Nico-Wasting away, help

white shadow · Feb 27, 2016

nicosasha said:
....So far, she advises letting him go as organs are shutting down........

WHAT??? I don't believe I'm reading this.

On what basis is she making that statement ? I'm sorry, but this is just beyond the pale. NO competent Veterinarian would proclaim that without examining the cat and having a supporting blood chemistry workup.

It may be that she is 'mirroring' back to you the unfocused messages you've been giving us:

I am not sure i can do this, it breaks my heart.... why is he not responding??
He is getting worse.

I am sure his liver must be a mess.

My poor cat, i cant stop crying....

Will he ever fully recover,or am i prolonging his suffering? On the other hand if we euthanize him.....

None of that is nor will help him get through this.

I'm sounding very 'cold' here - it's NOT to criticize you nor your natural emotional reactions to what's going on. It IS meant to help you regain your focus on the facts before you.

I've been where you seem to be right now. It is often overwhelming - it certainly was for me.

Is there anyone whom you implicitly trust who might be able to help you assess the facts that are 'on the table' ?

Just as an example, it's only been 14 hours since you returned from his receiving the antibiotic shot.....you certainly should NOT be expecting that to have cured the infection by now. You were told that many cats appear to worsen after receiving Convenia - that this is "normal" - yet, it seems that you didn't "get" any of that when you posted "he's getting worse".

Now I've just read your update......unless she's outright refusing to give you the a/d, "get it and feed it" would be my advice.

And, as for

If things go downhill during the weekend, we take him to ER, most likely to be put to sleep

It sounds like you are inclined to predetermine the outcome here - without regard to allowing every opportunity for positive change - IF that is happening, then no amount of input here will deter it.

Again, is there anyone you could call upon to act as a cool, calm and collected observer who could keep your focus on the facts ?

zed xyzed · Feb 27, 2016

please try the liver if he is not eating

nicosasha · Feb 27, 2016

Zed Xyzed said:
please try the liver if he is not eating

He did not, but i dont think it is the food, his mouth for some reason, maybe the dental, is clamped shut, the syringe is the only option.
He wants water and broth, and he dunks his face into bowl but does not open mouth to drink, he just gets his whiskers wet
i dont think he will open his mouth, i will switch back to fancy feast broth, as liquid it moves to back of throat and he swallows atleast some of it.

Any other liquid diet ideas? I tried blending in cat food, but he only wants pure liquid.

nicosasha · Feb 27, 2016

White Shadow said:
WHAT??? I don't believe I'm reading this.

On what basis is she making that statement ? I'm sorry, but this is just beyond the pale. NO competent Veterinarian would proclaim that without examining the cat and having a supporting blood chemistry workup.

It may be that she is 'mirroring' back to you the unfocused messages you've been giving us:
None of that is nor will help him get through this.

I'm sounding very 'cold' here - it's NOT to criticize you nor your natural emotional reactions to what's going on. It IS meant to help you regain your focus on the facts before you.

I've been where you seem to be right now. It is often overwhelming - it certainly was for me.

Is there anyone whom you implicitly trust who might be able to help you assess the facts that are 'on the table' ?

Just as an example, it's only been 14 hours since you returned from his receiving the antibiotic shot.....you certainly should NOT be expecting that to have cured the infection by now. You were told that many cats appear to worsen after receiving Convenia - that this is "normal" - yet, it seems that you didn't "get" any of that when you posted "he's getting worse".

Now I've just read your update......unless she's outright refusing to give you the a/d, "get it and feed it" would be my advice.

And, as for
It sounds like you are inclined to predetermine the outcome here - without regard to allowing every opportunity for positive change - IF that is happening, then no amount of input here will deter it.

Again, is there anyone you could call upon to act as a cool, calm and collected observer who could keep your focus on the facts ?

Sorry i missed this post. I do agree we just started supportive on thu, so today is too early. Will wait till monday atleast, i will continue trying the various feeding options.

catwoman707 · Feb 27, 2016

Wow, just got caught up here........

If it were me I would stop pain meds, this is causing a mask of how he really is doing, and we can't tell how much of his weak state is caused by it.

I think the only possible pain he may actually be in would be from his tooth, however he has been dealing with that for some time already, otherwise it's impossible to know whether he really is 'shutting down' or he is drugged.

I know for sure though he is very weak from lack of food and nutrition. This alone in his state is very bad as you know.

Does he look at you?

Shutting down looks like a blank stare at nothing, rapid breathing follwed by slow, gasp type breathing.

If you are not seeing this then he is not there and still has hope.

Honey it doesn't sound like you are able to get food in to him that he desperately needs now, so please hospitalize him, even 2 days will help him at this point, he needs an IV for fluids and antibiotics and nutrition, ASAP.

nicosasha · Feb 27, 2016

catwoman707 said:
Wow, just got caught up here........

