Day-Old Abandoned Litter of Five

[StefanZ]

I also passed by the vet and he gave me some glucose powder he said to mix in with their milk, and some multivitamins to mix in as well. I'm a little weary of his advice, though, because he also wanted me to go back to giving them the milk that had been starving them previously, but I'm glad I at least got my hands on some of the glucose powder.

They still have diarrhea, though, and I was thinking I might give them the KMR diluted --like suggested on messybeast-- with a 1:1 ratio, so 2ml of the KMR and 2ml of boiled then cooled water. If that doesn't seem to be working I'll switch them onto the pedialyte.

It seems to contain less fat than the others, both the puppy variation and my Polish product...   I really dont understand this.   But here we dont need to do inspired quesses.  We do have a measure:

Compare the ratio of protein,  fat,  carbos, with the equivalent in the PetAg pulver can.  We know PetAg is a decent product,  constructed for kittens.   This of the puppys  - kitten powders, which is nearest PetAg?    use the winner - or PetAg..

AND tell us what you found!

@LDG

 

[reba]

Yeah, I know the advice is coming fast and furiously, but the powder is much cheaper and I had real problems when I switched from the liquid to the powder. 

1 can won't last you long and you shouldn't switch back and forth between brands, that's what causes the problems.

I bought five pounds of the stuff:

You can get it directly on pet ags site:

http://www.petag.com/product/cat-milk-replacers/kmr-powder-2/

Or on Amazon


But you can get the smaller cans of powder on Amazon:


I can't for the life of me figure out whey this is so hard to find.

Also I'll just throw the suggestion out that you check the shelter and see if they'll sell you any.

Also Pedialyte (someone correct me if I'm wrong) is the same thing as the glucose.  And you can get it at any drugstore.  If they had diarrhea I would mix part of the formula with this instead of water. 

"Dilute the kitten formula by 1/3 with Pedialyte and feed your kitten as you normally would, recommends the Alliance for Philadelphia's Animals. When the stool is no longer loose, reduce the amount of Pedialyte mixed with the formula until you are feeding the little kitty only formula again."

http://pets.thenest.com/pedialyte-kittens-diarrhea-8591.html

 

[reba]

Oh and finally:

"I also passed by the vet and he gave me some glucose powder he said to mix in with their milk, and some multivitamins to mix in as well."

You know what, every time you add something to the mix, you also add another possibility of what could be making them sick.  That alone can drive you bonkers if you're a thoughtful person, which you certainly appear to be.

I would keep it simple, just the formula and one treatment for the diarrhea.

Your vet is probably well intentioned, but unless he's a regular bottle feeder, consider you are talking to someone who doesn't know what he doesn't know.   

 

[catwoman707]

SO glad you found KMR! This would be the pre-mixed can, and I highly recommend as others have that you call the store who is ordering it to order cans of the powder version.

Not only is it cheaper, will last you much longer, and is freshly made, but they wont have the possible issues of constipation or diarrhea caused from the pre-mixed version.

Stick to one thing now and continue on.

Honestly I am so unsure about what nutrients they have been taking in so far, so for now please don't dilute the kmr, despite the diarrhea.

For at least a couple/few days, get them balanced out and stabilized then we can address the diarrhea if it's still an issue.

 

[jcat]

reba She's in Asia, which is why availability is a problem.

 

[catwoman707]

Thanks @jcat  !!

 

[reba]

Ohhhhhh I'm so sorry!  

 

 

[reba]

You know I'm thinkin' isn't that odd that there's foreign writing on the can ... LOL....

 

[dustytiger]

Thanks for all the advice!

But.... Honestly I'm getting a little confused with the conflicting opinions. I'm really worried about dehydration, so honestly my first impulse is to mix in Pedialyte with their milk, but I'm also very worried about the nutrition...

I tried the pinch test on them, and their fur seems to go back quickly, but it did take two seconds. I felt like it didn't "snap" back like how it was described as it should.

