- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #21
Ok i will ask my vet tomorrow, maybe that is why he is still not showing signs of improvement. Clovamox can be given with convenia?
Thanks
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Nico-Wasting away, help
- Thread starter nicosasha
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Thanks
Convenia is not drug of choice for mouth infections. Clavamox kills some bugs that Convenia doesn't touch. Also, Clavamox does not suppress appetite as Convenia often does. Finally, if you dissolve a Calavamox pill in a little water, mix in a little goat milk or half and half (just a little) you can give it with a syringe and it doesnt taste bad. The veterinary liquid Clavamox tastes terrible. My advice is to opt for the pills and dissolve them and feed with the other stuff you are feeding him.
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- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #23
Thank you so much, i will ask tomorrow, is it one pill a day?
No, it's twice a day, every 12 hours.
I should also add, your cat being given Convenia should be put on probiotics immediately because Convenia kills all the intestinal flora and then digestive complications show up.
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In the 'cat community' Convenia is known as a drug with a lot of baggage.
It was approved and licensed for a narrow set of uses - skin infections from certain bacteria. BUT, because of its convenience (anything in that word sounding familiar to you?) of administration - no fuss, no muss - it has been widely prescribed for all sorts of infection in all kinds of places.
It is very effective for its licensed purpose and, in the vast majority of cats given it, has had only a small % of adverse reactions.
Still, if my cat or your cat had an adverse reaction, that would be very meaningful to us.
Many people have reported a less severe kind of reaction/result....as though the cat's energy level has been 'zapped', the cat becomes apathetic, no interest in anything, listless. Some wonder if the antibiotic is working at all or if the original problem is worsening. It seems as though the 'wind'/life has been knocked out of the cat. This kind of reaction is the most common "adverse" (if it can be called that) effect.
It's important that you take this info as a 'heads-up' and not as something that's going to/should upset/worry/concern you.....every bit of clear thinking you have will be needed over the next period whether/not Nico received the Convenia.
Generally speaking, it may be best for future reference that you put Convenia on your list of "No, thanks" feline meds. (on that list should also be all NSAIDs - yes, there are NSAIDs for cats!)
There's a fairly comprehensive coverage of Convenia on a well-respected holistic Veterinarian's website (she isn't impressed) here: Convenia: Worth the Risk - Lisa A Pierson DVM You may well see some of the more common side effects, so I'd suggest you be prepared to continue your supportive care.
There's also a thread here where people have posted some very severe reactions - again, these will represent a very small number/percentge of Convenia recipients: Convenia side effects?
There's another reason for saying NO to Convenia:
Hope that helps.
It was approved and licensed for a narrow set of uses - skin infections from certain bacteria. BUT, because of its convenience (anything in that word sounding familiar to you?) of administration - no fuss, no muss - it has been widely prescribed for all sorts of infection in all kinds of places.
It is very effective for its licensed purpose and, in the vast majority of cats given it, has had only a small % of adverse reactions.
Still, if my cat or your cat had an adverse reaction, that would be very meaningful to us.
Many people have reported a less severe kind of reaction/result....as though the cat's energy level has been 'zapped', the cat becomes apathetic, no interest in anything, listless. Some wonder if the antibiotic is working at all or if the original problem is worsening. It seems as though the 'wind'/life has been knocked out of the cat. This kind of reaction is the most common "adverse" (if it can be called that) effect.
It's important that you take this info as a 'heads-up' and not as something that's going to/should upset/worry/concern you.....every bit of clear thinking you have will be needed over the next period whether/not Nico received the Convenia.
Generally speaking, it may be best for future reference that you put Convenia on your list of "No, thanks" feline meds. (on that list should also be all NSAIDs - yes, there are NSAIDs for cats!)
There's a fairly comprehensive coverage of Convenia on a well-respected holistic Veterinarian's website (she isn't impressed) here: Convenia: Worth the Risk - Lisa A Pierson DVM You may well see some of the more common side effects, so I'd suggest you be prepared to continue your supportive care.
There's also a thread here where people have posted some very severe reactions - again, these will represent a very small number/percentge of Convenia recipients: Convenia side effects?
There's another reason for saying NO to Convenia:
Cats are particularly sensitive to just about anything that's injected through their skin. Some cats develop cancers at the site of previous injections and often this occurs many years after the injections. The injections most often implicated are vaccines (some types more frequently than others), and long-acting antibiotics. (Dr. Pierson's site has another article "Vaccines" which covers this very well - another must-read for you.)
Hope that helps.
