Trapping for 2nd time?

icklemiss21

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Quincy does that to Autumn occasionally, I think it is a dominance thing too, only he usually gets rolled over and smacked a dozen times for trying - that girl packs some punch.

Good news on the progress front
 
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killerapple

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Patches is doing good, but there are days she is really scared for some reason and then other days she's more daring.

A few days ago, I went in to see her and didn't realize she was out in the middle of the room. I got down low, grabbed the treat bag, and threw a treat in her direction. She went for it. I started tossing them farther away from her so she would move towards me to get them - just like I did when we were outside. That went well for a while until she decided she wasn't moving farther and just sat down.
But that was a nice moment.

She's been having some really nice moments at the screen door too. I've been playing with the wand toy under there and she just loves it. She even did the happy belly flop, where she kinda just flopped over to her side when reaching for it.

I think yesterday, I had one of her mouse toys with feathers on it (that I play under the screen door with) in her room and was dragging it around in her box - I was wondering if she would go for it with me holding it. And she did - so her little paws were (dangerously) close to my hands. She made contact with my hand at one point and hissed in reaction to that, but it was good she got so close to me. Not sure if I'll continue that for safety reasons but it was cool she got so close.

Batman is still being a little obnoxious male with her unfortunately. I'm not sure what to do - do I just let them work that out? Do I break it up when she's getting ticked off or let her get him off her on her own? (She does, but I feel bad for her - and sometimes she'll flee the box and then be out in the open and get nervous. Poor girl.)

So things are going pretty well I think. I am unsure about letting her out to rest of house. I see pros and cons to both options. She's doing good with me in the room, but she's by that screen so much, she's probably bored and wants to get out? But with Batman being annoying at times, I can see how it's nice for her to be in her private room still and get more trusting of me too. I think I will know it when the time is right maybe?

Edit: We also hear her calling for Batman at times we think. She's getting more vocal. She's either talking to her toys when she's playing and/or calling Batman.
 

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Sounds like Patches is coming along real good. I think we have some of the same problem getting the two cats to act normal with each other.

Buddy just wants to charge Tiger. I think Buddy thinks Tiger is his litter mate or something. But when they make contact Tiger explodes and there is a heck of a fight. It's usually under something so I can't see who is doing what. There is alot of screaming and the fur flys. Then when I put them in another room or with the screen barrier they act like nothing happend. Read my thread, I explain it there.

I don't think it's some much the individual cat. Your Patches is feral while Buddy is the complete opposite. He's as tame now as Tiger is. I think it's more in the way each cat sees each other and how they react to each other given their body language or there approach to each other.

I don't think Batman charges Patches like Buddy does Tiger. Buddy just trigger the fight in Tiger. While Batman takes the slower approach and gets on Patches nerves in time and action. I think we are both at a point wondering what to do next. I think in time they will work things out themselves. That's how it's got to go. It's really up to them.

Yes I feel bad for Tiger too, what did he do to deserve this obnoxious(to use your description) cat.

I think if you leave Patches out in the house she is going to hide under the furniture for a while. Tiger did for a few weeks. Now Buddy has no interest in hiding. He checked out ever inch of the house and loves to fly up and down the stairs. He is such a sweet cat, I can hold him upsidedown, hug him, kiss him on top of the head and he interacts very well and has already bonded with the wife and I. But with Tiger he is completely unsocial. He even stalks him when he first sees him. He lays flat on the floor like he is ready to charge and pounce, which he does. He has no manners.

I don't know what to tell you. I'm waiting for the golden answer myself.

You could try the whole house thing and see what happens. You might be surprised in a good way. Sometimes it's hard to predict what two cat will do. All I know it's going to take time.
and
 

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Talking to her toys or calling Batman...


I'm sorry - I really don't know what to suggest to do about Batman when he gets obnoxious.
Seems like she was willing to tell him to go stuff it, so to speak... ???? See what happens if you let it go?

And as to the whole house thing..... if you're ready to potentially have a "shadow" kitty - maybe leave the screen door open one night when you head to bed. ????

When we moved from the RV into a house, we released the cats into the bedroom. The concept of "upstairs" and "downstairs" didn't exist for them - and they were all feral rescues, so the change in territory (except for one of them) was rather traumatic LOL. We kept the bedroom door closed the first couple of days to help them feel secure - then we just left it open one night. I don't think anyone ventured out... but after a couple of nights we'd find toys re-arranged upstairs not in the bedroom. The longest took two weeks to venture out. Getting them to use the stairs was a different issue
Very scary monsters potentially down there, apparently.
Of course once they figured it out, the stairs were great fun...

