Sebastian is Back at the Vet...Suspected Pancreatitis Again :(

[roxie]

Just checking on Sebastian. Hope you, Sebastian and your other kitties have a Happy Thanksgiving!

 

[lillydsh]

The pancreatic gland is located in the abdomen of the cat. There are several contributing factors that can cause pancreatitis. A cat with pancreatitis will stop eating. The best test to determine pancreatitis is radiography. Sebastian needs to be on a low-fat diet.

 

[ldg]

Lilly, there's 13 pages in this thread, I suspect you haven't read them. The OP has been exploring all potential co-complications, has done a volume of research on not just pancreatitis, but every other possibility, has had ultrasounds and Spec fPLI done. Sebastian may benefit from a low-fat diet, but that would be if he has a sensitivity to fat due to the possibility he has IBD. Fat in the diet of cats may or may not have a role in pancreatitis: some cat do better with low fat if they have pancreatitis; many don't. That's more a problem with dogs and pancreatitis.

This is probably the best summary article on pancreatitis, and it has been posted in this thread (probably more than once. :lol3: )

http://www.idexx.com/pubwebresource...pec-fpl-treatment-for-feline-pancreatitis.pdf

Similar: http://www.idexx.com/pubwebresource...ng-pancreatitis-and-concurrent-conditions.pdf


:cross: Hope all went well yesterday; hope Sebastian is OK and didn't stress too much, and I hope you loved the vet!

 

[maureen brad]

Alyseal, Your post really touched me. I just wanted to wish your cat a recovery. I went through this last year with my cat Ziggy.Unfortuately, I had a vet who basically told me nothing just gave him antibiotic and taught me how to do sub Q fluids...by the time I began to doubt the vet and ploughed into research I was far behind ...Keep trying...you sound far smarter than I was at the time. I have to say that most vets know little about feline nutrition. Some newer vets do but traditionally vets learn very little about it in school. That is changing but still to many vets know only what Hills Science diet or Royal Canin want them to know in order to sell their foods.Will be thinking of you and everyone else on this thread...I hope your Thanksgiving is a happy one.

 

[goholistic]

Thank you, everyone, for the well wishes!  

  And thank you, @LDG, for pointing out that this is a very long thread filled with A LOT of information. 

For those of you just tuning in to this thread, I understand it might not be feasible to read through 380+ posts. But please feel free to ASK me if there's something you want to know or if there's something I have or have not tried in my journey with Sebastian and his pancreatitis/IBD. It's easy to make assumptions and give poor advice (as in not good for Sebastian) without knowing all the details - his history, his sensitivities, etc. You may find that a lot has already been covered, between my own extensive research and now having worked with a traditional vet, a specialist, and two holistic vets. If you have, or plan to, read through this entire thread, I give you many kudos for doing so! 

Okay, so on to the update...

On Tuesday morning, we made the trip to the local holistic vet, but it was still a 30 minute drive. The drive stressed Sebastian out.  

  They took us right away when we got there, and I let him roam around the exam room. The woman doc said he is such a beautiful boy. 

  I warned her that he might have to pee, so she asked her assistant to go grab a litter pan. As soon as we set it down, he went over and took a nice long pee in front of us and even covered it. He's such a good boy!  

  Anyway, we talked at length about his history and what we've been through these past several months. She wanted to know all kinds of little details that I was ready to skip over, so she was very thorough in that respect. I really like her as a person and as a vet. When all was said and done, the only recommendation she made was his diet and feels he needs to be on a raw diet. She also did say that using the RO water is great, and that's what she uses for her pets. She's okay with the supplements I've currently giving him, but when I presented her with other "remedies" that I've researched, she really didn't feel they were necessary and that with the right diet, he shouldn't need all kinds of "add-ons." She recommended the Bravo Basic Formula Rabbit. I asked her if it was balanced, and the only thing she said I could add are rabbit organs. I'm not sure if that makes it balanced.

  I also asked about the bone being a problem, and she said no. Anyway, I think I'll sit on this for now. She did not push for the homeopathy consultation at this point, and feels I should concentrate on his diet. She didn't seem too concerned about Sebastian being on the prednisolone and Cerenia, but would like to see him weened off the Pepcid and metronidazole. 