One thing that helps avert bad reactions in the intestines is to put the cat on probiotics immediately. Convenia can kill off all the intestinal bacteria and then the cat cannot digest properly, so do get a cat probiotic, available at most pet stores. Try to find one with at least 3 microorganisms in it. If they are chews, just dissolve them in water and mix in with everything else you are feeding.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #27
Thank you White shadow, he is very wobbly now and cannot walk straight, not sure if he is getting worse or side effect if one of the medications. It is hard to watch. He kind of slides along the walls.I gave him some more food.
My vet opens at 1:30 in the afternoon will ask about clovomax.
Red top rescue, thanks, any probiotic recommendations?
Funny how these expensive and educated specialists fail to provide basic info.
My vet opens at 1:30 in the afternoon will ask about clovomax.
Red top rescue, thanks, any probiotic recommendations?
Funny how these expensive and educated specialists fail to provide basic info.
It might well be the buprenorphine that's doing this. Sedation/drowsiness are principal side effects.
If he were here, he would not have 'the run of the house'. I'd have him isolated in a quiet dark room with his personal "stuff" and all the necessary amenities. And, inside there, he'd also have a place to "hide" out.
When cats don't feel well, they also feel vulnerable - and, that's stressful....and, stress is itself unhealthy for cats. Healing comes faster in the absence of stress.
(I hope they explained that the bup only "works" if it's absorbed within the mouth.....it isn't meant to be swallowed)
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #29
Thank you white shadow.
1. I let sasha out and isolated him, he actually seems to like it.
2. Fed 2 tsps of broth, how much do you recommend and how often. The ER vet told me nothing about syringe feeding.
3. Bup yes they gave me syringes, but how do i know if i should give, it says give as needed. I cant figure out if he is pain.
He is becoming more unsteady on his legs, he is alert though,just cannot walk. And he was on bup on thu at the local vet and was walking fine.
He is having a hard time even lifting his head, he moved to the water bowl, slumped over it, dunked his head and had a few sips, which is great, but definitely he seems worse than thu.
How do I assess his quality of life?
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #30
I am not sure i can do this, it breaks my heart. I was hoping the antibiotic for dental and two days thu/fri of supportive care for pancreatitis should be working by now. He has no tumors, so i refused hospitalization, so why is he not responding??
He is getting worse.
He has not eaten on his own or pooped since wed. I am sure his liver must be a mess.
My poor cat, i cant stop crying, i really wish i had paid more attention.
Should i hospitalize,i have already spent 400 sat +150 thu + 850 at ER yest, we live in DC area, it is expensive, each day will cost 1.5k atleast for each day. Not sure how many days.
Will he ever fully recover,or am i prolonging his suffering? On the other hand if we euthanize him, what if he might have recovered if he was left alone?
He is getting worse.
He has not eaten on his own or pooped since wed. I am sure his liver must be a mess.
My poor cat, i cant stop crying, i really wish i had paid more attention.
Should i hospitalize,i have already spent 400 sat +150 thu + 850 at ER yest, we live in DC area, it is expensive, each day will cost 1.5k atleast for each day. Not sure how many days.
Will he ever fully recover,or am i prolonging his suffering? On the other hand if we euthanize him, what if he might have recovered if he was left alone?
Sorry you are dealing with this! Here is something I use for cats who are very ill and won't eat. It may or may not help in your situation. The article was written by a well known and respected Persian breeder. While she suggests tube feeding (a scary thing for me since I have never had success with it )I syringe the broth into the cat instead.
."MEAT CONCENTRATE - HIGH NUTRITION LIFESAVER... by Janice Reichle Very often, when a cat or kitten is sick, the first symptom is loss of appetite. And, according to a medical technician employed in a large, well-known animal hospital, more cats die of malnutrition/starvation during illness than from the illness itself, usually an upper respiratory infection. Even in mild URI, cats quit eating simply because they can not smell the food and what they can not smell, they will not eat. At one time or another we have all had to deal with a situation in which we could not get a cat/kitten to eat no matter what we tried. If the invalid will lick baby food off of your finger - fine - but if that does not work, what will? You have probably tried "a good, smelly cat food - tuna" on the advice of your veterinarian. For some reason veterinarians seem to think that no cat can resist fish no matter how sick he may be. After failing with baby food and fish, you will resort to force feeding. If a cat really does not want to eat, even spooning baby food in that tightly clamped jaw will not work. You may have tried force-feeding with chunks of beef or bits of cut-up chicken heart. If the patient has a sore throat, that will be next to impossible. And, when a cat is not well, the digestive system is not working well and so the chunks of meat may be vomited, undigested, as long as 24 hours after feeding. The other disadvantage to you in forced feeding is that no matter how sick and lethargic it may be, the invalid will seem to have super strength when it comes to fighting and at the very least you will have fingers full of tooth marks.
