Socializing Mom and Kittens

[unbridledspirit]

For those who didn't see my original thread, here's a little background info...

In early October, I trapped a Mom and her 2 kittens in my garage.  It took me 4 weeks, but I was finally able to get the kittens in the house using a large carrier (on Oct 31) and then Mom a couple days later using a live trap (Nov 2).  All three are now in a spare bedroom.  The kittens have full use of the bedroom, but Mom was transferred from the trap to a large crate/cage after she was spayed.  So Mom has been in the crate/cage since Nov 4th.

I've owned cats before but this is the first time I've dealt with socializing a feral/semi-feral mom and her kittens.  So I have lots of questions.  I could use encouragement as well.  Some days are very frustrating.  I'd like to hear from others who have successfully socialized an adult cat (about 4 yrs old) and her kittens (about 6 mths old).

The kittens are progressing really well - they don't hide under the bed when I enter the room, I can engage them in play, they will lick food off my finger and they're starting to allow me to pet them.  I suppose spending time with them every day while they were in the garage helped.  Mom, on the other hand, is another story.  When they were in the garage, she always hid from me and wouldn't come out to eat until I was gone.  It wasn't until the final week or so before I got them in the house that she would make herself visible.  But only once did she come down from her hiding spot and join the kittens for food.  At that was at a distance of about 3-4 feet.

I'm sure I'll have plenty more, but here are a few questions to start...

1. What is an appropriate amount of time to spend with them each day?  Typically, I spend an hour in the morning feeding and cleaning.  In the evening, I spend 2 hrs to feed, clean, play and work on touching/petting.  I work from home fulltime, so I'm able to check on them throughout the day, but those are only 15 min visits.  They're usually sleeping during those times anyway.
2. How long should I keep Mom in the crate?  I feel bad keeping her cooped up while her babies have room to move around and play, but I'm not quite ready for that yet.  I'd prefer to wait until she stops hissing/growling and striking out at me.  She can be very fierce/threatening and has even lunged at me in an attempt to scare me away.  I swear, being in the crate is the only thing stopping her from getting a piece of me.  I have visions of this cat launching herself at me and/or running out from under the bed and attacking me.  I doubt this would happen, but how do I know for sure?  I know the kittens would love to cuddle up with mom (I often find them laying next to cage, trying to get close to her).  I don't want to let her out too soon, though - I'm making such good progress with the kittens, she may influence them into acting negatively towards me.  Will keeping her in the crate awhile longer cause her to become more aggressive?
3. Why is Mom the most irritated/aggressive in the morning as compared to other times during the day?  When I'm in the room for 2 hrs in the evening, she'll growl and hiss but it's not quite as threatening.  She'll even come completely out of her cubby to eat, stretch out and observe me interacting with the kittens, sometimes with me sitting right next to her.  She seems very relaxed and tolerates my presence.  But in the morning, she's very threatening and makes every attempt to scare me away.
4. When Mom strikes out at me, what should my reaction be?  Should I completely stop what I'm doing, or wait a couple of minutes and resume doing whatever I was doing at that moment.  If I wait long enough, she eventually calms down and I can finish.  I don't want to give her the idea that she has the upper hand or that I'm afraid of her, but when she strikes out at me or my hand, it's only natural to flinch.
5. Eye contact - I've read not to make direct eye contact as that is a sign of aggression to a feral.  However, there are times when I glance in her direction and catch her staring directly at me.  She'll hold that stare for about 10 mins.  Why is that?  Sometimes she'll blink but other times she'll just stare with wide open eyes.