I have to say, I am getting varying opinions on what to feed Sebastian. I've got the traditional vet who is anti-raw, this holistic vet who is pro-raw (but with a different take on it than what I get here on TCS), and other sources that say a home cooked diet might work best. I did get my order of ground rabbit from Hare Today, which is now resting comfortably in my freezer. 

  But I am also going to sit on this until after the Thanksgiving holiday. Sebastian was so stressed from the trip to this vet that he was panting on the way home.  

  I had to open all the windows in the car (it was pouring rain) so that he could get some air. He's still eating good and all, but you know how you can just tell when one of your kitties is a little off. I know you all know what I mean. So, I'm a little on edge and have been babying him and trying not to stress him out anymore. I won't even run the vacuum because he HATES the vacuum. I just need to make sure he's alright and not on the verge of another flare before I give him something new. I gave him sub-q fluids today and that seemed to help perk him up for dinner.  I also finally received my order of flower essences, so they should help, too.

So, really, in summary....nothing has changed at this point. 

OMG...I almost forgot the really good news! Sebastian has gained almost a pound in less than a month! He went from 11.12 to 12.02 lbs. 

 

[carolina]

Awesome that you got him there!
Quick question as I need to feed my crew - what surprises you that your conventional vet is anti-raw? Most - the vast - vaaaaaaaast majority are, and there is really no surprise on that :dk:
The diet they know/learn, especially when an illness such as IBD comes around, is a prescription diet - that is typically what you see in conventional vets. Unfortunate? Yes. Reality? Yes.

You know I will agree with this holistic vet.... And I think you just might :cross: surprise yourself with getting to a point where you might not need any medication :cross:.
Best thing is - now you have a vet you like to guide you through it.
By the way - if you have a bit of time to read through another link
http://www.catnutrition.org/ibd.html

Gotta feed my crew now!! Hope Sebastian gets in the mends chop chop
EDIT: http://www.catnutrition.org/testimonials.html

 

[jcat]

I have to say, I am getting varying opinions on what to feed Sebastian. I've got the traditional vet who is anti-raw, this holistic vet who is pro-raw (but with a different take on it than what I get here on TCS), and other sources that say a home cooked diet might work best.

That's confusing, but nobody, including a vet, can really know what will work for Sebastian in advance. IBD can have so many causes (and effects), and sometimes there are other complications. The raw rabbit might help, but you won't know till you try it. If it doesn't, you can always move on to cooked rabbit (or vice-versa). I really feel for you (and him), having to go through this whole trial-and-error process myself and knowing what's working right now might not during the next flare.

Lots of that you find the "magic formula" that works for him!

 

[hublebuble4]

Hugs to Sebastian and to you.

Hope all will end well.

/Peter with Elsa Gloria and Benjamin Franklin

 

[peaches08]

Do you mean that the holistic vet is different about raw as far as holding off on add-ons? I can understand that. You won't know what actually worked if you do everything all at once.

 

[maewkaew]

 Best wishes to Sebastian.  Good to hear his weight has come up.    I hope the rabbit will be helpful.  

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

Do you mean that the holistic vet is different about raw as far as holding off on add-ons? I can understand that. You won't know what actually worked if you do everything all at once.

OR, about not necessarily adding LIVER?  As I read it, the Bravo basic rabbit formula does not contain any of it!  (only one of their basic formulas does, and that is Ostrich..isn't that odd

)  Anyway, I can understand about not adding in additional supplements, but I've got to wonder about the liver...that's necessary over long term.  Maybe she said Basics because they don't have any vegies in them,and their Balance has them

.  But she did say you COULD add organs, so I definitely would.  Did you tell her about your Hare Today rabbit...she just may not be familiar with it, since it's not a commercial brand

What great news that he actually gained a pound

 

[peaches08]

OR, about not necessarily adding LIVER?  As I read it, the Bravo basic rabbit formula does not contain any of it!  (only one of their basic formulas does, and that is Ostrich..isn't that odd :dk: )  Anyway, I can understand about not adding in additional supplements, but I've got to wonder about the liver...that's necessary over long term.  Maybe she said Basics because they don't have any vegies in them,and their Balance has them .  But she did say you COULD add organs, so I definitely would.  Did you tell her about your Hare Today rabbit...she just may not be familiar with it, since it's not a commercial brand

What great news that he actually gained a pound

What I meant was medication cocktails, prescription or OTC. I absolutely encourage a balanced diet, period. Sometimes a clean diet is all that was needed. And sometimes more is still needed either Rx or OTC. But if we do everything all at once, it gets hard to determine what worked and what didn't.

