I NEED HELP WITH INTRODUCTIONS

[elainerov]

I need help with introductions.

I have a resident cat, Cilla, that was adopted at 3 months, feral. She lived merrily with 4 friends, for 12 years, also all born feral. We lost 4 cats in 3 years. When Cilla (a Siamese) lost her last best friend, she went into severe depression. She has never bonded with us, though she has always been completely inside. 3 months after the loss of our beloved (and Cillas) Presley, we adopted a 6 yr old female Tortie from the shelter. We call her Sherry-Spice. She is very sweet. However, we have not been able to get Cilla and Sherry-Spice together. They are also separated by baby gates or a glass door. I've tried everything I have read about introductions, etc. The problem is I can't touch Cilla, she doesn't play and doesn't eat "treats". I've tried feliway (which seemed to make her more aggressive). I currently have both of them on Zylkene, which does seem to calm them. I switch baby gates around, so each one has a chance to be out in the common areas of our home, and get a chance to mix smells. So far, everytime they see each other Cillas tail get huge and tries to attack. Sherry-Spice screams in fear. The few times I have tried putting them together, Cilla immediately attacked Sherry-Spice. I am afraid, because if Cilla gets hurt, I can never get her in a carrier to the vet, or get close enough to her to treat an injury.

I've had cats all my life and never had this much of an issue getting cats together.

Any advise would be appreciated.

 

[2Cats4everLoved]

Awww, I'm sorry your babies aren't getting along.  That's a terrible feeling.  My two had a tough time, but eventually came to grips with coexisting.

I don't have answered for you, but I'm sure someone will chime in with great advice.

Welcome to TCS.  I hope things change for you soon.

 

[calicosrspecial]

Hi,

I am sorry to hear about your situation. Hopefully I can help a little.

I have found that two things really help in introducing cats. Increasing the confidence of the cats as I believe a confident cat is less likely to feel threatened and attack or to be attacked and  associating the other cat with good things especially food.  Once the cat feels like the other is not a threat they tend to get along.

So I would start feeding on each side of your baby gates. Start a good distance apart and slowly move them closer. You may have to block the sight at first. Start with the scent. Then move to sight with the barrier in place.

Do you have cat trees in the common area? You may want to add one or two if possible. Height builds confidence. Just make sure the tree is away from the gates,

I would also add a cat tree or two and cat scratchers in other parts of Cilla's area. We want her to own as much as possible.

Cats can take on our emotions so please be as calm and confident around them as possible.

I would also work to build Sherry Spice's confidence. We build confidence through play, food, height and love. Play with Sherry Spice and after play feed either treats or a meal. Give her places to go high like a good cat tree. And let her know she is loved and wanted (if you can get her to purr without putting yourself at risk of being hurt that could be helpful). The more confident Sherry Spice is the more helpful it will be down the road. She'll be less likely to attack and less likely to be attacked because she will be confident.

I have found that the existing cat is always the hardest to adjust. It is their territory and another cat is coming into it. It is scary so they feel the need to defend. Add to that the loss Cilla has endured and it will take time. All we can use is food and height so we will have to maximize the impact of those. I use warm chicken thigh meat (no bone) to build trust and a bond. 

Given the loss it will take time but please try what we mentioned above. Let's see how she responds. Just take it slow and ease Cilla into the transition.

I am here for you as long as needed. Hopefully we can get them together. But I believe it will take some time. I am here for you as long as needed. Please ask anything anytime.

 

[elainerov]

Thank you for your response.

I do have cat trees in both areas.

Sherry-Spice is a happy, playful and loving cat. No problems with her at all. She gets lots of attention and I am even sleeping in her area of the house. She is a sucker for treats, and I have been able to give her those at the gates.

Cilla, does not respond to toys or treats. She will not eat any people food, including dark chicken meat. The closest I have gotten her to eat at the baby gates is about 4 feet. Cilla has trees, condos, beds and scratch posts throughout the house, but mostly sleeps on a towel on the back of the couch.