Thanks for any help / advice / encouragement you can offer

 

[kittychick]

Socializing an adult cat is very difficult, to say the least. But that's not to say it can't be done. The shelter I work with has successfully - as have I - socialized adults, but it's slow-going. There is definitely no such thing as "too much time" - - I do everything with my more feral fosters particularly. I have them in a spare bedroom, so I even eat, work (I freelance design from home) and sleep down with them. And I talk with them non stop. I also leave a tv on 24/7 - - something "non-threatening" (nothing too loud etc)----like HGTV to get them used to human voices. I don't know why she's more aggressive in the morning - perhaps because she's "tested the waters" during the night when you'r not around and up - and the is "frustrated to find that THING (you) is back in the morning." I personally would treat all basically the same -- - sit or lie down - low as possible, talk as mch as possiblle in low, feminine soft tones. Leave hard food and water available at all times, but you need to be the "bringer of SUPER treats" - like soft food, meat, and chicken baby food. Every time you enter their room - do it the same way so that they expect you (giver of super treats!)…..knock softly, start sing-song talking even before you enter. Then get low/lie down, talking gently all the time. Make no big effort to touch. Then offer the Gerber Stage 2 Chicken (KITTY CRACK!) to Momma on a spoon - - at arm's length. Keep softly talking. It may take multiple times before she'll deign you by touching it. If she keeps ignoring it, wipe just a bit on her nose or chin or paw. Keep talking. Then do the same with the kittens.Rotate between the three, 

I've found consistency, patience and Gerbers Stage 2 Chicken are your best friends in this endeavor. At Momma's age, she may never be a lap cat, but stranger things have certainly happened! In fact, I'm sure many on this forum can tell you just such tales!!!

Good luck, don't give up, and utilize this board for advice, a shoulder, frustration, you name it. We're all here!

 

[ondine]

What is an appropriate amount of time to spend with them each day?  Typically, I spend an hour in the morning feeding and cleaning.  In the evening, I spend 2 hrs to feed, clean, play and work on touching/petting.  I work from home fulltime, so I'm able to check on them throughout the day, but those are only 15 min visits.  They're usually sleeping during those times anyway. 

Any time you spend in there is good.  You can usually judge by how wound up they get.  sitting in there working quietly (or reading out loud) is a good way to get them used to your voice and your presence.

How long should I keep Mom in the crate?  I feel bad keeping her cooped up while her babies have room to move around and play, but I'm not quite ready for that yet.  I'd prefer to wait until she stops hissing/growling and striking out at me.  She can be very fierce/threatening and has even lunged at me in an attempt to scare me away.  I swear, being in the crate is the only thing stopping her from getting a piece of me.  I have visions of this cat launching herself at me and/or running out from under the bed and attacking me.  I doubt this would happen, but how do I know for sure?  I know the kittens would love to cuddle up with mom (I often find them laying next to cage, trying to get close to her).  I don't want to let her out too soon, though - I'm making such good progress with the kittens, she may influence them into acting negatively towards me.  Will keeping her in the crate awhile longer cause her to become more aggressive?

I'm torn on this - she may not respond to your attempts to socialize her, in the crate or not.  I would give it another week or so, then decide if she might be happier as your yard kitty.

Why is Mom the most irritated/aggressive in the morning as compared to other times during the day?  When I'm in the room for 2 hrs in the evening, she'll growl and hiss but it's not quite as threatening.  She'll even come completely out of her cubby to eat, stretch out and observe me interacting with the kittens, sometimes with me sitting right next to her.  She seems very relaxed and tolerates my presence.  But in the morning, she's very threatening and makes every attempt to scare me away.

Not sure why this is.  She may be rested up and just raring to go in the mornings. 

When Mom strikes out at me, what should my reaction be?  Should I completely stop what I'm doing, or wait a couple of minutes and resume doing whatever I was doing at that moment.  If I wait long enough, she eventually calms down and I can finish.  I don't want to give her the idea that she has the upper hand or that I'm afraid of her, but when she strikes out at me or my hand, it's only natural to flinch.

I would calmly stop what I was doing for a bit, as you said - to let her calm down.  Truth be told, with her claws, she does sort of have the upper hand. 

But you keeping a cool head will help her understand her behavior is unacceptable.

