Small Cell Lymphoma vs Inflammatory Bowel Disease: The great debate

[stephenq]

 
Good idea @StephenQ  !  I had the same one picked out at Walmart so will get it tomorrow. Of course as an anxious mama we want to know every hour, but that does us no good.  Ideally, how often should a kitty like this be weighed?  I really feel like he looks thinner in recent days but I could be over analyzing and also he is shaved from the ultrasound.  I do feel his spine though.

I'd either weigh once a week or twice a week.  If the pred is working you should see him gaining very soon (within a week) , even if its only a few ounces at the beginning.  Good about the scale, good luck and stay in touch.

 

[kittygirl123]

Great!  Hoping for the best!  He is being a bully and more active on the pred so I think he could lose weight as he running around like a wild animal, like ritalin.  

 

[kittygirl123]

Following up here - I know it has not been a full week but my boy is down 5 oz since vet visit.  On the 5 mg pred for a week now.  I am a bit confused as he is no longer constipated and "going" daily now and the largest (too much info?) amount I even thought possible. He is very active and appetite still insatiable but I wonder if the weight loss may be confusing because he is now on this high fiber diet? 

I see no changes in his energy otherwise but he feels very thin at 11.4.  One year ago he was at 12.1, now we feel his spine and hips.

TIA for your thoughts.

 

[emilyann]

Sorry I haven't been keeping up on the thread lately. Things have been great (knock on wood) since all of this began in October. I chose not to get the biopsy to determine whether it is small cell lymphoma or inflammatory bowel disease not because of the cost, but because the diet change and medication seem to be keeping everything at bay so it didn't seem like there was a need for it. Buddy got up to 9.5 Lbs (he was just over 6 at his lowest). We had a little scare last month where he was not keeping his food down and the diarrhea began again. We increased his Prednisolone to daily (we were able to ween him down to every 3 days before this) and that seemed to do the trick. I took him in to the vet just in case and they did not seem too concerned. He did lose a little weight and is currently at about 8.9 lbs, which is still good. The only thing is when they were feeling his stomach at the office the vet felt what she thinks is a mass. She said it could definitely be in entanglement of intestines, but it could also be something else and if it is then that will likely determine whether or not he has cancer. He has an appointment on Friday for a dental cleaning/microchip because of an infected tooth and they said while he is sleeping they will feel around more thoroughly and Will take x-rays to find out for sure.

His B12 injections are now once per month and the Prednisolone will likely be a forever thing. I had a lot of success after switching him off of his Royal Cannin PR. He now gets a rotation of natures instinct variety frozen raw rabbit and the chicken. He also eat natures variety instinct limited ingredient turkey wet food, but I remove all of the whole peas that are in there because cats can't really digest them.

It has been shocking finding out the lack of knowledge the veterinary community has about proper diets for cats. If he would have been put on a more natural diet when this initially started years ago instead of being put on a Bullshi* prescription food diet then he may not be in the same situation today. Studies that show there is likely a link between untreated (or improperly treated) IBS developing into small cell lymphoma. granted, I should have done the research myself, but at the time I was naieve and put too much faith in the vet I had at the time.

There are a few other posts I would like to respond to in here, but I will have to do that until after work.

 

[kittygirl123]

Thanks for the response @EmilyAnn  Good to know he gained weight and did well on another diet.  I have not heard of that brand is it prescription?  It is 2.5 weeks here and no weight gain yet, at 5 mg pred but eating and "going" just fine. On occasion however I am seeking him smack his mouth a bit, wondering if the med side effect?  It is not the typical tongue out/nausea appearance.  
He is still eating like a piggy so I should try another food just hate to take steps back with the constipation now resolved with the RC fiber response.  He loves it as well, and very finicky.    Sending positive thoughts and wishes that Friday goes well for Buddy!

 

[emilyann]

I forgot to add that I also mix in Purina pro-biopics with the wet food (purchased on Amazon). I also wanted to note that while I have not had success with prescription diets, there are a lot of cats who have. If the food is doing what you need it to do then it doesn't matter what the ingredients are if they are now overall now healthy. My parents cat is on I think the prescription D Hills diet (venison) and that helped the problems he was having. I personally am just frustrated with how the vets I have seen don't know anything other than prescription diet food. I think they should all get a more comprehensive training in this area.

