Two new litters within 3 days!!

[ferriscat]

Originally Posted by NorthernGlow

1. My apologies, I thought that it was clear from the start, some common sense you know. I also apologise for not being able to write things in english without making everything sound complicated. I'm not accusing anyone on this site, I was just bringing out the impression I've gotten from different sources.

Nothing is clear unless it is directly stated. That, too, is common sense.

2. We do not send the studs to live with just anyone, of course the people will know what they are getting into.

The common sense again..

I hope so. . . comprehension and apprehension are different things. It's one thing to be told what to expect, quite another to actually experience it. I personally would not jeopardize my relationship with my family or friends by asking them to house an intact male. I'd only let a male be housed by another breeder in a co-ownership situation or by an individual who had plans to become a breeder, and only then with all the necessary caveats in place and unconditional permission to return the male to me.

3. I wasn't talking about YOU! Or any of the breeders on this site. Unfortunately *make up a new word* don't have another word in english for 'you' meaning a specific person, and the 'you' which means basically everyone. Or if there is, please let me know what that is. I was talking about breeders in general who live in bigger and warmer countries with different style of breeding.

You is a pronoun used to refer to both an individual or a group. When a writer quotes someone and then uses the pronoun 'you' the linguistics of English dictate that the response was personal and direct. Instead of using the pronoun 'you' it might have been better to define the subject with 'Breeders,' 'American breeders,' or 'Breeders outside of Europe.' After defining the subject, the pronoun 'they' would have then been most appropriate to use in place of whatever word or phrase you selected.

The word You is inclusive, and it is not an appropriate word to use when talking to a group of people if your intent is to exclude them from the topic of your conversation.

 

[GoldyCat]

Originally Posted by missymotus

Do excuse us from having a serious breeding discussion instead of looking at kitten pics...

Originally Posted by -_aj_-

the op was telling us about her new litters, you all told her she is a bad breeder she hasnt been back on to update where is the harm asking how they are doing? I understand where you are all coming from about length of time between letting them breed again after litters ive read all your replies to each other and as the topic is about the two new litters NOT breeding practices there is no harm in asking how they are

Originally Posted by FerrisCat

Nobody called anybody a bad breeder.

But we have been enjoying an often heated and emotional discussion about the various ways different breeders manage pregnancies, house their studs, and maintain a happy, healthy, and competitive breeding program. All of these issues directly relate to the situation presented in the original post.

Remember, this is the Breeder's Corner. TCS has other forums more appropriate for kitten pics

I guess I should have made my question more specific. I wasn't asking for pictures. One of the issues other than the timing of the breeding was a blood type incompatability. I was wondering how well it worked switching queens for the first few days to prevent the kittens getting the antibodies in the mother's colostrum.

 

[kai bengals]

Originally Posted by -_aj_-

IMO

the op was telling us about her new litters, you all told her she is a bad breeder she hasnt been back on to update where is the harm asking how they are doing? I understand where you are all coming from about length of time between letting them breed again after litters ive read all your replies to each other and as the topic is about the two new litters NOT breeding practices there is no harm in asking how they are

I agree that you should be able to ask for pictures and ask how the kittens are doing in THIS thread.

I want to point out that not all of us commenting, claimed she is a bad breeder. I don't think that at all. New and less experienced does not equate to "bad".
Some of the posts in this thread have come across as harsh, regardless of their intended meaning. I think the tone should be changed and the edgy exchanges between breeders should stop.
There are very few breeder members and it would be beneficial if we don't bicker among ourselves, knowing that there are TCS members that already have a bad enough opinion about breeders as it is.

I also think that if the original posts had been presented in a more helpful and less harsh tone, the OP would have felt more comfortable accepting advice and constructive crticism.

To the breeders:
I've been breeding cats longer than most if not all of you. Remember when you guys were newbies? I remember when I was. Your mind is like a sponge then, you want to soak up as much info as possible. Sponges absorb water readily, but not ice.

Something to think about.

 

[mews2much]

Susan does read the posts here but her feelings were hurt by some of the people here.

 

[mirex]

Originally Posted by NorthernGlow

This seriously sounds very very wrong to me. What are the studs for you if not pets? Are they just some objects you use and then what? That's just horrible.

