Two new litters within 3 days!!

[northernglow]

Originally Posted by FerrisCat

I'd love to know where you've developed your perceptions of American breeders.

Well, from those "studs are not pets"-comments, the fact that most breeders sell their retired breeders (to make room for new ones), the amount of cats in catteries etc. How many litters do you approximately breed with one cat, male and female?
Of course I realize you can't keep dozens of cats in your house which is why they must be rehomed after fixing if you want to get new cats, but over here we keep those fixed cats (unless the fixing changes the cats' relationships with each other so that they don't get along anymore), and get new ones once we have time and space again (meaning usually that it happens after someone goes to the rainbow bridge..). This keeps our catteries very small, and they usually have long breaks in breeding sometimes because of this.

 

[missymotus]

Really isn't practical for any serious breeder to keep every cat that comes through their cattery.

You cannot move forward when keeping everything. And some cats are not cut out for breeding so need to be desexed for various reason.

For those desexed at 2-5 years old, the breeder would then not be bringing in anything more for 15+ years until the cats pass. That is not realistic at all IMO.

 

[northernglow]

^That makes me wonder how breeders know how their breed(s) ages if they only have young cats all the time. I've got the impression that it is important for a breeder to know what happens to his/her breed when the cats gets older so you will know if there is something healthwise to concentrate on, i.e. hips, knees, teeth.

I'm still so naive that I can't give up a grown up cat which has lived with me for a long time out of selfish reasons, just because it's somehow more convenient for me. I will give a cat away when it's best for the cat, if there is a good reason why he/she would be happier elsewhere. It doesn't mean I'm becoming an animal hoarder..hopefully.

 

[sohni]

I am curious Northernglow, do you show your cats as well? I am Canadian, but I imagine I'd fall into the 'over there' category as well. I'm thinking the entire hobby/business is much different between continent. Not only are ethics and values different, there are huge differences in opportunity, show availability or home placement.

I have only rehomed one cat so far, and that was to my Mom's house since she loved the cat so much. They have discovered the Da Bird toy and it is exercising both my Mom and the cat so it is working out well.

My mentors and friends here show cats regularly, as I wish I could, but I have relatively few shows within a decent distance. These show cats are loved as much as any pet, and I don't think that they suffer greatly if they are placed in another loving home in a situation where they possibly are not exactly what their breeder is looking for in a breeding cat. In no case are they placed willy nilly to whoever. Their prospective new homes are screend as carefully as any kitten home. If cats cannot be happy with new families, then I would imagine a whole lot of rescues must be miserable.

Saying that, I do appreciate the ideal of keeping every cat you breed or raise until it passes away. It is simply not feasible, for everyone, if you are working to improve the breed, by breeding...

 

[sohni]

Originally Posted by NorthernGlow

^That makes me wonder how breeders know how their breed(s) ages if they only have young cats all the time.

This comment does not accurately represent breeding practices in North America. Not every cat is rehomed after being retired. All of us have cats that live with us until they pass away. I'd even venture to say most of our retired cats stay with us, with a few that are rehomed after retirement (or as adults if they just don't mature as we expect) to ensure a stress free environment in the home. Additionally.... we ALL keep track of our cats and kittens when they go to new homes and we'd most certainly know if serious health conditions were occuring. In every contract I have read, there are provisions for hereditary conditions as well as buy-back clauses in case of emergency.

 

[goldenkitty45]

From what I've heard, long term use of those contraceptives cause females not to conceive. I can't see putting a cat on homones/BC to hold off breeding because its not convenient to the owner.

Yes we love ALL our cats, but you can't wait years before you bring in other cats and its not good to even be breeding females past 6 yrs old - even if you are "putting them on hold".

 

[ferriscat]

Originally Posted by NorthernGlow

Well, from those "studs are not pets"-comments, the fact that most breeders sell their retired breeders (to make room for new ones), the amount of cats in catteries etc. How many litters do you approximately breed with one cat, male and female?
Of course I realize you can't keep dozens of cats in your house which is why they must be rehomed after fixing if you want to get new cats, but over here we keep those fixed cats (unless the fixing changes the cats' relationships with each other so that they don't get along anymore), and get new ones once we have time and space again (meaning usually that it happens after someone goes to the rainbow bridge..). This keeps our catteries very small, and they usually have long breaks in breeding sometimes because of this.

I will stand by my statement that studs are not pets. You are quite fortunate that your young males have not developed any bad habits. I think breeders should love their studs like pets, but we cannot expect them to behave like the neuters. So perhaps a stud can be a pet, but he could very well be the kind of pet that pees on things, calls throughout the night, breeds anything in site, and fights to keep his territory. Not my idea of an ideal pet!

