I NEED HELP WITH INTRODUCTIONS

[calicosrspecial]

Agreed, we don't want to stress out Cilla.

I don't know if I want to have gates up with Cilla in Sherry Spice's area. Because I don't want her to feel "trapped". I want her to be confident that she can move wherever whenever.

What does Cilla do in Sherry Spice's area? Are you able to see/watch?

When you showed Sherry Spice Cilla in the master did Cilla notice? Or was Cilla sleeping?

It is great that Sherry Spice doesn't care that Cilla is there. That means she isn't afraid of her. GREAT.

Yes, I agree, we are in a good place, we don't want a major setback. BUT we do need to get them together trying to make it as positive as possible. How, is the difficult question.

I would like to step up the site swapping with Cilla going in Sherry Spice's area while you distract Sherry Spice in the master (if this is possible). As long as the answer to the above question is "Cilla acts normal in Sherry Spice's area". Doesn't slink around or mark etc.

Part of me wonders if when Cilla is in the master we have no gates up but you shadow Sherry Spice. Your presence might cause Cilla to just observe IF Cilla decides to take a look. Then we watch their body language and how they act. If there is no chase etc then we have a positive. And we build on that.

You have done a great job, this is not an easy situation for a couple of reasons. But I think you are well on your way to success. We just need to wrap this up. This is where the art comes in. Your knowledge and instincts are great so let me know what you think.

 

[elainerov]

When Cilla is in Sherry-Spices area, she jumps on the bed lays fully stretched out on it, and rolls on Sherry-Spices toys. She does not seems at all stressed being in there.
When I try to show Sherry-Spice that Cilla is in the master bedroom, she doesn't even seem to see her.
Cilla seems to be spending all of her waking time at the gate now. I know she is looking for Sherry-Spice (she can't always see her).
Yes, maybe just opening the gates from the master bedroom, but I'm so concerned Cilla will sneak up on Sherry Spice.
I know I am so close. They are very close to each other at the gates, sit a look at each other, no aggression on either side now.
You don't think opening the gates when they are at the gates, and aware of each other is a good idea?
I do see that, at times, Sherry Spice is hesitant to be too close to the gates when Cilla is there, but other times, not at all.
My greatest hope is they will just go nose to nose at the gates....
Cilla has come a VERY long way. I will continue with the site swapping for a few more days .

I know we are on the home stretch!

 

[calicosrspecial]

It is really good that Cilla is so comfortable in Sherry Spice's territory. She is getting her scent on things in there to mark a bit so there may be some territorial behavior going on but it is not worrying. But Sherry Spice seems not to mind Cilla's scent, correct?

Wow she spends all her time at the gate. Calm? Tail moving slowly or not at all? Good body language?

Yes, you are very close with them it sounds. It sounds great. The more they are together without incident the easier their meeting face to face will go. The key is to have them think "I know that cat, that cat is cool, no threat".

We want them to meet in the most neutral and the place where both are most confident if at all possible.

I was thinking near the master as Cilla seems comfortable there and with you near she may just observe and I don't believe Sherry Spice would get aggressive with Cilla there. So we could have a positive encounter even if only for a short time. I am assuming Cilla is very confident in the master so there is an assumption and Sherry Spice will not be "funny" by the master and may just ignore Cilla (since Sherry Spice seems to ignore Cilla in the master). The thinking is anywhere where we can have a meeting without incident. But I trust your instincts.

At the gates to Sherry Spice's room I have a few concerns. The time it takes to take down the gates (might cause Cilla to run away). It is Sherry Spice's territory so she may be more likely to defend "her" territory. Cilla may not be as confident in that space because it is Sherry Spice's (given Cilla does rub her scent on the toys). We want to try to maximize the chance for a positive encounter (ie no chase, growling, puffy tails, etc).

I can't exactly remember the set up. What about if you take the gates down and Sherry Spice comes out on her own with you sitting near the entry into the "common" area if or when Cilla is in the common area? Or does Cilla not spend enough time in there?

I would LOVE to see them nose to nose at the gate. But we haven't seen that yet. But I don't think it is necessary.

Cilla has come a really long way. I am proud of how you helped her. She went through tremendous loss. Change is hard on a cat and loss like that is incredibly hard. Sherry Spice seems to have really helped bring Cilla back into life as well. Given Cilla doesn't play and respond to treats it is actually very impressive things have progressed so quickly (combined with what Cilla went through).