I would like to try putting them together under supervision, with pillow in hand, but I have not been able to do that when Sherry-Spice is aware of Cilla. The few times I tried it, because Sherry-Spice was unaware, Cilla was able to sneak up on her and dive on her. Yet I'm not sure, when they are face to face at the baby gates, to open them is a good thing either. That seems to be asking for a fight.

Everyday, several times a day,  I pet and talk to Cilla, mostly she hates it and I get a hiss. I am very cautious, as I have been bitten and had infections several times by cats, and know how bad it can be.

It's sad that she doesn't trust me after 12 years.

I work from home, so I am home a lot, and they do get a lot of attention.

However, today, I did see them both at the gates, about 2 feet away from each other, with no hissing, no growling and no "fat tails". Is this a little progress? Would these moments be a time to remove the gates between them? or is it too soon yet?

Of course, I don't want them or me to get hurt.....

 

[elainerov]

PS, it's been 4 months!

 

[jennyr]

It is a difficult problem, because the behavior is now entrenched in both of them. Some cats just never learn to get along. The only thing I can think of at the moment is to separate them again completely. Give up trying to get them together for awhile, it is obviously very stressful for all of you. Get both of them really happy and confident in their own areas, without sight of each other. Do this for at least a month and then very slowly try new introductions from scratch. I am afraid there is no quick fix - something has gone wrong somewhere along the line and they just cannot let go of their feelings.
Good luck

 

[calicosrspecial]

Cilla is a bit tricky because of the fact she doesn't really respond to play or food etc. BUT she loved cats in the past which should be very helpful. The loss of her loved ones does cause us to be patient.

GREAT that you have cat trees, that is very helpful. Hopefully Cilla uses those and if not now in time. Going high builds confidence.

I think it is too early to try to put them together again. We need to just take our time, 4 months is not long in ideal conditions and given whaat Cilla has gone through it really is no time at all.

I would lean towards Jenny's thinking BUT I read that they were two feet from each other by the gate and no hissing etc. I would say that is progress. There are always ups and downs but I think we should work off that. The more they are together without an incident the more confident and comfortable they both will be.

Given what you wrote I don't want you to try to pet Cilla. Just sit by her, calm and confidently, and just let her be there. If she wants to initiate contact then great but I would not initiate contact with her. Some cats are just not human lovers for whatever reason. The fact Cilla did love other cats is great and should be very helpful in due time. She is still mourning I am sure given the incredible losses she has suffered.

I am sure Cilla trusts you. She is just a cat cat not a human cat.

Keep feeding on each side of the gate at the 4 feet or so. Maybe every few days move it an inch closer.

Please keep building Sherry Spice's confidence (play, food, height and if possible love).

Hang in there, given all Cilla has been through it will take time. I will be with you every step of the way. We'll see how things go, there will be ups and downs but with time and effort I think they will get along most likely given Cilla loved the other cats.

Please feel free to ask anything anytime.

 

[elainerov]

You've given me more understanding about Cilla. She definitely responds to me when I talk to her. Last night, with supervision, only 1 baby gate up and each of them were about 2 feet on each side of the gate. No hissing, no fat tails. Maybe a baby step.

I would like to open the gates for a little while, under supervision, but I'm not sure when is appropriate. If I let Sherry-Spice out, she seems to be oblivious that Cilla is around, which enables Cilla a "sneak attack". But I'm not certain opening the gates when they are 2 or so feet away from each other and staring at each other.

Any thoughts on this?

 

[calicosrspecial]

I would just take it very slow. There are always steps forward and steps back. The key is to "de-sensitize" them to each other so they don't fear an attack or fear for their safety. The more times they are near each other with no incident the more they will trust and when we do get them together they will be like "oh, I know that cat, that cat is cool, no threat". Cats attack because they are afraid. If they don't fear and are confident they are less likely to attack.

