just introduced Raw

[wilson]

Ok so the plan was to feed frankenprey, but right now its got me a bit confused, with amounts, plus i would have to buy a grinder$$$

So today about some Pre ground commercial Raw from Carnivora.ca  What do you all think of this food? I got the whole chicken diet for now,and guess what they ate it like nobodys business!! I put a tiny bit beside their Wellness wet food...woooohhoooooo!!!

So just chicken to start, then I will try the beef, elk, and rabbit.  Any advice???

 

[ldg]

When I was first looking for ground foods, someone here found that site. I was SO disappointed it was only available in Canada! It looks like a quality product. Can't beat whole ground animal for a kitty!

I did find that feeding whole ground animal foods that some of my kitties tended to get a little constipated (must be a higher percentage of bone per meat in larger animals or something. :dk: ). I did have to add a little bit of meat I just cut up with scissors here and there either to those meals, or just fed as a separate meal a couple of times a week. It didn't happen to all the kitties, so just something to keep an eye out for (a high amount of calcium in the diet will cause constipation. Too little will cause diarrhea).

Rotation will be important to ensure they're getting all they need nutritionally. But no rush, you can work into it at their pace.

Just FYI, if it's ground, it's not frankenprey. No grinder necessary for Frankenprey. Either a knife, or scissors. I prefer scissors.

 

[wilson]

Yes I planned on Frankenprey, but was going to remove bone and chop up, also was going to do some grinding for the bone part.  Does that make sense?   Im just not sure if Im going to have to supplement with this commercial kind? the one i bought is basically a whole chicken ground up, nothing else.  I plan on giving some sardines once a week, but what else do I need to give? I do plan on getting other ones too like the rabbit, beef, turkey and elk.

 

[ldg]

Well, taurine theoretically isn't degraded by freezing, but it is degraded by oxidation, and ground has more surface area. So if it were me, I'd probably provide 250mg of taurine daily. That's just 1/2 a 500mg capsule daily. Also, taurine is water soluble, so do mix in the juice that "runs off" when you dethaw the food before serving. :nod:

I'd also consider either mixing in a raw egg yolk once or twice a week, or just offering a raw egg yolk once or twice a week as a snack, if they like it. Those are packed with all kinds of nutrients.

Finally, the meat we provide our cats is higher in omega 6 and lower in omega 3 than their natural prey, so i choose to provide omega 3 in the form of either krill oil or salmon oil capsules. I was puncturing the capsule and dividing one 1000mg capsule between my 8 cats at each meal (I feed them 3x a day). Based on more recent research, I'm about to start giving them each one 1,000mg krill oil capsule a day. I don't know if they'd eat 1,000mg of salmon oil squished on their food in one meal, it has a very strong smell. :lol3: I'm doing this because my cats decided the didn't like sardines. If they like the sardines, you might consider feeding them as a snack twice a week instead of just once.

 

[wilson]

Ok now Im getting nervous after reading their web page about chicken being the highest in fat, and the bone can cause constipation. Also all the stuff about

parasites, etc.... I know all this stuff, but now Im scared, lol! I just want to feed whats best for them.

 So I guess Im going to have to go buy another bag of a different protein.

Not sure which one to get?? I looked at the nutritional analysis, why does it not show Taurine? Im guessing that Beef would be the highest in Taurine?

Will have to pick up some Taurine caps.....thanks LDG

 

[whollycat]

Ok now Im getting nervous after reading their web page about chicken being the highest in fat, and the bone can cause constipation. Also all the stuff about

parasites, etc.... I know all this stuff, but now Im scared, lol! I just want to feed whats best for them.

...

I looked at the nutritional analysis, why does it not show Taurine?

I agree with what Laurie posted. I'd also add that parasites are killed by freezing. Any bacteria would be handled by the unique characteristics of a kitty's digestive system.

I do add psyllium mixed with extra water to their home-prepared ground food because my older kitty especially will get constipated if I don't. Even when I get pre-ground from Hare Today, I add B-complex, taurine, egg yolks, liver, Vit E (helps with oxidation of fats and is a natural preservative), and I add a 500mg capsule of Krill Oil at feeding time to their daily amount of food. I think that's it.

Yes, chicken can be high in fat, but since I make my own, I can remove half to a third of the skin. Fat is a good source of energy for kitties, so it isn't all bad, but excess can lead to a "greasy" coat. Since you're ordering pre-made food, just rotate between different foods.

Yeah, it's hard to find a taurine amount in foods. I always add around 500-1000mg extra to a pound or so of meat--no matter what the type of meat (rabbit is notoriously low in taurine, so I add even more when feeding rabbit). It's water soluble, so you can't overdose this important (especially to kitties) amino sulfonic acid. When looking for a brand, go with capsules (or powder) instead of tablets. Capsules/powder contain less fillers, etc. than tablets, and you want a brand that has virtually no fillers in it. NOW Foods, Source Naturals, Jarrow, and Bluebonnet Nutrition are reputable brands, but read the labels as to what besides taurine are in them.

