Getting my Lucas to try raw, a new journey...

[momto4kitties]

Hello everyone.  I decided to give Lucas a break because the poor boy is stressed.   Ok ,Lucas has been eating only hills z/d for months.  Since I ran out today I went and bought Royal Canin HP, it is almost the same thing, I just changed it just in case the change helps.  

I can't pill Lucas because the Allergy Defense capsules are for cats and dogs that weight 20lbs or more and Lucas weighs only 9lbs now, so I open the capsule and just sprinkle half of the content on the food.  I was hoping to find some empty capsules at  the pharmacies today but they didn't have them,  I was thinking of ordering online.

Lucas is free feeding, the prednisolone makes him very hungry I think and he can't stand to see his plate empty, I know is not the best idea, to free feed, but that is what i'm doing. His favorite thing in the world is hills z/d and also strawberry yogurt.  He also loves his dry food.

Carolina,, thank you for the link to the Halo treats

 

[auntie crazy]

Originally Posted by Momto4kitties

...
Lucas is free feeding, the prednisolone makes him very hungry I think and he can't stand to see his plate empty, I know is not the best idea, to free feed, but that is what i'm doing. His favorite thing in the world is hills z/d and also strawberry yogurt.  He also loves his dry food.

....

Ah, well, that's a major part of the problem right there... why *should* he try something new when he's never hungry? Unless the cat simply likes the new food, it's pretty much impossible to successfully transition a free-fed cat. If you want Lucas to transition to a healthier diet, you're going to have to start schedule-feeding him.

I'm sorry you've decided not to continue trying to encourage him to eat healthier, Tammy. I'm not sure how offering him a new food could be stressing him?

  I hope you're able to pick up the attempt again very soon. 

AC

 

[carolina]

Tammy,

I am sorry to hear this..... I am wondering how Lucas got so stressed out? Perhaps the transition was done too fast?
IMHO though.... and I am not going to push it - I am just going to say it so you think about it and do want you think it is best - "he can have the cake and eat it too...."
What that means is, there is no reason for him to be stressed out. There is no reason for him to stop eating his kibbles NOW. This transition can be done VERY VERY slowly Tammy...... Keeping him happy, and you still trying - at his pace....
Look - Lucky is Worst than Lucas. You want to know why? She has NEVER, EVER eaten a bite of wet food on her own. She has never eaten yogurt, or human food, or anything that was not her kibbles. She is SO finicky, that to change her kibbles, while the others I change in a week, I take a whole month - a month.
Like your Lucas, there is Lucky, and there are many, many many that switch to raw.....
Is Lucky eating raw? Not as a diet, but I am making progress and I am sure she will one day.
Is she still eating kibbles? You betcha.
I am now on day 12 - do you know how many days it took me training her to put her on a schedule? 10. Only after 10 days I felt confident I could pull the plates after the meals. And it was not me - I noticed she was only eating during the meals - not free feeding - on her own - but I trained her.... and so can you.
You can do this very very slowly..... one step at a time...... at his pace.... but making progress everyday.....
You do not need to push food on him.... No need to force the raw on him.....
As Dr. Pierson said, it is not about forcing the diet on them - it is about convincing them to eat it.....
He will not be stressed out...... But if you give up, or take breaks...... he won't get there...... and the place he is, is not very good.....
A tiny progress a day IMHO can amount to a mountain of results in the end ....
Just something to think about it..... If you want to take this slowly..... This is how I am doing....... You can get there..... No stress.....

 

[momto4kitties]

I'm sooooo STRESSED!    I just want him to do this but he won't.  I know he doesn't have to stop eating kibbles now, but he won't even eat the kibbles if they are near a piece of raw or cooked meat.

When Lucas was eating the canned z/d only he was on a schedule, but when that didn't work ( allergies) I started free feeding again. I know is not good, but I used to serve the kibble, and he would just eat a few bites and leave, then he ate whenever he was hungry.  But when I started trying with the raw, I took the kibble away and tried to put him on a schedule.   I know I can put him on a schedule if I want to, I just don't know if he will ever try the raw.

