Day-Old Abandoned Litter of Five

[StefanZ]

 
, but he hasn't eaten this mealtime. I barely got him to take 2ml. I'm going to check back up on him in half an hour to see if he'll want to eat. Also, his poop was a strange color, it was a lot lighter than the others.

Yellow alert flag!, perhaps even red alert flag...

Take his weight every 12 hours.

Continue to report!

 

[dustytiger]

Okay, so I waited half an hour and then tried to feed him again and he drank 5ml.

I think maybe it might be best to keep him separate for a while? I weighed him just this morning and he's at 125g. I'll weigh him again in six hours.

Edit: I fed him again two hours later and he easily drank 6ml and his poop colour is a little more yellow.

 

[StefanZ]

 
Okay, so I waited half an hour and then tried to feed him again and he drank 5ml.

I think maybe it might be best to keep him separate for a while? I weighed him just this morning and he's at 125g. I'll weigh him again in six hours.

It probably doesnt matter much.  IF there is an contagion, it has probably spread around by now.

But IF you want to isolate him, make him nest of fleece if you got it - they kittens feel it almost as moms fur.   Perhaps also a heat pad - although I know you are in a country warmer than our cold Sweden. 

Carrying him at your chest do also help quite a lot.  Living warmth and love is very strong medicines, you know.  

 

[dustytiger]

Yeah, it seems like they suddenly ALL got light colored poop, so I guess it did spread. I don't know how it happened, I've been so careful to keep everything clean and sterilized. 

I honestly have no idea where to get a heating pad, tbh, but I'll look into it. So far, I have been regularly changing a  bottle for him and he's got a thick blanket lining the floor and sides of his new box. I think it might be better to keep him separate because he might go back to suckling on his siblings.

I'm worried some of the other kittens are starting to show a similar lack of appetite, and their diarrhea has suddenly gotten much worse.

 

[StefanZ]

Had you any changes in the food?  Which of the powdered milks  you are using?

Do you have access to any probiotic?  They are easiest to find in Health Care shops / shops for health minded people.

probiotic "s boulardii"  and BeneBac are the two probably best, but there are surely other suitable too...

 

[keyes]

Someone posted, awhile ago, about using a sock with rice in it and warming that up in a microwave and then putting it in the nest of kittens.  Covered the sock so it wasn't in direct touch with the babies  Hopefully they're reading this thread and can tell you what they did.  One thing to think of, is that even though you are in warmer climes. just think of normal where a mother cat would be there and her babies would be snuggled against her irregardless of what the the temp is outside.  I hope you understand what I'm trying to say here.

 

[keyes]

Right now, with the health situation going on I would rather have them stinky then becoming ill.  If nothing else, be like a mom cat and use a damp washrag and give them a quick wipe down and get them back to warmth immediately.

 

[dustytiger]

@StefanZ  

Yeah, I ran out of KMR and had to give them the puppy goat milk. I put in an order for some KMR, but it's pretty uncertain when it'll arrive. I figured the puppy milk would be better to get their weight up considering it had more fat content than the kitten one. The sick kitten seems to have lost ten grams, though, and I'm very worried about him. He's drinking better now, at least, but I can't get him to drink more than 5ml. 

I'm not sure about probiotics, though. Is it something I could get at a drugstore? I could ask around for it, make some calls to nearby pharmacies.

@keyes

Yeah, I understand. I've seen a lot of nesting queens, and the babies always want to be by her. You mean to try and make the heat source feel more natural, right? 

I did some googling and found this,

"If you don't have a heat pad, you can fill a clean sock with uncooked white rice or white beans until the sock feels firm. Tie a secure knot in the open end and place the sock in the microwave for 60 seconds. Test the temperature before you put the sock heater in with your kitten. Make sure the sock is not too hot. If your kitten is cold, you can curl the sock around him."

Is that what you mean? It sounds kind of strange, but I could totally manage it. My one concern is how long it stays warm for, though. The water bottles I put for them are usually still considerably hot when I go in to reheat them. I'm a little dubious about how long a rice sock could stay warm....

@keyes,

My current thoughts exactly, tbh. There's no way I'm risking any further complications. I actually already have been cleaning them a little with warm, damp cotton swabs, but I'll do as you recommend if they seem to get too dirty.

Once again, thank you all for your help!

 

[StefanZ]

 
@StefanZ  

Yeah, I ran out of KMR and had to give them the puppy goat milk.

Try then with the kitten goat milk, as its less fat in it.  Excessive fat can give white poo, both in humans and surely in kittens  (although with kittens we seldom see they get too much fat).

Good luck!

 

[dustytiger]

Okay! I'll try that out now, thanks!

Hopefully it'll turn out alright. 

 

[keyes]

@feline03-Sorry, I just got a little confused.  I read your post about the difficulties finding a heating pad and I assumed that because of your warmer temps that you had nothing at all for warmth.  I must have missed the mention of water bottles.   Although a heating pad would be nice just because the warmth would be consistent  And I read about the socks on one of the postings here on Cat Site.  Pregnant cats and kitten care..