Eye contact - I've read not to make direct eye contact as that is a sign of aggression to a feral.  However, there are times when I glance in her direction and catch her staring directly at me.  She'll hold that stare for about 10 mins.  Why is that?  Sometimes she'll blink but other times she'll just stare with wide open eyes.

She may be challenging you.  She seems to want to be top cat, apparently, and this is her way of telling you that.    Don't meet her gaze - look at her ear or forehead.  Blink occasionally and definitely blink back when she blinks.  She's telling you she's hoping things can chill out.

Thank you so much for accepting this challenge.  You are doing a wonderful thing!

 

[unbridledspirit]

Thank you for the replies

Kittychick - I have started eating my lunch in the room and I do have a radio on (not 24/7, but for the majority of the day/night).  Due to my setup, I can't work in the room, but I can start going in there more often.  I've been sticking to a routine so they know what/when to expect.  I talk with them constantly and sit/lie on the floor to be at their level.  I'm treating all three the same as much as possible.  I'm not pushing them to accept being touched/petted.  One kitten is much more comfortable with petting while her sister is just beginning to be OK with it.  I have found the baby food to be the most irresistible to them.  I have tried giving Momma some on a spoon but tuna is more enticing to her.  I can get close enough (shorter than arm's length) to offer her some tuna from my hand.  She'll stare at it and I can tell she wants it, but she won't take it until I place it inside the cage and move my hand away.  I'll keep trying, though.

Ondine - yes, she definitely gives me the impression that she wants to be the top cat!  Her gazes can be quite unsettling.  I'll give it another week or so and then decide.  But, gosh, the cold weather is here and I'd feel terrible letting her back outside.  She'd be alone outside while her babies are inside, nice and warm.  I bought a bottle of "Feral Cat Rehab", hoping this will help ease the stress and transition to being inside.  (http://www.abesmarket.com/natural-products/natural-pet-products/natural-cat-care/natural-cat-remedies/spirit-essences-feral-cat-rehab-2oz.html).  The instructions say to give it about 2 weeks to show any improvements.

 She's telling you she's hoping things can chill out.

This is Momma ("Abbie") - she looks so peaceful, doesn't she?  I just wish she was like this all the time.

DSCN2420[1].JPG

• unbridledspirit
• Nov 25, 2014

This is Maggie, playing between my knees

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• unbridledspirit
• Nov 25, 2014

And here's Pippa - she's the more timid/shy one.

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• unbridledspirit
• Nov 25, 2014

One more...

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• unbridledspirit
• Nov 25, 2014

I know it will take a lot of time and patience, but I'm not one to give up very easily. 

 

[ondine]

We have a cat who we rescued at six weeks or so. She never learned to be a cat and she can stare at us, unblinking, for a long time. I know she isn't threatening me but it is still unnerving.

Fingers crossed Abbie comes around.

 

[unbridledspirit]

Sure hope she comes around soon! We currently live in a rental and want to move within the next 6 months. I certainly couldn't leave her behind!

 

[kittychick]

Any improvement for Abbie? Kittens continuing to improve socialization? Hope so...it can be such a slow, frustrating process. Sounds like you've probably had -given her acceptance if tuna -more improvement than you realize! A friend of ours took in the feral litter mate to the feral we took in this summer. Ours socialized immediately and became the most loving lap cat I've ever had (I know I'm SUPER lucky!!) but theirs they've worked with non-stop since August and she still only accepts short pets while eating only---and only from the husband. The wife still can't get near. But ---they know they saved her from a life on our (very busy & dangerous) streets---and she's happy & well-fed....just not "happy with humans."

Let us know how it's going!

 

[kittychick]

And meant to say earlier - they all couldn't be cuter! And ironically - we had a feral kitten we socialized last summer that we named "Pip" ----and she looked a lot like your Pippa!! I attached a pic for fun. His mom wasn't able to be socialized, but she still comes to eat and utilize our shelters periodically. Pip never did become overly social, but he now has a VERY wonderful understanding home, amazingly with one of his litter mates!

