Siamese Breeding Question

[pat]

Originally Posted by tailsoluv

<snip>BTW, to those of you in the United States and outside of the U.S., in this country the title of Champion really doesn't denote "show quality" particularly. In most associations, one makes a Championship by winning between 4 and 6 winners ribbons. This is accomplished by competing only against cats of your cat's own status (Novice or Open), breed, sex and color. Therefore, if a cat was the only, for instance, red point female Siamese in a show and was the only Novice and there were no other Red Point Siamese female Novices, if the cat had no actual disqualifying faults (such as a kinked tail, malocclusions, incorrect paw pad coloring, etc.), it would automatically win its Winners Ribbon in each ring having defeated no other cats to win the title of Champion. A Grand Championship or higher in our associations is what denotes show quality. After all, the cat fancy is not the dog fancy.

<snip>
Barb Amalfi

Except Barb, just to play devil's advocate and as one who showed in many associations (cff, acfa, cfa, tica) in Tica, you do not earn the title of Champion without both an accumulation of points but one final as well. I've always prefered that method to be honest to CFA's.

 

[tailsoluv]

Originally Posted by Pat & Alix

Except Barb, just to play devil's advocate and as one who showed in many associations (cff, acfa, cfa, tica) in Tica, you do not earn the title of Champion without both an accumulation of points but one final as well. I've always prefered that method to be honest to CFA's.

Thank you. I agree. I had not included TICA, since I had said "most" associations. I have shown and Granded cats in CFA, TICA, ACFA, CFF and, with other people showing my cats, in AACE. I agree that the only association in which a Championship means squat is TICA, but all the same, the cat STILL needs to be show quality to get any further than that.

BTW, we will be showing at the TICA regional in the NE Region this weekend and looking forward to it. Thanks for pointing out the info. about TICA. I merely hadn't mentioned TICA because the owner of the cat keeps screaming "CFA registered" which leads me to believe that this would be her association of choice.

Barb A.

 

[pat]

Have a wonderful show - the NE was the region I showed in when I lived on the East Coast

 

[tailsoluv]

Originally Posted by Pat & Alix

Have a wonderful show - the NE was the region I showed in when I lived on the East Coast

When did you live here and what do you breed? You have me intrigued!

 

[yosemite]

As a Siamese owner and totally ignorant re breeding, I just want to say that I thank goodness for the little breeder that breeds affordable kittens for folks like me to purchase. My dream was a lilac-point Siamese and we found Bijou. Our breeder doesn't breed show cats but her cats have awesome temperaments and personalities. Bijou doesn't have a mean bone in his body, his sister Mika is equally as precious.

Their sister Tia (who recently was flown to California to Carol) is a sweet, affectionate, healthy, loving kitten. (Even Jasper loves her.

)

If it weren't for breeders like this (who do it for love because she sure doesn't charge enough for her kittens to make much money) are a treasure to folks like me who really really want a Siamese (or whatever breed) but could never ever afford a show quality. We want a PET that we can spoil and love and give each other joy and companionship.

 

[scamperfarms]

Wow..I certainly would have to ask why in the world you would discount an animal because it isnt titled. time and time again breeding quality in all walks, Feline, Canine, and equine. out produce them selves. Some of the best studs i have ever seen as far as produceing, were unknown to the show world.

There are any number of reasons why someone may not show their animal, maybe they are breeder quality. maybe they are scared of show, but want to produce quality cats..or maybe they strive to preserve something that isnt whats being shown in the show rings now, so they will not win..

 

[pat]

Originally Posted by tailsoluv

When did you live here and what do you breed? You have me intrigued!

Most of my life - I left in 1995 when I got married & moved West. I have a feeling I'd recognize your face, I certainly recognize your cattery name and your name from shows I've been at

I showed American Curls from New Breed and Color/Misc/Provisional to Championship in the various associations I listed.

 

[tailsoluv]

What makes you think that ANY serious, reputable breeders make any money breeding cats? Or that they don't do it for love of the animals? Did you think that a person would turn around and house whole males and females in their homes with all the associated work and care which comes from maintaining these animals if they didn't love the cats and the breed they choose to work with?

