What could this wincing/quivering be?

[kauzmo]

I did just insert it farther and got a 98.4 He does live in the cooler basement and he got his amlodipine an hour ago, not sure if that affects anything and who knows if the calibration is a degree off or not with these things. At what point do I get concerned about it being too low?

 

[IndyJones]

Be very careful with rectile thermometers, it is easy to damage the colen if you push too far or too hard.

 

[stephanietx]

My vet told me to use an ear thermometer because it's easier and it's pretty accurate.

 

[white shadow]

.
K kauzmo - have a read of the following before you go any further:

If you and your vet have determined that a rectally-delivered remedy is suitable, remember that any object inserted into the anus should be lubricated. Some remedies provide their own lubrication or are pre-lubricated, others require us to lubricate them. Vaseline has been the traditional lubricant but a water-based personal lubricant such as plain K-Y jelly may be a better choice, if on hand, since it more closely mimics the natural lubrication of mucous membranes. Note that only plain lubricants should be used, nothing scented or enhanced, no mint or chocolate flavors, no chemicals added for 'warming' or to 'tingle on contact' please!​

​

Understanding the construction of the anus will make the job of inserting a suitable and suitably lubricated object, whether a suppository or a thermometer, into a cat's anus much easier. The anus has not one but two sphincters. You could think of this as a storm porch on the back of the house. The outer sphincter is under voluntary control, the inner sphincter is not. Normally all traffic is one-way which means the anus does not expect traffic in reverse, something coming in rather than going out, so initially it is a bit of a surprise. Gentle steady pressure causes the outer sphincter to relax, to 'answer the door'. The cat also appreciates this approach. No one wants someone to come busting through the door when a polite but insistent knocking will result in a warmer welcome.​

​

A cold object causes involuntary muscle contraction so prewarm a thermometer, just enough to take the chill off but not enough to affect its reading.​

​

Remember to talk with your cat. Show your cat what you plan to use and explain why and what you plan to do. Talk as from one adult to another, which this relationship is after all. Your cat is an intelligent being and while not every word will be understood, cats pick up on our intent and our intent informs our action. If we think, for instance, that taking a temperature or using a micro-enema requires us to 'shove something up a cat's ass,' that is exactly what we will do with predictably negative results. If, instead, we imagine using gentle steady pressure and visualize gliding in smoothly, that is more likely to happen because our movements will follow. It is far easier to work with a cooperative cat; take the time to elicit cooperation. Cooperation is the kinder and safer approach.​

REF: FelineConstipation.org - Treatment of An Acutely Constipated Cat​

Now, that comes from a reliable and well-informed website about feline constipation. One of the points I did not include there is that, IF there's ever a possibility that Kauzmo is constipated, you should not attempt to take his temperature rectally. And, safe to say that, if you've read through that snippet, you'll have understood (and learned) that the thermometer should be pre-warmed and must be pre-lubricated, and that there are two sphincters to go through. Not mentioned in there is that you should also, with a finger, pre-lubricate the outside of the anus, the 'doorway'.


[Edited to remove question about need to take temperature]
.

 

[kauzmo]

.
K kauzmo - have a read of the following before you go any further:

If you and your vet have determined that a rectally-delivered remedy is suitable, remember that any object inserted into the anus should be lubricated. Some remedies provide their own lubrication or are pre-lubricated, others require us to lubricate them. Vaseline has been the traditional lubricant but a water-based personal lubricant such as plain K-Y jelly may be a better choice, if on hand, since it more closely mimics the natural lubrication of mucous membranes. Note that only plain lubricants should be used, nothing scented or enhanced, no mint or chocolate flavors, no chemicals added for 'warming' or to 'tingle on contact' please!​

​

Understanding the construction of the anus will make the job of inserting a suitable and suitably lubricated object, whether a suppository or a thermometer, into a cat's anus much easier. The anus has not one but two sphincters. You could think of this as a storm porch on the back of the house. The outer sphincter is under voluntary control, the inner sphincter is not. Normally all traffic is one-way which means the anus does not expect traffic in reverse, something coming in rather than going out, so initially it is a bit of a surprise. Gentle steady pressure causes the outer sphincter to relax, to 'answer the door'. The cat also appreciates this approach. No one wants someone to come busting through the door when a polite but insistent knocking will result in a warmer welcome.​

