Vegan cats?

Yes, as you may note, I wrote there is "evidence," not proof. And yes, the scientists that published the report are speculating, because of the limited data. Which is exactly what we have with bird predation studies: small sample sizes.

It also seems having let humans into an ecosystem, has turned quite harmful!!!

Yes, the most dangerous, invasive species of all....

They are speculating yes because of the limited data and their methods of gathering data was incredibly faulty. They also claimed that there were other factors they could not count for. There are a lot of reasons why that article cannot be even used as evidence because there are so many errors. The theory of evolution and global warming face scrutiny even though they are backed up with monumental amounts of facts. It is dangerous to say that cats don't have as much of an impact without actual facts and data. Also the small sample size is a huge problem. Not only because of the small number of birds but the fact that they only took birds from one area. They should be taking birds from multiple urban areas. There are more than one little thing wrong with the article. It's just a train wreck after train wreck even with my somewhat limited knowledge of ecology and biology. The article is merely a hypothesis that have no scientific ground. I really hope they can start doing actual research to see what the facts are. 

Humans are not an invasive species. Humans have been around for a very very long time but we are a very DESTRUCTIVE species. It's so sad how we can send a man to the moon but we can't stop the destruction of our planet. We can't even stop  making surplus food and throw it out. 

I believe it is time for you to share scientific data on estimated time it will take for adapting then. They are here so lets move forward. And also educated guesses on what would happen if they suddenly disappeared. The good also with the bad impacts they have had on some ecosystems. Nature seems to only know how to adapt. It will. 

Hopps said:

...It is dangerous to say that cats don't have as much of an impact without actual facts and data.

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Or the flip-side, my pet peeve: it's equally dangerous to say they have a meaningful impact without actual facts and data. Predation is NOT impact.

...Just as correlation is not causation.

The authors of all the cat predation studies used to develop population-level predation estimates ALL caution that it's not appropriate to use their data for that purpose, or, in the case of Woods et al. (2003), even though they develop predation estimates for the entire UK based on their study, they cite the cautions and state that predation does not equate to impact. And yet anti-cat conservation ecologists / biologists in the U.S. use this type of data to project enormous predation rates in a spurious manner. At stake is the implementation of TNR.

pocho said:

I believe it is time for you to share scientific data on estimated time it will take for adapting then. They are here so lets move forward. And also educated guesses on what would happen if they suddenly disappeared. The good also with the bad impacts they have had on some ecosystems. Nature seems to only know how to adapt. It will.

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Yes, it is called mesopredator release; and the concept of a trophic cascade with the removal of the cat from an island environment is not just theory. http://www.wildlifeextra.com/go/news/macquarie-island.html#cr

I have always gotten a kick out of stories, only writ by humans of course, of the impact of... well any animal, and the problems they cause.  From animals eating other animals (that humans like to see/watch), or animals eating/ruining plants, as humans like to perceive.  From animals threatening humans.. should we foray into their territory.  Or, from animals damaging and tearing up land, pooping on land - making our lives so miserable! Yet humans think they can transform biology into products and business laws that support disposable consumerism, make intricately structured aggression legal i.e. the military, which results in toxic chemicals and large explosions simply to make a point of warning another human not to come 'round.  Humans build un-earthy homes that sequester our poop into concentrated sewage plants, pour off our disposable products and manmade chemicals into the animals' yard and their ocean-homes, steal energy for convenience-sake by contaminating animals' drinking water, and air to breathe. Build electronic towers that electrocute as many birds as they are worried about little cats attacking.   AND, AND... there is no sign of stopping us humans from, writing about the problems animals cause.

lbailey said:

 
I have always gotten a kick out of stories, only writ by humans of course, of the impact of... well any animal, and the problems they cause.  From animals eating other animals (that humans like to see/watch), or animals eating/ruining plants, as humans like to perceive.  From animals threatening humans.. should we foray into their territory.  Or, from animals damaging and tearing up land, pooping on land - making our lives so miserable! Yet humans think they can transform biology into products and business laws that support disposable consumerism, make intricately structured aggression legal i.e. the military, which results in toxic chemicals and large explosions simply to make a point of warning another human not to come 'round.  Humans build un-earthy homes that sequester our poop into concentrated sewage plants, pour off our disposable products and manmade chemicals into the animals' yard and their ocean-homes, steal energy for convenience-sake by contaminating animals' drinking water, and air to breathe. Build electronic towers that electrocute as many birds as they are worried about little cats attacking.   AND, AND... there is no sign of stopping us humans from, writing about the problems animals cause.

