what breed is my new kitten?

[missymotus]

@missymotus, i apologize, i had assumed you read the OP's original topic and at least realized we were not on the color select page of the Crayola Crayon website, a common mistake, let me clarify for you.

On a cat site when folks refer to a blue we are referrencing a possible Russian blue mix, not a color, the breed, my fault in assuming you would not realize this. 

Thank you for clarifying, your post was written as though Blue mix was some kind of breed. I have never, in my years on forums with pedigree cats and breeders heard any use the term Blue Mix to describe a possible breed. 

When looking at an eye color of a cat that's supposed to have certain shade of green eyes when he grows up, you can tell by 12 weeks if the color will be correct (intensity aside).

Thank you, this is indeed what I was talking about

We do?  I don't.  There are self blue cats in many breeds - Persians, RBs, Korats, Burmese, British Shorthair, Orientals are the ones I can think of straight out.  And, of course, there are many many moggies (non pedigrees) that are blue.  A friend has one and in many ways he's a bit like a British Shorthair, but we both know he isn't.  Nor also are all the blue kittens people post photos of here asking if they are an RB.  Some of them look a little like an RB, but that's it.  They are no more RBs than my friends cat is a (very) pet quality British Shorthair.

Exactly, thank you! Also Russians don't just come in blue (over here at least)

Also as a forum user for years I've seen time and again people confusing colours and patterns for breeds. Do you know how many think that tabby for instance is a breed? 

 

[rafm]

Shes gorgeous! We have a blue kitty too and I always chuckle when people ask if he's a Russian Blue....he was born to a stray that made her way to a rescue days before she gave birth. He has a very dense coat with silver ticking on the tips. He's a big handsome boy, but alas, he's a Maggie...a gorgeous one though.

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[StefanZ]

Here is the link to this "perhaps ancient russian blue . alike" I mentioned earlier.   Pretty, no?

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/244490/picked-up-my-new-foster-mom-today#post_3206182

 

[orientalslave]

 alas, he's a Maggie...a gorgeous one though.

Not sure why the 'alas' - as you say he's a very handsome boy.

 

[orientalslave]

Here is the link to this "perhaps ancient russian blue . alike" I mentioned earlier.   Pretty, no?

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/244490/picked-up-my-new-foster-mom-today#post_3206182

Pretty yes, but aren't all girl cats pretty?  Maybe looks a bit like a Russian Blue - maybe not.  Got a photo of a good example of the breed to compare her with?  All the ones I can find are from of the green-eyed modern UK version, not the original Archangel Cat version.

 

[rafm]

Not sure why the 'alas' - as you say he's a very handsome boy.

It wasn't meant in a derogatory way.

 

[bigperm20]

Hey RAFM plz post an album of pics of ur blue kitty. He's beautiful!

 

[graill]

I have been to Russia several times (my country shares an eastern border with it), and we have lots of Russian Blues here (popular breed), "Scandinavian type" and the "new version". They do not look anything like the cat in the first post. The whole head looks off to me. And what does Russia as a country have anything to do with this? Russian Blues as the breed it's know today doesn't even originate from Russia. 

When looking at an eye color of a cat that's supposed to have certain shade of green eyes when he grows up, you can tell by 12 weeks if the color will be correct (intensity aside). And if you want to talk about the original RUS, they had intense copper eyes which haven't been accepted for decades anymore.

(And if it has anything to do with anything, my breed choice is British Shorthair and I'm located in Finland).

Not to derail the OP's thread. Grin.

NorthernGlow, i am thinking you misread a portion of my post. The references i made WERE to the original Russian cat that does not exist outside Russia and on a side note is still not allowed to be exported, regardless of what folks want to call the current faux RB for arguments sake, and not referencing the OP's cat that "looks" like the faux RB mix of some type from a purely tabletop troubleshooting point of view. Not being there to look at the OP's cat we can all only guess and look at clues from the pics provided.

As for the copper color comment on the original Archangel you are quite correct. Another color is is a dark tan with black tinges, now that is something to see as i have never seen this in another cat in 20 plus years. They also have heads built like tanks, a coat that does not have any hilights, and a nose ramp area that is distinctive of that particulary cat, very wide set eyes and the ramp moves way up between them, adds to the wedge or blocky look. If only they would release the restrictions or get some breeders going in Russia that are legit we would be in for a great suprise.

You want an honest opinion on the origin of the OP's cat folks (not breed)? This is only my opinion, dont get nasty hehe. Unscrupulous breeders are a part of society, anything not meeting their standards is a liability and either gets sold dirt cheap or put in a rescue shelter or worse, they are part of a kitty mill. Those are cold hard facts we seldom discuss openly for obvious reasons. I fully believe from looking at the photo of the OP the cat may be in fact from some type of breeder that did not want it because of some defect or a test it failed to pass or was simply surplus. I think the Op snagged a little jewel and is quite lucky.