My point, I guess, is that even if you open the door, Patches may choose not to leave her safe space. Of course, if she does and gets scared, she may hide somewhere else and you won't want to traumatize her by fishing her out.... and if she does leave her room - she may not go downstairs.... a lot of possibilities. But since she and Batman get along fine, really, at this point, it's kinda just whether you feel like seeing what happens - knowing she may hide under the couch or something while you guys are out and about and not asleep.

Are you able to put a towel where she sleeps? If you can, you may want to work on getting a few towels that smell like her, so you can put them around the hallway upstairs or something.... ??????????? That is - if you think you're ready to "open the door."


 

lovewhiskers

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Patches mom, my intuition tells me that it would be better if she stays in the room and gets more used to you. I too think she will go into hiding in the house and avoid you if you open the door now. I know you want to try something different because you feel you reached a plateau with the process...

Marina
 

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As far as dominance thing this is something you have to let the cats work out. they are trying to figure out who is alpha kitty. Batman was there first, but that doesn't really mean anything. If Patches challenges him she can easily end up being alpha.

As far as dominance problems if there is no blood being spilled I usually let it go. If someone starts getting hurt you need to redirect their attention. If you can't break them up and they won't listen to you nothing works like the pillow toss in their direction. With my two I ended up breaking up fights for about a year at that point EG stopped trying to challenge Isabell for alpha.

What you describe sounds like Batman is trying to establish himself alpha. While Patches isn't taking it lying down she doesn't sound like she is trying to establish herself as alpha. If he pushes her too far though she will establish herself as alpha. In reality all you can really do is wait for them to work it out.

As far as letting her out of the room. I'd probably wait until shes more comfortable with you.
 
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killerapple

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Thank you so much everybody!! Yeah, it does seem like Batman for some reason thinks he needs to establish himself as alpha - but Patches does not want to be alpha so I'm not sure why he thinks it's an issue. My husband and I feel so bad for Patches - she really gets cornered in her box. There have been times she's gotten out of the box during their play/fight stuff, but she really is literally backed into a box. We'd like to get another box and make a L shape and cut a hole out and connect the two, so she has an escape path. In the meantime, I am letting him in there still but I'm trying to a) wear him out with play beforehand b) spoil him with treats but it is still a little tricky. Patches seems very bothered during the confrontation but not so much when he's gone, so I'm not sure. I'm trying to let them work it out but man, I hate hearing/watching the paw batting. I feel bad for Patches.


Patches spends lots of time by the door still and we have a morning routine. She's at the door, I make the noise to open, she goes to the box, I feed/etc, put my hand out with treats, she sniffs, I put treats down in a trail out of box, I clean litter box, she eats treats (leaving box halfway) and watches me for a bit, then sits in box close to front. Then when I'm leaving and closing the door, she's on her way to sit by the door.

Well this morning we had some excitement and change to the routine.


I had put a blanket by the door for her so she could sleep on that rather than floor - which she liked. This morning though she wasn't there - she was sitting in the front of the box but her head was poked out. So I walk in the room and I extend my hand (no treats!) to her, from the side of the box - and she stretches out to sniff. I do the food/water thing, then get treats, go to her - she again sniffs my hand. I drag a toy around and she goes for it, not hissing this time at me when she got her paw close to me. I put the treats down, do the litter box thing - and guess what? Instead of looking at me and then sitting in the box, she just walks to the door. My husband (who stands outside the door waiting for water and the litter) and I was like 'what??!' so she just sits there by the door. Not caring at all that I'm still in the room. We're dumbfounded
so I walk across the room (she looks a little more nervous but not terrified) and I get some treats and put them outside her box. I then tell my husband to start touching the latch so it makes the noise that indicates to her she should leave - so she does her relaxed walk to the box - and I'm still standing nearby - and she eats her treats, then sits in the front of the box.
Then I leave the room.

I can't believe she did that!!! It's awesome!!!!!
She really must be getting more trusting of me.


We're still on the fence about keeping her inside or letting her to go rest of house. At this point since I'm not comfortable with Batman in there with her for long periods of time, she'll be in there for a while longer. But I think she is starting to want to get out and see the rest of her kingdom.


I'm proud of her.
I think this morning really proved she's getting more comfortable in her new home. Considering what things were like 6 months ago, I feel this was pretty amazing.
 

ldg

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That must have felt AMAZING!


I think your idea of creating an "L" shaped "box" with an escape route is a great idea.