The number of litters any breeder will have out of a given male or female will differ from cat to cat. Some are only destined to reproduce once and then go on to their pet lives. Others prove themselves to be an exceptional asset to their breed and go on to produce many quality offspring. CFA has the DM (Distinguished Merit) award for such cats to signify this. Some stay forever with their owners, others do not. Some can never be rehomed due to special needs. . . As I've said before, time and space are at a premium and it is challenging to manage the goals of developing a quality breeding program while keeping every cat produced. I know I can't do it, and it's not fair to the cats to expect them to live that way.

Like Sohni, I am curious about the showing as well. I run a small program that focuses on quality, not quantity. Very small. My goal is to reproduce better with each generation. Since that's not always possible, I'll settle for better than one of the parents

Sometimes I just want to reproduce one special quality in a girl and I'll breed to an exceptional stud in order to do that. But I can't keep every girl I do such a breeding with, and so they will go on to a pet home for the cost of their spay. I don't like it, but it's what I have to do if I want to continue breeding in a way that helps to improve my chosen breed. I know how many adults I can realistically care for, and as I've said before, the spays and neuters are the first on the list to go to new homes if I want to continue to be able to breed and show cats while giving the ones in my care the time, love, and care that they deserve. This does not make me selfish. Keeping them and continuing to breed would make me selfish. This makes me a realist, and I am willing to do what is right by the cat.

And if you think it doesn't hurt to rehome a cat you spent an entire season showing. . . traveling to shows 2-8 hours away most weekend in a car. . . overnights in a hotel half the weekends of the show season. Think again. It kills us breeders to part with a cat we've bonded with like that! But we do it because it's not fair to expect them to be one in a house of many when they can be another person's one and only.

I also have some breeder friends who show FIFe--Mau, Angora, and Van people. They have expressed to me at times the need to find homes for retired cats. . . or the fact that they would have to place out a cat before being able to bring in a new one. I almost sent one of my Vans to someone in that very situation. So I know that the way you run your cattery is not the only way things are done in your neck of the woods. It's not as big of a cultural difference as you are making it out to be, but I will acknowledge that it is a personal difference in breeding philosophies.

 

[ferriscat]

Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

From what I've heard, long term use of those contraceptives cause females not to conceive. I can't see putting a cat on homones/BC to hold off breeding because its not convenient to the owner.

Yes we love ALL our cats, but you can't wait years before you bring in other cats and its not good to even be breeding females past 6 yrs old - even if you are "putting them on hold".

You were partially responding to my post, correct? I agree that it is risky to use those contraceptives on a long term basis. However, there are situations where it might be necessary. . . but I personally use them only if breeding would be dangerous to the female's health.

If the cat can be safely bred and is of an appropriate age, perhaps a lease agreement with another cattery is in order. Allow someone else to take custody of the lines and return to breeding when things are less hectic

 

[missymotus]

Many breeders here don't allow their girls to continually cycle, using vasectomised boys or other techniques (such as acupressure which is what I use) so they come off call instead of using contraceptives. My vet is not in favour of feline contraceptives and I have not heard great reports from those who have used them.

Of course there are reports to the contrary, and each is free to make their own decisions and what works for their cats.

 

[northernglow]

Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

Yes we love ALL our cats, but you can't wait years before you bring in other cats and its not good to even be breeding females past 6 yrs old - even if you are "putting them on hold".

I'm not sure who this comment was ment to, but I don't know anyone who breeds with females that old. With my breeds they will retire when about 4-5 years old.

Originally Posted by Sohni

I am curious Northernglow, do you show your cats as well? I am Canadian, but I imagine I'd fall into the 'over there' category as well. I'm thinking the entire hobby/business is much different between continent. Not only are ethics and values different, there are huge differences in opportunity, show availability or home placement.

Saying that, I do appreciate the ideal of keeping every cat you breed or raise until it passes away. It is simply not feasible, for everyone, if you are working to improve the breed, by breeding...

Yes, I do show my cats. At the moment we are on a show break though (from FifÃ[emoji]169[/emoji]) because I would have to travel to another country to get the next needed cerificate to one of my boys to get the International Champion -title (and Grand him after that). I just lost my other male I was showing, he was also one step away from the IC title (also result needed from abroad). A trip to abroad isn't an option at the moment because of my own health.. I'm planning on going to my first TICA show on August, it's held about a mile from where I live. Feels weird that at their shows I could show all 3 different breeds (BSH, BLH, Fold), while in FifÃ[emoji]169[/emoji] I can only show my BSH.. Things sure have changed a lot within a year!