​

A cold object causes involuntary muscle contraction so prewarm a thermometer, just enough to take the chill off but not enough to affect its reading.​

​

Remember to talk with your cat. Show your cat what you plan to use and explain why and what you plan to do. Talk as from one adult to another, which this relationship is after all. Your cat is an intelligent being and while not every word will be understood, cats pick up on our intent and our intent informs our action. If we think, for instance, that taking a temperature or using a micro-enema requires us to 'shove something up a cat's ass,' that is exactly what we will do with predictably negative results. If, instead, we imagine using gentle steady pressure and visualize gliding in smoothly, that is more likely to happen because our movements will follow. It is far easier to work with a cooperative cat; take the time to elicit cooperation. Cooperation is the kinder and safer approach.​

REF: FelineConstipation.org - Treatment of An Acutely Constipated Cat​

Now, that comes from a reliable and well-informed website about feline constipation. One of the points I did not include there is that, IF there's ever a possibility that Kauzmo is constipated, you should not attempt to take his temperature rectally. And, safe to say that, if you've read through that snippet, you'll have understood (and learned) that the thermometer should be pre-warmed and must be pre-lubricated, and that there are two sphincters to go through. Not mentioned in there is that you should also, with a finger, pre-lubricate the outside of the anus, the 'doorway'.


[Edited to remove question about need to take temperature]
.

Thank you for the info! Very good to know. I was gentle and he was being held by another while I did it and used Vaseline but I don't think I'll be doing it again for awhile and let this little guy be while his system is trying to work itself out.

 

[FeebysOwner]

I can't address the temp matter, other than to say that you should be able to run your cat by the vet without an appt. and a tech there could take his temp so you know the true measurement.

But for your question about baby food meat - if you are mainly using it to give him meds, I wouldn't worry about the amount. It is no different than a lot of folks, including me, who use lickable treats and other similar items to administer meds - they too are not nutritionally complete.

If you need to feed it to him to increase his caloric intake and it is more than 10-15% of is daily food, then 2-3 weeks of not getting nutritionally complete food generally isn't considered a problem.

 

[silent meowlook]

Hi.
The shoulder movement with the breathing looks to be breath related.
Not a vet, only speculating here.

I am very concerned that your cat was prescribed Prednisone instead of Prednisolone, since it has been common knowledge in veterinarians that cats need Prednisolone, and not Prednisone. This could be an error made by the staff.

I think that a blood pressure of 170 is still to high, but you don’t ever want to change his miseducation dose without talking to your vet. Retinal detachment from high blood pressure does not repair itself. So sadly the blindness is most likely permanent. Cats do just fine being blind.

If he already has some kidney disease going on, e watchful for deterioration of that after the blood pressure is controlled. Drinking allot could be from the steroids but could also be from worsening of the kidneys.

Not urinating is a big deal that has to be addressed. 18 hours is along time for a cat to go without urinating. Can be easily find the litter box? Can he get into the litter box without difficulty? You might want to change to litter to something that doesn’t clump like the paper pellets. He may be avoiding using the box because it is such an ordeal for him to used it now. Maybe consider something with lower sides. If the box is covered remove the cover as the dust from the litter isn’t good for his lungs.

With all he has going on, you may want to consider a referral to a specialist.

Please keep us posted on how he is doing.

The lip smacking is a sign of nausea.

 

[kauzmo]

Hi.
The shoulder movement with the breathing looks to be breath related.
Not a vet, only speculating here.

I am very concerned that your cat was prescribed Prednisone instead of Prednisolone, since it has been common knowledge in veterinarians that cats need Prednisolone, and not Prednisone. This could be an error made by the staff.

I think that a blood pressure of 170 is still to high, but you don’t ever want to change his miseducation dose without talking to your vet. Retinal detachment from high blood pressure does not repair itself. So sadly the blindness is most likely permanent. Cats do just fine being blind.