We used to build huge 3D kitty "condos" out of boxes - taping them together, cutting holes in them so they could go up and through....
Don't know if Patches is ready for THAT yet - but having a way to not be cornered sounds like a good idea.


But I'm just busting with smiles for you this morning!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

tigerclaw

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Sounds great. They do surprise you at times.

One comment in your routine. I don't get the latch noise to get Patches back to her box. Maybe she would like to stay at the door when you come in. I always believed in the voice recognition. Your there and i'm here and you have your reasons that I don't see because i'm not there. Just something I would do different.

What you might think about is to just start talking to Patches before she can see you coming to the door. If you are just using the screen door then she can see you before you make the latch sound. What I always believed is that as soon as your cat hears your voice they know right then who it is. A latch is a sound with nobody connected to it. I think Patches would make up her mind whether to go to the box or not as soon as she would hear your voice. Maybe she will surprise you one day and just stay at the door as she did while you were in the room.

As far as the fighting, I have the same thing. Each cat acts different and it how the other cat sees that action and reacts to that. My Buddy seems to be very young and wants to play like litter kittens do. Crouch down, wiggle there butts a little just before they run in and bounce on their litter mate. Tiger sees this as not play but an attack and goes right into the fight mode with the claws, hissing and screeming.

I think it harder for Patches to adjust because she isn't tamed down yet. It will take her more time. I put Tiger in a training cage with 2" x 3" screening that simulated one on one. Tiger will growl, hiss and raise his paw if Buddy gets too close. I have to put one in a cage because the fighting is too intense. I'm going to do the cage training for a couple more week then let them go one on one and solve the rest of their differences themselves.

Yeah, poor Patches gets trapped in the box and can't go anywhere. Tiger gets cornered and he comes out fighting. I think in the end they just have to work out things themselves. I'm like you in that I feel sorry for the cat that just wants to mind their own business and be felt alone. Good luck with your kittys and please take my comments as suggestions and do what you think is best in your mind.
 
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killerapple

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Originally Posted by LDG

That must have felt AMAZING!


But I'm just busting with smiles for you this morning!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Me too!!! And she did it again this morning!!!!!!!!!!! I will put a new post about that.

It's amazing how she will just randomly decide 'ok, I am going to do this now' and totally move a step forward in her trust.

Originally Posted by tigerclaw

One comment in your routine. I don't get the latch noise to get Patches back to her box. Maybe she would like to stay at the door when you come in. I always believed in the voice recognition.
I don't make the noise on purpose - the noise happens as soon as I start unlatching. But let's say Patches wouldn't move when I open the door. She would get pushed by the door when I would open it - which would not be nice to her and probably scare her. I'm avoiding that - basically smushing her out of the way with the door. I think she just understands the routine - that when I am standing tall and that latch gets started moving, that it's her time to go in box and then I come in and do my thing. Batman understands the latch - he almost knows how to open doors. He's working on the rotation of the door knob - he is SO SMART.
I do talk to Patches so I think I'm doing the right thing.

Originally Posted by tigerclaw

As far as the fighting, I have the same thing. I'm like you in that I feel sorry for the cat that just wants to mind their own business and be felt alone. Good luck with your kittys and please take my comments as suggestions and do what you think is best in your mind.
Thanks Pete - I really appreciate the suggestions!! I believe you suggested the L type box set-up a while ago, pointing out she has no escape. Hopefully our kitties will work out their hierarchy soon.
 
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killerapple

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Another exciting morning with Patches!

She was at the door, then casually walked to her box when I started opening the latch. And when she walks, she looks like a normal cat now - she is not crouched down at all, her pace is normal, and her tail is that relaxed content state! So she goes in the box and I do my thing (she sniffs my hand for treats - and now she will sniff my hand about 75% of the time when I put it to the screen - she'll inch forward to sniff it sometimes!) To get to litter box, I had to walk by her (she was halfway out of box eating her treats) and my feet were probably within 2-3 feet of her - and she didn't care or even look up. So when I"m scooping the box, she fully stepped out to look at me, then just walked over to the door (with my husband and Batman at other side). She sat down and then I went across room, etc. We couldn't just hang out that way forever (this is in morning getting ready for work) so I again got the treats, and I tossed them near her box - so that got her attention and she casually walked over to investigate.

Yeah! She basically was like 'oh! treat!' and walked over to find it, and didn't really care that I was around. I mean, she had a little skeptical look to her, but nothing really fearful of me.
With her by her treats, I used the opportunity to get out of the room - then she again was walking from box to come to the door - again in a normal cat position, casual as can be.