Just take it slowly and try to make small positives and build on those.

I personally wouldn't let them together for a while. Let's see how things go and build on those positive encounters. Then re-evaluate somewhere down the road. The investment in time will save us time down the road. 

The fact Sherry Spice is oblivious is actually a good thing, less threatening to Cilla. That will help us.

At some point we'll want to do some scent swapping. To help Cilla get used to Sherry Spice's scent in CIlla's territory. But let's wait on that for now.

Cilla is tricky because we can't use all the tools we usually use. BUT she likes other cats which is GREAT. But she needs to be eased in given everything. 

I am confident things are going to work out, there are a lot of positives but we do have work to do. Just take it slowly. I will be with you every step of the way for as long as needed. Anytime they can smell each other or see each other and there is no incident it is a positive. The more positives the better it will be when we get them together again.

Keep up the good work and please feel free to ask anything.

 

[elainerov]

I have been swapping scents with blankets and allowing them to swap spaces. Each rubs on the others things - I'm assuming they are doing their own scent marking. I started doing this shortly after Sherry-Spice came into my home.

It makes sense what you say, slow and easy. Better than a fight and going backwards.

I will continue with the single gate and interaction and see how we progress.

Again, thank you. Making me calmer and realizing the positive, I know is very important for them.

 

[calicosrspecial]

Great. I think you are on a good path. Just go at their pace. 

You are very welcome. I think we have a good plan. We'll see how things progress and change if needed.

You are doing a very good job, hang in there, we'll see results down the road. Keep up the good work and feel free to ask anything anytime.

 

[elainerov]

I was hoping there has been progress. Cilla for the last few days has been at the gate, putting her front paw under the gate a bit, but laying down on her side. No noise from either side.  I'm thinking she is showing submission. I'm still swapping areas. Yesterday Cilla jumped the gate when she was in another area and they met unexpectedly to all of us. There was hissing and growling and fat tails. Sherry-Spice went to run and Cilla started after her. There was no contact, as I was right there. I clapped my hands and both took off in separate directions.

Has this incident made things go backwards? Any thoughts on this?

 

[calicosrspecial]

Very good that Cilla was laying on her side a the gate. We need to keep up those positive encounters.

How did they act after the chase? Did they hide? Avoid areas? Or were they resilient acting normal?

This chase situation isn't a big setback. It just tells us that they are not ready yet. We want to keep them separated still and feed on each side of that door or gate (so long as they can't jump it). If tehy do start focusing on the other cat then try to distract with play or food or calling their name etc. Anything to avoid any negativity. 

Please keep working on building their confidence. Play, food, height and love ( as long as you are not at risk of being hurt in anyway). Good eye kisses (closing your eyes for 4 seconds or so to the cat) are helpful. Builds trust.

Sherry Spice acted like prey (running away) so Cilla was in pursuit mode. Like chasing a rabbit or something.

Please keep up what you are doing. It sounds like you are making progress with Cilla on her side by the gate. That is great. Just keep on building on these positive encounters and if we are on the brink of a negative try to distract.

Hang in there, I think you are doing a great job. Please ask anything anytime. We are here for you. I am very confident your cats will get along eventually. 

 

[elainerov]

2 more weeks have gone by. The baby gates are getting pretty tiring to the family. It's been over 6 months now.

Cilla plays at the gate, and she's never really played a lot. And she sits on top of, or in the hole of the 2 story "condo" I have about a foot away from the gate. She also sits at the gate a lot waiting to see Sherry-Spice.

Here's the problem, unless Sherry-Spice is in the hallway of her "area" they don't see each other. When they do see each other, they just sit and stare at each other. Everyday, I've been locking Sherry Spice in the hallway so they have to see each other. I am in the hallway with her. She seems a bit uncomfortable.

Also when Sherry-Spice is out of her area and allowed access through the house, I have Cilla in another room behind gates. So Sherry-Spice is totally unaware of Cilla.

