Don't listen to Tufts University!

I did a web search on "safety of raw cat food" to get some more detailed information about how cats are able to avoid getting sick by eating it. One website I found is pathetic: Tufts University claims there have been no studies on raw cat food that prove it is beneficial, but studies have been done that prove it is dangerous. Then the author went on to say cats need corn and grains, so those ingredients are not fillers and a cat without food allergies should eat them. Ugh. How can a cat and dog expert think commercial food not made of real human quality meat that is full of ingredients carnivores don't eat in the wild is good for our pets and there is absolutely no proof cats should eat raw food instead? I can't say the writer is wrong about everything because one point is "human grade" does not guarantee a total lack of harmful bacteria, but saying it is good to eat something like Science Diet looks like a so-called animal expert does not know much about feline nutrition and cooked cat food sold in stores. Obviously I was only able to believe a few sentences in that long article and assumed BARFfeeders would hate every word.

Wow!  That's shocking.  Must have been paid for by the cat food industry

Yeah, we had a long discussion about that issue (studies of raw) here: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/239547/scientific-studies-supporting-raw-food-diet

What information are you looking for, Emily? How to make raw food safer because of the bacteria in the supply chain? Or did you mean the relationship between the GI system and the Immune system?

LDG said:

Yeah, we had a long discussion about that issue (studies of raw) here: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/239547/scientific-studies-supporting-raw-food-diet
What information are you looking for, Emily? How to make raw food safer because of the bacteria in the supply chain? Or did you mean the relationship between the GI system and the Immune system?

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Exactly what is the mechanism that prevents cats from getting sick when they ingest harmful bacteria in raw food.

mrsgreenjeens said:

Wow!  That's shocking.  Must have been paid for by the cat food industry

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I would not be surprised because it sure looks like that. But coming from a veterinary college makes me wonder how the pet food industry can influence the writer.

In colleges, lots of things are paid for by various businesses--they're huge donators. You don't want to know how many med school courses are sponsored by pharmaceutical companies. And how many vet school courses are sponsored by pet food companies. It keeps the schools in business without passing the entire cost on to the students, but it does make you wonder about the objectivity of what they teach :/.

Generally speaking, carnivores have strong stomach acid that kills harmful bacteria. Not many cooties can stand such an acid environment .

EmilyMayWilcha said:

But coming from a veterinary college makes me wonder how the pet food industry can influence the writer.

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This is how the pet food industry exerts their influence:

http://www.vetschoolblog.com/2010/05/18/why-i-wont-be-heading-for-the-hills/

http://www.vet.k-state.edu/research/pdf/Nestle_Purina.pdf

http://www.uoguelph.ca/news/2008/04/royal_canin_can.html

http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/vet/new...rtheschoolofveterinarymedicineandscience.aspx

http://clubs.ncsu.edu/scavma/Hills/index.html

http://www.k9magazinefree.com/k9_perspective/iss18p17.shtml

http://rawfed.com/myths/vets.html

Is this the article?    http://www.tufts.edu/vet/nutrition/resources/raw_meat_diets.pdf

Wow very startling coming from a clinical nutritionist. Many of her top ten myths about raw food are false. Number 3 really erks me because basic 1st year biology tells you that carnivores have shorter digestive systems than omnivores and herbivores, but then she tries to link that to Salmonella.. I found a bunch of other articles written by Dr. Freeman and I agree and disagree with many of her findings.  She supports animal by-products and grains in cat food and dislikes raw diets (I DO NOT AGREE WITH THAT), yet she does state that its very important to look at who's manufacturing the food, regulations and notes that many pet food companies do not even have nutritionists working for them (yet I wouldn't want her dictating ingredients).

I agree with the posts above, it sounds like she's supporting  a corporate agenda, a veterinary diet agenda is my guess.

This sorta thing doesn't surprise me though, many companies use universities to back up their info (may it be true or false) to gain public support, it happens quite often actually.

Violetxx said:

Is this the article?    http://www.tufts.edu/vet/nutrition/resources/raw_meat_diets.pdf

Wow very startling coming from a clinical nutritionist. Many of her top ten myths about raw food are false. Number 3 really erks me because basic 1st year biology tells you that carnivores have shorter digestive systems than omnivores and herbivores, but then she tries to link that to Salmonella.. :smshfrk: I found a bunch of other articles written by Dr. Freeman and I agree and disagree with many of her findings.  She supports animal by-products and grains in cat food and dislikes raw diets (I DO NOT AGREE WITH THAT), yet she does state that its very important to look at who's manufacturing the food, regulations and notes that many pet food companies do not even have nutritionists working for them (yet I wouldn't want her dictating ingredients).
I agree with the posts above, it sounds like she's supporting  a corporate agenda, a veterinary diet agenda is my guess.:wife:

This sorta thing doesn't surprise me though, many companies use universities to back up their info (may it be true or false) to gain public support, it happens quite often actually.

