Trapping for 2nd time?

[killerapple]

Originally Posted by Momofmany

Oh the joys of interpretting cat behavior when we are not cats!

I'm trying to put myself into Patches paws here. I'm inside a house with still somewhat scary humans, and my safe zone is a box where a cat that smells suspiciously familiar is coming in and wanting me to have a thing called "fun". I'm not familiar with this concept of fun as I've lived my life outside just trying to survive. I tolerate this cat because I'm pretty sure he's my son, but 1) he's old enough that he should be respecting me by now, and 2) I'm still not entirely settled in my environment.

(back to myself) It's clear to me that there isn't that much friction between them or it would be very obvious to you. I've witnessed knock down drag out cat fights and until you see it happen, rough play does look like a fight.

If it were me, I'd continue giving them the chance to interact, and I would go so far as to let them have that interaction with me outside of the room to see what Patches would really do. She's holding back on her real interactions with him while you are in the room, so it's hard to judge her real behavior here. I'd give that a try and if the interaction becomes more violent, then slow down with their interactions and go back to scent swapping and other things.

Thanks Amy! Thinking through Patches eyes, that makes sense. My husband and I were wondering if maybe Batman doesn't understand 'cat language' fully (his brothers left him at around 3 months). Would that affect any of his reading of her body language - maybe him not knowing that she is being submissive? Or is that just naturally intuned to them?

He's magnetized to her and it's quite hard to distract him now with toys or anything in the room. She doesn't seem to really mind him trying to play at first - it just gets bad later when she's had enough. This evening I was watching a little and then keeping out of eyesight - basically taking a peak to see what was going on every now and then. At first it's him doing a lick usually to neck or somewhere (with her in the meatloaf cat position). Then he'll start to nibble her neck and she'll close her eyes sometimes and just move her head down, her ears are normal relaxed state. Then eventually he'll be not standing anymore, kind of laying down and nibbling on her neck, then he'll paw at her a little, start nipping more, and I think it's then where she gets irritated and may hiss/nip back. She will growl at him. Then at some point it will get a little elevated and he'll start to sit more upright with a swishy tail (but not full) and she will keep herself still low. Then they were doing some swatting... She had her belly exposed and everything by the end, basically in the corner of the box cornered. I wasn't watching the full thing, but it seemed that it'd be 15 seconds of staring, Patches growling, then maybe swatting, repeat. Makes me feel bad for her...

I could take a video of this with my camera and post and see if you think it's bad. No fur or saliva on Batman this time (he had some saliva on his neck last time). So I don't know, I just wish he would leave her be! I hate him backing her into the box in a corner. I can tell from her body language that she is not challenging him at all - she just wants to be left alone and he just messes with her (play or not). Everything she does sounds like the behavior a cat does that does not want a challenge.

Batman is still obsessed with her and the room - bringing toys, sleeping outside door, crying for her - and she brings toys to the door as well.

That does make sense to let him in there alone without me there to interfere with her reactions. Makes me nervous but does make sense.

Heh, last week when he was just licking her and that's it, I thought I had it easy and there would be no more squabbles! Oops, was wrong there.

Not giving them treats after these 'play' sessions.

Hmmm, idunno. Let me know if I should take a video and post.

 

[killerapple]

Originally Posted by tigerclaw

Hi,
I spent the last two nights reading your entire thread. I find it very interesting and once I got started I couldnâ€[emoji]8482[/emoji]t stop. I didnâ€[emoji]8482[/emoji]t notice until last night that we are more or less in the same boat as per feral cats, with your beautiful Patches a 3-yr feral female and my Tabby a 4-yr old feral tom.

1.) Do you feed Patches the same food morning and evening assuming you feed twice a day?

2.) Is the food mixed canned and dry or on or the other?

3.) How close to the hide box do you place the food bowl usually.

4.) Do you encourage Patches to come out and eat by talking to her until she comes out to eat and from what distance to the food bowl?

5.) When do you give Patches her treats. Is it the same routine as with the food as for distance to the treat site and the voice encouragement?

I think I can help you or at least give you a different slant to your process as I see it. Iâ€[emoji]8482[/emoji]ve learned so much from Tabby and he has come so far as did your Patches, that I would like to share my experiences with you. I think both of our kittyâ€[emoji]8482[/emoji]s are so much alike that we can benefit from sharing our adventures. I know Iâ€[emoji]8482[/emoji]ve enjoyed your thread immensely so far.