We are on the home stretch, it is not a question of IF they will get along but WHEN.

Think about were you think they could get together with the best chance of a positive encounter. You certainly know your cats so I trust your judgement.

 

[elainerov]

We had a bad incident today. Sherry-Spice climbed the gates, and I think Cilla did exactly what I thought she would do, caught Sherry-Spice off guard and they went at it. I wasn't in the room, but I heard it. And I saw fur, so apparently there was contact - and a lot of yelling. Sherry-Spice climbed back over the gate to her side...

How far backwards did we go?

 

[calicosrspecial]

Maybe a little, I guess we just weren't ready yet. Sherry Spice was (since she climbed the gate) but Cilla was not ready.

We don't know exactly what happened. My best guess, Cilla saw Sherry Spice in "her" territory and went after her. Sherry Spice then retreated and Cilla did not totally pursue (over the gate). I have seen this a lot.

How did they act after this? How was Sherry Spice? How was Cilla? Any hiding? Any skittishness? Have they been together by the gate since? ANy detail about how they behaved will be helpful.

I guess we are not yet ready. But this is not unusual, this happens. It is always disappointing but very common.

Now let's see how they are acting.

Please do not be hard on yourself. There are always ups and downs. I like that Sherry Spice wanted to come out. She knows Cilla is there and she wasn't afraid. Cilla wasn't ready yet. The key is how they act after this.

 

[elainerov]

Both very upset. Sherry Spice is hanging out in the other room in her area where she never goes. I tried to get her out last night, but she crouched back to her area. Cilla had diarrhea last night and vomited during the night, and hasn't eaten anything. She has been mostly under the bed, but did go to the door for a minute - fat tail.

Sherry Spice is not willing to play very much (usually very playful). Last night I put a sheet up over the doors so they couldn't see each during the night. My thought was to give them a chance to both decompress.

My guess is Sherry-Spice was not expecting Cilla to be around, because she has been very confident in the common area because she is knows Cilla is not around. I think she just wanted out... and yes agreed, Cilla saw her and went after her. Unfortunately when Sherry-Spice went to climb back over the gates to her side, one of them fell (that I saw) and I'm sure scared both of them twice as much.

It's totally my fault I only had 2 gates up and went outside.

What do you suggest I do now?

 

[calicosrspecial]

No, please do not blame yourself. Let's move forward from here. It is not the end of the world.

Their reaction is more that I would have thought.

Cilla sounds like she was very stressed. So we need to coddle her a bit and let her have some time to decompress. Go at her pace, don't try to encourage her to come out etc. Let's let her come out on her own. Try to act as calm and confident as possible around her.

Is Sherry Spice hanging out in an area that can't be seen from the gate area? Again, just go at her pace, don't force play, use food to help her when she comes out.

Very good job of putting a sheet up at the door. Just to give them some time to regroup.

So let's put things on pause for now. Let's get Cilla eating and being less stressed. So try to let her be. Please keep the sheet up for now again just to let them have a pause. I am guessing Sherry Spice will revert back to normal quicker (even though she was the target). Then go back to playing, feeding, everything like normal with Sherry Spice. Cilla is a little trickier, make sure she has her comfy places, be calm and confident around her. Once she starts exploring and realizes there is not threat she will rebound. Then we will take the sheet down and watch how they react and then proceed based on how they are acting.

Your belief of how things went down sounds right (and very common). I didn't think Cilla was going to react that way so I am a little surprised but not totally surprised. Sherry was more ready than Cilla (even though Cilla seemed to be really interested). This is very much art rather than science but we will get through it.

PLEASE do not be too hard on yourself. We'll move forward. The fact they didn't really fight tells me that they will get along. Please let me know how they are reacting and how they are doing and we will go from there.

I will be here with you every step of the way, don't worry. I know how frustrating it is but some cat introductions just take more time than others.

 

[elainerov]

Miraculously, they are pretty much back to normal. Just as you said. Cillas eye is teary, I'm sure from stress. I worry about these things because I cannot treat her.

Sherry-Spice was in the common area last night and seemed ok.