IMG_1074_2.jpg

• kittychick
• Dec 2, 2014

 

[unbridledspirit]

Kittychick - not too much improvement with Abbie but I am making progress with Maggie and Pippa.  As long as I have baby food on my finger, I can pet them for longer periods each time.  I'm taking my time with them.  If I see them beginning to feel uncomfortable, I back off and we'll just play.  I'm spending more time during the afternoons, taking my lunch in the room and just talking to them.  I started to use that time period to work on petting, too.  Gerber turkey baby food is the best!

Abbie is still in the crate, although I did raise her up off the floor and closer to the window.  She seems to like that a little better.  She is still a very angry cat in the mornings, though.

I saved some turkey from Thanksgiving to use as a special bribe - Maggie and Pippa went bonkers for it, and so did Abbie, but she still refuses to take it from my hand.  She won't eat it until I set it down inside her crate.  I'll keep trying - sooner or later she'll take it from my hand.

Pip does look a lot like Pippa!  And so cute!

I'll give them as much time as they need and I won't give up on them.  I really don't mind if they never become lap-cats or big snuggle-bugs - just knowing they're no longer outside in the cold puts a smile on my face

 

[unbridledspirit]

A little break-through last night....   I offered Abbie a strip of turkey.  Instead of placing it just inside her crate and taking my hand away, I held it with the tip of my fingers and tried to be as still as possible.  She stared at it for a couple of minutes then very slowly approached, sniffed it, then cautiously took it from me!  Yay!  I know that's a BIG step.  I tried again, but once was enough for her.

Kittychick, you mentioned Pip's mom couldn't be socialized.  At what point did you realize this and decide to just let her remain outside?  Did you bring her inside and attempt to socialize her, realize it was going nowhere and decided to let her go back outside?  I'm hoping Abbie will come around eventually, but there are days when I look at her and she seems to be so unhappy that I wonder if I'm doing the right thing by keeping her inside.  I wish she could talk and tell me her story - did she have a family at one time?  how long has she been outside?  I would like to let her out of the crate so she can have full use of the bedroom and be with Maggie and Pippa, but like I said earlier, I envision her launching an attack on me when I enter the room and having her fears of me influence Maggie and Pippa.

 

[kittychick]

That's a HUGE HUGE HUGE step!!!! I can tell you that our neighbors who took in Flick's sister (Racquel) still can't get her to take food from them like that. Even the husband. Flick and Racquel were taken in at a year and a few months after a few months of us - and the neighbors that ended up with Racquel - tossing meat to them in our driveway, at closer and closer range. Flick eventually - after a few months - actually crawled onto my lap and took food off of my fingers. Stunned us all. But Racuqel never got closer than a few feet, and the neighbors kept her in a detached screened porch until a few weeks ago, working with her for daily - although only for about 1/2 hour twice a day (part of the issue I'm sure - but I'm not sure even with more socialization she'd be much better - not sure). They retrapped her and brought her into the attached glassed-in (and heated) portion of their house a few weeks ago so that she can sniff their existing 3 cats through a screen door between the house. I doubt seriously she'll ever be much for touching - let alone a lap kitty  But our neighborhood streets are pretty busy - and so they're happy she's in and "off the streets." 

I will say I think we all who have taken ferals in have our moments when we wonder if they long for the outside. We watch Flick sit at our french doors and watch the outdoors with rapt attention and every now and then we have pangs about letting her outside (not that we will - unless we try a leash - which I've generally found to be a joke with kitties). She actually had a huge escape opportunity - one day I opened the french doors for air - not realizing that my husband had opened the screen for them and left it open. I realized after about FIVE minutes that she'd been sitting at the opening of the completely wide open doors for about 5 minutes and did the totally wrong thing - panicked and rushed towards the door. Looking back I'm stunned she didn't bolt the other way just because I rushed her - but she didn't. She just turned and casually ambled back toward the rest of the house! Now she did actually slip out the other day - and did that cat/dog thing of keeping about 2 feet in front of me as I tried to grab her. She got a house away - headed towards a busy street - and I got her. But I will say that put our "maybe we should let her walk around outside a bit" to rest for quite some time

