Some general info - feeding a new kitten

[yoshke]

Hi all,

We are from Israel, thank you for having us in your forum.

Two days ago we adopted a kitten from the street. We took it to the vet and he administered some deworming shot, and gave us kitten kibble "hill's science plan".

She poops a lot, and very soft. She is not very energetic. And she stinks, bad. But I guess it makes sense, two days ago she was eating garbage on the street...I called the vet and he said its the worms coming out, and that only now we are getting her on her feet, so to speak.

Anyway, I'm trying to understand this forum- what I have is dry food, right? And what is wet food? What is raw? Is it raw only when you make at home or is there store bought?

We are basically vegan. Does fish constitute as meat for the raw diet? If not, what does?

Thanks!

P.s is the catfood industry just another industry like the dairy and meat and eggs, run by doctors who suggest foods due to lack of knowledge in nutrition and because it is financially beneficial, n one way or another, to do so?
Aw man...

 

[Willowy]

P.s is the catfood industry just another industry like the dairy and meat and eggs, run by doctors who suggest foods due to lack of knowledge in nutrition and because it is financially beneficial, n one way or another, to do so?
Aw man...

Yes, it is. Very much so. So it's a good thing you're doing your research!

OK, the most important thing to know is that cats are obligate carnivores. This means they need MEAT, and have no need for veggies or carbs at all. Kibble, unfortunately, needs to have a lot of carbs/starches just to hold it together. There are a few low-carb kibbles but the other problem with kibble is that it's dry. Domestic cats descend from desert cats who got all their moisture from the flesh of their prey. So they tend not to drink enough to keep themselves healthy when eating dry food. Canned food and raw food have plenty of moisture, so the kitty doesn't need to drink much.

Cats shouldn't have too much fish. So a good raw diet should be mostly chicken, lamb, rabbit, etc. There are prepared raw diets available, but I don't know if there are any suppliers in your area. It's worth looking for, especially if you would be uncomfortable handling meat to make a homemade raw diet.

A good canned food would be next best, again I don't know what's available in your area, but check the labels to make sure there's plenty of meat and no/very few grains and veggies.

 

[yoshke]

Wow, thanks so much for the reply. That was a good intro for me.
Today at a pet store they said there is no food that's all or mostly meat. I'll look into the wet canned food.

Is it alright then to just give the cat raw chicken breast? Or with some liver and other intestines? Grinding it is not an option here, maybe the butcher would...are there any "recipes" for such a raw food mix (thinking about it makes me a bit nauseous). Or is grinding just an extra, and I can give her one meal breast, the next liver, etc?

 

[ldg]

Welcome to TCS! FYI, the owner, Anne, is Israeli AND vegan!

...and someone should consider starting a vegans feeding raw food support thread. :lol3: There are at least two other vegans feeding raw to their cats now: wolcar and avalyn. I know it's hard. Unfortunately, the "vegan" equivalent healthwise for a cat is homemade raw food.

To feed raw without grinding it and using a recipe, it's not that difficult if you can source the organs. It's called "prey model raw," or "frankenprey." Cats eat entire animals - so muscle meat is not a balanced diet.

Ideally, you would have 3-5 proteins in rotation. Chicken, duck, lamb, goat, other poultry, beef... not sure what's available there. Several bone-in meals should be fed weekly (the diet is "balanced" over the course of a week, typically), and secreting organs (usually liver or kidney) need to be fed. Many feed hearts and gizzards, but these are internal muscles, not the same as a secreting organ, so they're treated like muscle meats. The guideline is approximately 80% meat, 10% bone, 5% liver, and 5% other secreting organ. For a nutritional snack, eggs can be fed (raw) (or just egg yolk) once or twice a week, and a tinned sardine (in water, no salt) can be fed a couple of times a week for the omega 3s.

Here are some links to get you going!

http://catcentric.org/nutrition-and-food/raw-feeding/getting-started-tips-for-frankenprey-feeding/

http://catcentric.org/nutrition-and-food/raw-feeding/a-frankenprey-and-whole-prey-feeding-guide/

To help you create a menu:

A sample menu: http://catcentric.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/My-Feeding-Schedule.pdf

A calculator: http://catcentric.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Frankenprey-Calculator.xlsx

Oh - bone-in meals. Cats normally eat small mammals, so only small bones should be fed (think chicken wings or ribs).

Hope this helps!

 

[yoshke]

Thank you!!!

I will get to reading.

Two questions-
We have a very small kitty. There is still chance of worms, disease (no vaccine yet), and since we have zero experience we are feeding the vets kibble. Don't you think it's better we start the experiments with wet or frankenprey (sp???) after the vaccines?

Second, can the variety be just beef, turkey and chicken? I'm not sure what else can be found around here (kosher issues). Maybe some dead mice can be purchased, like the ones snakes eat. Isn't alright to mix prey and franken... diets?

