I NEED HELP WITH INTRODUCTIONS

[calicosrspecial]

They climbed over the gates at times? Was it the 3 gates at that time? What happened after they climbed over? How did they interact?

The squabbles happen every night? But only when the glass door is closed? Do the squabbles happen even when you are not in the room but the door is closed?

Did Cilla ever spend a lot of time in that room before?

I am trying to understand why the reaction with the door (and not the gate) and why Cilla wants to get in at night (it could be envy).

GREAT that Cilla sits at the gate calmly with no tail swishing. No aggression. Huge positive but I am trying to reconcile it with the behavior with the door.

GREAT that Cilla can be distracted. We would like to distract with something good (food, play) but Cilla is a bit different so any distraction is good when needed. Any time we avert a negative encounter it is a positive.

Yes, that sound is fear. We would like her to be more confident in that area so she doesn't act like prey. I truly believe a confident cat is less likely to attack or be attacked. It is good that she was resilient after that recent chase.

Cilla's tail is still fat now? It is only with the glass door, correct?

How much time does Cilla spend in front of the gate?

I don't like that they are staring so much. Is it a staring that suggests "hey, come out and hang out with me" or s it a staring like "don't even think about coming into my territory"? I do like that they can fall asleep with teh other one there staring though.

What is your sense of where they are at? 

 

[elainerov]

I don't mean to laugh.... but your reaction to them climbing 3 gates, strikes me funny. Believe me, I couldn't believe it either when it happened!

When I first brought Sherry-Spice home, I had 2 gates, she climbed over to meet Cilla on the other end, she yelled and climbed back on her side. Then I added a 3rd gate, and yes she climbed the 3 gates, again to meet with Cilla (whose tail was fat and MAYBE ready to strike) at the bottom, Sherry-Spice yelled and climbed back over to her side. Hence I installed the door, so I knew they would be safe when I wasn't home. Sherry-Spice learned, she doesn't even think about venturing out unless all gates are removed.

Yes Cilla did take to that room when she was in her depression of losing her mate. But other than that period, she never went in there.

I can't figure out the door thing either.  At the advice of my vet, the door is only closed when I am not home now, or at night.

Cilla spends much of her awake time at the gate. She's getting older and sleeps more. It's what makes me think she really wants company.

I don't see a fat tail when Cilla goes to the door. But she does stand on the glass, still thinking it's more looking to see Sherry-Spice when she's not in the hallway where she can be seen. Then, I'm thinking Sherry-Spice sees this as a threat as Cilla is big (tall) then standing up, Sherry-Spice will growl and go at the door, that's when Cillas tail gets big. Maybe, they both know they are safe behind the glass, it's like they are both scratching at the door that an actual attack thing. It almost looks like a "patty cake" but Cillas tail gets fat. I've never seen Sherry-Spices tail fat, or ears back.... nor do I see that Sherry-Spice shows any fear afterwards, but I would say cautious, more than fear. I never see any cowering or hiding, but she will back away from the door, maybe 3 or 4 feet.

However, I'm seeing less and less growling on Sherry-Spices part. So I feel like there are some strides.

As for the staring, I see no aggression on either side. So I've just let them do that. I'm not sure that's the right thing, but because I don't see any agitation I thought maybe good for them to just continue to see each other and get used to each other.

Tonight I will leave just the gates up instead of the door and see what happens.

Am I doing the right thing by locking Cilla behind gates, so Sherry-Spice has her time in the common area? If she is asleep in the master bedroom, I will lock her in. Sometimes also if she is in the family room I will put the gates up there. Those are mostly her 2 areas she likes. I check on her a lot and if she seems agitated I put Sherry Spice away and let Cilla out. But for the most part, she just sleeps (of course with food, water and a box available.

Cilla keeps her distance from us (in other rooms) but Sherry-Spice is always very close to me, I do see her gaining more and more confidence as she is out. She used to run in her room if I told her things she can't do, (being on the table, for example) but now, she just complies and doesn't run away. I don't know her history, but I do think she got yelled at a lot, but not hit.... I never yell at her... and never use a water bottle. She's learning!

One last thing, they are both approximately the same size (both about 10 lbs). Cilla is a small Siamese, Sherry-Spice is a small Tortie.

 

[calicosrspecial]

Wow. So only Sherry Spice climbed the gates? Cilla has not climbed them ever?

I understand why you added the door.

But Cilla has never hurt Sherry Spice? Sherry Spice cried and ran back but Cilla never actually fought with her, correct?

Ok, Cilla used that room during her mourning period. Did she stop using that room before Sherry Spice came? Cats do not like territory being taken away so that may be why Cilla is by that room so much.