As far as Maddie - the mom we released - and her three kittens (Pip, Izze and Buffer). We brought the kittens in later soon as they were definitely weaned - which wa a little late - like 9 weeks (Maddie gave birth under our neighbor's deck, so we watched it all unfold). Maddie panicked so much in the trap before/after the spaying that actually released her 2 days after the spaying. Which turned out to be horribly gut-wrenching. We released her back under the neighbor's deck (we do have heated shelters in our yard and a feeding station, but figured it would comfort her to go there). She immediately - and for about 24 hours straight - howled and cried this horribly-gut-wrenching cry for her babies. My husband and I BOTH sobbed all night, hating that we'd released her and that she was in such emotional pain. I even got ahold of 2 people at Alley Cat Allies and both told me to release all of the babies to ease her pain and stop the crying. In retrospect, I'm glad we didn't since all three kittens now have fantastic homes (Buffer went to one home, Pip and Izzie went to another together). And obviously she's still making it since we see her about every week or two (although we didn't see her for 6 months after releasing her - yet another reason we worried). We live in the suburbs, and our immediate street isn't horribly busy, but 2 houses over is a very busy street (we often see a few other ferals cross it - and one was hit last year -sadly by our neighbor who has Racquel, who also helps with the TNRing - she was devastated). And we're only 4 blocks from a very busy highway. So I never stop worrying!

A lot of days I do wish we'd kept Maddie in - the other part of the reason we didn't is that at that point we already had 5 cats of ages 4-19 (all former fosters I couldn't return for various reasons). Introducing another cat -  particularly one that could have been difficult to socialize - with our two older (18 & 19) cats, who both have health issues - seemed like a bad idea. But it was a tough decision and I applaud you for taking the tougher route. Buffer, Pip and Izze alone were a commitment for me to socialize since I knew we couldn't keep them - so I literally (as I hinted at earlier) spent almost all of my time for months down in our "foster room" (which is actually not roughing it- it's a huge finished basement bedroom with cable and a bathroom, so I can't complain really). I even worked down there (to the chagrin of my business partner and husband). But it still - even with that much involvement - took months to socialize Pip and Izze. Buffer socialized immediately and we adopted him out after about 3 or 4 weeks. Pip and Izze - I thought they'd never even allow anyone else near them to look at them - let alone close enough to want to adopt them. But we really lucked out and made a love match. Even though a stranger adopted them, she's become a friend and we see them periodically, which is wonderful. 

I'm guessing you don't have room to try to socialize Abbie in a different room, separate from her babies? Sometimes if you can separate them, they socialize more quickly. But I know that's tough from a room perspective - and it's tough from a time perspective as far as socializing. 

I know it feels SOOOO slow - but all - particularly the kittens - seem like they're making amazing progress. If you can get a 6 month old kitten who's been feral since birth on your LAP after only a few weeks, it honestly is pretty astounding!!!! 

 

[unbridledspirit]

Kittychick, thank you so much for your encouraging words!  Yes, it was a HUGE step for her.  I try offering her bits of turkey each time I go in the room, but so far, just Maggie and Pippa are willing to take it from me every time. Abbie really baffles me - some times she's not bothered by my presence, seems relaxed and acts as though she wants to make peace; other times she acts like a ferocious lion wanting to chew my head off! The only thing stopping her is being in the crate. Hence one of the reasons why I'm reluctant to let her out.