When you pay for a registered cat, you are HOPEFULLY paying for the breeder's knowledge of the genetic health of the lines, something which you have NO shot of doing if the cats are not registered without traceable pedigrees. Just because a cat is registered, it does NOT make it show quality. Registered breeders do sell out their pet-quality kittens, but what makes them a pet vs. breeder or show is merely cosmetic - not as a result of a possible lethal problem.

If you want a cheap, non-registered "Siamese" you can acquire one from www.meezer.org or any other of a number of breed-specific rescue groups who wind up having to save the "cheap" Siamese that people dump because they didn't pay enough for the cats to value them. That way, at least you are saving a cat whose ancestry is unknown rather than paying for the privilege of someone who feels that its just fun to have a bunch of kittens running around their house whose ancestries are also unknown.

Breeding consists of far more than simply allowing two cats who are not neutered to reproduce.

It is also of concern that if a person cannot afford to pay a reasonable pet price for a registered kitten, they probably also can't afford to pay vet bills if something happens to the animal.

I'm not suggesting that this is so in your case, but you do a disservice to ALL breeders by implying that it is perfectly OK for someone to breed unregistered cats or registered cats thrown together by BYBs who purchased registered cats from some other BYB who acquired a registered cat from a reputable breeder because that breeder ultimately did not check out the prospective buyer well enough.

I'm sure that you love your baby with all of your heart, and it is perfectly proper for someone who wishes to preserve Old Style bloodlines in the breed for the sake of preserving the breed - the resulting kittens not being showable - but it is NOT OK to have people breed for no purpose other than to produce kittens for the pet trade. There are way too many kittens/cats looking for loving permanent homes. There is no need for people to breed to produce more of these cats.

The current going rate in the Northeastern US for pet-quality modern Siamese from a reptuable breeder is $500.00. The price of Old Style kittens may cost even more.

Sorry to make you feel I'm being harsh, but I cannot condone breeding just for the sake of producing pets. There is a great deal of difference between someone who breeds an untitled cat and someone who breeds an unregistered cat or a registered cat who is of such poor quality typewise that there is absolutely no possibility of its or any of its offspring ever being shown.

Barb Amalfi

 

[elizwithcat]

Originally Posted by megmar6853

I do not mean to be nasty by my remark but in the CFA the tradional siamese are not considered show quality and you have a picture of a traditional at the bottom of your screen. So by what you said about champions you should not be breeding any of your cats. I personally think that the tradional siamese need to be preserved, so they should have the right to breed. I have studied the breeding ethics of the CFA and there is nothing mentioned about only breeding champions. My cat Sarah is 75% wedge and 25% applehead. She is condidered breeder quality. She would not be accepted in a show, but she did produce show quality kittens with the help of a full modern stud.

Correct me if I am wrong, but as long as she is registered, she would be accepted in a show, she just won't win anything. For instance, I have doll faced persians, so, since they are registered, I could take them to a show, and show them, but they won't win anything as they are not up to the modern standard.

 

[tailsoluv]

Originally Posted by Pat & Alix

Most of my life - I left in 1995 when I got married & moved West. I have a feeling I'd recognize your face, I certainly recognize your cattery name and your name from shows I've been at

I showed American Curls from New Breed and Color/Misc/Provisional to Championship in the various associations I listed.

I bet you're right

I should have thought Curls, don't know where my brain is<VBG>

I've often said that if I was going to do a longhaired breed (although I do know that Curls also come in shorthairs) that I would do American Curls. I have always found them to be exceedingly affectionate and so adorable with their little curled-back ears. I remember one time when the Today Show had a curl breeder on to advertise the MSG show that INCATs was putting on. The stupid interviewer asked the woman about the ears on the cat, and the breedeer said "We get them that way by putting curlers on them overnight before the show." Obviously she was joking, but the idiot interviewer took her seriously - pathetic, isn't it?