 

[dustytiger]

@keyes

Not to worry! I appreciate your concern for the kittens. Tbh, I thought you were just recommending a better alternative to hot water bottles. 

On a different note, however, I'm currently trying to feed the kittens, as two hours have passed since last feeding time, and some of them are refusing to eat. I'm worried that the kitten milk might have disagreed with them. Should I put them back onto the puppy milk? I'm so worried, it seems like nothing I do is working suddenly. 

 

[reba]

Dusty my experience was that every time I changed their formula I had problems.  Even if it was the same brand and I went from the pre-mixed to the powder or back again.    When I went from the GNC to the KMR powder I would mix it 75%-25%, then 50-50 then 25-75 until it was all KMR.  Their systems are just soooo sensitive.

I hate to throw more stuff at you, but if you can't get enough formula to feed the same thing all the time would it be better to use kitten glop?

 

[dustytiger]

Honestly, I would be all for making kitten glop if it weren't for the fact that some of the ingredients are hard to access. Malaysia is a largely Muslim-populated country, and gelatine in america contains pork, which is non-halal here so it's tough to find gelatine like what we have back in the states or in western countries. There is a sort of  different type of gelatin that they use but it's got a different composition. The mayonnaise needed also has a much more different composition--the ones found on shelves contain a lot of vinegar and lemon juice and no eggs, which I'm pretty sure wouldn't be very good for them??

I mean, I could definitely try and get my hands on some, but honestly accessing non-halal food/products in this country can get very complicated--especially for someone like me with Arabian descent. Even though I'm an American citizen and spent most of my life there, just my Arabic name and heritage could have them refuse to sell any to me on the slimmest chance that I might be a Muslim trying to secretly break rules. And I'm pretty sure "But I need it for kittens!" isn't really going to sound very convincing to people that have most likely heard it all.

EDIT:

So I found this alternate recipe that I could possibly use,

* 12 oz can evaporated milk
* 1/2 cup water
* 1 egg yolk
* 1 tsp kayro syrup
* 1-2 drops of vitamin

I have pretty much everything on it save for evaporated milk and karo syrup, which I could easily get. Would it be as good, though?

 

[reba]

I wondered if the gelatin would cause a problem and if the mayonnaise had different ingredients.   Sorry to hear they aren't eating - I suppose not try to force it and wait and hour and try again.  You do have to sleep though.  

 

[catwoman707]

Wow, I got so busy with cat drama and rescues here and there, relocating ferals, etc that I haven't had any time to come check in to see how things are coming along.

I see there are some issues.

For starters, their poop has changed and they are refusing to eat because you ran out of KMR, and everything else is causing serious tummy issues, so if they have tummy aches they will naturally not want to eat.

The homemade formula is not sufficient for long term, and the mayonnaise is far too different then here in the US, and will only cause further problems.

They will all go downhill quickly and not make it as long as all of this is happening.

You MUST find KMR someplace, are there animal hospitals and clinics? Call every one if you have to.

I think things are not looking so good now with what ever the replacement formula is they are getting, and are resisting.

The switch causes gassy, painful tummies and unbalanced digestive tract.

Please do not separate the one kitten! This is all bad. Bad mentally, physically, it's no good and not necessary at all. He doesn't have some contagious issue that will infect the others, it just doesn't work that way.

As far as warmth, blankets won't do a bit of good if they are without an actual heat source, their bodies are too young to control their temps, and MUST have a heat source, then comfy soft things will help to contain the heat, but without it they will simply become room temp and die.

Do you see what I mean by this? Momma would be their heater, she has a constant temp of about 100 degrees, so by them snuggling with her they will stay warm. 

Blankets will only help insulate a heat source.

Bottle kittens do tend to nurse on one anothers genitals. babies have a very strong instinct to nurse, it's what nature gave them to survive, nurse nurse nurse!

So it happens alot when babies don't have a mom to nurse on very often, to get it out of their system. Otherwise, they seek it elsewhere.

One of the few reasons this will happen is being weaned too young and they still have that drive to nurse, so will turn to anything at all that resembles this, it is nothing sexual at all, and they don't get anything out of it except comfort and security.

Also when bottles have nipples that are cut too large and don't allow them enough sucking action, they will turn to nursing on each other as well.

The last thing you want to do is separate a kitten who is showing they are badly lacking the sucking already.

The more they get to suck on a bottle, the less they will turn to each other.

At their little age it actually won't technically hurt the victim, but it will become a habit, that's the down side to it now. Otherwise the damage later when they are bigger kittens would be swelling penis and soreness, then I use bitter apple to turn them away from doing this, and break the habit.

 

[reba]

CW the recipe she posted above doesn't have the mayonnaise so would that work?

Dusty where do you live in Malaysia, is it a rural area or in one of the cities?

 

[catwoman707]

 
CW the recipe she posted above doesn't have the mayonnaise so would that work?