Lucas is stressed because lets remember that he has lots of health problems, I can't tell for sure, but I think his body aches because of the Lupus and he has had fevers recently and he is depressed, I know the change is necessary, but we have to remember that he has lots of problems.  I know they could all be solved with the raw diet, I know that, but he just doesn't want to try it. 

I bought some pieces of turkey, rabbit and beef today so I could try again tomorrow.  I'm not giving up, I won't.  I want the best for him. 

I think I will post again when I have good news to tell you all. I hate giving bad news....

 

[auntie crazy]

I can only imagine how you feel, hon. Don't stop posting, we are all here for you! Hang in there, Tammy.

 

AC

 

[carolina]

I'm sooooo STRESSED!    I just want him to do this but he won't.  I know he doesn't have to stop eating kibbles now, but he won't even eat the kibbles if they are near a piece of raw or cooked meat.

When Lucas was eating the canned z/d only he was on a schedule, but when that didn't work ( allergies) I started free feeding again. I know is not good, but I used to serve the kibble, and he would just eat a few bites and leave, then he ate whenever he was hungry.  But when I started trying with the raw, I took the kibble away and tried to put him on a schedule.   I know I can put him on a schedule if I want to, I just don't know if he will ever try the raw.

Lucas is stressed because lets remember that he has lots of health problems, I can't tell for sure, but I think his body aches because of the Lupus and he has had fevers recently and he is depressed, I know the change is necessary, but we have to remember that he has lots of problems.  I know they could all be solved with the raw diet, I know that, but he just doesn't want to try it. 

I bought some pieces of turkey, rabbit and beef today so I could try again tomorrow.  I'm not giving up, I won't.  I want the best for him. 

I think I will post again when I have good news to tell you all. I hate giving bad news....

Tammy - Deep breaths in and out......
Lucky did exactly the SAME thing when I put a tiny thing of raw on her plate - she not only did not eat that piece, but stopped eating the kibbles.
I am telling you..... I know exactly what you are going through..... and I also know he will eat it.
I know he has health issues.....
I also know that if you do it slowly, training him instead of imposing into him - he will do it without even noticing it.
But you can not be stressed out.
Read my thread - there was one day that I came to TCS saying I wanted Drugs, Valium, whatever - Laurie and AC sent me for a drive :lol3::lol3::lol3:
I just HAD to get away for a breath.
It was MY stress..... But you just keep going..... and one day at a time, things keep progressing.... For lucky, very slowly, but surely enough, they do -
If you want, I can guide you how Laurie, AC and I put our heads together for safely and without stress SLOWLY stop free-feeding him? He will do that on his own - pinky promise -
What do you think?
Now go for a walk, watch a movie or something..... a quart of ice-cream
It's going to be alright hun

 

[carolina]

I think I will post again when I have good news to tell you all. I hate giving bad news....

It is not "bad news.....Knowing the exact details will help to figure out a solution to make it work...... :nod:
There are no bad news here..... There are only solutions waiting to be found Tammy - we are right here to help you

 

[momto4kitties]

You are right AC and Carolina , I have to keep trying and I need to relax.  It is very encouraging to know the same thing happened to you Carolina, and I read that on your thread, the day you wanted the valium and drugs, haha!  I want them too!    Oh well, I have to be strong for my boy.  I will relax and be patient with my dear boy.  I will get back on track now that you had me inspired again.

Hugs!

TAmmy

 

[ldg]

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tammy, a little perspective will help maybe, OK?

Imagine a young child. He's got a lot of allergies, but when he eats cheeseburgers, he seems to be OK as he can be. He's tried a lot of foods, and some of them were fine at first, but then began causing problems. It was always hard to figure out what wouldn't cause him problems every time this happened. But he's been eating cheeseburgers for a while, and things have been OK. Then one day, he starts having a problem again. The family is in a panic - they have tried giving him everything they can think of! It is SO stressful to see their baby like this. His family learns that if he eats lettuce and apples, he might not have any problems. They've never tried lettuce or apples. So the next day, they offer him some lettuce. He looks at them like they're crazy! It doesn't look or smell ANYTHING like the food he loves! So the next day, they offer him apples. Again, he looks at them like they're nuts!