Do you get lots of stupid questions like that from spectators?

Barb A.

 

[elizwithcat]

Originally Posted by tailsoluv

What makes you think that ANY serious, reputable breeders make any money breeding cats? Or that they don't do it for love of the animals? Did you think that a person would turn around and house whole males and females in their homes with all the associated work and care which comes from maintaining these animals if they didn't love the cats and the breed they choose to work with?

When you pay for a registered cat, you are HOPEFULLY paying for the breeder's knowledge of the genetic health of the lines, something which you have NO shot of doing if the cats are not registered without traceable pedigrees. Just because a cat is registered, it does NOT make it show quality. Registered breeders do sell out their pet-quality kittens, but what makes them a pet vs. breeder or show is merely cosmetic - not as a result of a possible lethal problem.

If you want a cheap, non-registered "Siamese" you can acquire one from www.meezer.org or any other of a number of breed-specific rescue groups who wind up having to save the "cheap" Siamese that people dump because they didn't pay enough for the cats to value them. That way, at least you are saving a cat whose ancestry is unknown rather than paying for the privilege of someone who feels that its just fun to have a bunch of kittens running around their house whose ancestries are also unknown.

Breeding consists of far more than simply allowing two cats who are not neutered to reproduce.

It is also of concern that if a person cannot afford to pay a reasonable pet price for a registered kitten, they probably also can't afford to pay vet bills if something happens to the animal.

I'm not suggesting that this is so in your case, but you do a disservice to ALL breeders by implying that it is perfectly OK for someone to breed unregistered cats or registered cats thrown together by BYBs who purchased registered cats from some other BYB who acquired a registered cat from a reputable breeder because that breeder ultimately did not check out the prospective buyer well enough.

I'm sure that you love your baby with all of your heart, and it is perfectly proper for someone who wishes to preserve Old Style bloodlines in the breed for the sake of preserving the breed - the resulting kittens not being showable - but it is NOT OK to have people breed for no purpose other than to produce kittens for the pet trade. There are way too many kittens/cats looking for loving permanent homes. There is no need for people to breed to produce more of these cats.

The current going rate in the Northeastern US for pet-quality modern Siamese from a reptuable breeder is $500.00. The price of Old Style kittens may cost even more.

Sorry to make you feel I'm being harsh, but I cannot condone breeding just for the sake of producing pets. There is a great deal of difference between someone who breeds an untitled cat and someone who breeds an unregistered cat or a registered cat who is of such poor quality typewise that there is absolutely no possibility of its or any of its offspring ever being shown.

Barb Amalfi

The problem is, that because modern styles are the standard now, the old styles cats have no chance of winning anything. But many people, like myself, prefer traditional styles. So, even though the goal of the breeder is to preserve those genes, the only thing they can produce is pets. Which is perfectly fine with people like me, who would never show cats anyway, even if they were show style, but instead want a traditional style kitten. As for money, the same argument could be made for people who adopt moggie cats, is that they could not afford a vet bill.

 

[tailsoluv]

Originally Posted by elizwithcat

Correct me if I am wrong, but as long as she is registered, she would be accepted in a show, she just won't win anything. For instance, I have doll faced persians, so, since they are registered, I could take them to a show, and show them, but they won't win anything as they are not up to the modern standard.

You are correct. As long as a cat is registered with an association, it may be shown. However, if it doesn't meet the standard, the judges may withhold wins for lack of merit. I would think that what she meant to say is that it wouldn't be worth her while to show the cat since it wouldn't win and, in fact, may even be disqualified for lack of merit. If you came right down to it, it might be worthwhile to show Old Style Siamese in some associations in an effort to try to get them accepted on the show bench, but it would be totally pointless to try that in CFA.

CFA's rules state that look-a-like cats may not been shown. CFA recently accepted pointed Tonkinese into Championship. This being the case, Old Style Siamese would be precluded from being shown in Championship and showing them in Exhibition would never succeed in getting them accepted again. <*sigh*>

 

[tailsoluv]

Old Style cats can be shown, as I have pointed out, in two associations - ICE and UFO. But Old Style breeders don't give their cats away as pets, and consequently registered breeders still charge the same kinds of prices.