I've checked out the ingredients in both the goat milk aimed at kittens and the one aimed at puppies and honestly the kitten one is so lacking in information on the box that it's really impossible to tell. Like, it's listed ingredients are "Goat milk powder, non dairy creamer, high calcium" and that's IT! The puppy one, on the other hand, has a long list of ingredients, a fair amount of which match the KMR.  Honestly, it's frustrating not having any more actual KMR, but I'm going to search for more outlets of that shop and hopefully I'll find something at one of the other places. Otherwise, I'm going to order some myself (because I can't rely on waiting for the shop to order more. Over here, when people say things like "We'll put an order for it" it could meant that it's coming next week or in months.) and hopefully it'll arrive soon.

 

[catwoman707]

Hydration is number one of course, but what goes in must be nutritious as well.

If they are continuously fed the amt required, which is always 8 mls per ounce of weight a day, divided in to how ever many times fed per day, then there is no worry about dehydration, and pediolyte is not necessary.

The main focus is on the lack of kmr given, as well know for sure that it is everything they need to be healthy and grow. This is their biggest growth time they will ever have.

Have you checked their weights today?

Try to stick with the same time each day, and whether it's before or after feedings/pottying.

 

[dustytiger]

Yeah, I actually just finished checked all their weights because it's feeding time already.

I've been checking them around this time, and switched to a scale that's in oz so it's easier to tell how much food they'd each need without having to convert them to grams.

Today their weights are

Big Tabby-- 3.5oz

Big Black-- 3.5oz

Small Tabby-- 3.5oz

Black and white-  3.0oz

Small Black-- 2.9oz

If it's a small mix of pedialyte, like one ml out of the four of milk I've been giving them, would it have that big an impact on their nutrition if it's just for a day? Although, I understand that even one day of full meals is important for kittens.

 

[StefanZ]

 
Yeah, I actually just finished checked all their weights because it's feeding time already.

I've been checking them around this time, and switched to a scale that's in oz so it's easier to tell how much food they'd each need without having to convert them to grams.

Today their weights are

Big Tabby-- 3.5oz

Big Black-- 3.5oz

Small Tabby-- 3.5oz

Black and white-  3.0oz

Small Black-- 2.9oz

If it's a small mix of pedialyte, like one ml out of the four of milk I've been giving them, would it have that big an impact on their nutrition if it's just for a day? Although, I understand that even one day of full meals is important for kittens.

An alternative is to give pure pedialyte inbetween the feedings.  Say 1 ml each.  Notg so much it will take away their hunger, but so much they get extra fluid.

Its of course more work for you....

 

[catwoman707]

Oh boy they are really small for 1 week old. 

Day 7 they should have doubled their birth weight, or at least BY day 10.

I am going to look at weights yesterday to compare and see what gains have been in the last 24 hrs.

Is there a reason why you think they need pediolyte added?

 

[dustytiger]

@StefanZ

I think I'd be able to manage it. Maybe an hour after their feeding I could give them 1ml, so there's an hour until their next full meal and it won't have a big effect on their appetite. 

@catwoman707

Yeah, I feel like their fur is a little slow to come back after doing the pinch test to check for dehydration, and I'm seriously terrified of them getting dehydrated. 

& honestly I have no idea why they still don't seem to be gaining much weight. I asked the vet and he said that they were in such a bad shape when I brought them in on the first day that they might be so starved I might  not be seeing much growth for the first month but....

I dunno, if they're healthy in other aspects they should be gaining a lot of weight by now, right?

 

[catwoman707]

Okay so they have either stayed the same or lost a bit since yesterday.....

They are not getting enough calories.

Was it due to the prior food, I don't know, but they must gain daily, they are in serious danger now with their weights being extremely low and not gaining weight either.

@StefanZ  you know I have much respect for you and all of your great advice, but I would not agree at this time about giving additional pediolyte, you don't want to do anything that will cause their tummies to feel full without getting those much needed calories in, they really need their kmr increased, ASAP.