Also, I'll add that it's stunning how so many of our beliefs are myth. My parents have had a cat since 2004, and...how amazing it is that we came to ignore the animal as it is - an animal with a lineage and natural habits, and deteriorated to giving out what's easy and well marketed.

Then again, not so surprising given the fact that we do the same to ourselves in much greater magnitude.

 

[ldg]

:lol3: Nope, not so surprising (as I take my highly processed pot pie out of the microwave.... )

Yes, you can definitely feed them whole prey, and feeder mice or chicks typically sold for snakes is actually the perfect package for a cat. I don't know about there, but here they're prohibitively expensive. And some of us that aren't vegans still can't stomach the idea.

I do know goat and lamb should be readily available (my husband lived in Israel for 10 years. He served in the army (combat) during the Lebanon war. ).

But yes, beef, turkey and chicken would work. :nod: Using a rotation of different parts is excellent too (breasts, thighs, leg, and different cuts of beef, etc.).

I don't know what the food chain there is like, but if your kitty hasn't been treated for worms or whatever yet - that really isn't an issue. And the vaccinations don't affect anything you'd be feeding, raw or otherwise. Because this is a rescue kitty, if you can obtain a good human acidophilus supplement, I do recommend using that daily. For a young kitten, I'd use 1/2 the smallest recommended adult dose. Who knows what the kitty was eating with mom - the probiotic will help restore the good gut bacteria. I don't know what kosher issues there would be with that, most have lactose as a base.

But kitties don't have food preferences set, and most take to a raw diet quickly and easily. :cross:

For a young kitten, it's really best to feed them as much as they want to eat, in as many small meals a day as you can manage with your schedule. Most of us feeding raw feed our adult cats 3 meals a day (before work, after work, and before bed). But young kitties do need to eat more frequently. Little kitties typically eat 8 - 12 ounces a day (most adult cats eat between 4 - 6 ounces a day, depending on age and level of activity). Let's see, in grams, that works out to roughly 225g - 340g for a kitten, and 110g - 170g for an adult.

 

[yoshke]

For my kitten that means almost half her weight in food!! Vet had her t 750g right off the street...

Just like in human life, I'm just looking for the excuse to hold on to the acceptable, agreeable vet-approved kibble. I'll make the plunge sooner or later.

Kitties get the same acidophilus as humans?

Thanks and peace

 

[ldg]

Well how much is she eating now? Weigh it, and increase it by about 75%, and you have the "wet food" equivalent weight. My guess is she's eating about that now! If not, then she won't need as much raw food. Cats always eat less raw food than commercial food, because so much more of it is bioavailable. On raw, her poop will firm up, and it won't smell AT ALL. You'll see (and smell) the changes right away when you start feeding biologically appropriate food.

But the most important thing is that you do what is comfortable for you!

As to the probiotics - there are plenty sold for pets. But most do not have live cultures, they all have fermenation products. Just a plain old human acidophilus supplement is better for them (according to my holistic vet).

 

[mrblanche]

Much is said about the hazards of kibble and the benefits of wet foods, but it is also true that the cheapest store brand cat food is probably a better diet than what most street cats eat.  Others have told you the problems, but you should be aware that there ARE some pretty good dry foods.  No, they aren't the ideal best.  But they have supported cats around the world for the last 70 years or so.

Cats fed solely on kibble are prone to too much weight gain, for one thing.  But that's not a big problem with kittens; they need all the nutrition they can get.
 

 

[ldg]

I wonder what kibble is available in Israel?

Whatever you decide to feed kitty, the best food long term will be high in protein and low in carbohydrates. Even better if there's limited ingredients, no grains, and the protein is animal-based. :nod: Most kibble is only 10% moisture, so the guaranteed analysis as presented on the package won't be so different when looking at just the dry matter. But to figure out if wet (canned) food is low carb, you need to use a Dry Matter Basis converter. This is one that makes it easy. http://catcentric.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/DMB-Calculator.xlsx

Many foods don't list the ash content. It's a good assumption that canned food is 2% or 3% ash (minerals), and that dry food is 8% ash - so if the information isn't provided, you can use those numbers.

A good site for an overview of species-appropriate nutrition information: http://www.catinfo.org

 

[carmina piranha]

Hello!

I'm vegetarian, not vegan, but wanted jump in and say "you can do it!"  It was so gross to me at first, but we had kittens who had that stinky soft poop for months, so cutting up raw meat was less gross than that!  (they are allergic to any grain, it seems.  And the moment they switched to pure meat--perfect, non-stinky poop).  After years of feeding cats only kibble, I now understand the importance of moisture in food.  If you find getting into the raw diet to be overwhelming, in the catinfo site Dr. Pierson stresses--I'm paraphrasing--"the simple rule is that any wet food is better than any dry food."  