As for moggies, you are right. The same argument can be made, but breeders, unless they are deliberately breeding moggies, have no control over who adopts them.

 

[pat]

Originally Posted by tailsoluv

I bet you're right

I should have thought Curls, don't know where my brain is<VBG>

I've often said that if I was going to do a longhaired breed (although I do know that Curls also come in shorthairs) that I would do American Curls. I have always found them to be exceedingly affectionate and so adorable with their little curled-back ears. I remember one time when the Today Show had a curl breeder on to advertise the MSG show that INCATs was putting on. The stupid interviewer asked the woman about the ears on the cat, and the breedeer said "We get them that way by putting curlers on them overnight before the show." Obviously she was joking, but the idiot interviewer took her seriously - pathetic, isn't it?

Do you get lots of stupid questions like that from spectators?

Barb A.

I remember that comment. We all had to deal with the aftermath from that - though I love an original cartoon making fun of that notion that Caroline Scott drew for a breed publication and sent to me as a gift. It's adorable

Yes, I used to get some interesting comments from spectators. The most upset was an elderly woman at Madison Square Garden - back when Incats held their shows there and the breed was still quite new. She was so angry she was spitting, and asked me how could I have done this to my cats. I told her to take it up with God since he designed them, and nothing is done to make their ears curl that way!

 

[elizwithcat]

Originally Posted by tailsoluv

Old Style cats can be shown, as I have pointed out, in two associations - ICE and UFO. But Old Style breeders don't give their cats away as pets, and consequently registered breeders still charge the same kinds of prices.

As for moggies, you are right. The same argument can be made, but breeders, unless they are deliberately breeding moggies, have no control over who adopts them.

Personally, I didn't get my doll faced persians because they were cheap, but because I wanted an old style kitten.
But I think the poster just meant that the pet quality cats are generally cheaper than the show quality cats. The breeders usually sell their pet quality kittens for less than their show quality kittens. Which makes sense, as it show quality kittens are more rare. The breeder would also not want to place their show quality kitten in a pet home. Even if I got a most perfect show quality cat, it's qualities would be wasted because I wouldn't show him, so, why should I pay extra for show quality when all I want as a pet owner is a pet quality anyway?

 

[yosemite]

Originally Posted by tailsoluv

What makes you think that ANY serious, reputable breeders make any money breeding cats? Or that they don't do it for love of the animals? Did you think that a person would turn around and house whole males and females in their homes with all the associated work and care which comes from maintaining these animals if they didn't love the cats and the breed they choose to work with?

I don't believe I said anything about those breeders not loving their cats.

When you pay for a registered cat, you are HOPEFULLY paying for the breeder's knowledge of the genetic health of the lines, something which you have NO shot of doing if the cats are not registered without traceable pedigrees. Just because a cat is registered, it does NOT make it show quality. Registered breeders do sell out their pet-quality kittens, but what makes them a pet vs. breeder or show is merely cosmetic - not as a result of a possible lethal problem.

My breeder IS registered - but you pay less for the kitten if you don't request the registered papers.

If you want a cheap, non-registered "Siamese" you can acquire one from www.meezer.org or any other of a number of breed-specific rescue groups who wind up having to save the "cheap" Siamese that people dump because they didn't pay enough for the cats to value them. That way, at least you are saving a cat whose ancestry is unknown rather than paying for the privilege of someone who feels that its just fun to have a bunch of kittens running around their house whose ancestries are also unknown.

I was not looking for a "CHEAP" Siamese - I was looking for an "AFFORDABLE" Siamese from someone whom I know breeds and raises cats WITH A WONDERFUL TEMPERAMENT. I also believe that anyone who would "dump" a cat would have dumped the cat regardless of what they paid. They obviously have no integrity. My breeder also knows the ancestry of her cats and kittens.