If it were me I would stop pain meds, this is causing a mask of how he really is doing, and we can't tell how much of his weak state is caused by it.
I think the only possible pain he may actually be in would be from his tooth, however he has been dealing with that for some time already, otherwise it's impossible to know whether he really is 'shutting down' or he is drugged.

I know for sure though he is very weak from lack of food and nutrition. This alone in his state is very bad as you know.
Does he look at you?
Shutting down looks like a blank stare at nothing, rapid breathing follwed by slow, gasp type breathing.

If you are not seeing this then he is not there and still has hope.

Honey it doesn't sound like you are able to get food in to him that he desperately needs now, so please hospitalize him, even 2 days will help him at this point, he needs an IV for fluids and antibiotics and nutrition, ASAP.

Thank you catwoman for your kind words, they made me tear up.
I gave bup in the morning at 5 am, nothing since then. He howled a bit now, but otherwise, ok, but he never showed any signs of pain, which is why we are here. Apart from tooth, i think the pancreatitis will hurt as well?

He is lying down and staring ahead, but when we get in front he looks at us and blinks. He is alert when he moves, he wants to, but falls at every step, his legs are unable to support him or he gets dizzy, dont know. Breathing is slow but steady.

Agree feeding is critical, and with him keeping jaws shut, i dont see any other option than broth, which he actually loves, when he swallows he twitches his tail and he tried to get to the bowl. I understand it wont meet his nutrition needs, but maybe get him through till he decides to open his mouth?

I completely agree that a feeding tube will help his recovery but both my husband and vet both think that it is for me and not him, and it is not in his best interests. And we are looking at 4-5k (i posted costs upthread) for 2-3 days of hospitalization, which is cost prohibitive as well. And i am not really clear on his long term prognosis.
If only he would open his mouth and flick his tounge on the puree or water, we will be over the hump. But he refuses any mechanical movement of the mouth, maybe maybe the antibiotic will help slowly. I askedvet about clavamox she said we need to wait atleast two days for the convenia side effects to subside and not overload his system.

nicosasha · Feb 27, 2016

Is there a melt in the mouth kindof high protien food?
When i stick in the syringe, i was able tocrunch in a few bits of temptations treats, which he is holding, but if it melted he would swallow.

catwoman707 · Feb 27, 2016

There is a high calorie, high protein gel in a tube that is a nutritional supplement for cats who aren't eating enough.

Nutri-cal and many others.

Might be worth a try.

catwoman707 · Feb 27, 2016

Give him all the broth he wants, any other broth too, and tuna water. Anything he will take in is helpful.

I understand pancreatitis is more of a discomfort then actual pain.

I'd stop the bup to be able to see his behavior better. He sounds awfully unstable, and not sure if this is due to the bup or lack of food/nutrition.

catwoman707 · Feb 27, 2016

I wonder if the vet would show you how to tube feed him, it might be hell getting it in, but he doesn't sound like he will struggle too awfully bad either with the help of your husband.

This is a piece of tube that is the same as the clear, soft tubing you would see on an IV drip, or a fish tank's air supply.

I don't know, you would know better if you have the nerve to do this or if the vet thinks it might help.

Or how much of a struggle he will give you trying to put it down his throat too.

Once down past the back of his tongue and beginning of his throat it doesn't bother so much, it's getting it down past that point that he will fight.

Why doesn't she run one through his nose? No anesthesia needed.

nicosasha · Feb 27, 2016

catwoman707 said:
There is a high calorie, high protein gel in a tube that is a nutritional supplement for cats who aren't eating enough.
Nutri-cal and many others.
Might be worth a try.

Firstly I have good news, since I posted at 1 pm unable to feed puree, I was able to dilute the heck out the puree with the broth,make it broth like and so far in two 1 hr long feeding each, i have been able to give Nico one 2.5 ozjar of gerber baby turkey meat puree! And he has been slurping it up, 30+ tsp in all.

At this rate in 4-6 feedings day and night, I hope to give him two 2.5 oz jars a day. I will post how it goes, but I am very very hopeful.

I had to give bup, my husband would not agree to Nico bring either in pain or hungry, which are his criteria for quality of life. Hopefully he can wean off bup by tomorrow. I have made vet appt at noon on Monday, maybe we can get new antibiotics by then which should remove all pain.

Fingers crossed.

Catwoman, I found and will order nutri cal on amazon now, can you please tell me a probiotic name as well,is fortiflora good or SIMEN Pureall? While browsing i also saw liquid supplements like Abbot clinicare, catsure etc, are they worth trying to put calories in to Nico, any side effects?