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Just shocking to me coming from Dr. Freeman, but I am not surprised. I do think she has an agenda and totally disagree with many of her statements. Even my own vet confirms this as true that carnivores DO in fact have shorter digestive tracts. What planet is she from???? :rofl: Definitey she is in "bed" with the pet food industry!!! :slant: Fear mongering to a "T"......

EmilyMayWilcha said:

Exactly what is the mechanism that prevents cats from getting sick when they ingest harmful bacteria in raw food.

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Back to this question. (Though thanks for all the great links as re: the Pet Food Industry influencing Vet students, Schools, and Veterinarians!)

This is a good starting point in layman's terms: http://catcentric.org/care-and-health/salmonella-e-coli-and-listeria-oh-my/

Since much of the information re: Feline GI system/digestion comes from the Nutrition Research Council "Nutrient Requirements of Dogs and Cats," (The information on which the AAFCO bases its nutrient requirements - adjusted for bioavailability), you may want to invest in the book. :dk:

Basically, the (very short, so there's no time for fermentation) digestive system of cats has evolved so that their immune system can "attack" those bad bacteria, yet not give them time to "percolate" into an illness.

Now, because their gut flora is all out of whack if they're not fed raw as kittens, giving your cat an acidophilus probiotic - no matter WHAT diet you feed them (kibble, canned, home made cooked, home made raw) - is a very good idea. :nod: In nature, cats usually eat the entire mouse or small rodent, which means they eat the stomach and the intestines. This naturally provides them with "probiotics." So our supplementing them with probiotics helps restore proper intestinal flora, giving their systems "help" with that immune-functioning. :nod:

For a more scientific/technical understanding, a good place to start is here:

http://winnfelinehealth.blogspot.com/2012/03/raw-food-diets-for-kittens.html

A follow-up report (not yet published), written after all of the data was available, indicates some of the mechanics of the GI-immune system functioning when fed raw.

First - from the report as re: probiotics.

"Although the mechanisms are not completely understood, certain bacterial probiotic strains have been shown to enhance systemic immune responses in puppies.[11]"

The citation: 11. Benyacoub, J., et al., Supplementation of food with Enterococcus faecium (SF68) stimulates immune functions in young dogs. Journal of Nutrition, 2003. 133(4): p. 1158-1162.


Other immune responses and related information:

"Minimal humoral IgG and IgM differences were seen between the two raw diets and the control heat-processed diet at each time point. The
homemade raw had significant increases over time in IgG concentration and total lymphocyte counts and the commercial raw had significant increases in IgM concentration over time. A trend was noted for higher serum levels of IgM concentration in the commercial raw diet fed kittens when compared to the control diet group. This diet also had the highest number of bacteria as determined by aerobic plate counts. Systemic immune responses are responsive to bacterial degradation products. It is unknown whether the increases seen in immunoglobulin concentrations in the raw diets over time were secondary to increased antigen exposure, pathogen exposure, or nutritional formulation differences."

...Basically, the raw fed cats had a higher level of activity of immune response though they don't know why. There was also a higher level of bacteria in the food (to be expected in raw vs cooked), but it didn't make the cats sick. They found salmonella in fecal matter of two kittens fed raw, but the kittens weren't sick from it.

Comments on that are:

"The ‘hygiene hypothesis’ states that a leading cause of the increased incidence of allergy and autoimmune disorders seen over the last 50 years is due to decreased exposure to microorganisms, both pathogenic and nonpathogenic.[12, 13] It is theorized that reduced bacterial exposures have resulted in alterations in the induction of regulatory T cells that promote tolerance.[14-16]. An alternative hypothesis has been that increased density of intestinal commensal flora would result in higher penetration of soluble microbial molecules. This would affect T-cell function by facilitating tolerance through activation and clonal deletion of T-cells repeatedly exposed to antigens.[17] Previous studies have shown the influence of diet on gut microflora composition.[18, 19] Differing levels of fat, protein and fiber along with specific dietary components have changed gut flora over time.[18] During the past 50-70 years with the advent of commercial pet foods, diets fed to cats have shifted in terms of relative contributions of macronutrients to total energy intake. Increasing levels of carbohydrate for energy production have replaced higher protein levels. One would also assume decreasing or increasing the quantity and types of microbial antigens from the diet would also alter gut flora over time. Larger diet-microbiome association studies are needed to further define how nutrients and food processing affect the composition of the microbiota and their effects on metabolism and immune function."

