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Warning: Very Mean Vent!
- Thread starter vibiana
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I have two healthy, neutered, outdoor cats. My dad has allergies, so they can't come indoors. But they wouldn't want to anyway, they were originally strays before they were in the paper as pets "free to good home". I'm going to assume most of you know what happens to many of those animals. I think anyone would rather they live outside in a nice neighborhood with six acres to roam, than being tortured, set on fire, or used as bait for fighting dogs, as often happens to the "free" add cats. My cats are healthy and happy. They have plenty of shelter and trees to climb.
However, many people who have cats live in bad neighborhoods and/or don't have lots of land. If you live in a neighborhood with a lot of traffic or bad people, don't let them out please!
And on a more humorous note, Plebayo, i totally agree with your points, except one: "They don't get overweight because they get to run around all day..."
I assume in most cases that would be true, but one of mine is very fat
, unlike his sister. He is really cuddly as they both are, but he is FAT! I want him to lose weight, but he gets lots of exercise. The only explanation is the wildlife here. We like it when he kills the nuisance rodents like moles and squirrels, but he is also fed by me. He must eat a lot more than i am aware!
I love my cats a lot, and i do all the things neccessary to help them live healthy, happy lives. And as for predators, there are no large dogs in our neighborhood except ours, and they are friendly to cats. They also keep away many of the other predators, like coyotes and foxes. My cats ARE safe and happy.
Joecool
However, many people who have cats live in bad neighborhoods and/or don't have lots of land. If you live in a neighborhood with a lot of traffic or bad people, don't let them out please!
And on a more humorous note, Plebayo, i totally agree with your points, except one: "They don't get overweight because they get to run around all day..."
I assume in most cases that would be true, but one of mine is very fat
I love my cats a lot, and i do all the things neccessary to help them live healthy, happy lives. And as for predators, there are no large dogs in our neighborhood except ours, and they are friendly to cats. They also keep away many of the other predators, like coyotes and foxes. My cats ARE safe and happy.
Joecool
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Okay, okay, I plead extreme bias. I live in a city neighborhood where it is not safe for cats or even pedestrians to wander around unleashed. And yes, I'm a wuss who overprotects my cats. Jeesh. Happy now?
Don't worry, some people agree with you as well. I live in the city with a freeway nearby, an alleyway right behind us, and streets very, very close. I often see "strong hunters" dead on the street after being hit by a car. My girls will never, ever get to go outside unless on a leash, or until I have a yard and can make an enclosure.
In a more rural area perhaps I would let them outside, and there healthy happy indoor/outdoor cats. It's just not something I would risk where I live.
For my area and those who live here (which is the only experience I have...which is, in a densely populated area), pet cats need to be kept inside, spayed or neutered, period. I think that it is highly inappropriate to let cats out if you live in an urban/suburban environment. No exceptions. I've never lived in a rural area...perhaps my opinion would be different. I don't know. But with the lifestyle I am accustomed to...ONLY indoors.
As for speutering...I applaud TNR efforts. Clearly not every cat is meant to be a happy little indoor kitty (although, like I said, if you keep an urban cat as a pet, inside. only. period.) and sterilizing them is a terrific idea. Personally, and this is highly controversial on this site, I'm not a fan of breeding. 99% of the breeders out there are, unfortunately NOT responsible. And all the breeders I've ever heard of don't spay or neuter all of their animals and don't do it before adopting them out all the time. Actually, not even all shelters do this! I think that this is the biggest problem. Breeders should have to be trained or attend some course and then be licensed through the local or state level government. There should also be a 'breeder quota' or something...it keeps the highly trained responsible guys doing what they do and weeds out the others. Otherwise, it should be illegal and punishable by law to produce offspring from companion animals. I also think that all animals adopted out, be it by a breeder or a shelter or independently, should be spayed or neutered at 2 pounds or when they are found. Breeder kittens can be traded through programs for the trained, licensed breeders. As fr as show cats go....I've never understood why all show cats can't be sterile. Perhaps given the overpopulation crisis, this standard should change. And yes, I know that show cats generally aren't wandering the streets, but it should be a universal standard and understanding among cat owners that we sterilize all of our animals, no exceptions. Without silly exceptions, with the understanding that this is something absolutely necessary...maybe things will change.