Depending on the answers above I am wondering if we need to close that door.

It very well could be a misunderstanding at the door. I would chalk that up as a negative encounter so I am trying to figure out how to reduce those incidences. We want to maximize positive encounters and minimize anything that can be construed as negative. That is why I am thinking about just the gate(s) and not the door. It would depend on whether Cilla climbs the gate(s). I don't like that Cilla's tail does still get fat. I do like that Sherry Spice doesn't have much of a lingering negative effect from it.

As long as there is no aggression with the staring it is ok. Are their eyes dilated at all or can't you tell? Ideal would be no staring, just glances and "hanging out". But anytime there is no attack or no negative encounter it is a positive in building trust between the two of them.

I just got to the line about tonight leaving the gates and not closing the door. If you think Cilla will not climb the gate then I think that would be ok. Cats can move around at night so I want to be confident neither on will try to climb it. I am almost inclined to suggest taking the top gate away just to make it easier IF Sherry Spice gets out and needs to get back in. Not sure I am there yet.

I think you are doing the right thing when site swapping. We have to keep Cilla away so as long as she is not agitated and she is just sleeping or hanging out and is fine then it is good. I don't like taking territory away but in site swapping we have to UNLESS we can count on someone in another area to distract well enough to keep them occupied. But as long as Cilla is doing something she enjoys then it is fine and a positive.

Sherry Spice sounds like a great cat. She is gaining trust which is great and you are doing a great job with her. She is building her confidence, that really is the key.

Neither cat seems mean, correct? And Cilla doesn't have a history of fighting? And Cilla and Sherry Spice have never actually fought?

Cilla went through a huge loss. So it is understandable that she is having a little harder of a time adjusting. The fact neither one wanted to kill the other one tells me it will work. Just when is the question. I think we are close. I would like to try reducing the gates pretty soon (depending on your answers) and seeing how they interact. We want to take it slow and maximize the positive encounters while minimizing the negative encounters. We want them to be at a point where they know the other cat and know they are not a threat. I don't like that Cilla still gets a fat tail. I would like to see that gone. Keep trying to feed by the gate. We want to keep associating them with positive things.

I think we are going to learn a lot in the next few days.  Hang in there, you are doing a great job. 

 

[elainerov]

I hope I can answer your questions.

Yes, when I first brought Sherry Spice home (about 5 days later) they did get into it briefly. I mistakenly thought it would be ok. So there were a few not so great interactions, but only 1 30 second or less fight and both retreated, when I tossed a pillow.

Cilla was using the area when Sherry Spice came home.

Their eyes are not dilated that I can see.

At times, one or the other, or both move very slowly away from the gate - like they are in slow motion.

However, tonight I was feeding at the gate and Cilla seemed aggressive toward the gate at Sherry Spice. Sherry Spice backed away from the gate and growled. I inadvertently scared Cilla as she was so fixated she didn't even know I was there. - A step backwards....

Sometimes I feel I am close and then like, the feeding incident, I realize we are not.

Neither cat is mean (however I cannot handle her at all). And Cilla never had any incidents with her 4 buddies she was always with since she was born (born in a colony of feral then with me with her sister and brother). They behaved beautifully with my 2 residents cats (both males). The day they were all introduced, they licked each other and that was that. But she was always a bit withdrawn, more of a loner, except... with the last one we lost, Presley. They slept together in the same kitty bed all the time, mostly after the others passed away. She is never aggressive with the visiting kitties outside, just watches them.

I think Sherry Spice learned her lesson well and would not jump the gate during the night. And I am with her. I would hear that.

I do think Cilla climbed the gate once, when I had 2 gates up, but it was when she was locked in the master bedroom, she did not climb in Sherry Spices area.

 

[calicosrspecial]

Thank you, you answered the questions perfectly.

Is it possible to change the room Sherry Spice is in? I am not saying we should do it yet but just wondering.

How much time was Cilla spending in the room Sherry Spice is now in? Did Cilla spend time in there with Presley?

Moving in slow motion is very common. It is to let the other cat know that they do not mean to be a threat and so that they do not act like prey. Is the happening a lot less now? How often does this happen?

Do you know what might have happened to cause Cilla to be more aggressive last night during feeding? How exactly was she aggressive?

There is no question in my mind that Cilla is still grieving and this is causing the delay in introducing them. It is common. You are doing the right things, time is what is needed as long with the correct actions.

Did Cilla climb the gate from the master bedroom to get to Sherry Spice or she just didn't like being locked in?