How do I make the next step? I've been trying to leave a space under the baby gate so they can reach paws through. Sherry-Spice will reach under the gate to get a toy or a yummy. Cilla sees and she is close by (a foot or so) and does nothing, however I am supervising at the gate.

 

[calicosrspecial]

Sounds good.

It is ok if they don't always see each other. The key is they know the other one is there and don't fear or feel worried. The key is to let them know they are not at risk of being hurt.

Try to bring Sherry Spice out in the hallway with food/treats or with play. We want to encourage them to do things on their own so it is as positive of an experience as possible.

If they are staring at each other try to give the treats to distract and to associate each other with good things.

Keep playing with them in their areas. After play feed treats or a meal.

When you do the site swapping are you playing with them in the new area? We want them to build their confidence in the new area and play is the best way to do it.

I really like what I am reading.

How is Sherry Spice when she is allowed in the other area? Tail high? Walking confidently? Sherry Spice can smell Cilla so she is aware Cilla is there.So if she is walking around confidently that is a good sign. but we want to play with her in Cilla's area so Sherry Spice builds confidence in the new territory.

How is Cilla acting when she is waiting to see Sherry Spice? Calm? No tail movement?

I would like you to distract with food or something if they are staring. Again we want to associate the other cat with something good (food) and to let the other cat know there is no threat.

I would like to understand the situation a little bit better but I think we are very close to getting them together. We just want to maximize the positive encounters and minimize the negative encounters. So when they meet they are like "yeah, I know that cat, that cat is cool". 

You are doing a great job!! Let me know how you feel where you are at and how they would react to each other.

 

[elainerov]

When Sherry Spice is out in the common area. She is VERY confident. Tail up, happy, plays and sleeps on a chair with her head and feet hanging off the edge of the chair.

They stare at each other, but I'm not seeing any aggression.

The problem is, Cilla will not play with me (she plays on her own at the gate at times). She will not eat ANY treats... even any tuna, from or near me. She does eat her wet food about a foot from the gate. Cilla does not interact with me, I can pet her at times, if she is asleep, but that's it.

Cilla seems calm when she sees Sherry Spice.

Mostly what I see is Sherry-Spice being a bit fearful. But not to the point of running and hiding, just apprehensive.

Oddly, when Sherry-Spice is in the common area, there are several cats outside, that come for daily visits, that she looks at (through a screen door) and doesn't seem to be fearful, just curious.

If Cilla is at the gate, or near the gate, if I come close she runs... again, though she has been with us (and 4 other cats) for 13 years, she was born feral (I rescued her at about 3 months) she never really interacted with us (people) only with the other cats. Everyone was happy and I let them be.

About 2 weeks ago, we had an incident were Sherry-Spice was let out accidently. She was startled by Cillas presence (not used to her being around when she is in the common area).  She went to run to her "safe area", and Cilla chased her. I realize Sherry-Spice became prey, I don't believe there was any contact, just a chase and then I intercepted.

What would you think of opening the gate a bit when they are both at the gates? My thinking is that both would be aware the other is present.

Another thought I had was maybe putting a bed near the gate on either side to see if they sleep near it. Not sure, because Sherry-Spice likes to be high. Her cat tower, or the bed, or a shelf where she can look out the window. I have put a 2 tier tower on Sherry-Spices side of the gate, near the gate, but mostly she hides behind it and peaks out a Cilla.

I'm just trying to come up with something that might gives us a bit of "forward motion".

 

[calicosrspecial]

GREAT that Sherry Spice is confident outside of her area. That is very helpful.

Good to hear not aggression with the staring. If there is a way to distract Cilla it would be helpful.

The resident cat is usually the cat that needs the most work because it is their territory being "invaded". The fact Cilla doesn't really play or eat treats makes it a little more difficult but not impossible. So we have to let Cilla know that Sherry Spice is not a threat. Please keep feeding her wet food by the gate and if you can get a bed by the gate that could be helpful. We want to get as many times near each other without incident as possible.