As for speutering...I applaud TNR efforts. Clearly not every cat is meant to be a happy little indoor kitty (although, like I said, if you keep an urban cat as a pet, inside. only. period.) and sterilizing them is a terrific idea. Personally, and this is highly controversial on this site, I'm not a fan of breeding. 99% of the breeders out there are, unfortunately NOT responsible. And all the breeders I've ever heard of don't spay or neuter all of their animals and don't do it before adopting them out all the time. Actually, not even all shelters do this! I think that this is the biggest problem. Breeders should have to be trained or attend some course and then be licensed through the local or state level government. There should also be a 'breeder quota' or something...it keeps the highly trained responsible guys doing what they do and weeds out the others. Otherwise, it should be illegal and punishable by law to produce offspring from companion animals. I also think that all animals adopted out, be it by a breeder or a shelter or independently, should be spayed or neutered at 2 pounds or when they are found. Breeder kittens can be traded through programs for the trained, licensed breeders. As fr as show cats go....I've never understood why all show cats can't be sterile. Perhaps given the overpopulation crisis, this standard should change. And yes, I know that show cats generally aren't wandering the streets, but it should be a universal standard and understanding among cat owners that we sterilize all of our animals, no exceptions. Without silly exceptions, with the understanding that this is something absolutely necessary...maybe things will change.
Your choice....but I would never subject my cats to life on the streets over here. Not with people poisoning cats, cats being run over, infectious diseases (such as rabies, FIV, FELV) and cats being blamed for dessimating birds.
As a rescuer, I will continue to recommend an indoor only lifestyle for all cats that are adopted through our organization.
Katie
Wow! I am sensing some serious anger towards the military here.
True enough there are many active duty personnel who can not find a home for their pets when they are deployed or receive orders for their whole family to move outside of the States. I don't know the statistics, but I think it would be safe to say that the number of irresponsible pet owners is not any higher amongst members of the armed forces than it is amongst the civilian population.
The men and women serving in the armed forces and their families make a lot of sacrafices to ensure that this nation is safe. In my not so humble opinion, these Hero's and Heroine's are not paid a decent wage and have to struggle to get by when they have families.
Since many servicemembers are in the lower end of the economic scale, should we deny them the right to have pets? You know, I once read an article somewhere about a proposal to disallow enlisted personnel below the rank of E-4 to be married with children. At the time I read the article, I was on active duty, was married and had one child. My rank was E-4 and I qualified for (but didn't accept) foodstamps.
I feel terrible knowing that servicemembers have to turn their animals over to shelters when they are deployed. Is surrendering a pet to a shelter the same thing as abandoning them? I don't know, but I don't think it's the same. Yes, I am aware that the pet would face the possibility of being put down.
While I believe that every servicemember who is a pet owner should have the means to provide food, lodging, vetcare etc, and a plan for their pet in case they are no longer able to do so (the servicemembers who have children are required to have someone listed as a legal guardian) I believe that civilians also should live up to that same level of responsibility.
P.S. I served 13 yrs. active duty USNavy, 8 yrs. drilling reservist. In that time I never once abandoned or needed to surrender a pet, however I did take in a few stray kitties.
I knew several sailors who left their families stateside when they could have been accompanied in order to avoid the added disruptions that moving with pets and kids can cause and some who packed up pets and everything only to find that their pet had to be quarantined at a kennel (Hawaii 3 months) at their own expense.
I don't mean to excuse irresponsible behaviour on the part of any servicemember pet owners, just to show that these men and women are people just like you and me; doing their best to get through difficult situations and deserving of some compassion in exchange for the sacrafices they make for us.
Getting down off my soapbox now
Vibiana said:
I, too, belong to a rescue organization/adoption center run through my local Humane Society. We have the same philosophy...an indoor ONLY lifestyle for all cats!!
BUT -- Not every feral we run into is adoptable and those that remain outside in colonies are cared for & sheltered as best as humanly possibly but no cat is adopted out unless the intentions are to have that cat live it's life as an inside cat that will spayed and/or neutered.