You took one line out of my whole post.. Completely out of context!
I also wrote:

Studs are studs and not pets.. In some of the more gentle breeds you may find a very placid stud but with Devons or Sphynx you have a highly active, demanding breed who have a tendency to think it is all about them no matter how fantastic their temperament is..
Consider this.. A child or even a teenager holding a mature stud cat and it is mellow and happy having some cuddles... Then some queen starts up calling and the hormones on the stud start to kick in and suddenly he has something he is 'programmed' to do on his mind and he then wants to get down.. The child or teenager doesn't 'read' the signs and holds onto the stud.. The stud gets upset and struggles more, the kid holds tighter... See where I am going with this???
Eventually, the stud is going to attack the child because it HAS to get to that queen.. All his hormones are screaming at him and no matter how good his temperament is, hormones RULE a mature stud cat!

My studs are MY pets but I would certainly not trust a child with them for the child's sake!
My boys get plenty of attention and are cuddled and smooched all the time.. I often carry them around like babies and blow raspberries on their bellies. They have FANTASTIC temperaments or I would not be using them..

Of course, you were not to know this, but that is what happens when you take something out of context isn't it??

Sarah
Mirex Devon Rex

 

[marsch21]

I agree that you should be able to ask for pictures and ask how the kittens are doing in THIS thread.

I want to point out that not all of us commenting, claimed she is a bad breeder. I don't think that at all. New and less experienced does not equate to "bad".
Some of the posts in this thread have come across as harsh, regardless of their intended meaning. I think the tone should be changed and the edgy exchanges between breeders should stop.
There are very few breeder members and it would be beneficial if we don't bicker among ourselves, knowing that there are TCS members that already have a bad enough opinion about breeders as it is.

I also think that if the original posts had been presented in a more helpful and less harsh tone, the OP would have felt more comfortable accepting advice and constructive crticism.

To the breeders:
I've been breeding cats longer than most if not all of you. Remember when you guys were newbies? I remember when I was. Your mind is like a sponge then, you want to soak up as much info as possible. Sponges absorb water readily, but not ice.

Something to think about.

Thank you for posting that. I agree 100%

In this case I believe the OP had the approval of her vet and felt comfortable to proceed. Which is not "being a bad breeder". Breeders here don't know all the facts enough to be able make some of the statements they made. Breeding from an International standpoint, as this site is, is not a "One size fits all". I cannot say I wouldn't have done the same thing if the circumstances warranted it.

These kind of issues are actually better handled first hand then online. Although spark great discussions, they often get personal, spiral out of control, and off topic.

 

[sohni]

I think a lot of this discussion began out of concern for the cat. Also, when you post to a public site, you should understand that you are opening yourself to both positive AND negative criticism. That's pretty much the whole purpose for forums.. to learn from other people's experiences.

Now, the original poster, Skewch, has been posting here a while and we know the background. Since the boys and girls were roaming together unsupervised, she had no idea if and when they were going to give birth. That raises some flags, and I imagine that some of us were already concerned about the situation before it came up. Why? Because we love cats and want the best for them.

Secondly, a cat's normal gestation is 65 days.. so having another litter at 77 days past giving birth is going to also raise some flags.

So yes, we are interested in how the kittens are doing but we also wanted to discuss possibilities and differences in breeding ideals and reality. It is an open forum and this is what happens....

Lastly, I know I am just stirring the pot here, but it just seems humourous to me that it is Kai Bengals asking us to simmer down, considering the nastiest comments I have had on this site have come from him..

 

[kai bengals]

Originally Posted by Sohni

Lastly, I know I am just stirring the pot here, but it just seems humourous to me that it is Kai Bengals asking us to simmer down, considering the nastiest comments I have had on this site have come from him..

I TRY not to be nasty, but since one can't impart emotions into one dimensional text, sometimes people read into things that aren't there.

I don't recall ever getting into an argument with you or saying something nasty to you. If I did in the past, I apologize.

 

[goldenkitty45]

I thought the idea was to learn from experience - from other establish breeders who have been around. Yes we all make mistakes from time to time, but the key is LEARN.

When you have several breeders WITH experience offering the same basic advice, then LEARN from that. If you don't, you will end up with more problems and a bad reputation. Reputable breeders CARE about the cats - and none of us want a bad reputation in how we are breeding.