Many people depend on the high-calory supplements in a tube, sold under various trade names. The same technician, referred to previously, told me these are "empty calories" and will not properly nourish animals in illness. They are a supplement - nothing more. As she has been long involved with one of the largest and most famous animal medical centers in the country, I treat her word as "gospel".
For a long time I have been a proponent of tube-feeding in supplementing large litters of kittens, raising babies from mothers with no milk or nourishing sick animals, etc. Since the tube must be small enough in diameter to to insert in either a tiny throat, a sore throat or a violently protesting cat, the choice of what to feed is small. Even diluted baby meat will clog the openings of the tube and a milk substitute, depending on the illness involved, may cause diarrhea. I have had very good luck with something my mother used when she was breeding dogs many years ago. It is simple to make and store to keep readily available: Concentrated beef broth. This is NOT the canned broth purchased in the super market nor is it made by boiling a quanity of meat as with soup. It can be frozen and stored for long periods and the recipe is simple - buy LEAN beef and cut it into cubes no more than an inch in size. Place them in a large jam or mayonaisse jar or something similar without a cardboard liner in the top; do not tightly pack cubes in the jar. Screw the top on loosely; not as tightly as you would for storage. Put the jar in a pan of water and try to keep the level of water approximately the height of the meat in the jar. Bring the water to a low boil or simmer and eventually you will see broth in the jar; pour it off and continue the process (which may take two to three hours) after loosening the meat a bit. Keep doing this until no more broth can be poured off. I prefer to pour it through a strainer. What you have left is a dry looking, useless meat (to be thrown away) and the concentrated broth. As you can see, there will be a great deal of nourishment in a very small quantity. After the broth cools, you can skim off any accumulated fat on the top. Depending on the illness of the cat, you may or may not want any fat left. A little is fine if diarrhea is not a problem. Because you need so little, you may be able to give it by dropper in the side of the mouth; only a few droppersful at a time need be given. I am always reluctant to use a dropper if a cat is not co-operative so I prefer to tube-feed. A cat can be maintained this way for long periods of time. Some years ago, a cat of mine was "drugged" (I use that word advisedly because the poisoning attempt was not successful) at a show. He was maintained for three weeks with the concentrated broth and occasionally, some Esbilac. Another advantage of the broth is that they do like the taste and frequently, when they begin to eat on their own, it is the broth they choose.
You may say that this is fine for nourishment during illness, but what about that all-important fluid intake? Sick animals are usually as unwilling to drink as they are to eat. It is much easier to give fluids sub-cutaneously in the quanities needed than it is to force fluids by mouth. If you have a good working relationship with your veterinarian, he will be willing to tell you how much fluid to give and show you how to give it. Cats usually do not object to fluid therapy IF you warm the container of fluid before use.
."MEAT CONCENTRATE - HIGH NUTRITION LIFESAVER... by Janice Reichle Very often, when a cat or kitten is sick, the first symptom is loss of appetite. And, according to a medical technician employed in a large, well-known animal hospital, more cats die of malnutrition/starvation during illness than from the illness itself, usually an upper respiratory infection. Even in mild URI, cats quit eating simply because they can not smell the food and what they can not smell, they will not eat. At one time or another we have all had to deal with a situation in which we could not get a cat/kitten to eat no matter what we tried. If the invalid will lick baby food off of your finger - fine - but if that does not work, what will? You have probably tried "a good, smelly cat food - tuna" on the advice of your veterinarian. For some reason veterinarians seem to think that no cat can resist fish no matter how sick he may be. After failing with baby food and fish, you will resort to force feeding. If a cat really does not want to eat, even spooning baby food in that tightly clamped jaw will not work. You may have tried force-feeding with chunks of beef or bits of cut-up chicken heart. If the patient has a sore throat, that will be next to impossible. And, when a cat is not well, the digestive system is not working well and so the chunks of meat may be vomited, undigested, as long as 24 hours after feeding. The other disadvantage to you in forced feeding is that no matter how sick and lethargic it may be, the invalid will seem to have super strength when it comes to fighting and at the very least you will have fingers full of tooth marks.
Many people depend on the high-calory supplements in a tube, sold under various trade names. The same technician, referred to previously, told me these are "empty calories" and will not properly nourish animals in illness. They are a supplement - nothing more. As she has been long involved with one of the largest and most famous animal medical centers in the country, I treat her word as "gospel".