That's so cool! I'm glad you'e enjoyed reading the thread!! It sure has been an interesting journey. Can't believe that 9 months ago, there were no kitties in my life. I have all the time in the world for her, but yeah, it's the whole understanding what's going on that is frustrating at times. I wish I could read her mind (and Batman's!)

I would love any advice you have!

I think you're totally right - that Batman is definitely being dominant and Patches is very accepting of that and tolerating her teenage son pretty well - but he's pushing her buttons a bit much.

1.) Do you feed Patches the same food morning and evening assuming you feed twice a day? She just gets dry food in the morning.

2.) Is the food mixed canned and dry or on or the other? Right now it's just dry. I was offering her wet food at night - leaving it out for an hour - and it was left untouched day after day, so I stopped. Recently tried again but was ignored. She ate anything I put out for her outside but she's finicky inside. Maybe she associates the wet food too much with the trapping experiences, not sure. (But I had dry food to help get her the 2nd time, so not sure if that thinking makes sense.)

3.) How close to the hide box do you place the food bowl usually. Her food and water are across the room. Her box location actually changed after we put the screen door up, so box was moved to basically act as room divider in a way to help with having the litter box be not visible from screen door (so she could use potty without Batman watching so she would feel safer). I'll catch her coming back from the food sometimes in the morning when I walk by the room but usually she'll eat at night.

4.) Do you encourage Patches to come out and eat by talking to her until she comes out to eat and from what distance to the food bowl? Since she doesn't go for wet food, I can't try that unless I just tried with dry treats. There was one night where she actually ate the treats I put out for her when I was in the room - but only one time.

5.) When do you give Patches her treats. Is it the same routine as with the food as for distance to the treat site and the voice encouragement? I give her treats whenever I'm in there for any reason so she associates me with the yummies. I talk to her/myself whenever I'm in there giving food/cleaning litter box.

I've stopped going in there and reading every night for an hour ever since the screen door got put up. Instead I guess I have focused more on letting Batman interact with her and me just observing. I really do think she's looking at me in a different way now - more curious.

It's so cool seeing her look at toys with interest now instead of fear. She's doing pretty well I think! I just hope Batman figures out to leave her be at some point without damaging any potential cat friendship there. Oof!

I need to catch up on your thread about Tabby.

 

[tigerclaw]

Hi,
Thanks for the feedback. Let me first say that I know you have gotten help from so many people here and some daily for over four months since your 2nd trapping of Patches. My intent here is not to put any person down who has spent many hours helping you through this difficult task by disagreeing with some of their suggestions. If I do disagree with someone my intent is NOT to make them sound like they don’t know what their talking about, but to just give you my thoughts and explain why I disagree or think something should be different based on my experience and what I have learned from Tabby my own feral cat.

Some of the biggest tools in gaining your ferals trust are, A.)the sound of your voice, B.)food, C.)treats D.) Catnip toy and E.)a strict routine. There are others but these are very good starters.

A.) The sound of your voice is key. It’s a sound that is instantly recognizable. I would not knock on the door before or during the entering of the room. To me a knock can be frightening, an unknown sound. For example, If you are sitting in your front room and someone knock at your front door, what is the first thought that goes through your mind. Who and what is that. Same thing for your cat. I would just talk to Patches 5-seconds before opening the door and while you advance to her hide box area. I talk to Tabby all the time i‘m in the basement.

Tabby’s cages are in my basement. The steps face away from the cages so that Tabby can’t see me coming down the steps. But as soon as I start to open the basement door I begin talking to Tabby. He knows my voice right away. The other day he was halfway in his litter box when I came down stairs. As I turned to face his cages I saw him and continued talking to him in a low voice. He looked a me and gave me his usual greeting meow and continued digging and did his duty and buried his droppings just like I wasn’t there. It was all trust through voice recognition.

B.) Food should be his favorite to entice her to come out and eat. Tabby love the canned food dry food mix. It’s the smell of the canned food that gets him to come out and eat at least the first few weeks when he was very unsure of everything. The first week or so after capture I free fed(dry food) him with a bowl in the top and bottom attached cages. I was concerned just to get him started to eat.

Then to get him to come out of his hide box to eat his food with me in the room, I used the canned food mix with the strong smell of the canned/dry food two feet from the hide box opening was enough to get him out. The first time it took over a half hour with me undetected 20 feet away. The first time he saw me standing 20 feet away after he started eating he just stared at me for 10 minutes and didn’t move. I didn’t move either for any movement at that time would have sent him straight for the hide box. He finished eating and turned very slowly and crept to the hide box and went in.

