Wet vs Dry - The Epic Debate

[saitenyo]

And because that's a whole lot of text I just wrote, here's the above broken down into a simple list. Based on PetCo prices, and feeding amounts for an average adult cat, here are the breakdowns for how much eat diet costs to feed one cat per month, from cheapest option to most expensive:

9 Lives canned: $27.30
Wellness Core Kibble: $29.12
Soulistic canned: $36.70
Half Wellness Core Kibble, half 9 Lives canned: $41.86
Half Wellness Core Kibble, half various high-end grain-free canned: $49.40
Various high-end grain-free canned: $53.39

It should be noted that my grain-free canned selection above includes one very pricey food (Blue Wilderness Duck). I should calculate what a diet of the cheapest grain-free I can find is, and see how that compares.

Edit: Ok, I went ahead and calculated the monthly price of feeding Soulistic (PetCo's cheapest grain-free canned food) and that comes out to $36.70 pet month.
Still more than the kibble-only diet, but actually cheaper than a half Core kibble, half low-quality wet food diet. So there you go! I've added that to the list above.

 

[ducman69]

Hmmm, one of us has to be off on our numbers. Are you using large kibble bags (might as well, the stuff doesn't go bad) and ~5oz cans (the 12oz may go bad for most people before it is finished)?

Before I compared to Friskies which suggests 3oz can per 2.5lbs of body weight, so the difference was more pronounced, but still, thats FAR more than the dry.

For example, EVO comes in 15lb dry bags, and is published 4,420 kcal/kg (very dense food, no fillers). 15lbs is 7kg, so multiply 4,420kcal by 7 and you get 30,040kcal in one bag. Serving size is 200-250kcal per day. 30,040kcal/day divided by 225kcal average is 133 days. I don't see it on Petco, but they are around $40 a bag in store IIRC. 4000cents / 133 days = 30cents/day. $9 a month. As you stated, to get the same grainfree ingredients in wet is $53.39. Thats six times the price for comparable wet.

Can you show your math if you don't mind to see what either you or I are doing wrong? Were you perhaps using those tiny 2lb bags of dry, as those are way overpriced.

 

[saitenyo]

Originally Posted by Ducman69

I know its a long thread, but I already showed my math and how I arrived at my numbers.

One of us is ABSOLUTELY wrong, as our numbers are off by tremendous amounts.

Are you going by the manufacturer's feeding suggestion on both products, and are you using the large dry bags (11lbs, you might as well, the food doesn't go bad) and comparing it to 5oz cans (12oz cans might go bad by the time a cat finishes it)? Please show your math if you don't mind. We can't both be right with such a massive difference in results as mine showed the premium kibble less than a third the price of really cheapo bulk-purchase of wet food off Amazon.

No, I was using the 5 lb bag of Wellness Core (as that's what I last purchased), and the 5oz cans of canned food (excluding the Blue Buffalo, which only comes on 3 oz cans).

However I notice you said you calculated using the Friskies 3oz cans. 3oz cans are always more expensive per oz than the 5oz cans of the same brand. And I guess store selection does make a difference, because Friskies 5.5 oz canned food at PetCo are only $10.80 for a case of 24. That comes out to approx. $0.08 per oz. As opposed to your 3oz can price off Amazon which is $0.16 per oz.

So no wonder your prices are so different. You're comparing buying the grain-free kibble in the largest bulk bag possible vs. buying the canned food in the smallest can possible. Of course that's going to skew your results. That's not really a fair comparison. Neither is saying I need to compare the largest bag of kibble with the mid-size can of food. Chances are someone who is really trying to save money is going to be buying their canned food in bulk too (at least 5.5oz cans, if not larger), not paying extra for those silly little 3oz cans.

Here is all my math, since you asked: https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?...thkey=CNaP88oF
I double-checked everything to make sure there were no mistakes, so hopefully there aren't any. I did notice I was missing the 0.5 on the 9 Lives can size so that bumped its cost up about $2 per month, which was just enough to put it above the kibble-only Core diet, but still not enough to put it above the combo diet.