Meanwhile, he's still allowed to eat cheeseburgers whenever he wants them. He's never hungry because he can always have a cheeseburger.

What do they do? How do they get him to eat apples and lettuce? They can't just take away the hamburgers... if he doesn't eat, that could cause more problems!

Clearly, the first thing they need to do is to get him to eat his meals on a schedule. There's no way they can help him learn to like lettuce and apples if he has no incentive to even try them. :nod:

The poor little guy cries and cries when he goes to get a cheeseburger, and there isn't one there for him to eat! But what's best for him? Letting him have the cheeseburgers because they can't stand to see him unhappy? In helping their little boy make the transition, it might not be a bad idea to let him have a few bites of one between meals every once in a while, while they work on getting him to eat meals at certain times. After all... his stomach and digestive system need to adjust from having little bits of food moving through it most of the time to going to periods of empty and periods of being fuller than he's used to being. :nod:

In the meantime, they can start getting him used to eating lettuce and apples. Instead of putting an entire apple between the bun and the burger, they can slip just a tiny piece of apple into the burger. He may take a few bites around it, and not eat it, but he can smell it in there. After a week or two, once he's used to the smell of it, he may get adventuresome and take the bite that has that teeny piece of apple in it. Once he does that, they keep just putting that little bit of apple in there. Once he's eating that bite every time he has a burger, they try putting another little bit of apple in there.

And over several weeks, they offer him lfewer and fewer bites of burger between meals, despite his tantrums, because in order to eat the meals they need him to eat, he MUST - eventually - be eating only at meal times.

You get where this is going.

You've probably already read this article: http://catinfo.org/?link=makingcatfood#Before_you_dive_in....

It's titled "Making Cat Food." But the relevant section is "Before You Dive In!" :lol3: And here are some REALLY relevant parts of it. :heart3:

Before you dive into making cat food....

.....I want to mention that there are few things more frustrating than slaving away in the kitchen carefully preparing a wonderful meal for your carnivore.....only to have them end up sniffing it and then walking away.

I don't like to see people get discouraged so I strongly suggest that you just take it slowly.

When I decided to start making cat food, I did not buy a grinder and all of the supplements right away. I just simply bought a chicken thigh and a chicken breast (some cats may like dark meat more than white or vice versa), thoroughly rinsed the meat with water, and cut it up into small pieces (the size of a pea or a bit larger) to see if my cats would eat raw meat. A couple of cats went for it right away and a couple of them just walked away. Ok....that was a start.

(Most cats will like thigh meat better than breast meat because thigh meat has a higher fat content and fat increases palatability.)

I then mixed in a few of these small pieces with their canned food to get them used to the taste and texture of just plain meat. I also cooked some of the pieces to see how that went over. If your cat likes it cooked, you can then cook it less and less to get them used to eating raw or semi-cooked meat.

Other tips: Coat the meat pieces in parmesan cheese or FortiFlora. FortiFlora is a probiotic that I use to entice cats to eat. I do not use it as the label states since I am not using it for its probiotic properties. Instead, I am using it as I would if I wanted to season my own food with salt and pepper. As little as 1/10th of a package sprinkled on top of food can go a long way to entice a cat to eat something new. This is because FortiFlora is formulated using an animal digest which is the same substance that they coat dry food with to make it very palatable for cats and dogs.

....Please keep in mind that many cats are not going to dive into any new food right away! It takes time, patience and some tricks to transition cats onto a new diet. (It took me 3 months to get my cats off of dry food and eating canned food but it took less time to move them from canned to homemade.)

Also note that I have seen cats go from dry food to a raw or semi-cooked diet - and still refuse to eat canned food.

If your cat does not take to a new food immediately, don't get discouraged. Try mixing the new food with their existing diet of canned food at a ratio of 10% new to 90% old and then gradually increase the new diet from there.