If he already has some kidney disease going on, e watchful for deterioration of that after the blood pressure is controlled. Drinking allot could be from the steroids but could also be from worsening of the kidneys.

Not urinating is a big deal that has to be addressed. 18 hours is along time for a cat to go without urinating. Can be easily find the litter box? Can he get into the litter box without difficulty? You might want to change to litter to something that doesn’t clump like the paper pellets. He may be avoiding using the box because it is such an ordeal for him to used it now. Maybe consider something with lower sides. If the box is covered remove the cover as the dust from the litter isn’t good for his lungs.

With all he has going on, you may want to consider a referral to a specialist.

Please keep us posted on how he is doing.

The lip smacking is a sign of nausea.

We have two low profile litter boxes setup and he was finding them no problem, they're in easy open areas and we will sit him by them to try and encourage going. As far as the Prednisone, I've yet to hear why, he's started to taper off, he was on 7 days of 2 pills a day, he's now been on 1 pill a day for 5 days, and starting Wed he'll go to 1 every other day until med is gone, like 6 pills I think. At this point I don't assume they'd switch it to prednisolone if it was a mistake?

 

[kauzmo]

I did just call the vet and ask why about the prednisone since I haven't had an email back, she's out all week. I'm waiting for a vet tech to call back. At this point could there be a lot of irreversible damage done by him taking Prednisone and that's why he's not urinating as often? I feel horrible and like I've over helped him into decline. He's been on it for 11 days, I just wish he was off of it now but I know he has to taper.

 

[kauzmo]

She actually just emailed me back and said prednisone and prednisolone are the same. At this point I don't know what to do. Keep tapering like prescribed and hope it hasn't wrecked him and he bounces back after? She also said she's not concerned about the lack of urination as long as it's full amounts. He went last night at 6pm and it was quite a bit and again at 9 this morning and quite a bit, pretty close to normal volume, he's just missing that 1-2 extra times he use to urinate.

 

[FeebysOwner]

Prednisone and prednisolone have the same effects on the body. in most species, prednisone is very quickly converted to prednisolone by the liver. But a couple of animal species, including horses and cats, cannot efficiently absorb or convert prednisone to prednisolone.

If a cat can't as efficiently convert the former to the latter, I think that means it is not as effective - not that it is causing damage - but still can have the same side effects.

 

[kauzmo]

So, I did just have the vet tech call me, she spoke personally to the medical director and he said both can be used and it's a preference thing at times. I asked the vet tech if just tapering the Prednisone is preferred at this point or if switching midstream to prednisolone while he's tapering down or if tapering off of Prednisone a little quicker would be best, so I said whatever they think is best. The vet tech is going to find out. Guess we'll see what they think/say.

 

[silent meowlook]

Ok. It is up to you what vet you see. But, if this was my cat, I would be getting a second opinion.

What Feeby said is correct. Cats cannot convert the prednisone to Prednisolone. It isn’t like it is toxic to them.

I am sorry your cat and you are going through this.

 

[kauzmo]

Ok. It is up to you what vet you see. But, if this was my cat, I would be getting a second opinion.

What Feeby said is correct. Cats cannot convert the prednisone to Prednisolone. It isn’t like it is toxic to them.

I am sorry your cat and you are going through this.

I did try calling another vet he's been to before but they didn't want to give me any info/guidance without bringing him in.The vet tech called me back after speaking to the vet and said at this point to just stick to the Prednisone while he tapers off. I've liked the place I go to but this is a newer vet and was the only vet available that week when he needed to be seen. The other vet we've seen is no longer there. I think there may be a vet assistant there that has cats and I've seen some positive reviews for her. So his next appt will be with her. Thank you all for the info/advice, hopefully he starts feeling more like himself, he has been enjoying some nice sun the past few days now that it's warming up.