It is also of concern that if a person cannot afford to pay a reasonable pet price for a registered kitten, they probably also can't afford to pay vet bills if something happens to the animal.

That's a pretty large assumption on your part. Perhaps they prefer not to pay the large sum even if they could afford it. I personally won't buy anything from someone who is charging more for something I can get elsewhere for less. Call me miserly if you must!


I'm sure that you love your baby with all of your heart, and it is perfectly proper for someone who wishes to preserve Old Style bloodlines in the breed for the sake of preserving the breed - the resulting kittens not being showable - but it is NOT OK to have people breed for no purpose other than to produce kittens for the pet trade. There are way too many kittens/cats looking for loving permanent homes. There is no need for people to breed to produce more of these cats.

Yes there are lots of kittens and cats that need homes, but I WANTED A SIAMESE - go figure! I also personally do not like the Modern Siamese and much prefer Applehead and Traditional so I do feel there is a need for these breeders to produce more of these cats for folks like me.


The current going rate in the Northeastern US for pet-quality modern Siamese from a reptuable breeder is $500.00. The price of Old Style kittens may cost even more.

Our Bijou cost us $175 CDN.

Sorry to make you feel I'm being harsh, but I cannot condone breeding just for the sake of producing pets. There is a great deal of difference between someone who breeds an untitled cat and someone who breeds an unregistered cat or a registered cat who is of such poor quality typewise that there is absolutely no possibility of its or any of its offspring ever being shown.

If I said or implied that our breeder was not registered I erred. She is registered and the quality of her animals is impeccable. Those of us who have her animals have them because they are very gentle, loving, hand-raised animals that sleep with her and her family and are exceptionally socialized before we ever got them and we have no desire to SHOW them - just love them and spoil them and get immense pleasure just looking at them. When I look at Bijou my heart flip-flops.

Barb Amalfi

YES, I NEED a breeder like this.

 

[wellingtoncats]

Originally Posted by elizwithcat

The problem is, that because modern styles are the standard now, the old styles cats have no chance of winning anything. But many people, like myself, prefer traditional styles. So, even though the goal of the breeder is to preserve those genes, the only thing they can produce is pets. Which is perfectly fine with people like me, who would never show cats anyway, even if they were show style, but instead want a traditional style kitten. As for money, the same argument could be made for people who adopt moggie cats, is that they could not afford a vet bill.

So what if they don't have a chance of winning? Get over it. If you want to win get a show quality one.

Yeah but the point Gaye was trying to make was breeders that just breed for the sake of selling kittens, if a breeder is preserving genes then that is fine.

 

[elizwithcat]

Originally Posted by WellingtonCats

So what if they don't have a chance of winning? Get over it. If you want to win get a show quality one.

Yeah but the point Gaye was trying to make was breeders that just breed for the sake of selling kittens, if a breeder is preserving genes then that is fine.

I think I already pointed out, not only I don't want to win, I wouldn't attend the shows even if I had a perfect show quality cat. And being the pet owner, I don't think it really makes a difference to me if the breeder's goal is to preserve genes or to just produce pet quality kittens. How does the goal of the breeder, whatever that is, affects someone like me, who wants a pet quality cat in a first place? I still want a breeder that produces healthy cats with the looks and temperament that I like, obviously.

 

[megmar6853]

I do not have CHEAP cats. Mow my spayed seal was US 450, my blue point Sarah was 350 and my show quality seal point female was $1,000. I do not think that anyone here would say that I have cheap cats.
Truthfully, I have read alot of articles about diseases at the shows. I do not want to take my show female there until she is over a year. As for my other two I do not want to even expose them to the germs unnessarily. Sarah is breeder quality and Mow is spayed. Although, reputable breeders have seen Mow and said that he would definately win champion status.

 

[cyberkitten]

This is just a quick reply - I am still under the weather (Why is it migraines attack when we are on vacation - a rhetorical question, I think it is bec of the pressures we are under (in my case, post traumatic stress - one can only handle so many tours of duty with Drs without Borders and then come back to seeing dying children I have treated and grown fond of over the yrs. Hence the migraibe - but I need it to be better by Wed so cross your fongers and send out some vibes for me, please!)