After he got used to eating out of his hide box, which was a few days, I began talking to him all through his meal in a low tone of voice. This helped greatly in calming him while eating. Even today I talk to Tabby all the time I’m in his area.

C.) Treats are another way to instill trust. A way to get your Patches to come to you from her hide box. Same routine as with the meals. I usually give Tabby some treats just after he eats. He loves Purina “Whisker Lickin’s”, Tender Moments….“soft & delicious“, chicken flavor. I usually give him four at a time after meals and maybe once or twice during the day.

D.) The catnip toy is a very powerful tool. I like to use fresh catnip rubbed on Tabby’s favorite soft flexible mouse toy. I grow catnip in the back yard, it even grows under the snow during the winter months. Just this morning I gave Tabby the catnip toy and he starts licking it and then rolls on his back and plays with it. He bats it up in the air and really loved his play time. I talk to him during his play session so he associated my voice with pleasant fun things.

E.) Routine, Same thing at the same time day after day is important, meals, treats, litter cleaning etc. etc.. I even have a 4’ shop light on a timer right by Tabby’s cages that goes on at 6:00am and off at 7:00pm. Every day in the morning and afternoon I talk to Tabby with the cage door open about 6’ away for ½ hour at a time. After a point it’s not necessary to do this every day especially if you have a busy life.

In the beginning when your cat is in the hide box and you routinely have the talk sessions, a leg movement after ½ hour was a breakthrough. Then the head on the mat. Then a leg stretched out the hide box door are all breakthroughs. A part of the head sticking out and so on. This is best accomplish by setting up routine talks with your cat.

At meal time I would place the food bowl a couple feet from the entrance with some good smelly wet/dry mix food. Sit 20 ft away at first and work to 5 feet and so on. You can play that by ear. Talk her to the bowl with your sweet soft voice, they love baby talk too, Tabby does. In the very beginning it’s a time consuming process but well worth it.

Room setup:
I’ve studied your room layout and have these suggestions.
I would make the corner opposite the window as you turn left as you come though the door the center of activity starting with the hide box directly in the corner facing the window that is on the opposite side of the room. I don’t prefer your type of hide box. It doesn’t look like Patches feels very secure in there, it's too wide open in the front. I think it should be a box enclosed on all sides with a small entrance way something I am using(see 1st part of my thread. As an example Tabby’s hide box is 18” deep, 23” wide, and 16” high with a 9” x 9” opening. I would use just one hide box so she gets comfortable in it. It will have the same feel, same light coming into it, she will see the same view when looking out of the box. With multi boxes every box is different. I think at this point she needs a predictable environment everything the same day after day so she feels at ease in the room. I would place the litter box not more than 6 feet away from the hide box on one side and the food and water feeding area the same distance but on the other wall so it’s in front of the hide box entrance.

Until Patches gets comfortable in her environment I would screen her immediate area including the hide box, litter box and food area so when Batman is in the room he can’t get at any of that stuff, including going into Patches den. Patches den(hide box) is her secure place, her lair, den, a private area for the moment not to have another cat invade that space. I think it would be disrespectful of Batman to just come into Patches den uninvited. I would screen that corner area so Batman could come within a few feet of the entrance way of Patches den. Then when Patches is good and ready she will come out to greet Batman and later on invite him to spend time with her. Right now I think he just bolts right in and stands over her in a dominant position licking and biting her. It looks like it’s a little too soon for that. She sits there scared and calm submissive. Lucky for Batman she doesn’t have a temper. A good sleeping area for you would be just outside her box maybe 10-15feet away at first. You would know this better than I. Then later on when Batman is no longer allowed in the room remove part of the screening so Patches can roam the entire room during day and night periods.

This is how I see it and would setup something the same way for Tabby when the time comes. Right now I don’t think Tabby’s ready for another cat just yet. He needs to bond with me more. Maybe after I can touch Tabby then he should be ready. But it’s not to say that petting another cat by example another cat can learn by watching the interaction. I’m not to familiar with that process so I won’t comment.