 

[kauzmo]

Update:

Took kauzmo in for an emergency appt with a different vet. She took an ultra sound and X-rays. Fluid build up around heart and lungs. She said it's either heart or could be cancer. She did a blood test to confirm/rule out the heart. It came back positive, so she thinks it's heart and no cancer. I wish the previous vet would've done that blood test cause the previous X-ray showed similar issue and Prednisone prob shouldn't have been prescribed at that point. She also asked without me prompting why it wasn't prednisolone that was prescribed? I said I'd like to know that as well. So I asked point blank what she would do with his age and everything he has going on, she said his vitals actually look good, so let's keep him for the next 24-48 hours, start diuretics to get that fluid out and X-ray to see if it works and then see exactly the heart issue with an echocardiogram and treatment needed. Also stopping the Prednisone immediately, he's been tapering anyways. They'll keep me updated on his condition, I'll be a nervous wreck but he's tough and hasn't given up and I want to give him a chance.

 

[FeebysOwner]

Thanks for the update. This sounds promising, so I am glad you found a second opinion. Continue to keep us posted, please!

 

[iPappy]

Update:

Took kauzmo in for an emergency appt with a different vet. She took an ultra sound and X-rays. Fluid build up around heart and lungs. She said it's either heart or could be cancer. She did a blood test to confirm/rule out the heart. It came back positive, so she thinks it's heart and no cancer. I wish the previous vet would've done that blood test cause the previous X-ray showed similar issue and Prednisone prob shouldn't have been prescribed at that point. She also asked without me prompting why it wasn't prednisolone that was prescribed? I said I'd like to know that as well. So I asked point blank what she would do with his age and everything he has going on, she said his vitals actually look good, so let's keep him for the next 24-48 hours, start diuretics to get that fluid out and X-ray to see if it works and then see exactly the heart issue with an echocardiogram and treatment needed. Also stopping the Prednisone immediately, he's been tapering anyways. They'll keep me updated on his condition, I'll be a nervous wreck but he's tough and hasn't given up and I want to give him a chance.

He's in a good place at the vets hospital. They can keep a close eye on him and give you some much needed time to get some rest, and I'm sure they'll keep you updated as promised!

 

[kauzmo]

What a whirlwind the last 3 hours have been. The vet called after running a full blood panel and his kidneys were shot and he didn't have much time left. We decided to end his suffering earlier this evening. He looked so out of it and we knew. We got him to take some drinks and lick his beloved laxatone before we said goodbye and kissed him and talked to him as they put him to sleep. Hardest thing I've had to do. I'm utterly lost and keep looking for him here at the house, he was such a huge personality and ultimate cuddler and companion, he'd play fetch, even hide and seek and loved being held and loved car rides, he was unreal and a best friend. His kidney levels weren't bad a month ago, I'm kicking myself wondering if the Prednisone kicked his kidneys into full failure.

RIP kauzmo, you're now whole and chasing grasshoppers and enjoying sun baths.

 

[silent meowlook]

Hi. I am very glad you took him in. I think giving him a chance is a good idea. Please continue to update us.

 

[silent meowlook]

We posted at the same time.

With the kidney failure, there was nothing you could do. I am so sorry.

The medications he would need to get and keep the fluid off of his chest would destroy his already damaged kidneys. The fluids he would need for his kidneys would destroy his heart. There really was nothing you could do. It wouldn’t matter even with limitless money, and the best hospitals, there still would be nothing you could do. I am so sorry.

If his blood pressure had been high, it would have masked the kidney disease. If the blood pressure was treated the kidney disease would become apparent. Or, it could have been the medications used to get the fluid off of his chest before.

In order for kidney disease to show on bloodwork, there has to be around 70% of the kidneys not functioning. So, the bloodwork could have been looking normal with him surviving on less than 1/2 kidney function. The duretics that he needed for the heart could have pushed him over the edge.

This is one of those horrible situations that you can only do the kindest thing for him, the most humane, which you have done.

From the pictures, he looks like he had a wonderful life and knew he was so deeply loved. He was very lucky to have such a good home with you.

Please be kind to yourself and allow time to grieve, as this is so hard. Try to let the good memories of him and the silly things he did comfort you.

I know we all share in your grief.