If it weren't for their weights now I would have agreed otherwise, it's always a good thing to add hydration.

 

[reba]

Boy it is hard listening to all the opinions, but I think you can give the most weight to whomever(s) has the most experience - which here my bet would be on Catwoman and Stefan. 

Everyone is well intentioned, but, for example, I've only done this once - and I'm eager to share what I learned - but my experience is a sliver compared to people who have done this for years.

If you want a kindred spirit in regards to the sheer stress of it all I'm there for ya. 

 

[catwoman707]

 
@StefanZ

I think I'd be able to manage it. Maybe an hour after their feeding I could give them 1ml, so there's an hour until their next full meal and it won't have a big effect on their appetite. 

@catwoman707

Yeah, I feel like their fur is a little slow to come back after doing the pinch test to check for dehydration, and I'm seriously terrified of them getting dehydrated. 

& honestly I have no idea why they still don't seem to be gaining much weight. I asked the vet and he said that they were in such a bad shape when I brought them in on the first day that they might be so starved I might  not be seeing much growth for the first month but....

I dunno, if they're healthy in other aspects they should be gaining a lot of weight by now, right?

At this point I would disregard what your vet tells you now, that is absolutely the most ridiculous thing he could possibly have told you!

Are they using a bottle well now? Rather than alot of it wiped off of their necks, etc?

The ones weighing 3 1/2 ozs, need to get (and swallow) at least 30 mls per day, or better. (technically figuring it would be 3x8=24+4 (for the 1/2) =28 mls, but they need as much as possible now, I'd even go for more, 32+ a day.

The smallest, go for at least 26, but more if possible.

This is standard so other than going way over that amt, the most you can feed them now is best.

Got to get them gaining right away.

 

[riley1]

A vet told me a better indicator of dehydration is to press on their gums & see if they pink up again right away.  Never tried this on a kitten, however.  If the skin test doesn't work to well I just watch to see if they are bright & active.  Don't know how your vet is about these things, but I would go to the clinic & just ask a tech to check for dehydration.  If they needed to give fluids they charged hardly anything for this.  All vets are different & some want to exam before anything else is done.

 

[dustytiger]

@Reba

Thank you! Honestly, I am maybe going just a tad bonkers. At least my crazy worry for them got me onto here so I can get them proper help, though!

@catwoman707,

I THOUGHT it was utterly crazy when I heard it! He even told me to expect one or two of them to die, and I honestly lost 90% of my faith in him. If it were a good treatment, I wouldn't have to brace myself for two of them to die while following instructions!

Also, they drink the milk very neatly, actually. Ever since I switched to bottle feeding instead of syringe feeding there's been hardly a drop that escapes them.

Seeing as they're a week old now, though, wouldn't the bigger ones be able to drink 5ml instead of four? Though, maybe I should just keep the smallest on four...

@Riley1,

Thanks! I'll give it a shot. They seem fairly active, they're eager to eat at feeding time. I'm mainly worried for the two black ones, because they're not as energetic as the other three, but they've been like that since the very beginning and have quite a large amount of fight in them when they're picked up at least. Tbh, I'm currently trying to find a new vet. I really can't rely on this one as much as I had thought I could.

 

[StefanZ]

Re the two different goat milks variations you have access to, Puppy and Kitten.  I looked now at the link about PetAg -  KMR, and the ratio there is  lower fat content than in the Puppy variation.  Thus, the kitten variation seems to be more alike PetAg....

It seems thus, if you dont have enough with PegAg / KMR powder, use the kitten variations as back up. And the puppy variaton as your third hand choice. But you may surely use the Puppy variation if you decide they need more fat.

I had never met this problem in sharp situation; if  there wasnt KMR or other good kmr, there was goat milk, raw or bottled...   In the rare occasions where there was only goat powder milk, so we used this goat milk, and  that  was it.    I always though the Poland produced brand was very alike the real thing and it was roughly what the kittens got.