 

[emilyann]

@kittygirl123 Natures Instinct Variety is not prescription, the only store around me that carries the frozen raw natures instinct Variety is Pet Supplies Plus (not all of them do, but they will special order if they don't). I get the NIV limited ingredient wet turkey At Petsmart because the Petco near me does not carry it in store. I will respond more later when I have a chance to read through your initial posts.

 

[emilyann]

@kittygirl123  I read through your posts. You mentioned that he hasn't had any weight gain yet, has he at least stopped losing weight now that he's on the Pred? Buddy is also on the 5mg of Prednisolone and gets it every 3 days. We have it in the liquid form right now, but once we run out of the bottle I'm thinking about requesting the pill version as he will take any medication if it's buried in a small piece of laughing cow cheese haha.

I believe it was @StephenQthat recommended getting a scale. I also highly recommend it.  <--This is the one I purchased, although it looks like it is currently unavailable at this site. I weighed him at the same time on a daily basis for several weeks when his health was bad, he was down to just over 6 lbs so I had to closely monitor him. The scale helped me to track his progression with the meds/diet so I knew what was working and what wasn't. In his particular situation with hyperthyroid and IBD/possible SCL losing weight is a big red flag and I know I need to make an appointment with my vet. 

 

[kittygirl123]

Thanks @EmilyAnn  the scale was a NO GO he was feral and can barely be held, the only way we can weigh him is on digital/human scale holding him then weighing myself. We tried for days it is never going to happen. At least he is still super strong!  Scale is going back.
He takes the pills in liver chews from compounding pharmacy. Does not appear to be losing weight, although he does cry from the litter pan right before he "goes", unsure if he just developed this habit or if he is in pain.  Could just be feeling the urge or something, as he is no longer constipated on the RC.

I just worry I am missing the cancer and he could be getting worse without the Leukeran. Feel free to chime in @StephenQ  if you have a sec!  
Appreciate your help!  We follow up with the vet in 2 weeks. How did the vet visit go Friday?  Hope ok!

 

[stephenq]

 
Thanks @EmilyAnn  the scale was a NO GO he was feral and can barely be held, the only way we can weigh him is on digital/human scale holding him then weighing myself. We tried for days it is never going to happen. At least he is still super strong!  Scale is going back.
He takes the pills in liver chews from compounding pharmacy. Does not appear to be losing weight, although he does cry from the litter pan right before he "goes", unsure if he just developed this habit or if he is in pain.  Could just be feeling the urge or something, as he is no longer constipated on the RC.

I just worry I am missing the cancer and he could be getting worse without the Leukeran. Feel free to chime in @StephenQ  if you have a sec!  
Appreciate your help!  We follow up with the vet in 2 weeks. How did the vet visit go Friday?  Hope ok!

Hi,

I don't think I have anything productive to add at this time, sorry.  I'm also dealing with a family emergency and so i am distracted and not on here much for now and a little while into the future.

 

[kittygirl123]

Sorry to hear that @StephenQ  and best wishes.
@EmilyAnn   it is hard to know if he has lost weight. The week of the Ultrasound they shaved his belly and sides. One opinion was that the fur loss would not even register on the scale. However, he has been down a few ounces since that weekend and fluctuation.  On the 5mg there is no obvious gain weighing same time daily.  If anything it is all over the place.  My concern is I could be waiting too long to start the Leukeran, but I suppose I will give the meds another week or two and take him back in for a 1 month follow up.  I did not find the food you suggested locally will try online.
Thank you!

 

[kittygirl123]

Hello, 

Wanted to share that my kitty has been consistent with his weight at 11.8, since diagnosis (down still from 12.8 and feeling bony in the spine), so the Pred is not promoting weight gain at all but appears to be holding steady.  At this point I have the option to add chemo or not.  He is active, playful and eating great, but as @StephenQ  had previously shared it is likely because he is not absorbing nutrients etc.  There are no other obvious symptoms.  However he does a bit of mouth smacking time to time, perhaps a result of the meds?  Not sure. I welcome any thoughts.  Thank you!

 

[stephenq]

Hi!
Mouth smacking is a sign of nausea. She might do well with either Pepcid or a very good anti nausea med called Cerenia, a miracle drug. Talk to your vet.

 

[kittygirl123]

Thanks @StephenQ   i have experienced the tongue in and out with nausea but not this, interesting. I wonder if the pred is causing it as he did not do it previously.  He started 2 days after the meds.  It is random and not often but he still wants to play and eat like a piggy even when he does it. I was thinking dry mouth.  Left message for vet he has not gained, or lost, still eating and playful.  Waiting on word back as what to do next. 