You're doing just fine! So cool that your kitties gobbled the food right up!

 

[ldg]

Well look at it this way. If the kibble manufacturers were honest and put up on their websites the equivalent information, they'd have warnings that indicate the food most likely is packed with bacteria, so make sure you don't mix kibble with water, or you'll create the perfect environment to make "bacteria soup." They'd have warnings that feeding your cats that food may cause FLUTD, obesity, diabetes, and CRF.

Canned food manufacturers would have warnings that if the food contains carageenan, it may cause gastric upset, ulcers, and chronic inflammation.

We could go on and on.... but I think you get the point. I think just a little perspective is needed. :rub:

If you want to read a little bit about how and why the feline digestive system can handle the bacteria that may be in ANY food they eat, here are two posts that address it:

One is here: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/245431/dont-listen-to-tufts-university#post_3216259

The other is the studies I cited in my letter to the AVMA: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/246595/avma-to-vote-to-take-a-stand-against-raw-feeding/90#post_3229546

And if you're going to use a taurine supplement, I really wouldn't worry about the taurine levels in the protein source. If feeding them in rotation, and using the supplement, they'll get more than enough! :nod:

...as to the fat in chicken... again, short term this won't be an issue. It isn't a good idea (as you know) to feed just one protein source anyway. But cats are designed to use both fat and protein from animals, so I really wouldn't worry about the fat content. They'll get a good mix over time. A food that's a little high in fat is MUCH better for them than a food that's loaded with carbs! :lol3:

 

[wilson]

Thanks LDG and Whollycat!!!  The thing is, is that i know all this stuff about kibble, bacteria, etc

.... my cats do not eat any kibble whatsoever. They have been eating canned since 2007. That is when I learned about feline nutrition. I have been trying to add raw since about 2009. Finally I have succeded, I  have been touting raw and wet since 2007, and now they are finally eating raw, so I guess Im just questioning things I learned, not sure why.  I guess I just worry about how many hands or machines produce the pre raw, and the more chance for contamination.  Plus wanting to make sure my cats get the right amount of nutrition.  In the mornings I have to give Wilson  L-lysine, I put it in his Wellness then put a small amount of the raw on the side. Well he didnt touch his Wellness, and only ate the raw.

 he needs to get his medication, yikes!!! Does Taurine have any taste to it?? I dont want them refusing their food cause of this.  Why does the website not state that you need to supplement?

Sorry for all the questions!!

 

[txcatmom]

raw egg yolk once or twice a week as a snack, if they like it

Great little bit of info for me to have.  I've been throwing away several egg yolks per week because I often have a whole egg + one egg white as part of my breakfast.  That discarded yolk could be given to the kitties instead. 

 

[ldg]

Does Taurine have any taste to it?? I dont want them refusing their food cause of this. 

It doesn't appear to have any taste. My cats will not eat food with medication (other than Lysine) in it/on it, and they eat the taurine sprinkled on top with no problem (all of them!).

Why does the website not state that you need to supplement?

Because technically if you're rotation proteins of whole ground animals, they're getting the nutrition they need. None of the supplements are necessary, most likely. The taurine is the only one I would definitely use, just because it's so important (without it they can have eye problems or heart failure), and since there's not really an issue with "too much," given the meat is ground, I just see it as a kind of insurance. The rest, as I pointed out in my post, are all (also) optional.

Sorry for all the questions!!

No need to be sorry! That's what we're here for!

 

[wilson]

Wholly Cat how much  psyllium would I add to an 8oz portion of food? and how often?

 

[wilson]

Just bought some Elk and Rabbit...will let you all know how that goes.

 

[ldg]

I've never tried Elk, though a number of my kitties like Venison. And rabbit they all seem to like (now). :lol3:

 

[sugarcatmom]

Weirdly enough, my cats LUUUUUUUUUV venison (probably one of their favourite meats), but hate elk. The elk did seem a lot stringier to me and smelled even gamier than venison, but that could have also just been this particular source of elk. 

 

[ritz]

Ritz loves venison, but it is hard to find.  My nephew hunts and luckily I know a lady who has a farm who would love my nephew to cull the deer.

Ritz loves rabbit, but it is expensive, particularly since it is high in bone (I feed Ritz the low end of the recommended percentage because she is prone to constipation).

Ritz also likes goat, which I can find in international supermarkets.

Basically, Ritz likes anything!

 

[wilson]

Update...cats are eating rabbit now. they did not fancy the Elk so much, but they ate a bit. The also ate chicken.  They are still eating the Wellness wet too.

I am so afraid to give them a full raw meal, I do not want to have to deal with constipation or diahrea.

They also love Sardines!!! I only give a bit of this every other day. I bought some Taurine caps, but have not used them yet.

So experienced people what should I do next??

 

[whollycat]

Wholly Cat how much  psyllium would I add to an 8oz portion of food? and how often?