Your cat may make it easy for you and show enthusiasm for the new food right away....but many (most?) of them will not. It took one of my cats (Toby) many months before he would start eating this diet with any consistency and when he finally did start eating it, I noticed that he was picking out the pieces that got a bit cooked when I was warming the food. Toby still is not terribly keen on strictly raw meat so he gets his semi-cooked. See below for a picture of how he likes his 'raw' diet half cooked and half raw. I often cook it even more than is shown in the picture below. Interestingly, Toby is one of my cats that does not like canned food.

I know you can't feed Lucas canned right now, and you're going to have to get more creative than the vet (Lisa Pierson) did.

But I posted that excerpt for a reason - it took her three months to make the transition from dry food to canned. :heart3: I know Lucas made the transition from dry food to canned z/d timed meals quickly... but this is a bigger leap. Much bigger. And, sadly, since he's still reacting so badly to the canned food, using it is not an option. You're going to have to figure out how to work with kibble.

One of AC's (I think it was AC) suggestions to Carolina was to put a small piece of meat on the plate with Lucky's kibbles, or on the plate where she was serving the canned food to Bugsy and Hope. Just to get them used to the sight and smell of it. Well - Lucky walked away from it rather than even eat the kibble she loves! Then I think it was Callie that suggested she coat that little pea-sized lump of meat with something Lucky loves - the Halo treats.

Now... when the Fortiflora arrives, that may help a lot. :nod: But in the meantime, you know he loves kibble, and you know he loves yogurt. So you can try taking a kibble-sized piece of meat, crush the kibble, and roll that little pea-sized piece of meat in the crushed kibble, and just set it on top of the bowl of kibble, or on the plate with some other kibble. The first step will be when he doesn't turn away - and it may take a while for THAT to happen!

Of course... you will need to start the process of getting him to eat timed meals. If he's not eating enough, that's not surprising. He's not used to eating enough at one sitting. :nod:

When I made the transition for our cats from free-feeding to eating all wet food at timed meals, it was NOT easy. I had to settle on four meals a day, because I just couldn't get them to eat enough at any one meal. I was able to make that work because I work from home... but when I'm out all day, which happens, they get three meals a day. And that's the way most people do it - a meal before work, a meal when they get home, and a meal before bed. :nod: At this point, I could make the transition to three meals a day. But I'd say... it would have taken me 4-5 months to get there. :lol3:

So sweetheart, it's only been four days.

I KNOW it's stressful. ...but seeing your baby sick is just as stressful. :heart3:

 

[momto4kitties]

HI Laurie.  I'm feeling stronger and what I need to keep in mind is that is not that I could do this ,is that I HAVE to do this no matter what.  Thank you for all the info,  It helps.  I know I will be able to keep Lucas on a schedule again because for example, before starting to give him the canned z/d he used to have food available all night,  and when I stopped giving it to him it was hard at firts, buy he got used to it and now he doesn't eat at night, he wakes me up at 6am because he is hungry and then I feed him.  I just know it will be easy for him to adapt to the new schedule, in fact, he mostly sleeps all day anyway.

I will go for it, everyday even if it takes time, I won't give up. 

Tammy

 

[ldg]

Here's a quick question - if you roll a piece of kibble in the yogurt, will he eat it? If so, feed him a few like that several times a day.

And if he eats THAT, and you do that, then one day try a pea sized piece of raw, rolled in crushed kibble, then rolled in yogurt. Put it on a plate with several pieces of kibble rolled in yogurt and see what happens.

We'll come up with more ideas if you're not finding something that helps.

I'm so glad you're feeing stronger! THAT is what WE'RE here for! :heart3:

 

[carolina]

HI Laurie.  I'm feeling stronger and what I need to keep in mind is that is not that I could do this ,is that I HAVE to do this no matter what.  Thank you for all the info,  It helps.  I know I will be able to keep Lucas on a schedule again because for example, before starting to give him the canned z/d he used to have food available all night,  and when I stopped giving it to him it was hard at firts, buy he got used to it and now he doesn't eat at night, he wakes me up at 6am because he is hungry and then I feed him.  I just know it will be easy for him to adapt to the new schedule, in fact, he mostly sleeps all day anyway.