As a "mother" to seven resident cats ranging from 9 wks. to 2 yrs., I couldn't imagine letting any one of them outside allowing them to be vulnerable to what you have already mentioned in your post.
I also care for a feral colony of five. It is very hard to watch them struggle through the winter months here but on the same hand, I also know they are not adoptable cats. All of them but one has never seen as much as a "wall" in its entire life. It would be unfair to try to "tame" them into inside cats that are satisfied with sleeping on a windowsill. Rather than trap these ferals and watch them pace in cages...they remain free & live happily within the colony.
Leesali...I completely understand where you are coming from....the rescue I volunteer with does not take in feral cats, so the cats we adopt out we do recommend an indoor only lifestyle.
What is acceptable for one person may not be acceptable for another person. I don't think that people who have indoor/outdoor cats are bad owners by any sense of the word (my parents had an indoor/outdoor cat) but I also don't believe all cats should be allowed outdoors. Again....it should be based on the situation.
I lost a cat when I was younger (who was neutered and UTD on shots) because he was indoors/outdoors....to me, that tragedy merits my keeping my existing cats indoors only. I don't however think that ALL cats should be indoors....I think that it depends on the situation and the person who owns the cat...which is why I did have issues with an earlier post that suggested we should let cats be cats and be outdoors. That person may not have experienced a personal loss of a cat like I did.
Katie
I believe that all cats should be spayed and neutered and kept inside. Except for Ferals of course.
I know this in unrealistic, especially in farm settings.
I know this in unrealistic, especially in farm settings.
99%??? You are so mis-informed! I don't want to take this off topic, but you're waaaaay off base.
Friday driving into work I saw a cat in the middle of the road who was hit by a car. I felt quite angry toward his so called guardian because if you live right next to a busy 40 mph street, your cat should be indoor only (unless you have an solid enclosure or the cat's on a leash).
I understand the feeling that prompted this thread. I don't think Vibiana is upset with every person who has an outdoor kitty. I interepreted her post to be directed at the way the average person treats their pets.
The people who call their pets "it" instead of "him" or "her" are the ones who don't spay/neuter. These are the people who don't watch out for their pets' safety and let them outside in unsafe areas to be run over by cars, poisoned, shot, etc. These are the people that won't spend money on vet care. These are the people who view their pets as disposable. I think these are the people Vibiana is talking about and, if so, I agree with her 100%.
I understand the feeling that prompted this thread. I don't think Vibiana is upset with every person who has an outdoor kitty. I interepreted her post to be directed at the way the average person treats their pets.
The people who call their pets "it" instead of "him" or "her" are the ones who don't spay/neuter. These are the people who don't watch out for their pets' safety and let them outside in unsafe areas to be run over by cars, poisoned, shot, etc. These are the people that won't spend money on vet care. These are the people who view their pets as disposable. I think these are the people Vibiana is talking about and, if so, I agree with her 100%.
Just to clarify...quarantine laws in Hawaii have changed. You can see the current laws here:Originally Posted by lakeriedog
Wow! I am sensing some serious anger towards the military here.
True enough there are many active duty personnel who can not find a home for their pets when they are deployed or receive orders for their whole family to move outside of the States. I don't know the statistics, but I think it would be safe to say that the number of irresponsible pet owners is not any higher amongst members of the armed forces than it is amongst the civilian population.
I feel terrible knowing that servicemembers have to turn their animals over to shelters when they are deployed. Is surrendering a pet to a shelter the same thing as abandoning them? I don't know, but I don't think it's the same. Yes, I am aware that the pet would face the possibility of being put down.
I knew several sailors who left their families stateside when they could have been accompanied in order to avoid the added disruptions that moving with pets and kids can cause and some who packed up pets and everything only to find that their pet had to be quarantined at a kennel (Hawaii 3 months) at their own expense.
http://www.hawaiiag.org/hdoa/ai_aqs_info.htm
The Hawaiian Humane Society also has a special program, called Pets of Patriots, which can provide temporary care for military pets.
Nature is rough. Life is rough. And death is inevitable for all of us sooner or later. It's sad but it's a reality that none of us can change.