 

[kai bengals]

Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

I thought the idea was to learn from experience - from other establish breeders who have been around. Yes we all make mistakes from time to time, but the key is LEARN.

When you have several breeders WITH experience offering the same basic advice, then LEARN from that. If you don't, you will end up with more problems and a bad reputation. Reputable breeders CARE about the cats - and none of us want a bad reputation in how we are breeding.

Sure, totally agree, but when it's being shoved down your throat with a little bit of ridicule as seasoning, it's most likely hard to be receptive and open to learning.
I've been around breeders for a long time now and quite a few of them can be abrasive people, with little tact, lacking in basic manners and the "I'm better than you and know it all" attitude.
That gets old really fast.

 

[goldenkitty45]

Agree Nial - I've met some "top" breeders that I would personally never deal with due to their attitude.

 

[mews2much]

Many of you do not know this.
I almost never showed because of a few breeders were not nice at all.
Now I ignore people like that.
I made the mistake of asking to many questions.
Some of the breeders on this site have been giving me good advice.
No one here has ever been rude to me when I asked many questions.
In fact I get asked many questions by people that do not know how to show now.

 

[northernglow]

Originally Posted by Mirex

You took one line out of my whole post.. Completely out of context!
I also wrote:


My studs are MY pets but I would certainly not trust a child with them for the child's sake!
My boys get plenty of attention and are cuddled and smooched all the time.. I often carry them around like babies and blow raspberries on their bellies. They have FANTASTIC temperaments or I would not be using them..

Of course, you were not to know this, but that is what happens when you take something out of context isn't it??

Sarah
Mirex Devon Rex

How was it out of context? You are writing here things that are confirming that you meant it just as I thought you did.

And now that you have taken the children to this mix.. Yes, I trust my studs with a child. A six year old girl who has been playing with them since I got them (so she was 3 when she met my boys). The child does not live with me (I don't have kids), but visits atleast once a month. There has never been a problem and if there someday will be, I'll let this site know.

I never said anything bad about the OP in this topic, I don't know enough details or rules about crossbreeding sphynxes and devons. I was just trying to say that it's not always "impossible" to keep a stud as a pet like neuters, not all the males spray, attack and are not to be trusted.

I will stop my part of the hijacking here and go get lacerated by my boys (I'm short so they may think I'm a kid or something).

 

[ferriscat]

Nature/NOVA had a really neat documentary on the human/animal bond this week.
http://video.pbs.org/video/1139795823/program/979358043

One thing that really interested me was a bit towards the end of the documentary. A shelter classifies their cats and dogs based on their personalities and matches their owners with them appropriately. Animals are then less likely to be returned due to unrealistic expectations. One way they classify the cats is based on how much contact the cats will tolerate. The shelter worker gives them five long and slow pets, and cats who enjoy the contact are one type of cat while cats who move away from the touch are another. It was nice to see a group so dedicated to understaing the fact that some cats just get over stimulated.

I think some studs are even more prone to over-stimulation due to the hormones coursing through their veins. I've seen some boys really get into being pet. . . then they mount! I know the signs. Children don't always know how to read when a cat is over stimulated. In fact, most don't get it at all. There is a significant amount of scientific research that supports the idea that up though adolescence, children cannot even appropriately identify emotions in their own species, no less a cat! NIH did quite a bit of research on this in order to identify how and when different parts of the brain develop. This is why kids will say someone hates them or is angry when that is not the case at all. . . they have not yet learned how to identify emotion in other individuals. So if they can't even tell the difference between someone being sad/angy/serious, how can we expect the majority of children to know when a cat is telling them they have had enough? Unfortunately, a number of them only get it when kitty has told them in a not-so-nice way.

I would not let a child handle my stud, even though he is my darling sweetie. It's just not worth me risking a law suit.

 

[kai bengals]

Here is a case of an adult not being able to read the signs! She says: "this little guy is having fun" LOL, she sure found out the hard way, that he wasn't. The cat warned her several times first.

 

[goldenkitty45]

Wow - I would have read it from the first voice. And I've seen this kind of thing in a show ring too - where the owner claims "oh he's fine - he won't do anything". You only push a cat so far - if you keep pushing they WILL react.