Please keep working on building Sherry Spice's confidence. Play then treats or food. In her area and in Cilla's area during the site swapping.

Distracting Cilla (if possible) should help ease the apprehension by Sherry Spice. Distracting might be hard though without play or treats. But try what you can.

Do you think Cilla runs from the gate because she is up to mischief or because she is not all that interested in human interaction? I know it is a tough call.

How were they at the gate 2 weeks ago before the chasing incident? Are they better today? How do you think Sherry Spice would react today if she saw Cilla in the common area? Is Sherry more confident today than 2 weeks ago?

How did Sherry Spice act after the chase? How did Cilla act after the chase? Resilient like nothing happened or skittish and hiding etc?

I really like the idea of putting beds on each side of the gate. And seeing how they react.

I am not sure yet to open the gate, I think we are close but I would like to see how they react with the beds. If they sleep next to each other on the beds it would be wonderful. But we'll see.

I would like to see Sherry Spice get up in the 2 tier tower by the gate. If you move it by the window will she go on it there? Then we can get her scent on it and move it towards the gate.

Has Cilla been allowed to go into Sherry Spice's area yet? I would like to see how she reacts in there (with Sherry Spice in another area). Are you doing any scent swapping? Getting Cilla's scent on an old shirt and putting it by the window so Sherry Spice can be by it while enjoying the scenery? And vice versa? Getting Sherry Spice's scent on an old shirt and putting it where Cilla feels safe, secure and comfortable?

I tend to be a bit more cautious on face to face introductions as I try to maximize the positive encounters (no chasing etc) and minimize the negative encounters (chasing).

I think you are really close. I just want to make sure we are at the point to get them face to face. I would like to understand your ability to distract Cilla if needed. how did you break up the chase 2 weeks ago?

How is Cilla acting generally? Is she mourning less? Is she walking around more confidently? Going everywhere? The fact she went through loss has made it more difficult. That is why I want to be a bit more cautious to make sure she is ready. I would like to hear how they were acting before the 2 week ago chase vs now.

Hang in there, I am feeling good about where we are. I know it is frustrating and challenging but you really are doing a great job. Cilla's situation is more challenging but you are doing a great job.

 

[elainerov]

After the chase incident, neither seemed too bothered. Initially Sherry-Spice ran under the bed, with Cilla behind her. I clapped my hands and it immediately diffused it. Sherry-Spice came out from under the bed as soon as I secured the gates and told her it was ok. She never seemed skittish afterward - as though it was no big deal to either of them.

Cilla runs from the gate only when I get too close, she just sits at the gate, waiting to see Sherry-Spice, and sometimes stands up on it, but I think stretching to try to see Sherry-Spice.

I have put Cilla in Sherry-Spices area -- she rubs her scent all over the place, rolls on the carpet, on the bed, etc. It doesn't seem to bother Sherry-Spice when she returns.

It seems as though Cilla wants to be friends (she's spent her whole life with other cats). The only time I see any aggression is if the glass door is closed. Then they will argue through the door. Best I can tell, as I have to sneak up on it, Cilla puts her front paws up on the glass, again, I think only trying to see Sherry-Spice and I think Sherry-Spice sees that as aggression. Then Sherry-Spice growls. And sometimes I see them both standing up on the glass door, more scratching at each other, no screaming, but fat tails. I only have the door closed if I am not at home, to be sure they are safe and during the night - otherwise it's strictly the gates.

I will go get a bed today for Sherry-Spice and see what happens. She has abandoned her blanket on the she used to sleep on since she got here. (I think she is feeling much more secure) and now opts for the people bed or her high tower. I will try to entice her on the 2 tier condo with treats (she's not affected by catnip).