Sorry I missed this earlier. I would start with mixing 1/8 teaspoon psyllium powder with 2 tablespoons of water and adding to each meal to see if you need to adjust amount up from that or not. Once you know how much psyllium/water per meal (and how much food is fed per meal), you can then add an amount of psyllium and water to the 8oz portion. You want to make sure you use a good amount of water (minimum of 2 tablespoons per 1/8 tsp psyllium), because it will thicken quite a bit after sitting. Because of this you never want to mix without water in their food--it can cause it to become too thick and contribute to constipation and maybe even choking.

If this doesn't make sense, please just let me know.

 

[auntie crazy]

Not everyone believes it's necessary to add supplements to raw foods and, to be frank, I'd be very reluctant to add anything at all to commercial foods, especially if they have AAFCO's little "complete and balanced" stamp. AAFCO has determined the minimum amounts of many nutrients but not the maximums, and commercial companies often add more than AAFCO's recommended minimum as their own personal insurance they'll pass any AAFCO-related chemical analysis. Adding additional supplements is likely unnecessary and may be risking overdoses (most likely, however, it's just a waste of money).

In addition, many (most?) of the supplements in commercial products are synthetic and that changes how they are absorbed by the cat's body, which will impact the true minimum amounts needed when feeding cats their naturally wholesome diet. The composition of commercial foods also impacts the digestibility of it's nutrients; the presence of carbs, for instance, reduces the efficiency of protein digestion, a one-two punch to the kitty's ability to get what she needs from the product. (You can find some interesting info on this topic here: Does Raw Pet Food Warrant a Unique Set of Nutrient Requirements?)

And while taurine is water soluble, it's also one of the most talked-about nutrient requirements (although there are, in fact, 10 other essential amino acids that no one ever mentions). Therefore, it's at the top of the pet food industry's radar and most likely already present in the foods in levels exceeding what's truly required.

Although many on TCS do, most raw-feeding cat owners don't add supplements to their prey model raw diets, either (I don't), the assumption being that as long as the diet is balanced per the standard guideline (80% meat, 10% bone, 5% liver, 5% other organ), cats are getting what they need in it's most easily digestible form and most effective combinations.

Cats with compromised digestive systems due to disease or too long on kibble diets, etc., are, of course, special cases that must be handled in ways that address their specific issues.

Just like us, however, healthy cats don't need, in my opinion, anything beyond a balanced, fresh and species-appropriate diet.

My two cents, to balance the other opinions you've already received.

AC

 

[wilson]

Not everyone believes it's necessary to add supplements to raw foods and, to be frank, I'd be very reluctant to add anything at all to commercial foods, especially if they have AAFCO's little "complete and balanced" stamp. AAFCO has determined the minimum amounts of many nutrients but not the maximums, and commercial companies often add more than AAFCO's recommended minimum as their own personal insurance they'll pass any AAFCO-related chemical analysis. Adding additional supplements is likely unnecessary and may be risking overdoses (most likely, however, it's just a waste of money).

In addition, many (most?) of the supplements in commercial products are synthetic and that changes how they are absorbed by the cat's body, which will impact the true minimum amounts needed when feeding cats their naturally wholesome diet. The composition of commercial foods also impacts the digestibility of it's nutrients; the presence of carbs, for instance, reduces the efficiency of protein digestion, a one-two punch to the kitty's ability to get what she needs from the product. (You can find some interesting info on this topic here: Does Raw Pet Food Warrant a Unique Set of Nutrient Requirements?)

And while taurine is water soluble, it's also one of the most talked-about nutrient requirements (although there are, in fact, 10 other essential amino acids that no one ever mentions). Therefore, it's at the top of the pet food industry's radar and most likely already present in the foods in levels exceeding what's truly required.

Although many on TCS do, most raw-feeding cat owners don't add supplements to their prey model raw diets, either (I don't), the assumption being that as long as the diet is balanced per the standard guideline (80% meat, 10% bone, 5% liver, 5% other organ), cats are getting what they need in it's most easily digestible form and most effective combinations.

Cats with compromised digestive systems due to disease or too long on kibble diets, etc., are, of course, special cases that must be handled in ways that address their specific issues.

Just like us, however, healthy cats don't need, in my opinion, anything beyond a balanced, fresh and species-appropriate diet.

My two cents, to balance the other opinions you've already received.

AC

Hi Auntie thanks for your input, have you checked out this food (carnivora)? it is whole prey ground up, no supplements added to it, just the whole animal. It is frozen patties. So because of the freezing I was concerened about the supplements that I needed to add. They are getting rabbit, chicken and Elk so far. plus some sardines a couple times a week. Yet Shadow is still not on full raw, Wilson is.

 

[wolcar]

Should you give the sardines and eggs as snacks or as a replacement of a meal?

I get the little pack of sardines in water with no salt added.  But there are like 4 sardines in there. Is it cool to give each 2 and call it a meal or is it better to give one as a snack and not replace the meal? They LOVE sardines!!!