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Yes that is incredibly sad. People always say "oh nature will adapt" or along that and they go on destorying the environment. I had* friends that believed us deforesting the rainforest wasn't a big deal because "nature will adapt" and they don't realize trees and ecosystems don't adapt in a course of a few weeks. What's even worse are the people that say "well if we kill all the wild animals it's ok because we can breed them in zoos" or "I'll be dead anyways so it doesn't matter hahaha"

LDG said:

Or the flip-side, my pet peeve: it's equally dangerous to say they have a meaningful impact without actual facts and data. Predation is NOT impact.

...Just as correlation is not causation.

The authors of all the cat predation studies used to develop population-level predation estimates ALL caution that it's not appropriate to use their data for that purpose, or, in the case of Woods et al. (2003), even though they develop predation estimates for the entire UK based on their study, they cite the cautions and state that predation does not equate to impact. And yet anti-cat conservation ecologists / biologists in the U.S. use this type of data to project enormous predation rates in a spurious manner. At stake is the implementation of TNR.
Yes, it is called mesopredator release; and the concept of a trophic cascade with the removal of the cat from an island environment is not just theory. http://www.wildlifeextra.com/go/news/macquarie-island.html#cr

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As an animal lover I definitely agree with you. It is incredibly ridiculous on how far animal hating people will go! I cannot believe people thought of trapping and killing ferals. I'm so glad we trap and neuter them here. It's so sad how there are so many people out there that won't take responsibilities for their pets. I know a lot of people that don't even know feral and house cats are the same species. What's even worse are some people I know leave their cats behind to fend for themselves because "they know how to hunt." It makes me so mad! I agree with you 110% with it being as dangerous to say predation is an impact without facts. It seems like some people just want a band aid solution instead of getting to the root of the problem. A great example is PETA. The US branch at least is ANTI PETS. They believe all domestic animal are suffering because they're not in a natural environment and they would rather euthanize 95% of the dogs and cats they rescue. Truly disgusting.

If you want to save the planet Neuter yourself like i did and convince others. Leave the cats alone and let them take over. They will do a far better job. Our time here on earth has been relatively short to the life of the actual planet. She has been through alot even before we came on the scene. And try to remember when you are upset in your studies, 'this too shall pass'. Worlds inside worlds, realms unseen and forces at work science has no study for. The story is bigger than anyone's statistics. Let hope be the savage invasive species that completely takes over and devastates all fear and doubt in your heart.

It's nice to see two vegans on this thread...count me in as the third.  When I had my first two cats about 8 years ago (when I wasn't even vegetarian, but considering it), it crossed my mind that I could also transition the cats to a vegan diet. Me and my girlfriend at the time discussed it, but we decided that we shouldn't force our own lifestyle on our cats. For me though, having somewhat of a philosophy background, it was more about the human's capacity for making moral choices, while cats (and probably any other animal) acts on instinct and cannot tell "right from wrong". Plus, like others said, they're naturally carnivores and transitioning them to a vegan diet probably wouldn't supply them with all the necessary nutrients.  

Now I have Cloud as seen on my avatar, and he is definitely not vegan

FreeRadicals said:

 
It's nice to see two vegans on this thread...count me in as the third.  When I had my first two cats about 8 years ago (when I wasn't even vegetarian, but considering it), it crossed my mind that I could also transition the cats to a vegan diet. Me and my girlfriend at the time discussed it, but we decided that we shouldn't force our own lifestyle on our cats. For me though, having somewhat of a philosophy background, it was more about the human's capacity for making moral choices, while cats (and probably any other animal) acts on instinct and cannot tell "right from wrong". Plus, like others said, they're naturally carnivores and transitioning them to a vegan diet probably wouldn't supply them with all the necessary nutrients.  