And because you asked, here's one with the larger bag of kibble, but still all 5.5 oz cans, even though I'd argue that's not an entirely fair comparison since if someone is trying to save money they'd buy larger cans too. those cans won't necessarily go bad before they're used up. Lots of people buy canned food this way.
Anyway, it makes a fairly small difference. All the kibble+canned diets are still more expensive than the cheap canned diet: https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?...thkey=CJqH_s4F

I'd say if anything, these price comparisons do make a decent argument that you're not saving that much money buying cheaper canned food vs. higher quality canned food (the Soulistic and 9 Lives are only a difference of $8 a month), likely because of how much more of the lower quality food you have to feed to meet the same nutritional requirements.

But I also don't think these numbers are showing that including quality dry in a cat's diet is going to dramatically cut costs, especially if it's only half the diet or less. Which goes back to my original point that if someone wants to feed high-quality food and save money, buy an affordable grain-free canned food (which isn't that much more than grain-free kibble) and save yourself the possible high vet bills later in case your cat happens to be prone to UTIs or kidney problems. Seems logical to me.

Edit: Also, the raw comparisons are on those charts because this is just my original personal price comparison chart that I copied and stuck the 9 Lives and Soulistic comparisons into. I figured I'd leave the raw stuff there in case anyone is interested in those cost comparisons. The very bottom selection is the one I am currently using for my cats.

 

[sweetpea24]

I just wanted to comment on the comments about feeding raw. Yes you have to figure out the right balance of meat, organs, bone, etc. for your animal whether it's a cat, dog or iguana. Many people feed their animals a raw diet and have been successful at it. Others like myself, feed a pre-made raw diet to my dog. I would feed it to my cats (except for my CRF cat) if they were willing. The only issue I have is the extra care I have to take in sanitizing surfaces, bowls, and utensils. Otherwise, my dog has not suffered any diseases nor have I. I allow her to lick my face which has not resulted in any salmonella, e coli etc. I think you have to be more careful in terms of how you store it because it is fresh meat. She has been on a raw diet for almost three years. I guess the other issue is that her coat isn't as nice but I think that's normal for raw-fed animals. It is more expensive than kibble but I don't feed her as much so it isn't that much of a difference. Plus her poop is firm and tiny and few. Much less poop than on kibble or canned. If you are willing to do the homemade route, it would be much cheaper especially if you have access to either a raw meat co-op or a nice butcher who will save bones and extra meat for you. Every once in a while, I will give her a raw chicken wing, bones and all, or the giblets from a chicken. No problems whatsoever.

By the way, by-products aren't necessarily bad if they are organs, or muscle meats. This is where they get the taurine so it would be good for them. Mind you, the by-products aren't specified so I would avoid them as a result. However, feeding a homemade cooked or raw diet, you would have to include the organs and muscle meats to provide a complete and balanced diet.

I'm only one example but I will share my vet's rationale for opposing raw. She said the meat that you buy in the grocery store isn't the same as the meat my dog would capture in the wild. The cows or chickens are in slaughterhouses and it's crowded and they pee and poo all over each other. She said if I want to feed natural I should feed canned. First of all, the animals are skinned (oh I hate saying that) and cleaned afterwards. Second of all, I have never seen a can rolling away from a predator. She is convinced that is the "real explanation" for arguments against raw. Uh-huh.

I understand the opposition towards raw believe me. It is gross. But don't just accept a vet's point of view just because they've spent years in school taking courses sponsored by Hills and only learning about Hills. I had a discussion about cat food with one of the vets at the clinci where I work and he extolled the virtues of Hills. Yes, rx foods have their place, I won't argue that. But for maintenance, why would they put corn or corn gluten or rice gluten in a food for an obligate carnivore? Doesn't make sense. He couldn't answer me. I asked him what makes Hills better than a food in a pet store (meaning the premium foods not fancy feast)? He couldn't answer that. Give me a vet that can give me a good answer to that and I will listen.

 

[saitenyo]

Originally Posted by SweetPea24

Others like myself, feed a pre-made raw diet to my dog.

Yup, that's what I do too. It's obviously much pricier than homemade, but as my chart above shows, it's only slightly more expensive than grain-free canned.

I guess the other issue is that her coat isn't as nice but I think that's normal for raw-fed animals.

Really? That's odd. Both my cats showed dramatic improvement in their coat quality after switching them to raw. I wonder if it's a difference in specific ingredients in different raw blends?

 

[ducman69]

Thanks for the spreadsheet! One thing I am confused about though, I can't tell if you are switching weight and volume which would explain why the dry is showing up so expensive for you.

