Moistening Dry Food?

[sevenwonders]

I was just reading some of the earlier posts in this thread that I skipped the first time...

Back on the subject of adding water to dry food,

again, if you only moisten the amount that they will eat in a few minutes,

that basically eliminates the bacteria and mold concerns.

Also, the brand of kibble makes a big difference.

Despite their similar nutrition profiles, (thanks again Laurie!)

Evolve absorbs water at least twice as fast as California Natural Chicken & Brown Rice.

In warm water, the Evolve will absorb all of the water in about 4 to 5 minutes.

In that same amount of time, the CN absorbs only about half of the water.

As you might expect, the Grain Free foods I tried (Evo and Blue WIlderness)
absorb almost no water in that same amount of time.

But, when they aren't in the mood for watery kibble,

I just add about a half teaspoon * of Brewer's Yeast or powdered Spirulina or Bonito Flakes

(* shared by 8 Kitties, not per cat)

and the problem is solved. They drink all of the water and eat the kibble.  

 

[socksy]

Mould spores can be killed by heat.  Which species are living on the cat food and what their temperature tolerance is, I don't know.  

- Do you think I could reduce/eliminate the bacteria/mold count by either baking the kibble prior to adding water or cooking the moistened product and then refrigerating?

Here's a mini lesson on microbiology: microbe growth has a few phases it goes through.  At first, there's a lag.  Then exponential growth.  Then it caps out, and often there's a death phase following that where the colony essentially self-destructs.  When the kibble arrives to you, the microbes have probably undergone all of these phases.  The microbe growth would have capped out and possibly large amounts of them died off due to limiting factors in the environment.  Basically, dried and inside a bag, the bacteria aren't going to thrive and you can expect that although there are plenty of nutrients in the food, the bacteria won't exist in high numbers.  Then you bring the bag home, open it to fresh air, possibly expose it to light, and then in your case, add water.  At this point, you're changing the micro-climate that the bacteria have existed in and you can expect a new growth cycle to start.  As with before, there will be a lag, exponential growth, a plateau, and then dying off.  The point of refrigerating food is to lengthen the lag phase.  This is where microbes still exist in inconsequential numbers.  It's really difficult to say how long the lag phase is in refrigerated, moistened cat foods.  For other kinds of food, you can find official guidelines, because there's been extensive testing.  If you assume it's similar to other processed meats, then it'd probably be safe for 2 days, but who knows?  

I don't expect cooking the food will do much if it's still going to be stored.  Cooking doesn't kill nearly as many microbes as people tend to think, but it does render most of them inactive.  That is, until they find another hospitable habitat to live in.  That means that as soon as the food has cooled down to a better temperature for them, a new growth cycle begins.  You still have to feed it to the cat during the lag phase in order for it to be safe.  Cooking does reset the growth back to zero, but the growth doesn't stop and the bacteria aren't gone.  

I would also tend to think, if adding water to dry food can increase bacteria/mold then wouldn't the same happen after a cat eats the dry food  and it becomes moist within their stomach/intestines?  Especially after they take a drink of water.

Laurie is right, the acidity of a cat's digestive system is very inhospitable for most pathogens.  Some can survive inside a cat, though, and that's why cats can still get sick.  Cats have immune systems, just like us, that keep the bad bugs at bay.  Harmful bacteria actually get into the cat's system (and ours) on a very regular basis.  Every breath you take has spores in it that would kill you if your body didn't kill it first.  So, the microbiological ecosystem inside an animal is like a tiny battle field.  There are constant invaders, but they only pose a threat if they arrive with a large enough army to cause a full-on battle.  Symptoms are the result of the battle and death is if you lose the battle.  

 

[socksy]

Hi Prez!

I can't answer your questions completely, but I have read a little about this subject and have learned that toxins produced by mold are also a problem when feeding dry food. Heat doesn't destroy toxins, so baking the food won't reduce that particular risk. Below is a link to a reputable site which nicely explains the ins and outs of feline nutrition. (This particular link goes directly to the section about dry food, but there is much more to explore.)

http://catinfo.org/#The_Safety_of_Dry_Food

Mycotoxins are a potential threat in dry food, but they don't necessarily exist in dry food at any significant level (bearing in mind that mould spores, mould, and mycotoxins exist virtually everywhere, but in miniscule numbers).  There have been outbreaks due to mishandling and gaps in regulation, but it's not the rule.  I understand that's a risk many on this forum aren't willing to take, but it must also be acknowledged that adding water or cooking doesn't change the risk level due to mycotoxins.  