Cilla is back to eating and the BMs back to normal. Even with the sheet up, she is back to sitting in her condo near the door. But Sherry Spice is hanging out in an area where Cilla can't see her unless Sherry Spice goes for food, water or her box, and doesn't seem hesitant to do that.

Sherry-Spice comes to the door when she wants to come out into the common area.

So far, not much interaction, and no fat tail from Cilla - but then she hasn't seen Sherry-Spice too much.

Thank you for your kind words, and for all your support, this has been a huge help to me.

I am assuming just stay status-quo for now and see what happens in the next few days?

 

[calicosrspecial]

This is good to hear that they are mostly back to normal now especially Cilla. Cilla is the one I worry most about as well. Cilla was very stressed. Let's give her a few days to de-stress more. It is a good sign that Cilla is back in her condo by the door.

Good to hear Sherry Spice is doing well. It is understandable she is avoiding Cilla a little. GREAT that she wanted to come into the common area. And that she is not hesitating to eat, use her litter, etc. She couldn't be too scared. I would like her to hang out where she normally does though. But let's give it a little time. Depending on how she is doing you may want to play with her in the next day or two. I want her to regain her confidence but it sounds like it is still pretty good.

You are exactly right, let's keep things where we are at right now. Let them get back to normal and then slowly start again. I don't want to rush things especially for Cilla. I am not too worried given the bounce back. Cilla actually bounced back better than I expected which is really nice to hear.

You are very welcome, I am happy to help. We will get there. All this information is very helpful, it tells us a lot about where we are and how we should proceed.

Please let me know how things are going and we'll then continue to move forward from there.

 

[calicosrspecial]

I just wanted to check in and see how things are going. I hope things are going good.

 

[elainerov]

Sorry so long to reply. I no longer get emails of any posts.
Things have not been great. Sherry-Spice doesn't really want to come out into the common area. She mostly stays in a location in her area where she cannot been seen by Cilla. I am now trying to do 10-15 minutes a day and locking her into the hallway area, with me, when Cilla is at the gate so they can see each other. Sherry-Spice seems a bit distressed by this, but seems to calm when I talk to them. I move the tall tower into the hallway so Sherry-Spice can be high. Today one (or both) attacked at the closed door. (I don't use the door much, unless we are going in and out of the area). Cilla does go to the gate looking for Sherry-Spice. On occasion she meows in a questioning manner, as though calling Sherry-Spice. Sherry-Spice does not respond. I am very discouraged. I will keep checking in for your response.

 

[calicosrspecial]

Please do not apologize.

Did anything change? Sherry Spice seemed to be doing ok before but this sounds worse then before.

Is Sherry Spice still playing? How is she walking around? Low to the ground?

I think for now we should have the cat tree more in Sherry Spice's room but in sight of the doorway (but a way away if possible). Just so we get a buffer to let Sherry Spice know she is not at risk. Then as she gets more confident to move it closer.

It sounds like Cilla is doing better relative to Sherry Spice. Is that correct?

Just let Sherry Spice build her confidence back up. Go at her pace and just build confidence. We need to get her back to owning her territory and walking confidently before asking her to get closer to Cilla.

How is Cilla's body language when she is at the gate looking for Sherry Spice?

I honestly did not expect this. Anything more you can tell me could be helpful. I am really surprised Sherry Spice is acting like this. We need to get Sherry Spice in a more confident place but trying to reintroduce her to Cilla. I am glad that Cilla seems to be doing better.

Hang in there. Try to stay as positive as possible because the cats do pick up on emotions.

 

[elainerov]

Sherry-Spices tower in as far away from the gates I can get it, with her still seeing (or being seen). Today, for the first time I was able to feed her near the gate. She definitely has her "line". About 3 feet is as close as she will go to eat. (It was right at the gate before. She is playful in her "play room". She doesn't seem to use the tower too much. What I learned of Sherry Spice, is she gets bored quickly with things. I've learned to swap out her toys and things she likes to keep her interest.

When they had their spat through the gate the other day. Both had fat tails. It's the first time I have seen a fat tail on Sherry-Spice. When I open the gates for Sherry Spice to come out (Cilla is safely away) Sherry Spice just sits at the doorway and is reluctant to come out. Last night I was able to get her out, after ALOT of coaxing. Once she is out and I played with her, she seems fine.
Cilla is more just looking through the gates. I'm not seeing aggressiveness from her. No fat tail, just as if she is looking for Sherry-Spice. Even when she does see her, I'm not seeing aggression from Cilla.