Well, good luck and please take my comments as ideas as I see it and use them as you wish. You are doing a real good job. It’s all depends on the cat too. Each has their time frame and tolerance level. Batman is playful and rambunctious and Patches is good hearted and tolerant. Both are real sweeties. Keep up the good work, I’m reading your post now every day and learning a lot from you. You are getting very good advice and I hope what I’ve said above hasn’t offended anyone. It’s just the way I see things right now, and as we learn things will definitely change. Patches and Batman are two very lucky kitties.

 

[killerapple]

Last night, Patches played with me with the wand toy!!!!!

I had a feeling this would happen soon, seeing the 'look' in her eyes watching me drag the wand toy around. She eventually went for it, holding it town with her paw, then chewing on it. We played for a few minutes. She eventually must've gotten out of the toy's spell and realized I was holding it and would look at me a little mistrusting and stop looking at the toy, but we played for a while.

Very pleased with my girl!!!

 

[killerapple]

Originally Posted by tigerclaw

Let me first say that I know you have gotten help from so many people here and some daily for over four months since your 2nd trapping of Patches. My intent here is not to put any person down who has spent many hours helping you through this difficult task by disagreeing with some of their suggestions. If I do disagree with someone my intent is NOT to make them sound like they donâ€[emoji]8482[/emoji]t know what their talking about, but to just give you my thoughts and explain why I disagree or think something should be different based on my experience and what I have learned from Tabby my own feral cat.

Hi Pete,
Thanks so much for such a long thoughtful reply! I don't think your feedback and suggestions would offend anyone. I think there are universal truths and some things may apply to some kitties in different ways, as each kitty is different and different things work for different kitties/people. And all feedback is much appreciated, that's for sure!!

Some things you have suggested - such as putting the wet food out far from me and waiting for her to eat it with me in room - are things that unfortunately I can't try, because I haven't found that magic food that she goes nuts for. She won't eat wet food even if I put it in her room and leave for an hour - she just completely ignores it. So I haven't found the 'kitty crack' that I could do something like that, which is definetly a shame, because I know that would really be helpful with her. I haven't tried every brand/food under the sun yet though so maybe I will find her weak spot soon and then can try what you suggested.

I agree that ideally Batman wouldn't be jumping into her lair/safe box so freely but I am not sure it is possible for us to really screen off more of her room at this time. I am just not letting Batman in as much. Batman has been great for her in many ways - he taught her how to play. She had no clue until a couple weeks ago as all of her toys were ignored until he started playing in the room with me.

I'm actually not sleeping in there anymore. When I was, her safety box was in the corner opposite the room when you walk in under the window so I was far across the room from her. I moved the safety box location to the middle of the room to encourage her to interact with Batman - maybe it wasn't a good idea moving it, but she's choosing it over the carrier in another corner. I could look into rearranging it again so her box is in that back corner where it was originally, but I'd have to get another type of divider so the litter box isn't visible to Batman from outside (to give her some bathroom privacy). But I'm not sure moving things around is a good idea since she's had this layout a month now and is doing ok. She can kinda hide under the big coffee table (which has a blanket draped over it) and sneak around the room that way if she chooses.

I really want to film the two - how they interact at the screen door. My husband and I have seen her walking toward the screen when Batman is there when we've walked by the room at times (but if that bad timing happens, she'll go back to her box since we spooked her). We're dying to know what they do and if it's different than when she's in the box and he bolts in there.

Originally Posted by tigerclaw

Well, good luck and please take my comments as ideas as I see it and use them as you wish. You are doing a real good job. Itâ€[emoji]8482[/emoji]s all depends on the cat too. Each has their time frame and tolerance level. Batman is playful and rambunctious and Patches is good hearted and tolerant.

Isn't that the truth! Batman is so goofy and Patches is being quite patient with him.

Thanks again for all of your advice. I will think about what I can do and keep you posted!!

 

[tigerclaw]

Originally Posted by killerapple

Last night, Patches played with me with the wand toy!!!!!

I had a feeling this would happen soon, seeing the 'look' in her eyes watching me drag the wand toy around. She eventually went for it, holding it town with her paw, then chewing on it. We played for a few minutes. She eventually must've gotten out of the toy's spell and realized I was holding it and would look at me a little mistrusting and stop looking at the toy, but we played for a while.

Very pleased with my girl!!!

Playing with a toy is mighty strange for a feral especially attached to something like a wand. That's really great. There's alot of trust building playing that close to you. Tabby got started with the playing game with his mouse toy with fresh catnip rubbed on it. He loves fresh catnip. After his evening meal today he laid on his back 4' away from me and played with his catnip mouse toy. He tossed it a few times in the air. Then I got the stick feather toy and he plays with that for now through the screen. He's still learning to play with something on the end of a stick. He knows it's different and wants to kill it sometimes.