The citations for that:

12. Sironi, M. and M. Clerici, The hygiene hypothesis: an evolutionary perspective. Microbes and Infection, 2010. 12(6): p. 421-427.
13. Strachan, D.P., Hay-fever, hygiene and household size. . British Medical Journal, 1989. 299(6710): p. 1259-1260.
14. Guarner, F., et al., Mechanisms of disease: the hygiene hypothesis revisited. Nature Clinical Practice Gastroenterology & Hepatology, 2006. 3(5): p. 275-284.
15. Yazdanbakhsh, M., P.G. Kremsner, and R. van Ree, Immunology - Allergy, parasites, and the hygiene hypothesis. Science, 2002. 296(5567): p. 490-494.
16. Gale, E.A.M., A missing link in the hygiene hypothesis? Diabetologia, 2002. 45(4): p. 588-594.
17. Macpherson, A.J. and N.L. Harris, Interactions between commensal intestinal bacteria and the immune system. Nature Reviews Immunology, 2004. 4(6): p. 478-485.
18. Wu, G.D., et al., Linking Long-Term Dietary Patterns with Gut Microbial Enterotypes. Science, 2011. 333(6052): p. 105-108.
19. Turnbaugh, P.J., et al., The Effect of Diet on the Human Gut Microbiome: A Metagenomic Analysis in Humanized Gnotobiotic Mice. Science Translational Medicine, 2009. 1(6).


Other immune response related information:

"The homemade raw diet was found to have higher oxidative burst responses to the stimulant PMA than the commercial raw diet. The dietary level of taurine in this diet was also three times higher. Taurine, a known scavenger of oxidized chlorine, acts as a general detoxifier protecting neutrophils from oxidant-induced injury generated from the myeloperoxidase/chloride system. Adding higher dietary levels of taurine to pet foods to improve innate immune function may be recommended..."

"Transitioning the kittens from a moderate to a high protein diet in all the groups resulted in significant increases in Clostridium perfringens and associated diarrhea. With antibiotics these cases resolved, but diarrhea was extended in the first group of kittens who did not receive antibiotics and in the last group of kittens on the control diet."

(The control diet was the high quality canned food). What that paragraph means is that all of the cats had a normal gut bacteria get out of whack (clostridium perfringens) with the high protein diet, but the cats on raw had their diarrhea resolve faster with the antibiotics.



Other interesting information, not related to the immune response:

"Significantly higher digestibility of dry matter, organic matter, protein and energy were seen in raw vs. heat-processed diets in both kittens and adult cats. This difference resulted in significantly less fecal matter despite similar levels of dry matter intake and kcal ingested. These differences may be due to changes in protein structure secondary to heat or commercial processing, alterations in gastrointestinal flora and protein ingredient quality itself."


So.... basically, there is benefit to providing probiotics. But with or without them, raw fed cats have a higher level of immune response to bacteria, and there can be the presence of bacteria like salmonella, but they don't necessarily get sick from it.

The reasons why raw fed cats have a [better? stronger?] immune response are not yet known.

Does that help?

Oh - and if you're interested in the relationship between GI system and immune health, we started exploring it in this thread: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/241072/the-digestive-system-immune-system-connection

It is obvious Dr. Freeman has a relationship with the pet food industry. No independent nutritionist would write that article.

Can you imagine what she said during the melamine scare in 2007? Probably the same thing Purina did: Companies test for it, so wheat gluten is harmless.

You definitely don't need to be a BARF feeder to know Dr.Freeman was dead wrong on almost everything.

I have been feeding my cats raw kangaroo mince on a once or twice a week basis for years and one of them is 20 years old!

On researching cat foods (mainly for my CRF boy) I did read that feline and canine gut and intestinal tract digests their food very quickly therefore depriving any dangerous bacteria of the time they need to populate the gut to a level where the animal will get ill. Have you not seen a dog dig up a piece of rotten green meat and devour it with no side effects? It makes sense to me.

Did someone tell you not to feed kangaroo every day or is that because of the price?

Why would someone feed the same food day in / day out? Especially when you feed raw, the key is rotation of proteins. :dk:

LDG said:

Why would someone feed the same food day in / day out? Especially when you feed raw, the key is rotation of proteins.

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I was just wondering if kangaroo specifically is meant to be fed in rotation like rabbit because other meats like beef are OK every day.

I don't know anyone that feeds exclusively beef (when feeding raw food). :scratch: I know a lot of people buy just one kind of canned or kibble for their pet and feed that forever, but IMO, even when feeding commercial canned or kibble, rotating both proteins and brands is important.

When feeding raw, some kitties make it difficult for us to rotate more than two or three proteins, but IMO, it's ideal to rotate 4 - 7.

Kangroo is expensive in the U.S., but it is available: http://www.marxfoods.com/products/Kangaroo

Llama is also available (ground for pets): https://www.hare-today.com/index.php?cPath=21_57&osCsid=4d4bd2765f1803703cb6d5ce90832242
And mouse, in fact: https://www.hare-today.com/index.php?cPath=21_46&osCsid=4d4bd2765f1803703cb6d5ce90832242

As is elk, ostrich, muskrat.. http://www.mypetcarnivore.com/