Of course, that's like saying "any salad is better than any potato chips" but we've all seen salads that aren't so healthy.  That's why I consider raw to be the ideal diet, since we're at home making the best "salad" we can, without fillers and expired meat.

 

[sugarcatmom]

...and someone should consider starting a vegans feeding raw food support thread.

There are at least two other vegans feeding raw to their cats now: wolcar and avalyn. 

Make that 3. A "vegans feeding raw" support thread would be hilariously awesome! I'm actually not terribly squeamish about raw meat after handling it so much, but hubby (also vegan) squeals like a girl if I hold a bag of chicken hearts anywhere in his field of vision. Sometimes I even chase him with it 

. Mostly I feed pre-made frozen raw though, since time-wise it's the most efficient, and also cuz I can get a wider variety of protein sources (like kangaroo and wild boar!) that would be more difficult to find otherwise. 

 

[ldg]

I didn't know you were vegan Sugarcatmom! And Wolcar, if you're reading this, I'm sorry - but it was so funny! Poor thing went to a butcher (for the first time) to get meat for her cats. She came home with what she thought was turkey (and a few other things) - the "turkey" turned out to be beef brisket. :lol3: Obviously a little miscommunication error, but being a meat eater, I can't imagine looking at beef and even wondering if it's turkey. :lol3:

 

[yoshke]

Hi!

So, two weeks with the kitten now. Still haven't changed from the kibble - finding it scary to change from vet's directions. 

And...today we visited him, for vaccination and de-worming shot and a 2nd checkup. she's up to a kilo from 750g! fatso.

He said the diarrea is from worms (which we are treating), and that the raw food yall are suggesting can lead to FUS (feline urinary/urological syndrome), and also that raw food could contain parasites, so if we feed her raw it is better to boil it first. 

I hate to play this ping-pong between yall and him - it's just that he is a doctor, who speaks to me with authority and confidence, and you are all sweet and loving but you are all online! it is a leap of faith to accept advice from the internet over a doctor's. I hope you are patient with me and understand that i am trying (really) not to be stubborn, just trying to do what i feel is right. 

Also he said dry is always better that canned. Also said specifically not to change her diet now because she is still off the street, dealing with the vaccines, etc.

I think i will wait a while longer, to see if the diarrea indeed stops or lessens. 

Meanwhile: 

HER POOP IS SO STINKY

There, just wanted to get that out. 

Thanks folks!

 

[ldg]

Aw, of course we understand!

But there are plenty of resources online that aren't opinion-based from sweet people.

I think you might have missed some earlier links, but I'll include them again, and add a few more.

First, you may want to take a look at a site written by a vet. She makes her statement, provides links to the published research (in peer review journals) that supports her statements, and then elaborates throughout the rest of the site: http://www.catinfo.org

As to the FUS/FLUTD position of your vet, I'm sorry, he's clearly not aware of the incredible volume of research published on the subject. Dr. Pierson's site (above) addresses this in great detail. Dry is NEVER better than canned. It is easier and more convenient, but never healthier for the cat. Dr. Pierson's site explains.

Other resources for you:

"Effects of nutrition choices and lifestyle changes on the well-being of cats, a carnivore that has moved indoors." http://brf.vpweb.com/upload/JAVMA 2011 Nutrition choices - indoor cats.pdf This is published in the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association.

"Idiosyncratic nutrient requirements of cats appear to be diet-induced evolutionary adaptations" http://journals.cambridge.org/actio...7588&fulltextType=RA&fileId=S0954422402000070 (you can access the full article, but a link to the full article doesn't work). This was published in the Nutrition Research Reviews of the Cambridge Journals. Very simply, it explains that cats are obligatory carnivores, and are designed to eat raw flesh - they have a high protein requirement and no carbohydrate dietary requirement.

http://www.chiro.org/nutrition/FULL/The_Essential_PUFA_Guide.shtml "The Essential PUFA Guide For Dogs And Cats." This was not published in a peer review journal to my knowledge, but the piece is cited to research that was published in peer review journals. Scroll down for cats - it has a very nice synopsis of their need.

This is an article written by a small animal Veterinary Endocrinologist. "Can Increasing the Amount of Fat or Carbohydrate in a Cat's Diet Compensate for Low Protein Intake?" http://endocrinevet.blogspot.no/sea...0-05:00&max-results=20&start=14&by-date=false Again - this is written on his website, but the entire piece is cited to research that was published in peer review journals.

Other information in your quest for education.