I wasn't talking about keeping every cat you breed, but keeping the ones you started with, the ones behind it all. Usually the breeders here keep the females at their own home and 'locate' (don't know a good translation for it) the males to live somewhere else, like with family and friends. I also know breeders co-operating by the other keeping the males and other has the females.
I have brought a totally new color to this country, and have two cats from breeds which are very rare here, that's what I'm working with now and I want to be the first to know if the situation gets better or worse, which is one reason why I keep these cats even after they are fixed.

Originally Posted by FerrisCat

1.The number of litters any breeder will have out of a given male or female will differ from cat to cat. Some are only destined to reproduce once and then go on to their pet lives. Others prove themselves to be an exceptional asset to their breed and go on to produce many quality offspring. CFA has the DM (Distinguished Merit) award for such cats to signify this.
As I've said before, time and space are at a premium and it is challenging to manage the goals of developing a quality breeding program while keeping every cat produced. I know I can't do it, and it's not fair to the cats to expect them to live that way.

2. I know how many adults I can realistically care for, and as I've said before, the spays and neuters are the first on the list to go to new homes if I want to continue to be able to breed and show cats while giving the ones in my care the time, love, and care that they deserve. This does not make me selfish. Keeping them and continuing to breed would make me selfish. This makes me a realist, and I am willing to do what is right by the cat.

3. And if you think it doesn't hurt to rehome a cat you spent an entire season showing. . . traveling to shows 2-8 hours away most weekend in a car. . . overnights in a hotel half the weekends of the show season. Think again. It kills us breeders to part with a cat we've bonded with like that! But we do it because it's not fair to expect them to be one in a house of many when they can be another person's one and only.

4.I also have some breeder friends who show FIFe--Mau, Angora, and Van people. They have expressed to me at times the need to find homes for retired cats. . . or the fact that they would have to place out a cat before being able to bring in a new one. I almost sent one of my Vans to someone in that very situation. So I know that the way you run your cattery is not the only way things are done in your neck of the woods. It's not as big of a cultural difference as you are making it out to be, but I will acknowledge that it is a personal difference in breeding philosophies.

(I added numbers so this is more clear..)
1. I'm familiar with the DM, we have CFA here. Also FifÃ[emoji]169[/emoji] has the same award. I'm still curious about the amount of litters produced, from a good male for example.. And as I said earlier, I wasn't talking about keeping every produced cat, I meant the ones you breed with, not all of their offspring.

2. Why would it make you selfish to keep your pets and breed at the same time if you have enough time and space? I'm not talking about keeping 20 neuters at home, I only have one at the moment myself. But when it comes time to neuter/spay the others, I'm not rehoming them unless the situation for them requires it (i.e. they get stressed, not get along etc.).

3. I know how it feels to rehome a cat, I had to do it once and I'm glad but sad I did. It was best for the cat and the ones I had at home. I do understand that sometimes it has to be done, but my point was that I have gotten the impression that you 'automatically' rehome every (or atleast majority of them) cat when he/she retires from breeding.

4. I'm not sure how the breeders association has anything to do with this (you were referring to FifÃ[emoji]169[/emoji]), but I know people have different ways of running thier catteries, no matter where they live. However I only know one local breeder who does the 'recycling' thing and the rest keep their breeders as pets and show them after they are retired from breeding. The breeding is very small here, people have approx. 1-6 cats in their catteries, maybe few located elsewhere, and they keep the amount of cats like that. We all know every cat doesn't live to be 20, I just had to face that, so it's not like they can't breed for the next 20 years at all.


Sorry skewch for hijacking the thread..

I hope your kittehs are doing fine.

 

[northernglow]

Originally Posted by missymotus

Many breeders here don't allow their girls to continually cycle, using vasectomised boys or other techniques (such as acupressure which is what I use) so they come off call instead of using contraceptives.

I've never heard of acupressure used for this, has it been working for you? I'd be interested to hear more, but maybe we should start a new thread about stuff like that..

 

[GoldyCat]

skewch, how are the kittens doing?

 

[-_aj_-]

Originally Posted by GoldyCat

skewch, how are the kittens doing?

wheres the pictures or have i just completely missed them

 

[ferriscat]

Originally Posted by NorthernGlow

I wasn't talking about keeping every cat you breed, but keeping the ones you started with, the ones behind it all. Usually the breeders here keep the females at their own home and 'locate' (don't know a good translation for it) the males to live somewhere else, like with family and friends. I also know breeders co-operating by the other keeping the males and other has the females.

Then why didn't you clarify that from the beginning instead of jumping down our throats with harsh accusations?