If you would've seen her walking around in the room this morning, a person would think that I just have a cat in a room and probably wonder why. She looked like a cat just walking around her room, content. We have a ways to go, but I'm soooo happy about this new change in her. It's a shame I didn't have more time in the morning to just hang out in the room and see what would happen.

Looks like I need to get in the room with my trail of kibble and try to get her to eat closer to me again. I think that's the next step I need to take.


Go Patches!!!!!
 

tigerclaw

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Walking within 2-3 feet of Patches is great news. Wow! she is really trusting you. Don't you just love it when your cat goes in a positive direction. She's come along way.


A few more thoughts about the door.
If you remember I brought in a semi-feral cat into my cages that gave birth to 4-kittens last summer. Well she would hiss, grawl and spit at me at the sliding back deck door if I would open it. I told my wife that I don't think i'll be able to tame this kitty. Then I noticed that she was interested in the wand toy through the glass. I worked to slightly opening the door a crack and sliding the wand toy through the crack. She responded favorably and in know time I was able to touch her back with the toy. That was the first break through in eventually touching her. The wand toy was an extension of my hand.

My thought was the screen door could be that extension of your hand. Something touching her with you very close to her. Don't think of completely opening the door right away, but slightly touch her and then pull back and repete. This could be that first contact with her. You might want to do this on your knees so you don't look so over-powering. You could also try a wand toy at the door like I did. Look at it as a tool to get to touch her. Just some thoughts, it worked very well for me.

Keep up the good work, you're making great progress.
 

ldg

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Originally Posted by killerapple

...
If you would've seen her walking around in the room this morning, a person would think that I just have a cat in a room and probably wonder why. She looked like a cat just walking around her room, content.
Go Patches!!!!!
It's the kind of thing that makes you want to call in sick to work!
Bet your heart was about to leap out of your chest.
 
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killerapple

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Eek, it's been a while! It's been a crazy month - I changed jobs.
I was really busy with interviewing, then putting in my 2 weeks, training the person taking over, then getting into gear at the new job. So that's why I've been so quiet.

Nothing really new with Patches except that we decided to buy these nylon cubes and tunnels for her - with the thinking that we can remove her safety box and replace with these. That didn't go over well. She's not a fan of synthetic weird things - which makes sense now. She is 2 different kitties - she is confident kitty when she's separated by screen door and much more timid when I'm in the room. She spends more time in other areas during day - her other cubes (non-nylon) - and if I come in, she finds an opportunity to sneak to her box. She doesn't feel safe unless she's in the box when I'm in the room.

Batman is doing a bit better with her. He's starting to just flop down and play with her toys, rather than bother her relentlessly.

She spends much of her time outside the door. And what's funny is that if I walk by the door and she's not there, I will talk to her anwyays - and then if I walk by like 2 minutes later, she's poof! There by the door.


I'm thinking we'll be letting her have free roam in a few months?

Sorry for the lack of updates - just been crazy!

I'll keep you all posted, once things settle down a bit. She's doing good though.
 

lovewhiskers

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Oh, how great to hear she is doing well! It sounds to me like she wants your company but she does not want your company
. Sweet Pea used to do the same thing; when I was in the room with him he was shy and quiet and as soon as I left he would start to whine and cry at the gate. How typical for a "normal" kitty cat!

I really think she is getting more and more comfortable with you and am so glad about it.

Sweet Pea did not like and still does not like the tunnels but he LOVES the cubes.

Congratulations on your new job
!
Marina
 

ldg

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Congrats on the new job!
Hope it's going well and you're enjoying!

I'm sorry you're still the big scary people, but she sounds like she's doing really well, and I'm so glad to hear Batman has calmed down a bit around her.


 
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killerapple

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Originally Posted by LoveWhiskers

It sounds to me like she wants your company but she does not want your company
.
Funny and true! That's how Batman was at first when he was still leery of us when he was a baby.

I'm sitting in the hallway and Patches is at her side of the screen, on her side, belly 2/3 in the air, all stretched out. We were playing with the wand toy (Batman too, on my side of the screen) and she was doing the happy belly flop! Flopping over on her side, paws in the air, as she happily played. I love seeing her happy.


Now if only I can get her to be this happy when I'm in the room!
 

tigerclaw

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Hey, been awhile.
Belly flops.... great progress. Doesn't it seem like the screen is some sort of magic ward. With it up theres magic in the air and everyone is cool. Take it away and things change. My two are angels with the screen up, take it away and all hell breaks loose. Thats great if your cats are happy, thats the main thing, the rest will come in time.
 
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