I thought we were closer too. I don't like the reaction when feeding yesterday and I need to understand what might have happened. I do want to understand how much Cilla used the bedroom Sherry Spice is now in. Cats do not like territory taken away so that could be a factor in the behavior. And we are dealing with mourning. Cats do not like change and losing a loved one is very hard for them.

The good news is they are both great cats and are not fundamentally mean and they don't seem like they want to "kill" each other. So I am very hopeful. I realize the importance of making this move faster but we have to be careful not to rush.

Please get Sherry Spice's scent on an old shirt and put it near where Cilla is very comfortable sleeping or hanging out. We want to associate her scent with a secure feeling.

How do you think Sherry Spice would be if you didn't sleep in the same room with her?

We'll figure this out. I know they will get along, the question is how soon.

 

[elainerov]

If I changed Sherry-Spices room, I would then be taking away the master bedroom that Cilla sleeps in a lot. ill

Cilla used the room only AFTER Presley was gone. Then spent most of her time there or under the master bed after Presley was gone. Definitely sad and mourning.

Slow moving is frequent. When Cilla goes in the 2 tier tower near the gate, she is always in slow motion, slow to climb up and then mostly goes in the top opening, but very slowly. Both moving slowly happens frequently.

I'm not certain what happened with feeding. Sherry Spice was eating at the gate and I think Cilla lunged at her.

I think Cilla climbed the gate to just get out. She would not have been able to see Sherry Spice.

Also when Sherry Spice is out and Cilla is behind gates, she is totally unaware of the gate or never goes to the gate to see Cilla. Cilla is only locked behind the gates when she is sleeping. When I see her awake and looking at the gates, I put Sherry Spice away and let Cilla out.

Cilla has a towel that Sherry Spice has slept on in her area. Also there is a blanket that Sherry Spice used to sleep on all the time that is in the common area.

I could try not sleeping with Sherry Spice, but that keeps her alone a lot. She knows when it's "bedtime" and she runs to her area and up on the bed and waits for me. I would hate to break that routine, but if that would make Cilla feel better, I can try. What do you think?

 Cilla never sleeps on the bed with us -- never has. She sleeps in the family room alone. Before that she slept with Presley in their bed. All of Presleys beds and toys are still in the same area, but she does not go near them.

 

[calicosrspecial]

Ok. We do not want to take any territory away from Cilla.

Cilla took it very hard. It is very common. I think this is the major reason for the time the introduction is taking. 

The fact they are moving slowly tells me they fear each other still. When cats move slowly they are trying to let the other cat know they are not a threat and they know that if they move slowly they do not act like prey.

I am disappointed that Cilla lunged. Did Cilla have her food there at that time or was Sherry Spice just eating?

Ok, that is good that Sherry spice is not searching out Cilla. And Sherry Spice is calm and confident walking around the other space? Is she just smelling everything and exploring or does she seem comfortable going up on a cat tree and hanging out? Is she looking over her shoulder for Cilla at all when she is out in Cilla's space?

How does Cilla react/interact with the towel and blanket Sherry Spice has her scent on?

Sherry Spice really looks forward to sleeping with you so I don't want to risk changing that for now. I don't think (given what you have told me) that you are causing Cilla to be less accepting. So I am not sure the benefit would outweigh the risk for now.  

We want to be as consistent and least disruptive during the process.

How much time does CIlla spend by Sherry Spice's room? 

What action do you think causes the most positive association between them (thinking more for Cilla)?

I am trying to understand why at this point Cilla would lunge towards Sherry Spice while Sherry Spice wasn't even looking at her and just eating.

We need to try to reduce the number of negative encounters (pawing at each other with the glass door, lunging at the gate, growling etc). We may have to encourage Cilla to move into other areas of the house more to give each of them a bit of a break.

Please also try to distract Cilla and/or Sherry Spice in the most positive way possible if they seem too focused on each other. I know it is hard with Cilla. But if you do watch how the other one reacts.  

When you feed try to put Cilla's food down first then Sherry Spice's if you can (given the gates).

We have to ease their unease towards each other in anyway possible. The more positive encounters the more helpful they will be as they will then associate the other one (with at the least something not negative).

We'll figure this out..

 

[marypetlover]

I love all of the knowledge here!

 

[calicosrspecial]

Thank you Mary. 

When we get these two cats living together I will happily agree with you more.

I appreciate your kind words and support. 

 

[elainerov]

Cilla has only been getting short visits in Sherry Spices area. It's tough to maneuver them around - I have to lock Sherry Spice in the bathroom, to give Cilla access.