Yes, my foundation girl has a forever home with my family. I think most breeders keep their foundations as a matter of course. But you didn't ask that. Being a breeder means you will always be faced with the choice of who gets to stay and who will go. If a new breeder is not okay with that, then they need to find a new hobby. Breeding has many high points, but its low points can be just awful.

I strongly disagree with the practice of sending stud males out to live with people who are not prepared to deal with studs and their habits. Perhaps a co-ownership situation is fair, but never to someone whose only benefit would be the dubious pleasure of sharing their living space with a randy tomcat. It's an unfair situation to all involved. Nobody should have to house a stud for another person's benefit, especially once they start breeding . . . because then comes the calling and the spraying. Been there, done that, no thank you! I would never expect someone to house my boys for me unless they were also a breeder. Shuffling your own studs onto others and then pointing fingers at those who do not do the same is small-minded and ignorant. It's not an easy solution to the "how to house a stud male" question, but it does open the door to destroy good working relationships.

(I added numbers so this is more clear..)
1. I'm familiar with the DM, we have CFA here. Also FifÃ[emoji]169[/emoji] has the same award. I'm still curious about the amount of litters produced, from a good male for example.. And as I said earlier, I wasn't talking about keeping every produced cat, I meant the ones you breed with, not all of their offspring.

I'll again maintain my original answer; it really varies from cat to cat. A male that looks good might not reproduce as well. A male who doesn't look quite as good might be very valuable to the gene pool, especially in a minority breed. A male that looks amazing might have a pedigree that limits the number of appropriate partners he may mate. You want a definite number, and I can't give you one, because there is no definite number. It varies from cat to cat. I've heard of males in majority breeds producing over 40 grands. I've seen males in minority breeds only produce one litter. It depends on too many things.

2. Why would it make you selfish to keep your pets and breed at the same time if you have enough time and space? I'm not talking about keeping 20 neuters at home, I only have one at the moment myself. But when it comes time to neuter/spay the others, I'm not rehoming them unless the situation for them requires it (i.e. they get stressed, not get along etc.).

I think you'll change your tune as the number of neuters you have increases. I try to maintain an ideal standard of care for my cats, and I will not compromise their ability to live in peace just to fill my desire to keep them for myself. Not when I continue to work to promote my chosen breed. It's selfish for me to try to keep all of them because the fact of the matter is that I will NOT have the time and the space to care for my breeding cats and all of my retired darlings in the way that I feel is most appropriate. Like I said, I'm a realist. I screen my new homes heavily and if the right home does not show up, obviously the cat stays with me.

3. I know how it feels to rehome a cat, I had to do it once and I'm glad but sad I did. It was best for the cat and the ones I had at home. I do understand that sometimes it has to be done, but my point was that I have gotten the impression that you 'automatically' rehome every (or atleast majority of them) cat when he/she retires from breeding.

You don't know me, my cats, or the way I run my program so why in the world are you making assumptions that I rehome every cat that I retire from breeding and showing? Maybe I do, maybe I don't. But you have no right to pass judgement on me or the way I run my program because quite frankly, you don't know me from Adam. I do everything in my power to keep my cats happy and healthy, and I would trust you do the same for your own.

That being said, you've experienced the pain of rehoming a cat. It doesn't get easier. As I've said before, some cats can never be rehomed due to special issues. It's a lot easier to find an appropriate home for a sweet bumpy purry retired show cat than a cat that has been returned to you, traumatized into a scared skittish creature who is prone to biting. And before anybody assumes I am talking about my own cats, I am bringing up a situation that sooner or later every breeder must face. Sometimes you wind up taking back a cat and you are it's final home. You can't keep them all.

4. I'm not sure how the breeders association has anything to do with this (you were referring to FifÃ[emoji]169[/emoji]), but I know people have different ways of running thier catteries, no matter where they live. However I only know one local breeder who does the 'recycling' thing and the rest keep their breeders as pets and show them after they are retired from breeding. The breeding is very small here, people have approx. 1-6 cats in their catteries, maybe few located elsewhere, and they keep the amount of cats like that. We all know every cat doesn't live to be 20, I just had to face that, so it's not like they can't breed for the next 20 years at all.

Many catteries are just as small out here. You have seen my website, no?

And if a breeder wants to keep the number of breeding adults under 6, then they can't possibly keep every retired cat. I think that 'recycling' is an ugly way to refer to this necessary reality when becoming a breeder. If you're not okay with the fact that you will eventually have to rehome cats, then you have no business producing more and creating a situation where there will be too many cats with too little love and attention to go around.