What Tabby does is play with the feather stick toy similar to the wand toy of Patches, then plays for awhile and then realizes what he is doing and a little fear I think comes into play and he backs off and wants to run up to the upper level. So what I do is stop playing with him and just talk to him which calms him down and he forgets that he wants to go to the upper level. He realy responds to my voice. Then I introduce the toy to him again and don't try to force it upon him and he seems to do better that way. It's a process of trust and getting used to playing with a strange object. In the wild any small bird or animal they catch and play with they eventually kill it and eat it. The toys are just a little different and strange to them because it's a little different kind of play and there is this big thing playing with me that I think but not sure is my friend. That really great to hear. Another step forward for Patches. It's the positive direction that get me excited and keeps me going. That a way Patches

 

[tigerclaw]

Have you tried mixing wet and dried together or her favorite treat placed on top of the dried food. Also I would place the food within 2’ of the box so she can smell the food. The smell always got Tabby to come out back a couple months ago. There is just too much fear for her to cross the room and eat. I still feel to that if you would block off half of the front of her hide box with a piece of cardboard and duct tape it to the box she would have a different feeling in her box and I think a more relaxed state. Now she has no place to hide, she’s in full view of everything. Every afternoon Tabby sleeps completely hidden inside his hide box. Most of the day he is sitting outside the box way on the other side of the cage. I think they need to get completely out of site during periods of the day. That’s de-tox time to relief built up stress.

I have the opposite problem. Tabby charges his food bowl when he’s hungry. I’m afraid he’s going to nail me with either a claw or his teeth. I feed him in the lower level of the two cages on top of each other and by the time I get the door open he's already has jumped down to the lower level and heading for the food bowl. The other day he scared the living “H” out of me. I didn’t pay that much attention to him because he was in the upper level. The last thing I heard was this low growling scream (hard to describe) that sounded like a cougar(mountain lion) scream. I jerked my hand out from under the bowl in the nick of time. I’m thinking he just warns me if my arm is still in the cage when he wants at his food bowl. Now I’m paranoid that he is going to get me some day. I’m thinking of placing a short three inch wide thin board 18” long under the bowl so my hand isn’t in striking range. I’m not really sure he wants to get me but it’s in the back of my mind. He just wants to eat and wants me out of there.

I’m thinking you might just try putting a house screen in front of the hide box to keep Batman out of Patches den if you wish instead of screening the whole area.. Temporary until maybe Patches come out to greet Batman. It’s a judgment thing. Patches is making great gains so keep up the good work. Ferals do take their own time to do things don’t they. Yeah, a vid would be great to watch.

 

[momofmany]

Pete, for the sake of killerapple, I'm going to link to your thread about Tabby so that she can read thru the trials that you've been going through. IMO, Tabby is the most "feral" of the cats going through the socialization process right now.

I'm going to offer some general insight into our roles as advisers.

I've been working with feral born cats for many years now, and one of the things that they've taught me is that every single one of them responds to humans differently, therefore there is no cookie cutter approach to socialization.

Laurie (LDG) and I try to get a sense of the degree of their feralness (if that's a word) and adjust our advice accordingly. All advise is welcome, and I will always caution the owner to use their judgement for anything that anyone (including myself) offers based on their judgement of the individual cat. We're all at a disadvantage in that we don't see the cat first hand and are depending on the descriptions of the poster, which are often times clouded by an emotional reaction from the poster. It is very normal to be stressed while socializing a feral cat.

There are a number of concurrent threads right now about feral cats that are IMO, at very different emotional points in their socialization. I encourage anyone who is going through this process to read through all of them, get a sense on where these cats are at, and find the things that are working for people. The word "feral" is often used to label any stray cat, which is why I ask for people to look at the degree of feralness, not just accept the label.

 

[tigerclaw]

Originally Posted by Momofmany

Pete, for the sake of killerapple, I'm going to link to your thread about Tabby so that she can read thru the trials that you've been going through. IMO, Tabby is the most "feral" of the cats going through the socialization process right now.

I'm going to offer some general insight into our roles as advisers.

I've been working with feral born cats for many years now, and one of the things that they've taught me is that every single one of them responds to humans differently, therefore there is no cookie cutter approach to socialization.