Cilla sniffed every inch of Sherry Spices blanket that I put in the master bedroom, where Cilla hangs out, and then she laid on it for a few minutes.

Sherry Spice is totally confident when she Is in the common area. Never nervous, isn't jumpy with noises (except the doorbeel) and never looks for Cilla. She plays in the common area, her tail is always straight up (usually with a little question mark) She does stick pretty close of me, but now I'm seeing her on a favorite chair sleeping with head and legs hanging over the end of the chair - I'd say she's pretty comfortable.

Cilla lunging might have been my fault, I don't think Cilla had food. Today, they ate at the gate with no issue. Cilla watches Sherry Spice eat, and when she's done, then Cilla will eat (about a foot away from the gate) Sherry spices food is at the gate, as I have to push it under the gate for her. Sherry Spice never seems to hesitate to eat. And I'm noticing Cilla looks to eat at the gate. If I put the food in her regular place, she runs near the gate, then will eat there.

2 nights the gates were up instead of the door, no incidents at all.

Sherry Spice does tire of looking at Cilla and goes to an area where Cilla can't see her (usually to a window).

As for distraction for Cilla, it doesn't take much, she runs when I get too close.

I also put a string a bit under the gate, half on one side, half on the other. Sherry-Spice will pull on it - Cilla watches but never goes for it. As I've said, Cilla, just doesn't really play - and least not in front of us, but I do see her toys moved around - so she does play when she feels safe, I guess.

 

[calicosrspecial]

And Cilla looked relaxed and acted normal with the blanket?

GREAT that Sherry Spice is so confident in the common area!!

Maybe it was a one of thing the other day with lunging. So glad they ate today with no issues. Interesting Cilla waits for Sherry Spice to eat, then eats. I LOVE to hear that she wants to eat by Sherry Spice. GREAT.

Let's keep the using the gates. Let's avoid using the door. The more we have no negative incidents the better it is.

Totally ok that Sherry Spice does her own thing.

Is there any other way to distract Cilla or does she just always run? When you put her food down does she run before you put it down then come back?

Well, I feel a lot more encouraged reading this post. 

 

[elainerov]

After several days. Cilla has been sleeping on Sherry Spices blanket almost every night now. I bought Cilla a new cat bed that she has taken to, though it is on our bed, she seems very happy with it. She is spending time under the bed though. I haven't seen any fat tails, no growling from Sherry Spice...no incidents at all at the gates. Just looking at each other. They are eating at the gates, though not at the same time. Cillas food is about a foot away. But no incidents when Sherry Spice eats at the gate with Cilla watching. Last night the door was closed for about 15 minutes. No incidents! Just both at the door, sniffing under it. This morning was "questioning" meows from Cilla at the gates looking for Sherry Spice. This seems all good.
I'm thinking it's time to move forward. What do you suggest for a next step?

 

[calicosrspecial]

AWESOME!!!! I love to hear this.

When and for how long is she (Cilla) spending time under the bed?

How many days has it been with no incidences? I would like these feelings to be ingrained. I like to be more cautious before moving on as we always want to try to maximize the positives and minimize any negatives.

The next step would be to get them together without a barrier with supervision. We want to get them together for a short time trying to make sure the experience is as positive as possible for both of them. There are a couple of ways I do it, I use food, play, and love to achieve this. Cilla doesn't do play or love so food will be the best way to try to achieve this. We want them to be focused not on each other but on the food or play or love. We want to try to make sure it is a positive experience even if it is just for a short time. We need to be as calm and confident around them as possible. We have to be ready to distract (if possible) if one starts getting funny. We don't want a stare down and someone running away and starting a chase. Then we build on those positives. Get them together again try for a little longer etc. When they are calm and not focused on each other then we are good. There is a lot of art in the step. With Cilla not being able to be distracted in a positive way (play) it makes it a bit trickier. So that is why I want to make sure they are more desensitized at the barrier level.

Given Cilla I am thinking about the best location to do this. I would like to do this where Cilla is most confident.

Please let me know if you have any questions on the next step. The key is really to make sure the other one realizes the other cat is not a threat. If they don't fear and are confident then they should do well. We jsut have to try to maximize the positive encounter even if it is just for a short time at first. Then build off the positive encounters.