Now I have Cloud as seen on my avatar, and he is definitely not vegan us

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Nice to meet you! It was actually my carnivore cats that brought me to veganism believe it or not. They came to me as a mystery and I so wanted and still do want to know their reality and truth. Their torn down any  hierarchical thoughts I had towards other species. My love for them started spreading to all other animals and it was no longer possible to deny the consciousness in my fellow earthlings. Before them I was someone just doing time on earth like a visitor. Through them I became connected to the earth as my home, taking walks in the woods and not missing sunrises. The world opened up and my senses are to this day awakening. I feel they don't live in the realm of 'wrong or right' as if before the fall of paradise. That is why paradoxically, I seem to have no aversion to them hunting. It all looks innocent, and mysterious. I don't even know what I am seeing when confronted with those images, only know human eyes are far from understanding. All this could sound dramatic but it is true. They have completely changed my life and my world. But I guess that is what love can do and I want to love them for all of what they truly are. 

I am a vegetarian of five years transitioning to vegan. My cats are not vegetarian or vegan and would never want to be! I have to admit it does bother me to buy meat and to see them with dead mice, but I put my personal feelings aside because it is their carnivorous nature, just as I feel it is in my nature not to harm animals. I don't even kill bugs, but of course I've done some flea genocides. My babies come first, and I would never be without cats.

Shame on PETA for promoting this diet and opposing TNR for feral cats. This is why I don't support them.

I know a couple vegans and they both feed their cats fish-based food only, but I'm not too comfortable with that.

Fish or cow or duck, they all feel pain and have certain levels of consciousness. What's their purpose of feeding only fish?

As much as I disagree with PETA on their domestic pet policies, I can understand where they are coming from and I don't like to generalise my opposition to this policy against PETA in general.

On other issues, the world certainly needs an organisation (many actually) like peta to oppose other sorts of animal abuse and slavery...and torture. ...

I donate to specific PETA campaigns like veganism, or specific targtted campaigns to stop certain shipments of animals to testing laboratories or to stop rabbit live skinning and "pealing" or anti furr and leather farms or ...or... or.... the list is long.

Our pets receive the most of our care and love that we have for animals in general, and there a lot of cute innocent abused animals out there siffering much more than homeless and geral cats and dogs that more urgently need some of our support and sympathy...

But yes be it PETA or anyone else. Nothing givea them the right to kill cats in rhe name of animal welfare

I have often wondered if many of the ridiculous stances and outrageous statements from PETA are just a way of drawing attention to themselves. The whole 'no publicity is bad publicity ' theory? Because much of what they promote is utter nonsense and the exact opposite of what animal lovers believe.

Before I read this thread, the most ridiculous idea I came across was that eating and using honey is not humane because it 'exploits the bees.'

Happybird, it is not a nice thing to scrutinise people's believes and ethics - which are often based on experiences and world view.

When I typed this earlier, we were typing at the same time. After I posted, I saw your comment and was hoping you did not think that I was responding directly to your comment because I was not.

I just cannot get behind an organization that thinks keeping dogs and cats as pets is inhumane and that those animals would be better off dead. Or that thinks that TNR programs are cruel. It is far more cruel to continue to allow the pet population to explode and to have the unwanted animals gassed to death at shelters.

The whole idea of forcing a cat to be vegetarian amounts to abuse in my opinion, and is certainly not good stewardship or something to be advocated by a supposed animal rights organization. I have no problem with human vegetarians or vegans, it is a choice. When cats choose their own food, they choose meat. It is simply nature and how the food chain works. The same thing with the honey- it is here for us to eat.

PETA also confuses and concerns me because they seem to be overly interested in gaining publicity for themselves by making shocking statements or publishing shocking photos of abuse. They also insert themselves into the court cases of regular citizens without being contacted or asked to participate and often make an absolute mess of the proceedings. Their true intentions seem rather murky. This site has some very interesting articles concerning PETA's activities: petakillsanimals.com. According to this site, if PETA's Virginia shelter used their $36 million yearly budget to become a no kill shelter and stop using the money to fund publicity stunts, they would not have to euthanize 80-90% of the animals that enter their custody every year

Oh I totally get you on the PETA part. The good thinf is you can support case by case. And I personal never go close their domestic pet projects.

My comment was about the Honey issue. Honey farms can/are inhumane. It seema hard for us to conceptualise that because bees are tiny special animals thag we dont fully understand or communcate with. There are tons of info about how they suffer for the honey and how they are abused....and at the ens of the day it is still an exploitation of bees for economic purposes. I.e. slavery.