If you want to learn about what's in pet food - and why - this is written by a Harvard Law student: http://leda.law.harvard.edu/leda/data/784/Patrick06.html

And, of course, there are the many resources in the Raw Feeding Resources thread, stickied at the top of this forum: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/240809/raw-feeding-resource-thread

This is the discussion that led me to switch to raw: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/239691/nutritionally-complete-assurances-for-our-pet-food

Here is a discussion of parasites with links to information: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/248317/raw-feeding-and-parasites-questions

And as the AVMA recently took a position that one should feed a specific type of raw meat if feeding raw, here was a letter I sent them (extensively cited and researched) prior to the policy meeting: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/246595/avma-to-vote-to-take-a-stand-against-raw-feeding/90#post_3229546

I hope these help, but this certainly is not an exhaustive list. :lol3:

Please, feel free to ask any further questions!!!!

 

[ldg]

...but there are also the many, many threads here in this forum where people switched their kitties - many of them with diarrhea for months - and a species-appropriate diet resulted in normal poop within 1-2 days of being fully on the diet.

Current threads:

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/251266/newbie-at-raw In this thread, the vet was convinced the problem was stress (initially thought it was parasites), and various things were tried for 4 months. 2 days after switching off kibble, kitty had solid, formed poops.

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/249931/new-to-raw-feeding-and-have-questions Vets and mom struggled to find a food that would help this kitty's GI system that was impacted by accidental ingestion of chlorine. Months of diarrhea later, 2 or so days into raw feeding: formed poops.

No point in posting dozens of links - you get the idea.

 

[yoshke]

Too kind.

I will do more reading.

Thanks a million. Really.

 

[mschauer]

I hate to play this ping-pong between yall and him - it's just that he is a doctor, who speaks to me with authority and confidence, and you are all sweet and loving but you are all online! it is a leap of faith to accept advice from the internet over a doctor's. I hope you are patient with me and understand that i am trying (really) not to be stubborn, just trying to do what i feel is right. 

Does it help to know there are vets who whole heartily endorse feeding a raw diet? Whether you find a vet who does depends entirely on which clinic you happen to walk into.

But, I think you are very wise to not put too much faith in information you get online. I strongly suggest you seek out lots of information and opinions from various sources and use good sense and intelligence to make up your own mind. 

 

[ldg]

Good point, mschauer.

Yes, there are many pro-raw vets. Some of them have websites and promote a species-appropriate diet.

One of the most famous pro-raw vets is Dr. Elizabeth Hodgkins, who worked for the pet food industry for 20 years - until one of her cats developed diabetes, and she solved the problem not with insulin, but with a raw diet. She left the pet food industry. She is recognized as one of the foremost experts on feline diabetes, and has published quite a bit of research on the subject. This is her website, and what she has to say about diet: http://yourdiabeticcat.com/diet.html
.

Another very famous vet in pet nutrition is Dr. Jean Hofve. This is her website: http://www.littlebigcat.com/about-2/ And her articles on nutrition: http://www.littlebigcat.com/category/nutrition/
.

Another very famous vet is Dr. Karen Becker DVM. http://www.drkarenbecker.com/dvm.html The plug for her book: http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/real-food-for-healthy-dogs-and-cats-cookbook.aspx You can search through her videos (and if you click tabs at the top, articles) here: http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/videos.aspx Her video and article, "The Completely Healthy 'Pet' Food Your Vet Probably Vilifies..." http://healthypets.mercola.com/site...nd-healthiest-diet-for-pet-cats-and-dogs.aspx


(Although Dr. Hofve has this to say about Dr. Becker: http://www.littlebigcat.com/blog/vet-expert-falls-for-universal-pet-food-marketing-trick/ )


There are also many breeders that feed raw, and have done so for literally decades. One that comes to mind is Michele Barnard of Blakkatz Cattery. She has also published a wonderful book (all of the people mentioned in this post have) on natural feeding of cats. Here is her website: http://www.blakkatz.com/ Here is her take on dry food for cats (referenced): http://www.blakkatz.com/dryfood.html



And for a list of catteries that feed raw - this is the google search. http://www.google.com/search?client...rceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&channel=suggest There are pages, and pages of them, many with sites that discuss the hows and whys.

 

[yoshke]

Ok. 

Kitty flatulence bad enough to convince me to take the plunge. 

Can i start with just the muscle and work my way from there in few days or should i start with the full 80-10-5-5 business?

Can i not offer a lot of variety to begin with? Does fish count as a type of meat or just those omega3 sardines once a week?

How does the feeding differ seeing as how she is a 3 months old kitty?

You mentioned Anne the owner (of what?) is israeli. Do you think there is any chance i can get her user here / email / phone so i can chat to her about raw feeding in israel? 

Lastly another question:

What do raw feeders do if they want to leave the kitty alone for a day or two? resort to kibble?

THANKS to all of you.

p.s kitty's name is Pikey it is short for Pie-Crust.