Unfortunately, I don't have another room I can use to separate Abbie.  The house we're in isn't very functional (for my purposes), is on the smaller side and since it's a rental, I can't do much to improve it.  I know I need to spend as much time as possible with them.  If the room could accommodate what I need to get my work done, I'd be in there all day.  For now, all I can do is go in there throughout the day every chance I get and spend a couple hours in the evening.  Like I said before, I don't mind if they don't become big love bugs (although that would be awfully nice and I would enjoy hearing them purr in my lap), but I would like to at least touch and pet them and be able to pick them up without them being afraid of it. How else will I be able to get them to the vet for vaccinations and check ups? Also their nails need trimming big time!

You did a wonderful thing for Buffer, Pip and Izze (as well as the others), and I'm sure in some way Maddie knows you did what was best for them and she's grateful.  I applaud you, too, for rescuing and fostering ferals.  Not many people are willing to do what we're doing.  And I was never a cat person - I grew up with dogs only!

It is a very slow and frustrating process.  And some days, I feel as though I'm going backwards with them.  Like this afternoon, Maggie and Pippa were sleeping on the hopechest next to Abbie.  I always "announce myself" before entering the room.  They jumped down and ran under the bed, which they haven't done in over a week.  After awhile, they do come back out, so maybe I just startled then initially??
I'll keep the updates coming and look forward to all the advice I can get.

 

[kittychick]

It seems a lot of ferals never lose their hyper-awareness. Even Flick (who's so relaxed in general now that it makes me want to cry if I think too hard about how, when outside, she literally slept with one eye partially open) after over 6 months every now & then decides to eat in tiny bites, running into another room after every bite like someone's going to attack her. I will say we take the bed in our "foster room" off its frame when we have fosters so they can't go under it. Reducing places to hide is super helpful. We block off everything (such as furniture they would be able to get under) while socializing. With most I make it so that they can only "hide" in their crate - & sometimes I actually take that away & only drape a blanket over a section of the dog crate I put in their room. So you might try that!

I certainly get being concerned when she launches - the shelter I volunteer in has had a few cats like that. The last one we had (well, she's still there) was very scary - but after a year of scaring us all any time we had to feed her etc - one day someone got brave & decided to let her roam (about 2/3 of our cats free roam the shelter during the day). And she immediately became a changed cat!!!!! You can walk up to her now and pet her! Not that I'm guaranteeing that with Abbie -but I'd be curious if anyone else had that experience? It does mean if it doesn't work you'd need to trap her again to do anything, but it's a thought?

We've often had to at least "trap" our guys we're socializing in the cat carrier I keep as their "home base" to go to the vet. We lure them in generally with a laser pointer! But we do it very sparingly as often it sets the socializing back a bit afterwards. 99% of them have forgiven me again eventually

Keep us posted!

(And so you can see it can work out wonderfully - I attached two pics of Flick- one that I love of her, coming running when we call her name with a "what? You call me?" look...the other of her adorably watching something on our iPad with our very active nephew that she'd just met the day before -so much for ferals never adjusting to strangers!)

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• kittychick
• Dec 3, 2014

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• kittychick
• Dec 3, 2014

 

[ondine]

Slow is the word. We have a former feral, who was brought in at six months. I knew nothing about ferals and did everything wrong. Yet, eight years later, she has discovered she likes to be brushed. She literally screams at us until someone gets the brush. I never thought she'd be the one to initiate contact!

You are making progress.

 

[unbridledspirit]

Having the bed as a place to hide under certainly doesn't help.  If I could get the bed off the frame easily without scaring them, I would do it.  There isn't much room to maneuver things around but maybe I can figure something out. 

My husband thinks I should just let her out and see what happens, but I'm like "Are you kidding me?!?!"  I agree there's no way to predict how she'll react or what affect it will have on Maggie and Pippa, and that's what scares me.  She'll either be more receptive and calmer, or she'll want to protect her territory and her fear of me will influence Maggie and Pippa causing them to take a few steps backwards.  Although, when all three were in the garage before I trapped them, Maggie and Pippa did approach me, take food from my hand and play, while Abbie stood watch from the rafters and kept her distance.  The bedroom is definitely a lot smaller than the garage, but maybe they'll act the same way?  Would sure like to hear from others who have been in the same situation.  Definitely don't like the idea of needing to trap her again if it didn't work out.