You stated the 5lb bag is 80oz of weight, right?

The feeding suggestion it appears you converted 1/4cup volume into 2oz volume.

So it seems you're figuring that 80oz of weight is divisible by 2oz volume? You can't divide solid ounces by liquid ounces. Gosh, I hate the imperial system!

I think thats the miscalculation resulting in less feedings showing up per bag, combined with the higher price for a small bag. Unlike wet food which limits the size cans you can practically use, there is no practical limit to dry except what you can carry as you can easily reseal the bag with a clip and the food stays fresh forever.

 

[saitenyo]

It's midnight here, so my math skills are rapidly declining, to make sure I'm understanding correctly, what would I want to do to get the correct price per oz for the kibble?

 

[ducman69]

Originally Posted by saitenyo

It's midnight here, so my math skills are rapidly declining, to make sure I'm understanding correctly, what would I want to do to get the correct price per oz for the kibble?

Did this real fast, hopefully its right.

Wellness Core actually only sells in 5.9lb bags at Petco online. So that comes out to $28 after shipping. Wellness Core is listed as 3845 kcal/kg. So multiply that by 2.68kg in a bag so 10305kcal per bag. At 225kcal a day, thats 46days worth of kibble. Thats 61 cents a day or $18.26 a month. If you got the 12 lb bag, thats 93 days worth of calories at $41 after shipping so $13.22 a month. I'm pretty sure you can get those bags much cheaper at Petsmart in store, so you don't have to pay for shipping.

You were using solid ounce weight and liquid ounce volume interchangeably, since they are both called ounces I think, and thats why the numbers were off. If you think about how big those bags are, and how small half a cup a day is, it shouldn't have run out as fast as your calculation.

 

[goingpostal]

Originally Posted by otto

A cat is not an iguana though.

Cats have extremely specific nutritional needs. If they are not properly met, cat gets sick. You can't just throw down meat, organ, and bone, and figure they'll be fine. Ratio is extremely important. Too much of something, cat gets sick. (vitamin A toxicity, for instance, or too much phosphorous) too little of something cat gets sick (not enough vitamin B, taurine deficiency)

It is "rocket science" in a way. If you don't do it right, the cat will crash.

And preparing homemade cat food is a lot easier to NOT do it right, than it is to do it right

I never claimed my cat was an iguana, the point was every animal has specific needs to be met, ratio is just as crucial to a herbivore as a carnivore, many veggies are high goitrogens or high in oxalates, which are harmful, too little calcium will result in MBD, any diet has to be balanced or problems result. That goes for feeding any animal, I wouldn't feed my snake day old chicks for a staple diet because they aren't complete, just like you wouldn't feed a cat only meat, or only organs, that wouldn't make any sense at all. But for some reason you get to dogs and cats and a mere human is incapable of feeding them?

 

[ducman69]

This forum is proof that it can be very healthy and properly balanced and managed by a motivated and knowledgeable caretaker, but that it is open to a lot of human error and cats are suc a mainstream common pet where many don't even know not to feed a cat milk, to where its likely that some would frankly mess it up with disastrous results. It may not be rocket-science but its not intuitive either and needs proper training.

Commercial food is more dummy proof and for many more convenient for their lifestyle.

 

[just mike]

Originally Posted by saitenyo

No worries, things can get lost in text. Sorry for misunderstanding.

I do agree that the diet that keeps an individual cat healthy is the best diet for that cat. I guess like you, I'm also just going by my experience. I'm so passionate about the types of food I feed (grain-free and raw) because they're the only foods Athena has been healthy on.


Certainly, and this is why I'm sure even vets who support raw get very wary about advocating homemade raw diets. Not everyone is going to do it properly and that can be dangerous. Although there's also commercial premade raw which helps with that issue. I feed mostly that because I fret about balancing a homemade diet properly (and can't find enough organ variety). While this too does still require more careful handling than most commercial food, it's definitely a lot easier than homemade. Obviously of course with commercial raw you have the same potential concerns as with any commercial food (trusting the manufacturer to do things properly) and there are certainly some brands I much prefer and trust over others. For example, I know Nature's Variety has had at least one recall. I also don't like that NV uses the same formula for both dogs and cats as this doesn't acknowledge that they have slightly different nutritional requirements. On the other hand I've been pretty pleased with, say, Primal so far, because it has a lower carb content and formulas made specifically for cats. But they're not perfect either (I once got a batch that was accidentally too high in veggies and the cats wouldn't touch it).