I'm definitely not going to say that feral cats have it as easy as their domesticated counterparts, but their lives are not sad. Just visit a colony of TNRed cats and you will see cats who are fat, healthy, and obviously enjoying their lives. Some of them will die relatively young by cars or predators, many others will live long lives and die of age related illnesses. In other words, thier lives are just like the lives of 99.999% of the people and animals in this world.
If you think about it, our indoor pets have lives that are totally different from the lives of any humans or other animals in the world. They share with us the unique advantage of living in climate controlled environments, being free of parasites (or at least relatively so), and access to unlimited quantities of whatever food they desire. Right there this makes them (and us) different from 99.999% of all the creatures that have ever lived in this world. Hardly anyone had these privileges before the past century, and still the majority of people in the world live in developing nations where average citizens do not have the luxuries that we take for granted. I can guarantee you that our great-grandparents did get intestinal parasites and other things that we think of as horrible, disgusting afflictions. The same goes for the wildlife in your neighborhood. The squirrels in the trees in your front yard are bushy-tailed fleabags, I can guarantee you.
But while we enjoy an incredibly high standard of living, our lives are far from risk free. Millions of Americans die each year in various accidents, or even by murder. We accept these risks as a fact of life for ourselves and even for our children. When we hear of someone dying in a car accident, we think "what a tragic accident", not "what the heck was he thinking, getting in one of those dangerous things?". But for our pets, it's a totally different story. We remove virtually all risks from their lives! They never leave the four walls of their homes except for a trip to the vet once or twice a year! It's about as close to living in a bubble as you can realistically get.
I know that isn't a lifestyle I'd want for myself. If I never risked my physical safety, I'd be bored to tears. I would not want a life where I could never leave my home, never experience the sun or the fresh air, never feel the grass between my toes...to me, a life without those things would barely be worth living. I definitely feel that I am depriving my cats by keeping them indoors. They are allowed limited outdoor access, but I fully admit to being a neurotic mama who wants to know where her children are at all times. And I can't say I'm particularly proud of it. I keep them indoors for myself, because I can't bear the thought of losing them to an accident. It's really not about what is truly in their best interests.
One point that I do have to quibble on, though, is the issue of urban/suburban vs. rural. I grew up in a rural area and now live in a residential neighborhood in a large city. There is no way I would ever allow my cats to roam free where I grew up. The traffic on rural roads goes much too fast, relatively few of the other cats in the area are spayed/neutered (increasing the chance that they will fight with my cats and if they happen to have FeLV or FIV, that they would pass it to my cats), and there are many predators in the woods out back. In contrast, I feel that my cats are relatively safe outdoors in my current neighborhood. The speed limit is 25 mph, the neighborhood ferals have been TNRed for years, the street is well lit at night, there are few predators, and there are no rednecks who think it's fun to shoot their bb guns at cats. It's still not risk free, of course, but a car that is going 25 mph has a chance to stop if a cat darts across the road. At 55 mph there is no such chance.
I'm definitely not going to say that feral cats have it as easy as their domesticated counterparts, but their lives are not sad. Just visit a colony of TNRed cats and you will see cats who are fat, healthy, and obviously enjoying their lives. Some of them will die relatively young by cars or predators, many others will live long lives and die of age related illnesses. In other words, thier lives are just like the lives of 99.999% of the people and animals in this world.
If you think about it, our indoor pets have lives that are totally different from the lives of any humans or other animals in the world. They share with us the unique advantage of living in climate controlled environments, being free of parasites (or at least relatively so), and access to unlimited quantities of whatever food they desire. Right there this makes them (and us) different from 99.999% of all the creatures that have ever lived in this world. Hardly anyone had these privileges before the past century, and still the majority of people in the world live in developing nations where average citizens do not have the luxuries that we take for granted. I can guarantee you that our great-grandparents did get intestinal parasites and other things that we think of as horrible, disgusting afflictions. The same goes for the wildlife in your neighborhood. The squirrels in the trees in your front yard are bushy-tailed fleabags, I can guarantee you.