 

[stealthkitty]

Mycotoxins are a potential threat in dry food, but they don't necessarily exist in dry food at any significant level (bearing in mind that mould spores, mould, and mycotoxins exist virtually everywhere, but in miniscule numbers).  There have been outbreaks due to mishandling and gaps in regulation, but it's not the rule.  I understand that's a risk many on this forum aren't willing to take, but it must also be acknowledged that adding water or cooking doesn't change the risk level due to mycotoxins.  

I understand that; I was only pointing out that potential risks from dry food go beyond bacteria and mold and that nothing can be done to remove mycotoxins, if present. That said, I know that, in normal circumstances, those risks are small and nothing to worry about (unless there is a recall) but since Prez seemed interested in learning about giving his cat a safer diet, I thought I'd mention something that hadn't been addressed in this thread yet (IIRC).

Personally, the only real concern I have with dry food is the long-term effects of such a diet. If, for whatever reason, I could only provide kibble, potential problems from bacteria, mold or toxins wouldn't be on my list of things to worry about.

(And, Socksy, your contributions to this thread have been very interesting! I appreciate the scientific point of view that you bring to the discussion.)

 

[prez]

Thank you all so very much for your replies!

 

[katluver4life]

DD, back to topic, though moistening the kibble when eaten right away is certainly better then pure dry, I would not risk it. Better to just add a bit more water to the wet, get your hands on a water fountain or water circulating bowel, moving water sure does entice cats to drink more. Your doing fine. When I was low on cash I was feeding my kitties friskies poultry platter pate. It was the only friskies that had the first ingredient as real turkey. These are almost always on sale for less then 50 cents a 5.5 oz can at petsmart or even walmart. It contains no wheat gluten and only grain is rice which is way down on the list of ingredients. Not the best, but not THAT bad either.  Fancy Feast CLASSIC is another low cost grain free (though not labeled as such), but you get less per can, only 3oz for about the same price as a 5.5 of friskies. Don't feel like you HAVE to go high quality grain free to provide your kitties with a good diet. As you can afford it..cut back on the dry, add more wet. As I said before, your doing fine and it's obvious your kitties are very loved and your doing your best for them.
 

 

[sevenwonders]

DD, back to topic, though moistening the kibble when eaten right away is certainly better then pure dry, I would not risk it.
 

So your advice to someone who feeds dry food would be to not allow them to drink water for a certain amount of time before and after eating?

My Kitties eat their moistened dry food in under a minute, and it soaks for 3 to 5 minutes prior to that.

So, if that is a "risk" then it stands to reason that before and after giving them a snack of actual Dry food,

I should not allow them to drink water for at least,

what, 6 minutes? 10 minutes? an hour?

How long must the Dry food stay dry to avoid the "risk"?  

No, this is not an actual concern - I am just trying to make a point.  

 

[peaches08]

I think they meant that it is better to add water to dry food if fed immediately (rather than allowing it to become bacterial soup) than to feed dry without moistening it. I think water was encouraged.

 

[sevenwonders]

I think they meant that it is better to add water to dry food if fed immediately (rather than allowing it to become bacterial soup) than to feed dry without moistening it. I think water was encouraged.

I agree - I said that back on page 1 or 2.

I was addressing the statement "I would not risk it."  

 

[peaches08]

I agree - I said that back on page 1 or 2.
I was addressing the statement "I would not risk it."   :catguy:

I think what was being addressed by Katluver4life are the grazers...leaving moistened dry out for long periods may not be safe. At least that's what I got out if it.

 

[sevenwonders]

I think what was being addressed by Katluver4life are the grazers...leaving moistened dry out for long periods may not be safe. At least that's what I got out if it.

Fair enough. My comments were not intended for folks who took it that way.  

  

However, for those of us who interpreted the statement below as "it is not worth the risk to feed moistened dry food"

... though moistening the kibble when eaten right away is certainly better then pure dry, I would not risk it.
 

...I just wanted to set the record straight.

Kitties eating moistened dry food within a minute or so (as my Kitties do)

presents about the same risk as allowing them to drink water shortly before or after eating the dry food.

In all 3 of those scenarios, they are ingesting dry food along with water.     

For anyone who has not read this entire thread,

I "think" we all agree that it is a BAD idea to let moistened dry food sit out for a long time,

or to prepare moistened dry food in advance and store it for later use.     

If you do timed feedings with a small amount of freshly moistened dry food that they eat right away,

the risk of harmful bacteria growth is virtually eliminated,

the dehydrating effect of the dry food is greatly diminished,

and they realize the benefits of ingesting the extra water.     

 

[peaches08]

Are you able to get as much water into them as you would with canned?