Laurie (LDG) and I try to get a sense of the degree of their feralness (if that's a word) and adjust our advice accordingly. All advise is welcome, and I will always caution the owner to use their judgement for anything that anyone (including myself) offers based on their judgement of the individual cat. We're all at a disadvantage in that we don't see the cat first hand and are depending on the descriptions of the poster, which are often times clouded by an emotional reaction from the poster. It is very normal to be stressed while socializing a feral cat.

There are a number of concurrent threads right now about feral cats that are IMO, at very different emotional points in their socialization. I encourage anyone who is going through this process to read through all of them, get a sense on where these cats are at, and find the things that are working for people. The word "feral" is often used to label any stray cat, which is why I ask for people to look at the degree of feralness, not just accept the label.

Thanks Momofmany,
You are ablolutely right in what you say above. At first I was a little reluctant to say anything about the way someone is trying to tame their stray. semi-feral or wild feral cat. But I thought I could help others especially the more set in their way feral cats. I did suggest alot of changes to killerapple's setup and I apologized to all that were helping her for many months. My intent was to help and not offend anyone.

I do try to mention that my suggestions are based on my experience and to use it as they see fit. I also mentioned that all cat aren't the same and I didn't want to put anyone down by disagreeing with them. I did say that I respected others oppinion and hard work helping for months at a time. I just hope I took the right approach and didn't step on anyones toes because i'm new here and no one really know me.

 

[momofmany]

Originally Posted by tigerclaw

Thanks Momofmany,
You are ablolutely right in what you say above. At first I was a little reluctant to say anything about the way someone is trying to tame their stray. semi-feral or wild feral cat. But I thought I could help others especially the more set in their way feral cats. I did suggest alot of changes to killerapple's setup and I apologized to all that were helping her for many months. My intent was to help and not offend anyone.

I do try to mention that my suggestions are based on my experience and to use it as they see fit. I also mentioned that all cat aren't the same and I didn't want to put anyone down by disagreeing with them. I did say that I respected others oppinion and hard work helping for months at a time. I just hope I took the right approach and didn't step on anyones toes because i'm new here and no one really know me.

Hey Pete! No, I didn't feel that you were stepping on toes here and sorry if I came off that way. I made this observation because there are some that come onto this site, read a comment and take advice literally. I doubt that anyone active in this thread does that, but I have to remind the general audience from time to time.

 

[killerapple]

Originally Posted by tigerclaw

Have you tried mixing wet and dried together or her favorite treat placed on top of the dried food. Also I would place the food within 2â€[emoji]8482[/emoji] of the box so she can smell the food. The smell always got Tabby to come out back a couple months ago. There is just too much fear for her to cross the room and eat. I still feel to that if you would block off half of the front of her hide box with a piece of cardboard and duct tape it to the box she would have a different feeling in her box and I think a more relaxed state. Now she has no place to hide, sheâ€[emoji]8482[/emoji]s in full view of everything. Every afternoon Tabby sleeps completely hidden inside his hide box. Most of the day he is sitting outside the box way on the other side of the cage. I think they need to get completely out of site during periods of the day. Thatâ€[emoji]8482[/emoji]s de-tox time to relief built up stress.

I've put wet food actually right outside of her safety box - so that's pretty close to her - and she still will ignore it. I guess I just haven't found her 'magic' food but I haven't tried everything yet.

I don't think she's too scared to move for food. We've seen her move in the morning when we're making noise getting ready for work (have seen her leaving her water/food dish area).

I'm letting Batman in the room less - not letting him in when he's hyper - and it's given me some more one on one time again, where I can see if she's in her playful mood (or if she's looking scared, then I'll leave). She hasn't hissed at me the past several days actually - probably because Batman hasn't put her on edge as much.

I did let Batman in last night after he had a nap - since he was a bit groggy and purry. He went in there and licked her for a while. I stayed not visible to them. They did end up play-fighting or whatever but it did not get as heated as it was in the past. I'm trying to keep the visits short. Now that she's playing, I'm going to bust out Da Bird with both of them in the room and see how that goes. I'm just being careful with when I bring him in there - if he's hyper, he's not allowed in now.

If he's half asleep, I'll let him in.

I'm still quite pleased she is playing with the wand toy! I was telling people months ago that she would never play with toys since she was an adult feral. She sure proved me wrong! And yep, I am extremely close to her when we play. Probably with 2 feet. She would eat a foot away from me outside. I think the trust between us is definitely growing, even though she still is very cautious and mistrusting. I think the past month with Batman has had a huge growth and change for her with being more comfortable inside, even with him being a pest to her.