But while we enjoy an incredibly high standard of living, our lives are far from risk free. Millions of Americans die each year in various accidents, or even by murder. We accept these risks as a fact of life for ourselves and even for our children. When we hear of someone dying in a car accident, we think "what a tragic accident", not "what the heck was he thinking, getting in one of those dangerous things?". But for our pets, it's a totally different story. We remove virtually all risks from their lives! They never leave the four walls of their homes except for a trip to the vet once or twice a year! It's about as close to living in a bubble as you can realistically get.
I know that isn't a lifestyle I'd want for myself. If I never risked my physical safety, I'd be bored to tears. I would not want a life where I could never leave my home, never experience the sun or the fresh air, never feel the grass between my toes...to me, a life without those things would barely be worth living. I definitely feel that I am depriving my cats by keeping them indoors. They are allowed limited outdoor access, but I fully admit to being a neurotic mama who wants to know where her children are at all times. And I can't say I'm particularly proud of it. I keep them indoors for myself, because I can't bear the thought of losing them to an accident. It's really not about what is truly in their best interests.
One point that I do have to quibble on, though, is the issue of urban/suburban vs. rural. I grew up in a rural area and now live in a residential neighborhood in a large city. There is no way I would ever allow my cats to roam free where I grew up. The traffic on rural roads goes much too fast, relatively few of the other cats in the area are spayed/neutered (increasing the chance that they will fight with my cats and if they happen to have FeLV or FIV, that they would pass it to my cats), and there are many predators in the woods out back. In contrast, I feel that my cats are relatively safe outdoors in my current neighborhood. The speed limit is 25 mph, the neighborhood ferals have been TNRed for years, the street is well lit at night, there are few predators, and there are no rednecks who think it's fun to shoot their bb guns at cats. It's still not risk free, of course, but a car that is going 25 mph has a chance to stop if a cat darts across the road. At 55 mph there is no such chance.
Thanks for the update Ab, I was stationed in Hawaii in 1979 - 1980. I am glad to hear about the Pets of Patriots program.
NOT ALL MILITARY FAMILIES ARE IRRESPONSIBLE....
The same idiot DNA can be found amoung nonmilitary families....
My husband *IS* military and we have 3 adopted RESCUE animals!
and am a mother of 2 kids... (gasp)!
Hope I adopted as a kitten at 8wks and she is now 6yrs old!
Hershey adopted as a kitten (still simiferal) is now 3yrs old!
and my newest additon is Reese @10wks old.
I almost wasn't ALLOWED to adopt Hershey cause I was a military family member... Its a shame that ALL military people are given bad raps..... There are a ton of GREAT military families that go above and beyond the norm to assure their pets are taken care of.......
My pets have moved with us too.
So please don't slap a big old SCARLET letter on all military folk..... thats all I ask... THANKS!
Brenda- PROUD UNITED STATES AIR FORCE WIFE SINCE 1994 AND PET OWNER!!!!!!!!!
I don't slap an immediate DNA on military, but I do screen a lot more carefully to make sure they have a rock solid history with their pets and ideally family members that will back them up in case they need help to keep their pets through a move.
It's not about the military per se, but rather a combination of factors that do lead people to give up their pets. Frequent moves is the big one - "moving" is one of the biggest reasons people give up their pets whether military or not. For some reason it doesn't even seem to occur to people that they can and should bring their pets with them when they move! Also, military salaries are pretty lousy and financial constraints are also a frequent cause for pet relinquishments.
All I ever care about is that someone is willing and able to make a lifelong commitment to caring for the animal. There are factors in almost everyone's life that will pose specific challenges to this goal, and as long as the person is willing to overcome these specific challenges then I am just fine with it.
It's not about the military per se, but rather a combination of factors that do lead people to give up their pets. Frequent moves is the big one - "moving" is one of the biggest reasons people give up their pets whether military or not. For some reason it doesn't even seem to occur to people that they can and should bring their pets with them when they move! Also, military salaries are pretty lousy and financial constraints are also a frequent cause for pet relinquishments.
All I ever care about is that someone is willing and able to make a lifelong commitment to caring for the animal. There are factors in almost everyone's life that will pose specific challenges to this goal, and as long as the person is willing to overcome these specific challenges then I am just fine with it.
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