Thanks!

nicosasha · Feb 27, 2016

Nico ate one more jar, should i stick to 2 jars a day or should i go more? If so how much, each jar is 2.5 oz of pure meat.

How to deal with litter box, he gets in, cannot stand and collapses head down with litter all over his mouth and eyes, i had to pick out from his eyeballs. He does not like me holding him when he is in the box.

zed xyzed · Feb 27, 2016

feed him as much as you can, the more the better, how many calories is each jar. An adult cat needs about 30 calories per pound per day

nicosasha · Feb 27, 2016

Zed Xyzed said:
feed him as much as you can, the more the better, how many calories is each jar. An adult cat needs about 30 calories per pound per day

Thanks, jar is 80 calories, Nico is now less than 8 lbs, so atleast 3 cans sounds right. I will give him one early in the morning.

catwoman707 · Feb 27, 2016

nicosasha said:
Firstly I have good news, since I posted at 1 pm unable to feed puree, I was able to dilute the heck out the puree with the broth,make it broth like and so far in two 1 hr long feeding each, i have been able to give Nico one 2.5 ozjar of gerber baby turkey meat puree! And he has been slurping it up, 30+ tsp in all.

At this rate in 4-6 feedings day and night, I hope to give him two 2.5 oz jars a day. I will post how it goes, but I am very very hopeful.

I had to give bup, my husband would not agree to Nico bring either in pain or hungry, which are his criteria for quality of life. Hopefully he can wean off bup by tomorrow. I have made vet appt at noon on Monday, maybe we can get new antibiotics by then which should remove all pain.

Fingers crossed.

Catwoman, I found and will order nutri cal on amazon now, can you please tell me a probiotic name as well,is fortiflora good or SIMEN Pureall? While browsing i also saw liquid supplements like Abbot clinicare, catsure etc, are they worth trying to put calories in to Nico, any side effects?

Thanks!

Amazon has an outstanding probiotic called Nexabiotic, (15 billion CFU) that will help as replacing the gut flora that the covenia has now stripped away, and it also contains anti-inflammatory ingredients, like S. Boulardi, I would start with 1 full capsule per day, then tapering off to 1/2 per day.

This is about the best probiotic you can buy!

I thought that the baby food is about 60 cals per jar. He would be doing great to eat at least 2 jars a day, plus the nutri-cal and the Nexabiotic.

He should be ready for an oral antibiotic by Monday, actually he needs it for his tooth.

nicosasha · Feb 28, 2016

catwoman707 said:
Amazon has an outstanding probiotic called Nexabiotic, (15 billion CFU) that will help as replacing the gut flora that the covenia has now stripped away, and it also contains anti-inflammatory ingredients, like S. Boulardi, I would start with 1 full capsule per day, then tapering off to 1/2 per day.
This is about the best probiotic you can buy!

I thought that the baby food is about 60 cals per jar. He would be doing great to eat at least 2 jars a day, plus the nutri-cal and the Nexabiotic.
He should be ready for an oral antibiotic by Monday, actually he needs it for his tooth.

Thanks catwoman, I ordered, should be getting on monday.

He finished half of his 3rd jar now, since 1 pm sat, so in around 12 hrs. I checked label again, the turkey is 80 calories and chicken is 100 calories. He is able to finish a jar feeding in a little over an hour, he wont use his mouth, he sucks it in with his breath.

I guess now the main problem is his inability to stand likely due to convenia. Ataxia is a known side effect?
And his inability to use litter box due to this, any ideas? He falls head first down.

nicosasha · Feb 28, 2016

Nico finshed his 1/2 jar for breakfast.

Not able to move, I read that IV fluids can flush convenia out, is that something I should ask my vet tomorrow? Any other ways to get convenia out?

nicosasha · Feb 28, 2016

To clarify, when i say not able to move, he can still flip, scoot, rotate etc

He cannot stand or walk, but i just realized he cannot even sit on his legs. So either a balance or some nerve damage to hind legs? I have called ER to discuss this outcome, since while waiting at ER he was able to jump out of his carrier and walk.

I can't imagine how twisted this is, the vet could not identify his dental and declared supportive treatments are not working and time to let go.

The ER did find his dental, and I was so relieved, but now he is damaged by possible medication side effects. He has lost his coordination, voice has changed and is looking dazed.

I am thinking his side effects are worse since he was hungry, infected, weak and unstable when he went in. I really hope this is temporary and wears off.

zed xyzed · Feb 28, 2016

I read that convenia can cause anemia, You really should get his blood work tested asap. It actually sounds like very bad anemia.

nicosasha · Feb 28, 2016

Zed Xyzed said:
I read that convenia can cause anemia, You really should get his blood work tested asap.

Right I read it can cause hemolytic anemia which is life threatening, i will talk to ER, they are supposed to call me back at 10.

Nico-Wasting away, help

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