 

[goldenkitty45]

Unless a person is capable of handling a stud in their home for the "breeder" - its not a wise thing. You can't just bring him to your house for breeding - the girls are always sent to the stud's house to breed (at least most every breeder does this).

IMO if the breeder cannot house his/her own stud or two, then maybe they should rethink breeding! I just had females for the longest time as I didn't want to deal with a stud - would rather send the girls out. I eventually got one stud and was lucky he never sprayed; but I was prepared to build a large cage in the cattery if needed.

Right now, I enjoy just showing alters - don't have to deal with "in heat" females or spraying males. And Ocicats are cats that cycle a lot! One Oci breeder wound up losing a lot of their females because everyone was in season about the same time and she could not breed all of them - many were spayed because of pyrometra.

As long as you put yourself on a strict limit of how many breeding cats (male and female) you will have, you can handle it - its when you want to "keep" everyone you run into problems. Breeding is not for everyone and if you can't part with your adult cats from time to time - then don't go into breeding!

 

[northernglow]

Originally Posted by FerrisCat

1. Then why didn't you clarify that from the beginning instead of jumping down our throats with harsh accusations?

2. I strongly disagree with the practice of sending stud males out to live with people who are not prepared to deal with studs and their habits. Perhaps a co-ownership situation is fair, but never to someone whose only benefit would be the dubious pleasure of sharing their living space with a randy tomcat.

3. You don't know me, my cats, or the way I run my program so why in the world are you making assumptions that I rehome every cat that I retire from breeding and showing? Maybe I do, maybe I don't. But you have no right to pass judgement on me or the way I run my program because quite frankly, you don't know me from Adam. I do everything in my power to keep my cats happy and healthy, and I would trust you do the same for your own.

1. My apologies, I thought that it was clear from the start, some common sense you know. I also apologise for not being able to write things in english without making everything sound complicated. I'm not accusing anyone on this site, I was just bringing out the impression I've gotten from different sources.

2. We do not send the studs to live with just anyone, of course the people will know what they are getting into.

The common sense again..

3. I wasn't talking about YOU! Or any of the breeders on this site. Unfortunately *make up a new word* don't have another word in english for 'you' meaning a specific person, and the 'you' which means basically everyone. Or if there is, please let me know what that is. I was talking about breeders in general who live in bigger and warmer countries with different style of breeding.

Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

Unless a person is capable of handling a stud in their home for the "breeder" - its not a wise thing. You can't just bring him to your house for breeding - the girls are always sent to the stud's house to breed (at least most every breeder does this).

IMO if the breeder cannot house his/her own stud or two, then maybe they should rethink breeding!

Well, everytime my male has been mating, the females have been brought here. It's not always the case but this is how I've done it.

And your 'IMO' basically means that 90% of breeders in here shouldn't be breeding at all (because they rarely keep studs at home). This brings us back to the topic of keeping both males and females in the same household, but let's not go there again.

 

[goldenkitty45]

Sorry - to clarify the "can't keep your own stud". What I meant by it was that if the breeder could not keep her/his own stud in the house and have to be handing that stud to someone else to keep for them, then they should rethink breeding.

I would send my girls out to the breeder who had the stud as well as their own breeding cats to be bred.

Does that help clear it up? Many breeders only have females for breeding and then send them to another breeder when they want them bred.

 

[missymotus]

Originally Posted by GoldyCat

skewch, how are the kittens doing?

Originally Posted by -_aj_-

wheres the pictures or have i just completely missed them

Do excuse us from having a serious breeding discussion instead of looking at kitten pics...

 

[-_aj_-]

Originally Posted by missymotus

Do excuse us from having a serious breeding discussion instead of looking at kitten pics...

IMO

the op was telling us about her new litters, you all told her she is a bad breeder she hasnt been back on to update where is the harm asking how they are doing? I understand where you are all coming from about length of time between letting them breed again after litters ive read all your replies to each other and as the topic is about the two new litters NOT breeding practices there is no harm in asking how they are

 

[ferriscat]

Originally Posted by -_aj_-

IMO

the op was telling us about her new litters, you all told her she is a bad breeder she hasnt been back on to update where is the harm asking how they are doing? I understand where you are all coming from about length of time between letting them breed again after litters ive read all your replies to each other and as the topic is about the two new litters NOT breeding practices there is no harm in asking how they are

Nobody called anybody a bad breeder.

But we have been enjoying an often heated and emotional discussion about the various ways different breeders manage pregnancies, house their studs, and maintain a happy, healthy, and competitive breeding program. All of these issues directly relate to the situation presented in the original post.

Remember, this is the Breeder's Corner. TCS has other forums more appropriate for kitten pics