As an aside (and a thanks): I would be lost without Laurie and Amy for all of their support. I would be so confused (and probably at times feeling hopeless) without all of the wonderful guidance I have received - and it's so nice to have you all cheering me and Patches on when something good happens.

Whenever something amazing happens, my first thought after I tell my husband is to run on here and post!

I sincerely appreciate all of the advice and suggestions and time people have taken in regards to helping Patches and I.

 

[tigerclaw]

Wow! you're making great progress. With Patches playing with the wand toy that close is big time. With a feral, play toys are very much a new experience.

It's to bad that Patches doesn't have a favorite food. I fed Tabby all last summer outside with the canned/dry food mix that he loves. When I found out of his urinary crystal condition the vet put him on a Hills prescritpion c/d diet. Each meal was 1/2 can(2.27oz) of this sloppy canned food mixed with an 1/8 of a cup of the dried food. It was much too sloppy for Tabby's taste. After a while he would only eat 1/2 the food. His stool got hard too because there is very little fiber in the mix. I switch to the urinary w/d canned food with more fiber and not so runny. I changed the mix to less canned and more dry to his liking and he eats like he did before.

Tabby won't eat straight canned food either, I found out that when I was giving him the worm medicine. I figured that he loved some canned food mix with the dry. So I figured he would just gobble up a ball of canned food with the powdered medicine in it. Well I was wrong. The first day he eat it ok. The second day he wouldn't touch the straight canned food. So the third day I went back to the mixed food. Mixed the medicine in a little canned food and then in a bunch of dried food to his favorite mix ratio. He gobbled it up.

Cats can be picky eaters at times. When I was feeding Tabby outside last summer, one evening it was raining slightly, so I just put out the dry food. After a while he came to the food and sniffed it and went away. I when outside to take a look and the rain turned the foos a little mushy. I put some new dry food out and he came back within an hour and eat the whole bowl.

The reason I mention the importance of feeding Patches near you is to build trust and also so she knows where the food is coming from. When she bonds to the food source that's big in establishing trust and knowing that this person is the food provider. With the food across the room she might think Batman is providing the food. Eating close established a close bond.

At first i got Tabby to come out of his box from 20' away. Now he charges the bowl and after he finishes his food bowl he wont leave until I give him his treats. I ran out of the treats the last couple days and he kept meowing and wouldn't leave his feed area. So a had to thaw out some frozen chicken I fed my snapper and give some extra to Tabby. He loves boiled chicken. I boil a batch for my snapping turtle and freeze it, then thaw and serve.

For Tabby i've set up some goals for him. I call them training sessions. There are six sessions with two goals in each session. I'm thinking of starting a new thread and ask for comments on training sessions for establishing trust and socializing, stray, semi-feral and feral kitty's.

As an example the 1st session would consist of estabilshing close food and treat eating habits with your kitty approx 2-3'away and 2nd would be to establish playing 2-3' away with a catnip toy free of wand or string and to establish playing with a wand toy 2-3'away. Just some established goals that someone can use as a guideline to establish trust and socialize their wilder kitty.

I've read too that if a family cat and new feral cat get socialized together before a strong bond is established with it's provider. The feral might look to the cat rather than the provider as it main friend and provider of stress free comforts. I'm thinking just where the socializing of cats(cat to cat) should be in the progressive learning sessions. My first thoughts would be some time after the feral can be touched and petted by it's provider. Not sure though.

Your making great progress with Patches and Batman both together. Just don't shorten your sessions with Patches. They are very important. You got to get her to eat close to you again. Oh, the secret food formula.

I had a game I used to play with Tabby when he was still outside. I would put his bowl out just before sunset, he never came during the day. There for awhile I wanted to establish what kind of food he prefered. So I would place three identical food bowls in his feed area side by side. One bowl with dried food the 2nd with canned chicken mix with the dried food and the third with canned fish mix with the dried food mix. He always went for the canned chicken/dried food mix. That's what he basically getting today. Hope you find a combo that works.

I haven't touched Tabby yet. I'm wondering when he is going to give me a lick on the cheek.

Wouldn't it be something that we could actually pet our ferals. I don't know about you but I can't wait.

 

[ldg]

First of all - GO PATCHES GO!

That's GREAT news!