 

[elainerov]

Cilla spends several hours during the day (her sleeping hours) under the bed. I usually discourage her from doing that. A bit of a problem as she is not confident around us. She really loves her new bed on our bed, but if we are in that room she leaves. Also if she is in there and I put the gates up in that room to lock Cilla in, Sherry-Spice is totally unaware she is in there. Cillas other favorite spot is on her towel on the back of the couch in the family room. Again if I put gates up across that room, Sherry-Spice is totally unaware Cilla is there.
One last note, Sherry-Spice - when she is out, has discovered the family room and has been sleeping on an ottoman. Now I see Cilla laying on the ottoman. She seems very comfortable on it (leg hanging over the edge). She has never been on the ottoman before that.
I've been closing the doors on Sherry Spices area, so she has to be in the hallway (it's the only place they can she is other). I've been trying to do this about 15 minutes every day. Sherry-Spice did growl once.
My only thought is at the gates by Sherry Spices area... This AM Cilla was playing near the gates, and jumping on her 2 tier condo near the gates and eating at the gates. It seems as though she is wants to see Sherry-Spice.
What do you think about lifting the gates just high enough so they can put their feet under them, but not their bodies? Maybe to touch each other?

 

[calicosrspecial]

If that is what Cilla likes then it works. I like trying to encourage her to come out with the bed she likes on the bed, etc. I always try to use a positive motivator rather than try to force change.

I LOVE that Cilla is sleeping nicely on the ottoman that Sherry Spice was on.

I love that Cilla was playing by the gates, going on the condo and eating at the gate. Very positive.

It really depends on whether it will be a positive experience for them (lifting the gate so they can paw each other). The danger is that the pawing can get a little out of control and turn into a negative because of the barrier. The key really is to make every effort as positive as possible. Sometimes a cat can feel a little defensive as an "intruder" comes into their territory. It really just depends.

How do you think they would react? Who do you think would be most likely to put their paw under? And how would the other cat respond? It sounds like Cilla might want to reach under but I wonder how Sherry Spice might react. If you think Sherry Spice might be good then I would try it and monitor. It depends on how territorial Sherry Spice might be in that room.

 

[calicosrspecial]

For some reason the thread is not showing up in my watched threads feed so if you post and do not hear from me PLEASE send me a message. I will try to watch the cat behavior thread as well so I don't miss a post of yours.

 

[elainerov]

Cilla already tries to put her paw through the gate, but doesn't seem to be in an aggressive manner. I do think Sherry-Spice is protective of her area. It's definitely her safe zone. My thinking is Sherry-Spice will growl. Maybe a bit more swapping spaces first? But Sherry-Spice doesn't seem at all bothered by any of Cillas scent in the common area. Of course if I did this it would be supervised, as I do when they are at the gates together, I talk calmly and tell them how good they are. That definitely seems to keep things calm.

Yes the threads are difficult to find now. I was getting email alerts when you posted, but not now. I too will just keep checking.

 

[calicosrspecial]

Ok. I am not too worried about Cilla. It is the reaction from Sherry Spice that may escalate things. Because it is Sherry Spice's territory so when there is an "intruder" they can get a bit defensive. Not always but it could happen and it would be a negative.

Yes, cats do take on our emotions so it is great that you are being calm with them. That helps them relax.

We would like to do the face to face introduction in a common area (when we decide to go there). The tricky part will be to get Cilla in the same room so she isn't startled when walking in from another room. Even if we can get them together for a minute or two. Keeping it as positive as possible.

Let's do a bit more site swapping, keep getting them near the gate without incident, and then what we may do is try to get them in the common area together later this week or this weekend (as long as they are at the gate with no incidents). We have to make it so Cilla doesn't run away, that she just watches Sherry Spice or is distracted by something else. My guess Sherry Spice will mind her own business. But let me know if you think I am wrong. If they are together without incident for even a minute then we can try for a bit longer the next time. Cilla is giving positive signals. I think Sherry Spice''s growling is territorial which is less than ideal but not the end of the world.

What do you think? Do you think they are ready or is it rushing it? We want to continue having positive experiences and minimizing the negative.

 

[elainerov]

That's the thing, I don't know how to get Cilla in the same room as Sherry Spice with Sherry Spice being aware of Cilla being there. What would you think of putting Cilla in Sherry-Spices area, behind gates for awhile? I don't want to stress Cilla out either. Usually if she goes in there, as soon as I walk towards the area she runs out. The best I have been able to do with swapping is to lock Sherry Spice in the master bedroom and then let Cilla go to Sherry Spices area (which she does immediately).

It just seems that Sherry Spice doesn't even think about Cilla being around when she is in the common area. She doesn't look for Cilla, (creep around) she doesn't seem to have any idea Cilla is behind gates in the master bedroom or in the family room. I've even picked her up and tried to show her that she's there, but seems oblivious to Cilla.

I so much want to move forward, but I don't want to after having come so far, have a bad experience. This has been a long and taxing road.