In any case, I'd rather a cat get cheap dry food than nothing. We all love our kitties and try to do the best that we can. My cats eat better than I do!

 

[sevenwonders]

Are you able to get as much water into them as you would with canned?

In any case, I'd rather a cat get cheap dry food than nothing. We all love our kitties and try to do the best that we can. My cats eat better than I do!

My Kitties only get the moistened dry food as a snack.

They eat canned (with water added) twice a day, sometimes with home cooked chicken breast chunks,

and/or a strip of raw chicken or pork for their teeth and gums.

I agree that canned is better than dry, and dry is better than nothing...

as long as the dry food doesn't contain pesticide laced genetically modified corn.

But as long as our "Leaders" continue to allow their citizens to be Monsanto's guinea pigs,

there is no chance that they will make pet food companies stop using GM ingredients.  

"My cats eat better than I do!"

Understood... my Kitties eat better than I do as well.  

I don't knowingly allow them to eat ANY GM ingredients - sadly I cannot afford to buy Organic "everything" for myself.

Plus, with corn and soy (in one form or another) in 25% or more of the items in our grocery stores,  

and considering that most of the animals we eat are fed GM feed, there is no way I can afford to avoid it completely,

at least until and unless our Government finally decides to value our health more than the money

they get from Monsanto, Dow, PepsiCo, Kraft, Nestle, General Mills, and a few other companies that prefer to keep us in the dark   

and require labeling of Genetically Modified ingredients -  like they do in most other Industrialized Nations.           

    

 

[katluver4life]

I meant, I personally would not take the risk that bacteria wouldn't get into the moistened dry, but if eaten RIGHT away, moistened dry is better then dry dry if that's all you have. Sorry if my wording may have been confusing anyone. I was trying to reassure DD, that moistening his dry, if his kitty ate it right away was fine, and that he is doing just fine for his friends. I personally wouldn't risk it cause my cats never eat all right away.

 

[peaches08]

GM foods...always an interesting topic. I can't think of any food that doesn't fit that classification.

 

[socksy]

I think it's basically understood that canned is better than moistened dry, but moistened dry is better than dry dry, and moistened dry doesn't pose greater risk than dry dry in terms of pathogens unless fed after the lag phase of microbe growth, which, although has not been determined, we can assume is longer than it takes a cat to consume the food if fed right away.  

 

[minka]

Just wanted to emphasize that you should Not try to add water to dry and then cook it to preserve it longer. It will destroy the nutritional value of the food and basically turn it into useless mush.

 

[duckdodgers]

Sorry folks, I haven't really been following this thread very closely as of late, but as to the original issue I am not putting any water into the dry anymore. Around November or December I bought a huge amount of Friskies canned in gravy and they don't take too well to the water being added to that (I guess it tones down the tastiness or something), but I have been adding water to the pate foods. I've finally gotten down to where I can only give the gravy food once in awhile to add some textured variety, but now they are both getting some water added to almost all of their canned meals. I don't remember how much wet I was feeding when I started this, but I bumped Stella up to 1/2 can 2 times a day instead of once. Alafair is getting 1/4 can 2 times (5.5 oz) because she won't really eat any more than that without it sitting out for a long time. They still have dry food out for most of the night, but I haven't been leaving it out during the day unless I'm going to be gone for most of the day (they try to eat each other's food). So basically, I think I've come to a solution for the time being.

 

[sevenwonders]

Sorry folks, I haven't really been following this thread very closely as of late, but as to the original issue I am not putting any water into the dry anymore.  Around November or December I bought a huge amount of Friskies canned in gravy and they don't take too well to the water being added to that (I guess it tones down the tastiness or something), but I have been adding water to the pate foods.  I've finally gotten down to where I can only give the gravy food once in awhile to add some textured variety, but now they are both getting some water added to almost all of their canned meals.  I don't remember how much wet I was feeding when I started this, but I bumped Stella up to 1/2 can 2 times a day instead of once.  Alafair is getting 1/4 can 2 times (5.5 oz) because she won't really eat any more than that without it sitting out for a long time.  They still have dry food out for most of the night, but I haven't been leaving it out during the day unless I'm going to be gone for most of the day (they try to eat each other's food).  So basically, I think I've come to a solution for the time being. 

Sounds like you have a workable plan, and if you ever want to reconsider,

you have a nice long thread here to refer to.  

 

[duckdodgers]

Sounds like you have a workable plan, and if you ever want to reconsider,

you have a nice long thread here to refer to.  

Yup!  I do appreciate everyone's replies, I just haven't really had the chance to go and review everything!