Then I just want to say - Pete, your post(s) is/are EXACTLY the point of these forums - for people to share their experiences!

Amy and I have been around long enough that Amy felt she had to say what she did because some people read advice appropriate to one situation and apply it to another - but there just aren't any set rules. We all have our own experiences and have learned from others' experiences....

....but sharing thoughts is in no way stepping on anyone's toes.

The dialogue is GREAT - and hopefully helpful to a lot more people than just Killerapple and Patches.

 

[killerapple]

I bought a different feathered wand toy for Patches (no worries - Batman got a new toy as well). I played with Batman first with it so she could watch, then later got her in on the action. At one point, I was able to again have them sitting together in the box like polite kitties. Then eventually Batman did get distracted and wanted to play with/harrass her. Eventually got him out of the room. Gave her a couple minutes to relax, then played with her with the new wand toy.

She again played.

She's moving a bit more for the toy too, extending both paws out pretty far. Maybe my next milestone (which may be a huge one) would be to use the wand toy to actually draw her out of the box.

And I'd like to find her soft spot with wet food still.

All in all, another good night!

 

[killerapple]

Originally Posted by tigerclaw

Wouldn't it be something that we could actually pet our ferals. I don't know about you but I can't wait.

I think my heart will explode when/if that happens! I felt an enormous burst of joy/happiness when she started playing with toys on her own. Same thing basically happened when she first went for the wand toy.

 

[tigerclaw]

Originally Posted by LDG

First of all - GO PATCHES GO!

That's GREAT news!

Then I just want to say - Pete, your post(s) is/are EXACTLY the point of these forums - for people to share their experiences!

Amy and I have been around long enough that Amy felt she had to say what she did because some people read advice appropriate to one situation and apply it to another - but there just aren't any set rules. We all have our own experiences and have learned from others' experiences....

....but sharing thoughts is in no way stepping on anyone's toes.

The dialogue is GREAT - and hopefully helpful to a lot more people than just Killerapple and Patches.

Laurie,
Thanks so much for saying what you did. I didn't like to disagree with you guys because I realy like you people and I don't even know you guys that well. Thanks for being so understanding.

 

[ldg]

I sure don't know everything and am still learning. What I suggest is just that - a suggestion. Doesn't mean something else won't work better.

 

[killerapple]

Had another play session with the two of them, which goes pretty well. They're not literally playing with me together, but I'll play with Batman with the wand toy, then move it into Patches box for her, then so on. At times Batman will get in the box to play and have his tail right in her face and she'll just sniff it and I'll try to lead him out of there. Eventually Batman again wanted to play with her. After some hisses/smacks/growls, he finally left the box and I got him out of her room... Then I had some alone time with her to play again. She's a little hesitant because of me, but the toy will eventually get the best of her.

I will also lightly touch her fur with the toy - touch her paws, around her back/neck - she responds fine to that. It's really cute watching her play. She will stop playing and just stare at me for a long time, but I'll use the toy to distract her from that so she can focus on the feathers and not her fear of me. I'm pretty close to her when I play. She hasn't hissed at me at all this week. Maybe that hissing lately was due to the Feliway being near end of cycle (maybe I need to do 3 weeks instead of 4).

Not much of an update, but how cool to have played with her 3 days in a row!

They're still bringing toys to each other... it's darn cute. I don't think it's a coincidence that her favorite toys are always near the screen for Batman. (I assume favorites because they're the first to get moved.)

My birthday is coming up next month and I'm going to ask my husband for this poster.

 

[ldg]

It's Patches and Batman!

So many reasons for smiles! ...and touching her with the wand/toy is great.

 

[tigerclaw]

Hi,
Looks like Patches and Batman's play sessions are coming alone great.

I would like to take this opportunity to mentioned that I was misinformmed about the role a resident cat can play in the training of a new cat like Patches. I think I mentioned that it was best to bond with the stray cat first before the stray cat begins to bond with the resident cat like Batman.

After talking with Momofmany about this same subject the information I received that I read somewhere wasn't exactly true in all cases. It seems that it is best to introduce the resident cat as early as possible to the stray or feral cat that was captured. So you are doing the right think by having Batman as a role model in training Patches by sight and action to show that it's ok to interact with this gaint new human friend.

I apologize for the misinformation I so adamantly past on to you. You are doing the right thing with Batman and Patches. I'm planning to get Tiger introduced to Tabby, I believe he's ready. Keep up the good training sessions.