And yes. Peta is largely confusing. And their wprk is different from country to amother. peta US beimg the most controversial. I am on Peta France's newsletter. They just launched a project to provide stray and homeless dogs with wwarm winter dog houses!!!
And just last month, thei campaign lead to getting the military to stop shooting pigs for training!

I mean, I just just don't generalise because some of what they do is needed.

But I agree I can't imagine any excuse to kill cats and I cant understand tthewbole concept of kill shelters. ..it is a linguistic contradiction to start with.

I don't understand how bee farms are inhumane. It's not like you can force a bee to make honey. Being "slaves" is in their nature. Most of them are worker bees.

molldee said:

I don't understand how bee farms are inhumane. It's not like you can force a bee to make honey. Being "slaves" is in their nature. Most of them are worker bees.

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The principle of  veganism is that we do not take things from animals, "humane or no", because they're not ours to take. It's also a dangerous line of thought to suggest that any sentient being is inherently a slave, because while many bees are worker bees, they do have a specific agenda that does NOT include feeding human needs. In any event, I can't remember the specifics, but I know bees are routinely gassed to lull them into sleep so their honey can be stolen, etc. There were other hurtful processes that I can't remember now. It's not a humane process; none of the animal husbandry businesses are.
 

In terms of my animals, though, I do feed them meat. In fact, I feed them raw. I hate doing it, but that is their natural diet. A large part of veganism is this notion that we are vegans because we don't need to eat meat and cause cruelty to other animals. But cats DO need it. And dogs, I'm finding, do as well. I did feed my dog vegan for a short time, as they are omnivores. But she started eating poop out of the cat litter box, which I took to be a sign of deficiency, so I gave her meat again. All is well. I feel a little more comfortable experimenting with a dog's diet, for a short time anyway, than I do with a cat's. Cats are such delicate creatures, and the littlest things can throw their body into a state of irreparable damage.

thevegancuddler said:

 
The principle of  veganism is that we do not take things from animals, "humane or no", because they're not ours to take. It's also a dangerous line of thought to suggest that any sentient being is inherently a slave, because while many bees are worker bees, they do have a specific agenda that does NOT include feeding human needs. In any event, I can't remember the specifics, but I know bees are routinely gassed to lull them into sleep so their honey can be stolen, etc. There were other hurtful processes that I can't remember now. It's not a humane process; none of the animal husbandry businesses are.
 

In terms of my animals, though, I do feed them meat. In fact, I feed them raw. I hate doing it, but that is their natural diet. A large part of veganism is this notion that we are vegans because we don't need to eat meat and cause cruelty to other animals. But cats DO need it. And dogs, I'm finding, do as well. I did feed my dog vegan for a short time, as they are omnivores. But she started eating poop out of the cat litter box, which I took to be a sign of deficiency, so I gave her meat again. All is well. I feel a little more comfortable experimenting with a dog's diet, for a short time anyway, than I do with a cat's. Cats are such delicate creatures, and the littlest things can throw their body into a state of irreparable damage.

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The 'not taking' principle has been complicated for me when dealing with the ferals and pets in my life. I am, ofcourse, against trap and euthanize. One alternative is trap neuter release. I find it a very serious decision to take away an animals ovaries or testes. Making sure over population data is accurate was important. I just couldn't do it if I didn't see cats suffering or a population exploding....Their numbers had to be a problem to them not because people don't like them spraying.... on the other side, I have two indoor cats(pets) and I have come to accept the fact I am taking something from them. They can not live out their full nature. In an ideal world I think cats are an animal that should live along side us humans but not as kept pets without choice. I believe when possible THEY should dictate how much security they want from us and how much freedom they want...but it is not an ideal world and where i live i can not let mine outside. So I have given my apt over to cat trees and tunnels and lots of interactive play, sometimes live crickets let loose for hunting. And the ferals outside I monitor and try to help maintain their lifestyle to the best of ability. What is so amazing and beautiful about this animal is at one moment it wants to curl up and sleep on your stomach purring the next it is tearing the head of a chipmunk off. I have ferals that roll on their backs for me to play with and crawl up my back when crouched down to feed them. These lovelies tread such a wonder fine line keeping their paws in both worlds of  sweet domesticity and wild WIld fire. And I do believe they like to play with are definitions and categories we put them in.