I will go for it, everyday even if it takes time, I won't give up. 

Tammy

Hi Tammy - The way I put Lucky on a schedule - I am still somewhat struggling a bit with her eating proper qtys BUT she is doing well, not stressed and is not losing weight, was this:
For the three meals a day - when I fed the other kitties - I would personally feed her too. On these times, which are, like Laurie said, before work, after work, and before bed (in my house, 9am, 6pm and 11pm), I will sit with her alone for a good 20 minutes. She will have my full and exclusive attention.
Kibble was still available on he plate, however, she LOVED my company. I did something like this- for example: With Lucas, is there a different place where you can feed him all together? A different room from where you are feeding him now where you can be alone with him with the door closed? This will be important, as he will be looking forward for meal time to be with momma.
On ALL other times: leave the food on the original room, on his regular bowl, but do not go there with him. Do not give him any attention. You will see that he will learn to call you for meals... and very soon on his own, he will start to eat only with you. Make sure to schedule these meals for a time when you are home. And make sure to be consistent with the time. Try to get him to eat as much as you can during those meals - put some kibbles on the floor, scratch his head.... Stay there for 20-30 minutes.
Make sure to measure the food after each meal, so you know if he is eating throughout the day......
When you see that he is eating enough on those meals, and you feel confident that you can take those plates away from him - that's when you will do so. By then, he will already be used to eat on a schedule. :nod:

Here's a quick question - if you roll a piece of kibble in the yogurt, will he eat it? If so, feed him a few like that several times a day.
And if he eats THAT, and you do that, then one day try a pea sized piece of raw, rolled in crushed kibble, then rolled in yogurt. Put it on a plate with several pieces of kibble rolled in yogurt and see what happens.
We'll come up with more ideas if you're not finding something that helps.
I'm so glad you're feeing stronger! THAT is what WE'RE here for! :heart3:

Tammy, can you describe exactly how you are making the treats you are giving to Lucas?
Laurie, that's an excellent idea! :bigthumb:

 

[carolina]

One of AC's (I think it was AC) suggestions to Carolina was to put a small piece of meat on the plate with Lucky's kibbles, or on the plate where she was serving the canned food to Bugsy and Hope. Just to get them used to the sight and smell of it. Well - Lucky walked away from it rather than even eat the kibble she loves! Then I think it was Callie that suggested she coat that little pea-sized lump of meat with something Lucky loves - the Halo treats.

Lucky had SUCH an aversion to raw at first, that this completely backfired - we decided to not put the treats on her plate at all in the beginning, as she was refusing to eat her food at all.
Actually, AC told me to not give her raw anywhere near her plate until she was no longer freaked out about it :nod:

I would do the same with Lucas.

And yes Laurie, you are right - anytime now that the little treats go into her plate, or anywhere near her plate, it still goes heavily coated with Halo :nod:

Something else to think about it - what meat are you giving him?
I noticed today that Rad Cat's smell, while delicious for Bugsy and Hope, is too overwhelming for Lucky - while NV' Rabbit and Halo's chicken are not.... So I will have to stick with one of the two for he transition........

 

[ldg]

Just popping by to send some hugs and some vibes, for momma to feel strong, and not discouraged, even though Lucas is so stubborn!

 

[momto4kitties]

Hello everybody

Ok , about the timed meals, this is what I did today. Lucas woke me up at 6am, as always, and I gave him breakfast that consisted of Royal Canin HP kibble and a small piece of beef with kibble "dust"all over like Carolina does for Lucky.  He didn't touch his food, he looked at me like saying:  "mom you made a mistake, that is not food, get it out of my plate, that's gross". I still left it there and he skipped breakfast.  After a while I took the plate away and went to church.  When I got back he and Nena were sssoooo hungry! 

I gave them the exact same thing.  Lucas refused, but after a couple of minutes he started eating the kibble, ignoring the raw meat completely.  But, at least he ate and the smell didn't seem to bother him anymore, that is something. I have to hold on to someting.