Something to note that most folks do not know. Many Mill breeders when they get rid of select cats will cover a large area dropping them off at various cities rescue shelters or regular shelters as not to raise suspicion as to what they do. Constantly bringing in kittens or old cats that look like known breeds into one place raises eyebrows. Doesnt reality suck sometimes? Now back to happier discussion.

@oriental slave,

Not everyone does but then the circles i run in do refer to them as "Blue" a slightly derogatory term because we all know the RB is not "True Race" and until it is let back out by the powers that be in Russia we have what we have, a mishmash of breeds that breeders (if you can call them that) used to create the current RB or Blue, but then most people accept a Blue for what it is, i do not and neither do a lot of other folks. One can follow the crowd and be content or one can research the how and the why behind alot things that may or may not be right. I prefer facts and knowledge.

I prefer to dig really deep when researching things like the OP'S picture. Desktop troubleshooting, what we all do on forums are simply guesses and suggestion at best since we are not there in person to evaluate or lack accredited credentials in whatever area, i enjoy the debate and am looking forward to seeing the OPs cat pic when it hits adulthood in a couple years. Grin.

 

[orientalslave]

@oriental slave,

Not everyone does but then the circles i run in do refer to them as "Blue" a slightly derogatory term because we all know the RB is not "True Race" and until it is let back out by the powers that be in

Blue is simply a colour of cat to me (and to everyone with an interest in pedigree cats that I know), not a breed.  As I pointed out, there are self blues in many breeds so the word 'blue' on it's own simply cannot denote a cat of any breed, regardless of if you consider it worthy of being called a breed. 

The Russian Blue in the UK certainly is a breed - it's pedigrees have been recorded, it has a standard of points, and it's been breed to that standard for many years.  They have had their own class in GCCF shows wince 1912.  You can dispute the name, but there is no doubt it's a long-standing breed in the UK.

 

[siberian kitty]

From the picture I'm guessing he's a chartreux. The chartreux are known for their large paws; short limbs and golden to copper eyes. Very cute kitten.

 

[orientalslave]

The Chartreux is not recognised in the UK - too similar to a blue British Shorthair.

There are vanishingly small numbers in other countries including France (their place of origin) and the US (where I suspect the OP lives).

The changes of this kitten being part-Chartreux in my view is just about zero.

He is gorgeous, and he is a domestic shorthair, a blue moggie.  Nothing more or less.

 

[StefanZ]

From the picture I'm guessing he's a chartreux. The chartreux are known for their large paws; short limbs and golden to copper eyes. Very cute kitten.

I agree with Oriental, but also with you Siberian.  Here we were discussing if this kitten is perhaps a look alike a russian blue.

But you Siberian do have a point.  If the owner and others wants to fancy the kitten is perhaps a look alike some breed, chartreux is prob a better choice.

I do have in our hall a plansch with several chartreux kittens (I think!). He is more alike them than russians. the same color of eyes for example, also the profile of the skull/face.

 

[StefanZ]

We have a blue kitty too and I always chuckle when people ask if he's a Russian Blue....he was born to a stray that made her way to a rescue days before she gave birth. He has a very dense coat with silver ticking on the tips. He's a big handsome boy, but alas, he's a Maggie...a gorgeous one though.

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Ah yes, the silver ticking on the tips!  THIS is an essential part of being a russian blue!  I cant swear EVERY pedigreed RUS has these silver tickings. but those without will be called forever as pet quality at the very best.

So, among folks, if they see a slender but muscled blue cat the field cry is "russian blue", but every decent russian blue shall have these silver tickings, in reality being sooner silver gray bluish than just plainly blue.  

RAFM, please show us more picts on your beautiful moggie, esp as this tread has come to talk much about blue  look alikes....  

 

[graill]

Blue is simply a colour of cat to me (and to everyone with an interest in pedigree cats that I know), not a breed.  As I pointed out, there are self blues in many breeds so the word 'blue' on it's own simply cannot denote a cat of any breed, regardless of if you consider it worthy of being called a breed. 

The Russian Blue in the UK certainly is a breed - it's pedigrees have been recorded, it has a standard of points, and it's been breed to that standard for many years.  They have had their own class in GCCF shows wince 1912.  You can dispute the name, but there is no doubt it's a long-standing breed in the UK.

Quote,

"The Russian Blue in the UK certainly is a breed - it's pedigrees have been recorded, it has a standard of points, and it's been breed to that standard for many years. They have had their own class in GCCF shows wince 1912. You can dispute the name, but there is no doubt it's a long-standing breed in the UK." Endquote.