So you're right, there are pros and cons to everything. I guess ultimately it's up to the individual owner to decide which pros they feel outweigh which cons/risks.

Trust is a key issue with commercial foods, but that is just me. I need to know where the food is made, how it is purchased by the suppliers, how it is manufactured and how many tests it goes through before it hits the shelves. I also need to know that the company manufactures it's own product, wet and dry. There are no 2nd or 3rd parties involved. That is a HUGE thing with me. That horrific recall back in 2007 really had me going (as it did most everyone else) and that is how I wound up working for the company I work for.

I totally agree with you on the raw diet issue. I think it would take a great deal of knowledge in order to do it properly. Balancing would be one of the issues that would probably be my biggest concern if I were to switch to a raw diet. I don't know much about the commercial raw diet, although I am aware of it. I'm curious if people feed a completely commercial raw diet or supplement with their own raw ingredients...

One thing is certain, we all love our cats and want what is best for them. Brings me to another question I have for people feeding a mix of wet and dry but that is a different thread topic.

 

[auntie crazy]

Originally Posted by NutroMike

Trust is a key issue with commercial foods, but that is just me. I need to know where the food is made, how it is purchased by the suppliers, how it is manufactured and how many tests it goes through before it hits the shelves. I also need to know that the company manufactures it's own product, wet and dry. There are no 2nd or 3rd parties involved. That is a HUGE thing with me. That horrific recall back in 2007 really had me going (as it did most everyone else) and that is how I wound up working for the company I work for.

I totally agree with you on the raw diet issue. I think it would take a great deal of knowledge in order to do it properly. Balancing would be one of the issues that would probably be my biggest concern if I were to switch to a raw diet. I don't know much about the commercial raw diet, although I am aware of it. I'm curious if people feed a completely commercial raw diet or supplement with their own raw ingredients...

One thing is certain, we all love our cats and want what is best for them. Brings me to another question I have for people feeding a mix of wet and dry but that is a different thread topic.

The four cats who looked to me for their care in early 2007 were eating Nutro. One is dead; thankfully, the other three pulled through with no apparent lasting damage.

No tests were done, as Ollie past away before the recall was announced, but as you can imagine, trust is also a huge issue for me... actually, a defining issue, and the lack of it is one of the reasons I don't feed commercial to my cats today.

Please believe me when I reiterate what has already been said so well by Saitenyo, GoingPostal and others - feeding a fresh, raw diet may be (often is) scary on the face of it, but is actually very easy to execute. There's nothing difficult in calculating 3% of a cat's weight and then multiplying that by 80% meat, 10% bone, 5% liver and 5% any other organ (this is the average composition of a feral cat's typical prey diet).

The only difficult part is in the commitment an owner needs to make to follow that diet plan - and that's simply a choice, not a strenuous mental challenge.

Everyone has the right to feed their cats what they choose, and to include their personal priorities and circumstances as part of the basis for their choice, but it's also an owner's obligation to learn about the care and needs of the animal(s) they adopt, so they can make informed, deliberate choices that include an understanding of potential consequences.

I believe this profoundly and it's why I don't engage in debates.... I'll answer questions until my fingers fall off, and then I'll get on the phone and answer more questions, but in the end, the choice of what to feed is always - and rightfully so- in the hands of the owner.

AC

 

[just mike]

Originally Posted by Auntie Crazy

The four cats who looked to me for their care in early 2007 were eating Nutro. One is dead; thankfully, the other three pulled through with no apparent lasting damage.

No tests were done, as Ollie past away before the recall was announced, but as you can imagine, trust is also a huge issue for me... actually, a defining issue, and the lack of it is one of the reasons I don't feed commercial to my cats today.