Love the pics of Flick, especially sitting with your nephew.  It's encouraging to see how beautifully it can work out.

Ondine - thanks for the encouragement as well!  Knowing others have successfully socialized cats/kittens the same age as Maggie and Pippa helps me believe it can be done with time, love and patience
 

 

[kittychick]

Definitely slow….it really hasn't been long for your guys. I know it feels like forever - but it really hasn't. As Ondine noted - hers changed for the friendlier after 8 years! I'd love to hear what others think too about letting Abbie out. They've all been in for a month, right? My gut says let her out into the bedroom -- but not until all hiding places are sealed (like under bed). And - - I've obviously never seen her and your exact situation---they're all so different. And if she's terrifying you at times, perhaps that's not the best. You are already making progress with her! 

Just know that whatever you do - even if it involves letting her back out - you've improved her life immensely already by making it so that she doesn't become a kitten factory. You might even check out this thread - I just discovered it and what a cool "release them and sometimes they come back" story (fair warning - not all of them do come back, but it's still a very cool story)…tried to paste a link to it but having trouble - - but it's in this section. Called "I finally let them go…"

Keep us posted!

 

[unbridledspirit]

I hope it doesn't take 8 yrs, but I'm prepared to wait it out   It has been one month exactly and I am happy with how far they've come up until now.  I know there will be setbacks so I'm taking one step at a time and allowing them to decide what's next.

Whether or not to let her out of the crate is a big decision...  she does terrify me at times - I'm the one that would look for a hiding spot should she choose to launch an attack!  And I'm making such good progress with Maggie and Pippa, as well as with Abbie being in the crate.  She did take another piece of turkey from my fingertips this afternoon.  When I offered her a second piece, instead of taking it with her mouth she reached out with her paw and knocked it off my fingers!  She did it again in the evening with tuna - took the first piece from my fingertips then knocked off the second one

I did see the thread "I finally let them go..." but I haven't read through it yet.  I really hope it doesn't come to that - letting her back outside - but if she's just not going to be a happy indoor cat, then I may not have a choice.  I'll probably cry my eyes out if that's what I end up doing - I'll worry myself sick thinking about her day and night - wondering does she have food, is she safe, is she hurt, etc...

Maggie and Pippa were great tonight - ate food out of my hand while I petted with the other hand and they didn't flinch.  They even stepped (cautiously) onto my lap looking for more goodies

 

[kittychick]

If you've got "lap stepping" already -- I think you're making amazing progress.

And I'm curious - when you say Abbie's second time with the turkey both times she's knocked off--was it aggressive or that curious "tap tap tap...see what it takes to knock it to the ground" thing kitties do?

Hopefully you'll continue to make progress & letting her go won't be necessary!

 

[unbridledspirit]

If you've got "lap stepping" already -- I think you're making amazing progress.

And I'm curious - when you say Abbie's second time with the turkey both times she's knocked off--was it aggressive or that curious "tap tap tap...see what it takes to knock it to the ground" thing kitties do?

Hopefully you'll continue to make progress & letting her go won't be necessary!

Yes, the lap stepping is great.  And when Maggie decides to play with her mouse and wrap herself around my leg, I just cringe trying not to say "Ouch!" too loud from her nails digging into my skin 

With Abbie, it was the "tap tap tap...."  The first time she did that, though, I moved my hand a tiny bit too quickly after she took it, causing her to hiss so now I know to move my hand as slow as possible.

 

[kittychick]

Then Abbie's not swiping in anger - at least with the turkey swiping That's more kitty curiosity/playful behavior than any kind of anger--with a little prey thrown in since she'd likely play with a mouse before she ate it-yum