No Laurie, I've never given Lucas kibble with yougurt, buy that is a good idea, I will have to try that, thank you! You are all so creative , I love it.

Carolina, I will keep in mind what you said about setting a special time for me and Lucas, in fact, I've always encourage Lucas to eat because whe I first got him he was tiny and I had to help him so he could eat and he got used to be with me for every meal, in fact, he still gets me out of bed some mornings so I can pet his back and touch him while he eats, he purrs , it is soo cute  Today he and Nena ate together, but I will try to keep her away while he eats and I will stay with him, that way he will be more comfortalble.

By the way,  the only cat that ate the meat today was Nena, none of the others liked it.  I prepared ziplock bags and I have them in the freezer so I can be ready for the next couple of days,  I will keep trying this, I will do it, you'll see

I recorder a little video of what happened today at lunch.  I will not record them again, don't want to bother them while they; eat, I just did it today so you can all see Lucas reaction to the meat.  At the end you see how he eats only the kibble:

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

I just have to laugh at him trying to cover it up!  My Stinkpot does that too, but with any kind of canned food, the goofball.  (Lord knows how I am ever going to convert HIM to raw, either

)

So...that's an awfully big chunk of beef!  Is it a cube, or is it ground?  I think I would start to making it smaller (as if I'm an expert, but I'm just going by what Carolina did with her pea sized bit of raw coated in Halo dust). 

BUT, great news in that he ate from the same plate.  Thanks seems like a really big deal

!  I think maybe you are on your way now!!!!!!!  BTW, how is he tolerating the new Royal Canin? 

 

[momto4kitties]

Yes, I think I did gave him a big piece of meat, but is not a cube, it is ground.  I have to make it smaller, I know, when I gave him chicken I made it smaller, but this time I went a little over the top.     He tolerates the Royal Canin pretty well actually, but then again, he hasn't been on it long and since he ate z/d  for a long time, the effect is still there, he still has allergies, I have to wait and see.  I just hope he is not allergic to the RC so he can at least get a little better while we work  on getting him to eat raw.  And thank God Lucas has never suffered from diarrhea or other stomach problems.  He tolerates changes in food pretty well, his transition from dry to wet was super easy.

He is funny, he tries to cover up everyting he doesn't like and he also covers what's left on the plate once he is done eating.

 I'm here watching tv and waiting for him to wake up to give him his dinner. I wanted to go to the movies today, but I really need to be here today to feed him.  I don't know how I will do this once I start working outside my home. I work from home now. 

 

[carolina]

Hi Tammy -
Yeah.... that's way too much meat..... :nod:
I take a tiny bit - think the size of a pea.
* In one plate, I have the treat powder - in your case - the RC kibble powder......
* I smash that kibble flat and pass it on that plate, both sides, so it is completely covered with the kibbles powder - not slightly covered, but completely covered. both sides.
Serve - as suggested by Laurie, you can cover these in yogurt, since it is hie favorite thing ever!!
They are really thin - flat treats, and covered on both sides.....
If he has an aversion to meat, like Lucky had, I suggest not putting the meat at all on the kibble plate for now - give the treats for him when he is hungry - at night for example... as a treat.

When he is more comfortable with the meat, you start putting tiny piece on his plate - pea size.....

**********
On moving him to a schedule:
I would not do it cold turkey - I would do the way I posted..... getting him used to eat only with you..... you don't need to pull the plates from him now, as he is not used to eat full meals on schedule and he has to eat a proper amount.... Or if you do that, make sure to have at least 4 meals to start, then go back to 3.
Also make sure to write down everything he is eating, so you know he is eating a sufficient amount.... :nod:

 

[momto4kitties]

Ok  I think that is the right thing to do.  Right now he woke up and he is waiting for me to give him his kibble, what do you think I should do?  Do I give him  the pea size meat as a treat now? 

 

[momto4kitties]

NO worries about  him not getting ebought to eat carolina, he ate well each time.  And now he wants more.