Yes, it seems Cilla is doing better than Sherry-Spice.

I have now started them both back on Zylkene (recommended by my vet) with the hopes of them both calming down a bit. Added to that, not sure I mentioned, Sherry-Spice teeters on Upper Respiratory Problems which definitely acts up when she is stressed.

I don't know of anything else that prompted this backwards turn, maybe through the door when I have been out. But I wouldn't think so. They just seem to sleep when I am out (as best I know).

I hope I have been able to give you a bit more insight. I'm trying my best to be calm and reassuring to both of them.

 

[calicosrspecial]

Great on the tower location. Let's keep it there for now.

If 3 feet is where she will eat then feed there. And move maybe an inch or two closer each day.

GREAT that she is still playful. If there is one most important thing it is play in my mind. Keep swapping toys, make sure you make the toy act like prey. Like a mouse or a bird. Make it move then stop, move it into hiding and pop it out (around corners). Just like how a mouse would act. Get Sherry Spice to stalk.hunt, pounce. Then repeat. PLEASE ask you vet how much play you can do with her respiratory condition.

Is Sherry Spice hiding under anything at all now?

GREAT that Sherry Spice did come out and played. Fantastic. Please keep that up. Make sure it is as positive as possible. We need to get her confidence back up.

I am glad Cilla is coming around (or at least it sounds like it except for the fat tail incident). Cilla was definitely the more difficult cat in my opinion.

Let's really watch Sherry Spice's stress given her respiratory situation. When a cat is ill it hurts confidence and can cause the other cat to get more aggressive. It is something we really want to watch. Was her condition flaring up before? Or is it flaring up more since the recent chase? I am wondering if this has something to do with her behavior. It is somewhat of a chicken or an egg possibly.

Sherry Spice seemed to rebound fairly well from the chase of a few weeks ago in the common area. I am trying to figure out what might have changed. I am guessing they do sleep most of the day when you are gone.

Please ask your vet if Sherry Spice can play and for how long given her respiratory condition. Let's get her back to health, de-stress her, be in a holding pattern for now. Then move forward when she is back to normal.

I am sorry this is so hard. I can definitely feel your pain.

 

[elainerov]

She has flare ups on her Upper Respiratory. It's more in her head than her chest. It definitely flares up with stress. The vet indicated it will be something we just have to deal with. She said immune system booster (I'm currently giving her Lysine, which works great). I personally think some of her problem is allergies. The vet, as you, has encouraged play and didn't give any restrictions. She has been a happy and a confident cat, but does have occasional days, I can see that she just doesn't feel great.

She gets lots of playtime. She loves feathers on a string, and loves to stalk. She loves the laser light and her very favorite is chasing strings and hiding things under paper for her to find and dig out.

It's very sad to me that she now is content to stay in her area. For quite some time she wanted to be in the common area. But maybe it's just her settling in? When we first got her, she was quite hyper and seems to have settled down a lot.

I'm only giving 1/2 a dose of Zylkene to each cat. We'll see how that goes. My experiences with Zylkene in the past have always been good.
One final observation today, she dodged to the screen door to an outside daily visitor cat. Not necessarily attack mode, but usually she just sits at the screen door and watches the visitors.

Yes Cilla still seems interested and more curious than anything for the most part.

 

[calicosrspecial]

So great that she can play and loves to play. Play is incredibly important. It really builds confidence.

I know, I would like her to want to go into the common area as well. We'll have to slowly keep trying. I wonder if Sherry Spice thinks "that is Cilla's territory so I will respect it". Once she is less stressed we should try to expand her territory. I am guessing she has settled down because she is feeling more secure.

Do you know if the visitor cat is neutered or spayed? The cat could be causing some issues/stress. Or others. Odd that her behavior changed towards the outside visitor. Do you have a black light? If so, you may want to check if any cat is marking out there.

On a scale of 1-10 10 being perfectly happy and confident where do you think Sherry Spice is now vs before the chase in the common area and where do you think Cilla is?

How often did she have flare-ups before?

Let's try to keep her as stress free as possible and move forward when appropriate. Hang in there, I know this is difficult.