I feel bad keeping Sherry-Spice "locked up". She sometimes cries at the gate. She so much wants to be out and with us. She gets about 3 or 4 hours out with us and we spend as much time with her during the day on "her side" as I can. And I am sleeping with her (we are a house divided). She is just a happy, happy cat, she plays a lot and I don't think she got much affection before, she is loving it now.. and now puts her cheek out for kisses. . She adjusted quickly to her new home, and is very attached to me. And I'm wanting to move forward, so we can all be together.

 

[calicosrspecial]

That is really good. The way they act after a dust up is very important.

Does she sit at the gate calmly? No tail swishing? No anxiety?

The rubbing if a lot might suggest a little insecurity as it is her way of saying "I am here, I am relevant". Has the scent marking decreased over the past few weeks or about the same amount?

Hmmm on the glass. Is that still happening? I don't like the fat tails. Does this happen every time the glass door is closed?

I love that Sherry Spice goes high in the world. I am interested to see if she'll sleep by the gate (it will not happen right away). Yes, please entice her on the 2 tier with treats.

How high is your gate between them? Can Cilla jump it if she wants to?

Please do not feel badly for Sherry Spice. We have to do this. Cats are more resilient and she must be loving life in her new great home. But it is great that she wants out. She must know Cilla is around and she still wants out. That is good. I love that she is really warming up. A happy confident cat is more likely to accept and be accepted.

Cilla is the key. If we feel like Cilla is more comfortable then we can get them together. I am not sure we are there just yet but I feel like we are close. We don't want a big setback so we want to be a bit cautious.

Do you feel like you can distract Cilla if need be? Your clap from 2 weeks ago is a good sign.

How exactly did that encounter 2 weeks ago go? Did Cilla immediately go after her at first sight? Or did Cilla just chase after Sherry Spice took off? What was Cilla's body language? Big tail? Ears back? Growling? If possible I would like to understand that situation more. 

Given the history Cilla has (getting along with cats) and the fact Sherry Spice is a good cat and seems resilient I am HIGHLY confident they will get along. I think we are probably at most a month away. I think we are very close. Hang in there.

 

[elainerov]

I have 3 gates stacked in a doorway. There is still a foot at the top, and though it hasn't happened lately, each at different times did climb over. That's why I installed the door and thought I was doing the right thing by putting a glass door in. (it was expensive to do).

Of course I don't know what they do when I am not home with the door closed, but my thinking is they just sleep. The squabbles at the door is almost every night. -- but I'm wondering, even though Cilla is not close to me, she might be jealous that I am in there with Sherry-Spice????

Cilla sits calmly at the gate. No tail swishing, doesn't seem aggressive in any way. It's like she's just waiting to see Sherry-Spice.

It's pretty easy to get Cilla away or distract by just my presence. When I first tried a short interaction, they did mix it up, but there was no fur or rolling in a ball. I was able to easily distract by tossing a pillow. That was back the first week I got Sherry-Spice.

I was not in the room  when they actually encountered each other on this last time,  But I did not hear hissing or growling (I was in the next room) and Cilla easily left when I clapped. I'm suspecting they were both surprised at each other presence. The only thing I heard was Sherry-Spice yelling, more like scared as she was running to her safe area and under the bed. I've heard her do that with the door closed, when I know she is safe, so I'm assuming it's a fear cry. But I haven't heard her do that for awhile through the glass door.

Even through the door, I do not see ears back, or raised hair. Just fat tails (mostly Cilla) And it's not like an attack through the door, almost like they are each scratching on the door at each other. Even Sherry-Spices growls seem to have subsided.

That's the thing, I'm not sure Sherry-Spice is always aware of Cilla. Sherry-Spice is pretty care free and used to being safe when she is in the common area. Even though I know she smells her.

Also, I keep moving Cillas 2 tier condo closer to the gates, it's very close now, maybe a foot or less away. Still they just stare at each other. Sometimes fall asleep because they've been staring so long at each other.

I will continue with trying to distract Cilla, and I try to give her as much attention as she will tolerate. She does like to be talked to (and will answer me), as long as I keep what she thinks is a safe distance.