I am so sorry you lost a cat and the others got sick. I truly am. That must have been really, really hard. I'm not sure if you are implying Nutro was the cause or not. I'm not promoting my product when I say that I have not heard of any deaths or illnesses due to Nutro. As far as I know, the only product that was recalled were the wet cat food pouches and the tinned wet cat food. Those were voluntary recalls from what I can recall. If you're really interested I'll be happy to research it and give you exact numbers etc. During that time, Nutro made all of their own kibble and most of their tinned wet food. I think the only product that a 2nd party had anything to do with were the pouches, which is why Nutro recalled them. I was so floored during that entire time. Weird isn't it... I could believe it if it happened to the food I ate, but was shocked as all get out when it happened to my beloved pet's food. Shows you where my priorities are

I hope I'm using the quotes correctly here:

Originally Posted by Auntie Crazy

Please believe me when I reiterate what has already been said so well by Saitenyo, GoingPostal and others - feeding a fresh, raw diet may be (often is) scary on the face of it, but is actually very easy to execute. There's nothing difficult in calculating 3% of a cat's weight and then multiplying that by 80% meat, 10% bone, 5% liver and 5% any other organ (this is the average composition of a feral cat's typical prey diet).

The only difficult part is in the commitment an owner needs to make to follow that diet plan - and that's simply a choice, not a strenuous mental challenge.

I do believe you. I don't discount a raw diet at all. I'm surprised by some of the responses from people on both (actually all 3) sides of the feeding issue. I'm pleased as well. Shows me that there are a lot of people out there that really care for their babies and want what is best.

Originally Posted by Auntie Crazy

Everyone has the right to feed their cats what they choose, and to include their personal priorities and circumstances as part of the basis for their choice, but it's also an owner's obligation to learn about the care and needs of the animal(s) they adopt, so they can make informed, deliberate choices that include an understanding of potential consequences.

I believe this profoundly and it's why I don't engage in debates.... I'll answer questions until my fingers fall off, and then I'll get on the phone and answer more questions, but in the end, the choice of what to feed is always - and rightfully so- in the hands of the owner.

AC

Your last paragraph says it all. Regardless of what people may say or think, I'm here to learn and answer questions if needed. People will feed what they feel comfortable with be it nutrition, budget, or whatever. It's nice chatting with you though.

M

 

[auntie crazy]

You're very courteous, Mike. I want to reply to your questions, but we've gotten a bit off topic so I'm going to send you a pm.

Originally Posted by NutroMike

...
I'm surprised by some of the responses from people on both (actually all 3) sides of the feeding issue. I'm pleased as well. Shows me that there are a lot of people out there that really care for their babies and want what is best.
...
M

TCS exists because of the love its members have for their kitties. We each have our own experiences, perspectives and opinions, but we all love our furbabies.

AC

 

[minka]

Somewhere along the way, I think it was forgotten that cats are obligate carnivores.. The whole 'too much protein = bad' is so untrue it's not even funny.

Also, in dry food, the meat at the top of the ingredients is calculated Before dehydration, so they are actually much lower on the list.

(I'm not going to directly quote all the people I want to respond to because that would make my post way too ridiculously long.)

http://www.thecatsite.com/forums/sho...0&postcount=52
Saitento is right. Not all people (or cats) who eat junk are going to suffer from it. Genetics play a huge role in how a cat's body reacts in inadequate food. You may have a cat that is 'fine' for many many years, or you may have a cat that suffers right away. You have to determine if that risk is really worth it to you. If saving a few cents a day is worth the risk that your cat may become deathly sick from it.
I also do not have to portion control my cat now that he is on canned. And he is still safely losing half an ounce a day.

http://www.thecatsite.com/forums/sho...7&postcount=47
True, true and.. true.
Dry food leaves a yucky residue and unless you have a Lot of cats, that food is going to sit out in the open air and roll around in the cat drool until it is actually eaten by another cat. Gross.
Once again, obligate carnivores. You can't compare giving vegetable proteins to a cat like you can a human. Do you see any cats in the wild needing to have the PH of their pee tested? They eat Only meat and guess what? They thrive on it.
True again. Those veggies are added because (most) of us have been hard-wired to know that veggies are good and healthy (even if we don't eat them ourselves) so when we see them we go 'ohhh, this must be healthy!' even though cats don't eat or need fruits or vegetables.

http://www.thecatsite.com/forums/sho...5&postcount=17
Not true at all. If fed a diet high in carbs (say... Hills Prescription Diet) you can portion control allllll you want and the cat is still going to gain weight. Which is why you see so many stories of 'My cat is on diet food, but he's still gaining weight! What's going on? :B'
Also, there are these things called petsitters and food bowls with ice in them, so even if you are on vacation is no excuse to not feed wet.