 

[elainerov]

So today, after working a lot with her. She "asked" to come into the common area. She's been out in common area. And acting her normal happy, curious self.

Her flare-ups are almost all the time to one degree or another. (Especially when she wakes in the morning). She's had them since I got her. But, her past was shaky as much as I know. She was in the shelter for 6 weeks, adopted twice and returned. The shelter told me she was "aggressive" to humans, but was not the case from the minute I saw her at the shelter, and never aggressive since I've had her. Including 4 or 5 trips to the vets. My suspicion is she was just frightened at the shelter in a tiny little cage. (and hours from being euthanized). Given all that, she has made a pretty amazing adjustment.

Also today she ate about a foot from the gate, with Cillas nose pressed against the gate - no issues.

AND -- just looking at the screen door at outside visitors.

So, today, on a scale I'd say she is an 8. And am hoping for continuing this new pattern.

Cilla still goes to the gate, and seems more interested than aggressive. I've been concerned she would just give up, but, at least, not yet.

The outside cats are all fixed, flead, tested & vaccinated. Even the ferals, we (the neighbors ) are very active with being sure all the cats are cared for.

 

[calicosrspecial]

WOW!!! Thank you so much for saving Sherry Spice!! It is sad that such a nice cat can be so close to being euthanized.

This update sounds TERRIFIC!! Eating close with Cilla there, wanting to come out to the common area. Your working with her is the reason for her improvement. GREAT JOB!!!

Just try to make every encounter as positive as possible. Even if it is just for a short time. We can always expand on the time. Let's try to keep building on these positives. You may want to consider adding some scratching posts and beds so Sherry Spice can get her scent on them. Then we can use these items to expand her territory into the common area. So she feels more ownership there.

Just keep playing, building her confidence, and trying to make every encounter with Cilla as positive as possible (and vice versa).

I can't figure out why Sherry Spice got into a funk but I am so glad she is now rebounding.

Thank you SO MUCH for all you are doing. You truly are amazing!! Please keep up the great work.

 

[elainerov]

Just a quick update. Sherry-Spice and Cilla have spent a few minutes with just one gate up, in my presence, so they can see each other without looking through just the holes in the gates. They have been about a foot on each side of the gate and just looking at each other. Sherry-Spice seems to look away rather than just staring, but doesn't leave. She also has been just watching the 2 cats outside. Just curious, no aggression. I'm still trying to figure out how to have them without gates, the more I see of 1 gate and just looking, the more I'm thinking maybe that will be the answer; to eventually open the gate under my supervision, at least for a minute or so. What do you think?

 

[calicosrspecial]

That is great!! The more they are together without incident the better it will be. We want them to know that the other doesn't want to fight or be aggressive. When they feel safe then they are less likely to chase/attack etc.

Yes, the next step at the appropriate time is to have them together under supervision with no barrier BUT we need to keep them distracted even if it is for a very short time. Think about how Cilla could be distracted. Sherry Spice should be pretty easy to distract. We usually do it with play. The fact Cilla doesn't play makes it a bit more difficult. We want to make sure that the probability of no event is high when we do this (even if it is for a 30 seconds). We want them to be like "hey, I know that cat is here but they don't mean any harm". Then we slowly increase the time. I am guessing we are going to use food with Cilla. But i want to hear what you think. But we want to keep it positive and avoid any negatives (chase, swatting, hissing, etc) if at all possible.

For now with the 1 gate up see if you can distract Cilla. Get her to break the look at Sherry Spice. It is GREAT that Sherry Spice looks away. That is what we want because cats take their eyes off something when they don't fear that something. So see if you can get Cilla to break the focus on Sherry Spice.

We want to keep making their interactions as positive as possible. Just like you are doing. Because those positives build and ease both cats.

I am trying to think of the best place for the face to face introductions. We want the place to be with a lot of escape points but also a good place to distract and also where both cats seem confident and comfortable.

So let's get Cilla to break the focus on Sherry Spice for a few days before we take down the gate for a few minutes.

Do you think if you played with Sherry Spice in her room and the gate was down would Cilla charge into the room or would Sherry Spice charge Cilla if Cilla stayed outside the hall?

We are really close. Soon we need to get them together with no incident. Building on the time they are together without incident.

Keep up the great work.