I am a bit astonished at where this debate has gone. I did not mean to be rude Pat - and certainly not to Wellington Farms. I must admit I honestly did not know you are a registered breeder - that's wonderful. I certainly never ever thought you were anything but ethical and if I came across that way, I am truly sorry. I have a busy life so I do not have time to read every post nor do I know who has a cattery or who does not. I tend to read the New Posts and read the ones that I think I might be able to help with or are of interest to me. Before that is misinterpreted, please be assured I do not mean to slight anyone by not reading sll posts. I work very long hours and this place is a stress reducer of sorts for me - and a place to find out info about cats , sort of a PTA for kitties if you will.

It is my opinion that most people here love their cats and are excellent breeders and cat people. I can only reiterate that the organization I am familiar with - and I do not know the ethical coniderations of others save the national ones - strongly discourages the breeding of Queens before their 1st birthday unless of course their health would be affected which as was noted, can occur. I have two award winning Sphynx at the moment and they are certainly eligible to be bred but since their meomy is in a coma and I am just the foster (part of her living will). But they continue to win. I personally do not have the time to breed them and if their meomy dies, I will likely spay them. I have been so chagrined at the overpopulation of cats and horrified by backyard breeders who are hurting the legitimate breeders - who go thru all the regular channels only to have these ppl - who are in it mostly for a profit, even those who claim to love their pets, sighhhhh - undercut the whole program. Canada is also diuscussing adding the GST to registered catteries so that is another huge debate here.

But I guess I just assumed (prob not a ghood thing to do) that most ppl here were quite unanimous in that pedigreed, titled cats are the only ones who should be bred. It seems to be the way of the world here and the only ethics I understand. I don't actually understand - to be frank - why one would breed a cat who is not up to the breed standard???

I did not realize either that the response was to just the time issue. It was late, I am sick and going thru a difficult time so my mind was prob not as focued on reading the first comment I responded to. What shocked me was the comment that it's a cat - breed it which I interpreted to mean if you have a Queen, well just let her get pregnant, don;t worry about it. That is how it came across to me at any rate. I have no idea any more how it was intended.

I thought Wellington Cats was a good breeder and was not certain it was the same person (it was 3 or 4 am when I posted the remark) and I did find it unsual that so respected a breeder would say that and wondered if it was the same person to be honest. (Again, perhaps one should not post when in pain and not well, I don't know anymore). All I could think of was how could anyone say well if you have a cat, breed her no matter what and I could not ethically - even tho I was in bed and not even typing well (tho I am not a great typist at the best of times, lol)- let that comment pass. To me, it sounded as if someone was saying anyone who as a Queen should breed her anytime. It was one comment that really concerned me and I guess I needed a clarification.

And I guess I did recieve one, lol

I do apologize again. I wish I had time to read everyone's profile (did not know that was a requirement - if it is, I guess I should just leave bec it's just impossible!) and every post but I have so little time to post as it is.

I have still to read the rest of the message - my head aches too much to read past the part where Wellington Cats demanded an apology and I have to go back to bed. (I am no good to anyone if I do not handle this stuff, post traumatic stress at al).

If I am not welcome here, I understand - I think - tho I think it is very unfair for you to all jump on me at this time, How can i possibly know everyone's details? With all due respect, one would have to be here morning, noon and nite to do that - I responded to a comment that sounded like someone was advocating breeding ever Queen in sight anytime!!! I don't aplogize for that - I do apologize for any misconception that I was showing disrespect. I know most of the breeders here are excellent (I say most bec occasionally someone comes on with a cat who has become pregnant or they are pondering breeding the family pet, etc) - I was not questioning that. I was just upset at that very blunt comment. It made no sense in the context of where I am coming from - a proponent of spaying and neutering and breeding onkly pedigreeded titled purebred cats that meet the standard of their breed. I will not compromise that belief in nay way.