Originally Posted by Ducman69

#2) If you removed these minor plant sources COMPLETELY from the recipe (rice/peas/potatoes/etc), I don't know how else they would hit their target urine PH levels.
#3) Cats can very well get nutrients from vegetable sources, they just lack at least one amino acid. There are in fact completely vegetarian cat diets available, I don't agree with it, but cats aren't dying on it either.
#4) My main complaint is that people are often thinking in absolutes; and in the case of peas and potatoes and rice and the like, regardless of the fact that its in both wet and dry, its not like its the first or second ingredient. A little is not the same as a lot. LOW carb not NO carb.

#2 They don't have 'target PH levels'. As long as they are getting enough water (aka from wet food), their bladders stay nice and flushed out.
#3 No. They can't. They are strictly carnivores. And PALEASE don't get into the whole 'they aren't dying from it.' You may not 'die' from eating only McDonald's, but that doesn't mean it's even the slightest bit okay for you. People who feed vegetarian to cats need to unscrew their heads and put them back on the right way.
#4 And no, not all wet foods have peas or potatoes or rice in them. I can name to you many wet foods that have nothing but meat in them.

Originally Posted by runnerup

I know what I should be eating, but I don't always do so. Someone posted that if we don't have the time/resources to feed our cats what is best for them, then why bother owning a cat. Well, if I don't have time/resources to feed myself the healthiest diet, should I also not bother with feeding myself and living?

You can't just stop feeding yourself if you can't feed healthily because you would die. But there is a huge difference between feeding yourself, and feeding another being who can't feed themselves. It's no different than a baby. If you can't afford to feed your baby right, take them to the doctor and clothe them, well, you shouldn't have a baby. I'm not saying you have to feed them organic or anything, but if all you can afford to feed them is McDonald's and beans (or dry by-product food for cats), then you shouldn't have one.
Now, there IS a difference between rescuing a cat from death and only being able to feed them low quality dry and going out and Buying a cat and then saying you can only feed it low-quality dry. The first is understandable, the second is just irresponsible, IMHO.

 

[ducman69]

Originally Posted by Minka

Somewhere along the way, I think it was forgotten that cats are obligate carnivores.. The whole 'too much protein = bad' is so untrue it's not even funny.

Completely irrelevant.

Commercial wet food contains approximately the same ingredients as commercial dry food, comparing premium to premium. As was shown, the wet food also has various veggies in there. Both are still low carb.

The whole point is to show that its the same quality ingredients with the similar protein, fat, and carbs in grain-free quality dry as wet, and in fact superior to cheap wet.

Originally Posted by Minka

I also do not have to portion control my cat now that he is on canned. And he is still safely losing half an ounce a day.

You free feed wet food? I didn't think so. You are portion controlling wet.

Originally Posted by Minka

Dry food leaves a yucky residue and unless you have a Lot of cats, that food is going to sit out in the open air and roll around in the cat drool until it is actually eaten by another cat. Gross.

Uhm, how about no. I can upload a video if you like, but when my autofeeder makes its "woosh" sound dispensing the food, my cats come running at mach 10. Within a couple minutes, the bowl is empty. The bowl is designed to easily lift right out to be washed, and clicks right into place. The food is low moisture and contains natural preservatives, to the point the shelf life is a matter of years, so bacteria is hardly a major concern. Let us not forget that cats lick feces off of their butts, and not pretend like they are so utterly fragile as well in that regard.

Originally Posted by Minka

Once again, obligate carnivores. You can't compare giving vegetable proteins to a cat like you can a human. Do you see any cats in the wild needing to have the PH of their pee tested? They eat Only meat and guess what? They thrive on it.

For about four years, at which point they die. That is the most common listed life expectancy median of a feral cat. The average health of a citizen of Somalia is likely far superior to Japan, but Somalia also has a median age of 17.7 years per the 2010 statistics since they die so young, compared to 46.7 for Japan.

 

[minka]

Originally Posted by Ducman69

Completely irrelevant.

Commercial wet food contains approximately the same ingredients as commercial dry food, comparing premium to premium. As was shown, the wet food also has various veggies in there. Both are still low carb.

The whole point is to show that its the same quality ingredients with the similar protein, fat, and carbs in grain-free quality dry as wet, and in fact superior to cheap wet.

Not irrelevant. Especially since you keep saying that cats need veggies in their diets because 'high protein will throw off their PH levels'.

You free feed wet food? I didn't think so. You are portion controlling wet.