For a long time I have been a proponent of tube-feeding in supplementing large litters of kittens, raising babies from mothers with no milk or nourishing sick animals, etc. Since the tube must be small enough in diameter to to insert in either a tiny throat, a sore throat or a violently protesting cat, the choice of what to feed is small. Even diluted baby meat will clog the openings of the tube and a milk substitute, depending on the illness involved, may cause diarrhea. I have had very good luck with something my mother used when she was breeding dogs many years ago. It is simple to make and store to keep readily available: Concentrated beef broth. This is NOT the canned broth purchased in the super market nor is it made by boiling a quanity of meat as with soup. It can be frozen and stored for long periods and the recipe is simple - buy LEAN beef and cut it into cubes no more than an inch in size. Place them in a large jam or mayonaisse jar or something similar without a cardboard liner in the top; do not tightly pack cubes in the jar. Screw the top on loosely; not as tightly as you would for storage. Put the jar in a pan of water and try to keep the level of water approximately the height of the meat in the jar. Bring the water to a low boil or simmer and eventually you will see broth in the jar; pour it off and continue the process (which may take two to three hours) after loosening the meat a bit. Keep doing this until no more broth can be poured off. I prefer to pour it through a strainer. What you have left is a dry looking, useless meat (to be thrown away) and the concentrated broth. As you can see, there will be a great deal of nourishment in a very small quantity. After the broth cools, you can skim off any accumulated fat on the top. Depending on the illness of the cat, you may or may not want any fat left. A little is fine if diarrhea is not a problem. Because you need so little, you may be able to give it by dropper in the side of the mouth; only a few droppersful at a time need be given. I am always reluctant to use a dropper if a cat is not co-operative so I prefer to tube-feed. A cat can be maintained this way for long periods of time. Some years ago, a cat of mine was "drugged" (I use that word advisedly because the poisoning attempt was not successful) at a show. He was maintained for three weeks with the concentrated broth and occasionally, some Esbilac. Another advantage of the broth is that they do like the taste and frequently, when they begin to eat on their own, it is the broth they choose.
You may say that this is fine for nourishment during illness, but what about that all-important fluid intake? Sick animals are usually as unwilling to drink as they are to eat. It is much easier to give fluids sub-cutaneously in the quanities needed than it is to force fluids by mouth. If you have a good working relationship with your veterinarian, he will be willing to tell you how much fluid to give and show you how to give it. Cats usually do not object to fluid therapy IF you warm the container of fluid before use.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #32
Thank you
Nico has only 12 breaths per minute now, what to do?
Nico has only 12 breaths per minute now, what to do?
At the very least, I'd have him seen and evaluated.
I gave you that information on Convenia so that you would be aware of some typical reactions to the drug.....I don't want to give you misleading information, but some of what he is displaying is similar to other Convenia reactions....only an exam by a competent Vet can determine that, though.
He needs that you keep a 'clear head'.....deal with the symptoms you're seeing and don't "go off in all directions with talk of losing him etc etc.....he needs your focus, clear-thinking and supportive care, not emotional responses.
Do you remember that other cats with Convenia have also 'seemed to worsen'.....??
One more thing: he needs more than this "broth"......the Hill's critical care food will ensure his nutrition needs are met.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #34
Thanks white shadow, I am talking to my primary vet to see what she can do today. So far, she advises letting him go as organs are shutting down. She says he wont survive anesthesia for a feeding tube.
I will ask her if she can do the exam and give me a/d, they open only at 1.
I will ask her if she can do the exam and give me a/d, they open only at 1.
try feeding him liver, chicken or beef cooked or raw. The poor guy needs to get something in him
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #36
Thanks zed, just got off phone with vet, she agrees convenia might have effects on some cats, it will take 2-3 days to wear off, so we can watch till monday
She said feeding tube is not in his best interests.
Meanwhile the plan is to feed him a 2.5 oz jar of baby food meats puree, he seems to be liking the broth and is trying to move, (and keeps collapsing heartbreakingly in the litter box) so hoping he will take baby food thru syringe. That should be 50% of his calories equivalent of a can, I askedher about a/d, she said the purees are fine.
If things go downhill during the weekend, we take him to ER, most likely to be put to sleep, hopefully it wont come to that.
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Oh no. :-( I feel bad for you and the little one . you're doing a great job with this. I pray that everything will be OK. I'm praying here!
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- #38
Thanks mukkia, i hope nico is not giving me false hopes. He limped into litter box, peed, and then collapsed, i picked him out, held his belly and he walked few steps.
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Awe, Nico is fighting. He is strong. If it helps you to feel better, lay by him, pet him, talk to him and keep trying to get him to eat. That's what I do with Mukkia.
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Sorry for the typo . :-/
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