 

[ldg]

I am so glad you liked the new vet! I love that she was so thorough.

I'm curious, with the same question as Sally. Did you discuss the Hare Today with her? It's just whole ground rabbit. Or is her point that she wants only meat and bone for a little while? Kind of like when we recommend to people with kittens/cats with diarrhea they put them on just boiled chicken for up to a week?

Given she said you "can" add rabbit organs... I'd go with the HT, personally. :dk:

I'm sorry it was so stressful for him to get there. That does make it kind of a challenge for working longer term with this vet. But phone consults are an option now, yes? :cross:

and hope everyone's enjoying a happy Thanksgiving! (And hope Sebastian's feeling better!) :rub:

 

[goholistic]

::deep breath::  Inhale....exhale....inhale....exhale. I'm having a little bit of anxiety. Sebastian is walking away from his food before finishing - a classic sign for him that he is having, or is about to have, a flare. 

  I just knew this would happen. I knew the stress of that drive would do something to him. 

  I need to see what I can do. Perhaps daily fluids, but less ml. I'll call the vet in the morning and ask about adjusting any of the meds.

Carolina, I'm not surprised that the traditional vet is anti-raw. It's just another perspective being thrown my way.

You're all correct, actually. The holistic vet is:

a) Recommending a very basic raw diet...so basic, in fact, that I'm concerned it might not be balanced. If I hadn't asked if the Bravo Basic Rabbit was balanced, I don't know that she would have mentioned the organs. It was all very vague, actually. If a vet is going to recommend a raw diet, I think that they would be very concerned about it being balanced and provide more detail or some kind of brochure or Feeding Raw 101 information sheet to take home. I told her I bought boneless ground rabbit and organs from Hare Today and, yes, she has heard of them. But she insisted that I needed the bone in there. I asked if I could just supplement with Alnutrin or eggshell. She never heard of Alnutrin, and didn't comment on the eggshell, but said that bone provides more than just calcium.  

  She did say that I could call her anytime if I have any issues or questions, but I'm starting to wonder just how versed she is in feeding raw.

b) Confident that Sebastian doesn't need extra supplements added to his diet....not now and not later. She never mentioned digestive enzymes or anything. I wanted to ask, but we started to run out of time and she had another client waiting.

I'm sorry if I didn't answer all your questions. I'm a little distracted and need to go check on Bastie and warm up the fluid bag. 

  You'd think I'd be used to his flares by now, but I still hate it and I still get sick to my stomach when I fear one is coming.

Thanks to you all. 

 

[ldg]

Aw Sebastian, not another flare...

(Eggshell doesn't have the same composition as bone, but it does have magnesium, other trace minerals, and lowers the phosphorus load).

 

[carolina]

Oh no.... I hope this is not a flare
You are more than right in being concerned about a balanced diet. I can't respond why she didn't comment on that :dk:
Here in my home I have one confirmed case of IBD, and one suspect case. The confirmed is Bugsy, of course. The suspect is Lucky. She used to throw up a lot, and still does with some meats.
I balanced their foods for a long time with eggshells and they did great on it. Recently I decided to balance it with Alnutrin with Calcium (eggshells), as it has some vitamins and minerals I thought they were lacking in their diet. They are all doing great as well. On both cases, you do need to add organs.
Only two of my four cats can deal with fresh organs, so I give them freeze-dried - they love it and digest well.
I have tried call of the wild, but Bugsy didn't handle well.
IMHO, if you keep the diet as basic as possible, but balanced, meaning: meat, Bone (or a Calcium alternative), and organs, you are good to go. IMHO it will stop being a basic, clean diet when you add veggies in it- there are some commercial diets that are not veggies - free, nature's variety is one example.
Meats I recommend, that are easy to digest, are rabbit, chicken, turkey, hearts.... For now I would stay away from dark meats-when you are ready to introduce them, introduce it very slowly.
Don't stop yourself from giving a meat because you think "he is allergic". That might not be the case with raw. Bugsy had violent diarrhea with chicken, at the slightest amount, in any form..... He loves and does great with raw chicken - I just give him cage free chicken and he is good.
I hope you give it a try, and I hope it works for you as it has for many....
As just said, you will only know if you try.... And that's the bottom line, I think.
IBD is a pain.... But there is a time when you try something and it works. More often than not, it comes down to diet.
I really hope he gets well in no time....
And remember, you still have a bunch of us who feed raw, some with similar problems as you.... We can help you out with your diet questions.... Just ask

 

[denice]

How is he doing today?  I hope he was just having an off day rather than getting sick again.