Yes I do. He gets food whenever he wants. There is always something out for him, and when I feed him, I put down as much as he wants.

Uhm, how about no. I can upload a video if you like, but when my autofeeder makes its "woosh" sound dispensing the food, my cats come running at mach 10. Within a couple minutes, the bowl is empty. The bowl is designed to easily lift right out to be washed, and clicks right into place. The food is low moisture and contains natural preservatives, to the point the shelf life is a matter of years, so bacteria is hardly a major concern. Let us not forget that cats lick feces off of their butts, and not pretend like they are so utterly fragile as well in that regard.

The food you feed is not 'special'. All dry food has bacteria, and all air carries some moisture with it, so unless your cats eat all that 10 lbs of food in a few days, it is still slowly rotting and getting stale inside that container.

For about four years, at which point they die. That is the most common listed life expectancy median of a feral cat. The average health of a citizen of Somalia is likely far superior to Japan, but Somalia also has a median age of 17.7 years per the 2010 statistics since they die so young, compared to 46.7 for Japan.

Feral cats don't live that long because
A: They have lost some of the instincts their wild counterparts had.
B: FIV and FELv are rampant among feral cat colonies, causing many early deaths.
C: City rats and birds are much more infested with diseases as well, passing them on to the cats.
D: City life is hard, they have to watch out for cars and people who will shoot and poison them.

If you are going to compare to wild counterparts, at least do it properly.
Serval: 10 years
Caracal: 12 years
Jungle cat (Felis chaus): up to 20 years
Colocolo: 9-16 years
Geoffrey's Cat: 18 years

 

[ducman69]

Originally Posted by Minka

Not irrelevant. Especially since you keep saying that cats need veggies in their diets because 'high protein will throw off their PH levels'.

Its irrelevant when you are comparing commercial wet to quality commercial grain-free dry that has roughly the same ingredients. Its the wet has peas in it and the dry has peas in it... you getting it?

And yes, veggies do bump urine PH, and too acidic of urine does contribute to risk for oxalate crystals. Too much is also an issue w/ struvite crystals if the urine is alkaline, and this realization in the medical community is helpful in designing quality modern recipes.

Originally Posted by Minka

Yes I do. He gets food whenever he wants. There is always something out for him, and when I feed him, I put down as much as he wants.

You really should stop leaving out wet food 24x7. It not only stinks up your house, but it does go rancid. If you're worried about health, that would be the first thing to change IMO, and refrigerate any uneaten food after 30mins to an hour.

Originally Posted by Minka

The food you feed is not 'special'. All dry food has bacteria, and all air carries some moisture with it, so unless your cats eat all that 10 lbs of food in a few days, it is still slowly rotting and getting stale inside that container.

Humidity in the air of a climate controlled home is not sufficient moisture for bacteria to culture on dry food. That is why you don't have to refrigerate cereal, and it won't grow mold. My Honey Nut Cheerios mega-box has been open for months, and while quasi-sealed like my cat feeder, is not perfectly air-tight but its good enough and the cereal tastes fine. The dry food has a shelf life of years thanks to the low moisture and natural preservatives and fat in the recipe. From personal experience, I can assure you it is not stale, as it is very much enjoyed by my kitties and they've gone through bags.

Originally Posted by Minka

Feral cats don't live that long because...

Because doesn't matter, the point is if people died as young teenagers, you wouldn't see a lot of diseases in people either. Young teens just tend to be healthy. I highly doubt you will be able to produce studies that show how long these other more elusive species are are living in the wild and I don't see how you imagine researchers can track health issues and diseases in a wild population of mostly unsocial creatures spread out over great expanses with the kind of attention that a domestic indoor-only cat gets from its caretakers that monitor litterbox use w/ constant exposure to notice small changes and vet visits when something is amiss to diagnose and log the issue.

Lets be realistic here.

 

[minka]

Originally Posted by Ducman69

Its irrelevant when you are comparing commercial wet to quality commercial grain-free dry that has roughly the same ingredients. Its the wet has peas in it and the dry has peas in it... you getting it?

And yes, veggies do bump urine PH, and too acidic of urine does contribute to risk for oxalate crystals. Too much is also an issue w/ struvite crystals if the urine is alkaline, and this realization in the medical community is helpful in designing quality modern recipes.

