it's often recommended for not just parasites, but unhealthy bacteria - and it's recommended that probiotics be used with it, as it "scrubs" the intestines and colon clean).

It is primarily silica with magnesium, some calcium, and trace minerals. It should not be used in cats (or people) prone to kidney stones, with kidney disease, or prone to oxalates. Certainly not long term. And I'm quite clear I do not want to use this all the time. I kept him on it for two weeks. Most people use it once a week every month. I'm thinking I may use it every three days (at one meal a day). Since it seemed to benefit him so much, I'll probably use it on all the cats, one week a month.

If you want links to information, I'm happy to provide them. But I know you work very methodically, and right now you're introducing the cooked, and probably don't want to consider anything else, and I know digestive enzymes are likely the next potential trial. But just wanted to put this out there. It sounds like Sebastian may benefit from a colon cleanse, and this sure appears to have done that with excellent results.

 

[goholistic]

Thanks @LDG.  Bummer...I was hoping it wasn't nausea. 

   I did forget to mention something. I also gave Boo some of the cooked rabbit last night and he, too, didn't finish his breakfast this morning. He usually waits around for something better to come along, but proceeded to go upstairs to bed after eating 3/4 of his wet food. Sorry I didn't mention this. This was another reason I thought maybe it was the cooked rabbit. I think I'll need to step back and give them a smaller amount tonight, which will literally be like two nuggets. 

Your link makes me want to get a sample of his poo under a microscope. If I knew what was making up so much of his stool, perhaps I could address the issue accordingly. Right now I'm only incorporating the probiotic (17.5 billion CFU) into the night routine...2-3 hours after he gets the metro. I can't accommodate this in the mornings unless I give him the probiotic with his meal, but then the metro will just wipe it out. I could increase the night amount to the full 35 billion, which is one whole capsule, but I thought maybe that was too much. It does seem like he's got some imbalances going on, and maybe the digestive enzymes will help.

Please don't ever feel you shouldn't mention something because I might over-analyze it. Chances are...I will.  

  But you're right...there aren't many resources out there about using DE internally for pets. Sometimes when I can't find any direct case studies, I research how the product works as intended. For example, I researched how food grade DE kills fleas. When I found my answer, yes it does make me nervous to use something like this internally for cats, although I understand the affect on parasites is much different than on mammals. I'm glad it worked for Lazlo and will definitely look further into it. Thank you!

But now that you mention colon cleanse, perhaps another option would be to try Luxolite by Vitality Science. It works in much the same way, but Luxolite is a clay. I recently used this on Caesar because of his fluctuating tummy upsets and appetite. He seemed to feel better and eat more when he was getting the Luxolite, and he's been fine since.

I'll see how Sebastian does tonight and tomorrow morning. I'm back at work this week, so I won't be able to observe him as closely as I've been. 

 

[raintyger]

FYI, when I was treating Poppy for constipation, probiotics were supposed to help. I think the theory was something like they created the right pH environment to stimulant the bowel.

With Sebastian's problems it seems like digestive enzymes would help. Wonder why the vet isn't that enthusiastic about it?

 

[goholistic]

 
FYI, when I was treating Poppy for constipation, probiotics were supposed to help. I think the theory was something like they created the right pH environment to stimulant the bowel.

With Sebastian's problems it seems like digestive enzymes would help. Wonder why the vet isn't that enthusiastic about it?

I do think probiotics help all the way around with both constipation and diarrhea. I don't know why the vet isn't enthusiastic about it. I don't think she would mind one way or the other, but it seems her stance is that they don't need a whole lot of supplements if being fed the right diet.

With much encouragement, I was able to get Sebastian to eat 1/3 can of the RC rabbit tonight. This is still less than what he normally eats. The first 1/4 was from the can I used this morning and he walked away from it numerous times. An hour or so later, I took a little more from a new, freshly opened can, and he ate that much more enthusiastically. Maybe the first can was a bad can? Or maybe he had a 24-hour "bug" that finally lifted. Admittedly, I'm holding off on the cooked rabbit. Don't worry...I'm not giving up on it! I just want to wait a day or two and get him back to "normal" and I'll try again. If he reacts the same way again, then it seems I can assume the cooked rabbit is upsetting him in some way....no?