Dusty where do you live in Malaysia, is it a rural area or in one of the cities?

Yes it can be used. The vitamin drops must be made for adult cats, or babies, and add 2 drops into the formula mix.

Do not use left over formula after 48 hours, it needs to be made fresh again.

These homemade formulas scare me, as it is so iffy whether or not they are getting enough of specific vitamins, that are so important, taurine, calcium, etc.

The last 2 I'm posting I'd say are your best bet, especially the one with goats milk. 

There are others too.

4 oz evaporated milk

4 oz water

2 egg yolks

1 teaspoon corn syrup

1 capsule cod liver oil

Or-

1 part boiled water to 5 parts evaporated milk

1/2 teaspoon bone meal per 16 oz of fluid.

Or-

3 egg yolks

3 oz water

3 oz goat milk

4 oz plain full fat (not non/low fat) yogurt.

Or-

1/2 cup evaporated milk,

1 teaspoon of mayonnaise, or 1 egg yolk
a drop or two of infant vitamins,
Small squirt of clear Karo syrup 

Personally I would go for the second to the last or the last one I posted. Use an egg yolk rather than mayo, which is too bad since the yolk is a good thing, but okay.

I would not use the mayo you have there, it is very different, yes.

I would order kmr right away and use one of these meanwhile.

They have some upset/gassy tummies but still MUST eat. I know it's awful to make them, but they can't wait, they have to get back to gaining right away hun!

 

[dustytiger]

Thanks for all your help, as well as all the information you've provided! I think I could manage the last two recipes, probably. I already ordered KMR, tbh. I ordered it yesterday or maybe the day before, I think, (time is funky to keep track of when you're not sleeping nights.) but it still hasn't arrived. I'm in one of the really rural areas, tbh, so the nearest animal hospital is about 5 hours away, and the nearest shelter is about 7.  I could see if anyone is passing through the area, though, and maybe they could get me some.

The kittens seemed to be getting into pretty bad condition, though, so I rushed them over to the vet as soon as the place opened tbh. He just took them and said that he'd rehydrate them and give them his own special formula then give them back to me in the evening as they do not have overnight staff and I'd have to take it from there. He said, though, that they appear to have a virus and said it might be something called FPV, which is usually quite fatal. He said that there've been a lot of cases of it lately, and that maybe the mother of these kittens died of it, which was why they were ditched in the park. He said he'd do what he could for them, but if they really did have it, their chances were slim and he was surprised I'd kept them going for this long.

Honestly, with all the misinformation these vets around here have been giving me, I'm a little dubious about his diagnosis, but.... I honestly didn't really have any other options at the time. They're going to stay with him until 6PM and he said he'd do what he can for them. He also added that considering their age when I got them, they probably didn't have any of their mother's antibodies and basically any form of virus or sickness could be fatal to them. Which, I don't know how they could have caught anything in the ways of a virus either, considering how often we changed their bedding, sterilized everything and kept them warm. All that comes to mind is that maybe someone touched them without washing their hands---though I warned everybody not to do that, my family doesn't really listen to me very much. They're not exactly animal lovers.

To be perfectly candid, I don't know how they could have survived as long as they did with me at all if they do have FPV. I just read the description of the disease, and while, yeah, we had a long struggle, it wasn't as intense as all that. Jesus, it's terrifying! TERRIFYING! Ugh, I'm shuddering just thinking about it....

Still, they're in his hands for the time being. He's basically the last vet in the area that hasn't disappointed me in some way or other so far, but so many of the vets here have proven to not quite know what they're doing already. It's making so anxious. I'm going to burn a circle into my rug with all the pacing I'm doing.

 

[catwoman707]

FPV? That's panleukopenia. 

I don't see this, I see they are having a difficult time with the formulas and the switching them.

Really, I don't see them having panleuk.

I think this is a guess by the vet because they won't eat and have diarrhea. This does not follow the signs of panleuk, they would be very lethargic and vomiting anytime something goes in to their bodies.

It's not the problem imo.

He will hydrate them, but the fact remains, you do not have appropriate formula for them, and they are SO darn young, they must start getting food now. The vet is not feeding them is he?

They're not going to make it much longer without nutrition and calories............

I feel you! VERY stressful.

If I were you I would use this time to gather up the ingredients needed to make formula for them, prepare it, and as soon as you have, go get them and start feeding them again.

The time with nothing except fluids should help their tummies settle down and lose some of the gas in them. (gas is formed by having a difficult time digesting, which happens simply from switching up formulas, and inappropriate formula) however they are still critical, malnourished, literally starving to death. 

Baby kittens digest what they consume in 2 hours, which is why they need to be fed every 2 hours, they have no reserves at all.

Gosh you are trying so hard but are so limited, how awful.

Let him get them all well hydrated, then get them home asap and start feeding them again, as much and as often as possible so you don't lose them.

At this point it can go either way until they eat for a full day well and gain again every day.

They would have been doing just fine now if there was kmr there.

How sad