 

[myrnafaye]

@StephenQ ,could you pls elaborate on the use and functions of Cerenia?  I know it is a nausea med...under what circumstances is it best used, and what do you think of a maintenance dose for IBD kitties?

 

[stephenq]

 
@StephenQ ,could you pls elaborate on the use and functions of Cerenia?  I know it is a nausea med...under what circumstances is it best used, and what do you think of a maintenance dose for IBD kitties?

Hi

It was developed as a motion sickness med for dogs but now it has much wider use.  It's a neural blocker for nausea and its for preventing or stopping vomiting and nausea related symptoms in cats or dogs.  Because it is so effective, it masks the symptoms of nausea and so generally it should be used when a) the cause of the nausea is not known, and b) preventing the symptoms by treating the nausea isn't possible, or isn't fully possible any other way.  In other words, you have a cat who starts vomiting, you do NOT give cerenia initially as a rule because you don't know why the cat is vomiting. But IBD and pancreatitis cats are a different story. Also kidney disease cats are good candidates.

Typically, its used to treat long term conditions like IBD and pancreatitis (both of which my cat had) but it could also be used to treat nausea from other causes, perhaps even from chemo therapy. 

I don't remember my cat's dose, but it was a low dose given orally every day. Perhaps 1/2 tablet of the lowest dose.  And on occasion in a crisis it was given with sub q fluids as an injection.  Technically, it is labeled for 4-5 days on treatment and then 1 day off to give the brain a "rest" and in truth too much cerenia can cause side effects but we and my vet have discovered that with more than one cat (ours and another) that at a low dose he could tolerate it 7 days/week with no ill effects, and that by doing that we kept the vomiting at bay basically every day.  

It is often used with Pepcid, and its the best oral  anti nausea med out there, but there are also even faster acting (shorter duration) injectable drugs, Zofran being the best I think, that can be given in combination with Cerenia. Zofran works for 6 hours, but it works quickly and can be given sub Q with no stinging.  Cerenia sub Q needs to be given with fluids to avoid stinging.

See: http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?A=2798

I hope this helps.

Stephen

 

[myrnafaye]

Hi, Stephen, yes, thank you very much, that does help.  Obi has taken 1/2 and 1/4 pill.  He is on 1/4 pill now and we are tapering this to every other day and then to every third day.  He still vomits hair occasionally.  I dont think there is much more to be done about this, and it is better than it was, certainly.  A bit more hairballs lately but it is shedding season.  Overall, he is doing quite well.    

 

[stephenq]

 
Hi, Stephen, yes, thank you very much, that does help.  Obi has taken 1/2 and 1/4 pill.  He is on 1/4 pill now and we are tapering this to every other day and then to every third day.  He still vomits hair occasionally.  I dont think there is much more to be done about this, and it is better than it was, certainly.  A bit more hairballs lately but it is shedding season.  Overall, he is doing quite well.    

Brushing is the best defense against hairballs, and sometimes adding Petramalt, but personally I wouldn't be giving cerenia if the only reason was my cat was vomiting hairballs, as he needs to vomit them....i'm presuming youre really giving it because of the IBD....

 

[myrnafaye]

Yes, I am brushing, I have the Furminator!  the commercial preps for hairballs did not help Obi much but he also gets egg yolk lecithin and metameucil.

He was put on Cerenia because he was feeling poorly a while ago, after his ultra sound that revealed a mass on his liver.  And, a couple of weeks ago he vomited up his entire breakfast, something  he almost never has done.  So, now we are backing him down from the Cerenia, and he is on Denemarin for his liver and seems to be doing quite well.      

 

[kittygirl123]

Hi Folks! Wanted to update you all, in particular @StephenQ, @EmilyAnn  and @myrnafaye  on our kitty. Thanks again for all of your concerns! It is now a few months since the ultrasound, and he is up from 11.9 to 12.3 - 12.4 oz on 5 mg prenisilone alone.

The vet felt that was great, as it was his weight in past years, however he looks and feels thinner somehow. He is eating, drinking and "going" comfortably as he is still on the prescription food that helps his constipation. While his appearance bothers me, his weight does not which makes it confusing. I am considering Leukeran, yet have met a local woman whom said her cat with SCL went right downhill after starting, that he was sensitive to it. Hard call. 

Tempted to see if another diet is helpful yet it took many tries to get him "moving" so hate to disrupt that flow, yet he just looks/feels too thin to me. That's the latest!