We can agree to disagree Oriental. The other side of the pond  has its own rules and acceptance as do some folks around the world. I take breed as meaning pure race, not something tailored and mixed from other breeds to gain a desired effect and then called a breed. I have no problem mixing for traits in a pure race, i do have a problem when breeders create a new breed from several other cats, as was the Russian Blue, a mix of Siamese, Korat and a few other cats to gain a desired effect, under the auspice the breed was extinct and was going to be brought back, just because it was recognized as a pedigreed breed doesnt make it so, though it may make other people feel good about them. You state its pedigree has been recorded, the modern Russian Blue is not pure race so how can it be pedigreed? Recorded or not. Again, its what the governing bodies decide, right or wrong. Today it seems if enough breeders make enough noise and outcry anything will be accepted as a pedigreed breed.

Thats why the Govering bodies cant even agree on Breed numbers, somewhere between 40+ and 75 depending on which one you look at? Until all the governing bodies have one standard and one breed standard and number, it is what it is, and i laugh about that sometimes.

On a side note.

It ruffles my feathers a bit a when people refer to other cats as "moggies", especially since the UK uses this term like it was a badge of honor, looking at its history. If you want to get technical we could call most of the cat breeds accepted by all the governing bodies moggies or mongrel or mixed breeds, and that would be entirely accurate. And it would certainly anger alot of folks. Thats why we use kinder words when we debate like we are doing now, domestic, mixed, or mixed breed, accepted or not.

@ Rachtbh, excuse me OP for taking this off topic a bit. Grin. I do not frequent the boards alot but i love debate and will try to get my dollar and two cents in from time to time.

@StefanZ,  i had not considered a Charteux look alike, nice call. Again when the animal hits adolesence and the eyes and facial areas mature a bit we can get a better idea of what the mix is. Then again the op might have hit the proverbial jackpot as some breeders dump undesireable kittens at various shelters, so who knows.

 

[Willowy]

Is moggie a derogatory term? I rather thought it WAS the "kinder" way to refer to a domestic. Anyway, I like the word . Although most Americans don't know what it means. But I didn't grow up in the U.S. so I can claim that :tongue2:.

 

[northernglow]

The other side of the pond  has its own rules and acceptance as do some folks around the world. I take breed as meaning pure race, not something tailored and mixed from other breeds to gain a desired effect and then called a breed. I have no problem mixing for traits in a pure race, i do have a problem when breeders create a new breed from several other cats, as was the Russian Blue, a mix of Siamese, Korat and a few other cats to gain a desired effect, under the auspice the breed was extinct and was going to be brought back, just because it was recognized as a pedigreed breed doesnt make it so, though it may make other people feel good about them. You state its pedigree has been recorded, the modern Russian Blue is not pure race so how can it be pedigreed? Recorded or not. 

Out of curiosity, would you list the breeds that you think currently happen to be 'pure race'? I can sure as hell count my breeds out, but I'd be interested to know which are the most inbred breeds in the world.. (I assume you are aware that breed mixing was also done to keep certain breeds from being extinct during war times for example). 

And I can't see Chartreux in the OP's cat, again, the eye color is wrong just like with RUS. (Chartreux is accepted over here, very rare though and I've only seen them 2-3 times in a show).

 

[missymotus]

 I take breed as meaning pure race, not something tailored and mixed from other breeds to gain a desired effect and then called a breed.

Today it seems if enough breeders make enough noise and outcry anything will be accepted as a pedigreed breed.

It ruffles my feathers a bit a when people refer to other cats as "moggies"

Pedigree means a recorded history, and it's been decided worldwide that 4-5 generations = purebred. I have no issues with that, the US does seem rather loose on people creating new breeds, or crossing breeds if you prefer that term, other countries have far stricter rules 

And yes, my breed originated over 50 years ago from crossing 2 breeds. doesn't make them any less of a pedigreed cat than these apparent Russians that never leave Russia. They are also still outcrossed to maintain a good gene pool - over here this can only be done with permission, and offspring assessed by judges for their inclusion in a breeding program.

Not sure what the issue with Moggie is? Like Mongrel with dogs, simply a term for unpedigree/unpapered animals.

 

[orientalslave]

I take breed as meaning pure race, not something tailored and mixed from other breeds to gain a desired effect and then called a breed.

Gosh - 'pure race' has horrible connotations over here.  The war and all that.  Your definition of a breed is far narrower than most peoples, and one might define a natural breed (which is what I call your definition of a breed) as one created by selecting from moggies...   The Wikipedia definition of breed certainly encompasses mine:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breed

"A breed is a group of domestic animals or plants with a homogeneous appearance, behavior, and other characteristics that distinguish it from other animals or plants of the same species, and arrived at through selective breeding."

There is no doubt in my mind that all breeds of cat (natural or man-made) have been arrived at by selective breeding, using examples of other breeds and/or moggies.

 

[lestaterys]

Hi every one.

Hes beautiful what ever he is but i would say a cross of some sort. Do you have any info on where he came from etc?

Amanda

 

[orientalslave]

Yes - a moggie x moggie cross in my view.  It really puzzles me why people think a particularly attractive cat must have some pedigree blood in his veins.  Remember, everything in pedigree cats has come from their (distant) moggie ancestors.