Are You not getting that there are wet foods that Don't have peas or potatoes in them? For every example I give you, you basically ignore it and ramble about something else. =/
'Veggies do bump urine PH, blahblah' - In Humans. Cats don't need their PH's bumped.

You really should stop leaving out wet food 24x7. It not only stinks up your house, but it does go rancid. If you're worried about health, that would be the first thing to change IMO, and refrigerate any uneaten food after 30mins to an hour.

Wet food can be left out for a few hours and be Fine. Plus since you know nothing about my life, you wouldn't know that the majority of the time, I'm here all day. Food gets either refrigerated and then rehydrated for later, or dumped out and replaced with fresh food. What now Mister?

Humidity in the air of a climate controlled home is not sufficient moisture for bacteria to culture on dry food. That is why you don't have to refrigerate cereal, and it won't grow mold. My Honey Nut Cheerios mega-box has been open for months, and while quasi-sealed like my cat feeder, is not perfectly air-tight but its good enough and the cereal tastes fine. The dry food has a shelf life of years thanks to the low moisture and natural preservatives and fat in the recipe. From personal experience, I can assure you it is not stale, as it is very much enjoyed by my kitties and they've gone through bags.

Cereal is a horrible example to compare to because.. *drum roll* it doesn't contain meat! Meat can not sit out for days and be just fine.

Because doesn't matter, the point is if people died as young teenagers, you wouldn't see a lot of diseases in people either. Young teens just tend to be healthy. I highly doubt you will be able to produce studies that show how long these other more elusive species are are living in the wild and I don't see how you imagine researchers can track health issues and diseases in a wild population of mostly unsocial creatures spread out over great expanses with the kind of attention that a domestic indoor-only cat gets from its caretakers that monitor litterbox use w/ constant exposure to notice small changes and vet visits when something is amiss to diagnose and log the issue.

Lets be realistic here.

Because does matter.
Once again, you are completely ignoring the examples I gave you in favor of rambling. Why would I need studies to show how long these species live?? I looked up their lifespans which are supported by findings in, well, how long they live. What more do you need??

 

[ducman69]

Originally Posted by Minka

Are You not getting that there are wet foods that Don't have peas or potatoes in them? For every example I give you, you basically ignore it and ramble about something else. =/
'Veggies do bump urine PH, blahblah' - In Humans. Cats don't need their PH's bumped.

Fair enough, but most wet food does have veggies in it. In fact, I doubt even 1% of what you see on the shelves at Petco or Petsmart is completely devoid of plant matter, as I imagine it'd be in the premium food isle and I check that all the time and have never seen it. Nor is 0% plantmatter good IMO. And thanks to advances in processing, quality kibble is now baked and not extruded and no longer requires much in starches to stay cohesive as you can see in the ultra-low carb kibbles in this thread.

As an example, here is a very expensive and considered most "natural" wet food, Blue Wilderness Wet:

Chicken, Chicken Broth, Potatoes, Guar Gum, Dicalcium Phosphate, Choline Chloride, Flaxseed Meal, Salt, Carageenan, Cassia Gum, Potassium Chloride, Taurine, Vitamin A Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate , Riboflavin, Niacin, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Biotin, Folic Acid, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Iron Amino Acid Chelate, Zinc Amino Acid Chelate, Copper Amino Acid Chelate, Manganese Amino Acid Chelate, Sodium Selenite, Calcium Iodate .

Originally Posted by Minka

Wet food can be left out for a few hours and be Fine. Plus since you know nothing about my life, you wouldn't know that the majority of the time, I'm here all day. Food gets either refrigerated and then rehydrated for later, or dumped out and replaced with fresh food. What now Mister?

I'm still confused as to how you can be putting the food away and yet also claim that wet food is available at all times. My cats can't get into the fridge, so I don't think I'm alone in the confusion.

Originally Posted by Minka

Cereal is a horrible example to compare to because.. *drum roll* it doesn't contain meat! Meat can not sit out for days and be just fine.

Uhhh, yeah it can. Beef jerky is usually good for about 6-8 months for example. My bonito flakes have a shelf life of a year right there on the package. Dried meat lasts a very long time, especially if you add extra natural preservatives (I don't like artificial stuff like BHA added) as is done in quality kibble. This isn't a secret, go to Petsmart and look at the shelf-life of dry food. You don't have to use that stuff in a week... come on now, heheh.