 

[ldg]

The last time this happened it didn't turn into a flare. I hope that's the case this time!!! More !!!

 

[raintyger]

 
::deep breath::  Inhale....exhale....inhale....exhale. I'm having a little bit of anxiety. Sebastian is walking away from his food before finishing - a classic sign for him that he is having, or is about to have, a flare. 

  I just knew this would happen. I knew the stress of that drive would do something to him. 

  I need to see what I can do. Perhaps daily fluids, but less ml. I'll call the vet in the morning and ask about adjusting any of the meds.

Carolina, I'm not surprised that the traditional vet is anti-raw. It's just another perspective being thrown my way.

You're all correct, actually. The holistic vet is:

a) Recommending a very basic raw diet...so basic, in fact, that I'm concerned it might not be balanced. If I hadn't asked if the Bravo Basic Rabbit was balanced, I don't know that she would have mentioned the organs. It was all very vague, actually. If a vet is going to recommend a raw diet, I think that they would be very concerned about it being balanced and provide more detail or some kind of brochure or Feeding Raw 101 information sheet to take home. I told her I bought boneless ground rabbit and organs from Hare Today and, yes, she has heard of them. But she insisted that I needed the bone in there. I asked if I could just supplement with Alnutrin or eggshell. She never heard of Alnutrin, and didn't comment on the eggshell, but said that bone provides more than just calcium.  

  She did say that I could call her anytime if I have any issues or questions, but I'm starting to wonder just how versed she is in feeding raw.

b) Confident that Sebastian doesn't need extra supplements added to his diet....not now and not later. She never mentioned digestive enzymes or anything. I wanted to ask, but we started to run out of time and she had another client waiting.

I'm sorry if I didn't answer all your questions. I'm a little distracted and need to go check on Bastie and warm up the fluid bag. 

  You'd think I'd be used to his flares by now, but I still hate it and I still get sick to my stomach when I fear one is coming.

Thanks to you all. 

The first vet I went to after Poppy had a struvite advertised she knew about raw feeding. All she did was recommend I flash cook a chicken drumstick once or twice a week and give that out. She told me that if I wanted to feed 100% raw I should find recipes I was comfortable with (presumably off the internet) and come back to have Poppy's urine tested. What a disappointment. I believe the Bravo a lot of the line is unbalanced.

If I have more questions of the vet or my regular doctor, I don't care if I take up more time, I just go ahead and ask them. I just figure that my pet's health is more important. Selfish, yeah, but I figure I give in in other areas, so the important ones I don't compromise. Digestive enzymes are recommended when starting raw feeding, but Sebastian's other conditions complicates the equation.

I hope he's all right.

 

[goholistic]

I had given him fluids again the night he was walking away from his food. The next morning (this morning), Sebastian had a BM and then proceeded to vomit clear liquid in a few places. 

   I called the vet and was told our doctor won't be back in until next week, but they'll have another one of the doctors call me. Before I even got a chance to start making their breakfast, Sebastian had another BM. Perhaps he was just backed up and crampy?  

  I got a call and it was the our doctor (I swear she stays on call just for my cats  

  ). She said to up the Cerenia and continue with the fluids daily as long as they're being absorbed, and if he's still off by Saturday to up the pred just a little. The increased Cerenia really helped (or perhaps it was the double BM that helped).  

  But anyway, he ate some breakfast and he ate pretty good tonight. The doc said there's no doubt in her mind that the slightest thing could set him off, whether it be stress or constipation or whatever. So after realizing the Feliway diffusers were bone dry, I picked up some more of those today.

And, yes, for those looking at the time stamp, it is almost 4:00 a.m. I had a 4-hour nap today with the cats, which really threw off my sleep schedule! 

  It was supposed to be a 1-hour nap.