Should I feed my cat dry or wet food?

[minka]

Originally Posted by Ducman69

If you're not able to figure out the difference between "chicken" and "meat by-product" from the definition, I don't really know what to say to that. Its fairly self explanatory IMO, and should be obvious that chicken breast/legs are more nutritious protein sources than unnamed source poultry feet, heads/beaks, and guts (that's what viscera means).

Now, don't go around telling people that 'chicken' equals breast/leg meat, because that wouldn't be truthful. Chicken is "the clean combination of flesh and skin with or without accompanying bone, derived from the parts or whole carcasses of chicken." Or in other words, a combination of muscle, fat, bone and skin. It's not the same as the raw boneless chicken you pick up at the grocery store.

 

[ducman69]

Last time I bought chicken breast/legs at Krogers it had bones, meat, fat, and skin. And yes, that is a far cry from feat, heads/beak, and guts. Are you also agreeing that you can't tell the difference? Cmon now.

If I put a whole cleaned turkey in front of you, you'd think it was thanksgiving. If I put "poultry by-products" on a plate in front of you, you'd probably barf!

 

[sweetpea24]

O

Originally Posted by Ducman69

This is not accurate, the definitions for ingredients are specific and are regulated by the FDA, the same as the ingredients on the food that you eat.

The AAFCO provides recommendations to the FDA on nutrient profiles and the like for the pet food manufacturers to follow. Labels on the front are only enforced in a few specific ways regarding wording they are permitted to use, but the ingredients list on the back is strictly enforced.

If you're not able to figure out the difference between "chicken" and "meat by-product" from the definition, I don't really know what to say to that. Its fairly self explanatory IMO, and should be obvious that chicken breast/legs are more nutritious protein sources than unnamed source poultry feet, heads/beaks, and guts (that's what viscera means).

I wouldn't get TOO hung up on grain free, as long as they aren't throwing in lots of wheat, soy, corn, and the like. The grain free food both wet and dry still often has peas, potatoes, carrots, and other starches in there. So if a food has several named meats as first ingredients, and has some brown rice in there, that's no biggie IMO. You just don't want a high carb food.

you really think that chicken breast and chicken thighs go into pet food? They take chickens that are for human consumption, take what is.used for human consumption and them put the rest into pet food and then the.rest into cosmetics, and other materials. So .after removing the.thighs, drumsticks, breast and whatever else that humans eat, is the carcass, viscera (I do know what that is thank you) and skin which is for pet food and other stuff. The aafco does not have the power to regulate this, let alone by-products. If the fda allows melamin into the.us food production, then why would they care about pet food? There is really not much difference between the definition of by-products and what goes into pet food as meat. I think you missed my meaning. I can tell the difference between heads, viscera and the meat of the chicken but what's in our pets' food is not ehat the aafco would like us to believe. With.regards to nutrient profiles, well all tue grocery store foods and a leather.boot can meet aafco nutrient profiles. That doesn't convince me that my pet's food is what we consider the meat. Aafco feeding trials dont mean much only that an animal will survive for 6 months.whoopee do. It's good that theu have these trials but.they are only the minimum. Many pet food companies dont do these. I am not so naive to think that an organization like aafco is making sure.my cat gets the proverbial and literal drumstick.

 

[ducman69]

I'm sorry, but whoever fed you your information is flat out wrong. "Chicken" is a clean chicken carcass per FDA standards, and cannot include byproducts or 4-D animals or other "waste" products of the human food industry. Unnamed by-products, meat meal, bone meal, and the like can, which is another distinction that you don't seem to be able to make between the two ingredients. The FTC and USDA are also governing bodies involved. I would wager you don't have a source for your claim.

 

[auntie crazy]

Actually, SweetPea is spot on correct; in NO way are the products that go into commercially-prepared pet foods comparable to what we pick up from the grocery store, and the pet food industry was most definitely formed, in part, to find a way to make agricultural discards profitable. A history of the pet food industry can be found on the Feline Nutrition Education Society's site in their "Features" section. It makes for fascinating reading.

On "regulation" (from the FNES site):

Pet food manufacturers are regulated at the federal level by the FDA, under the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act ( FFDCA). Within the FDA, the Center for Veterinary Medicine (CVM) is responsible for the regulation of animal feed products, although they do not set any standards for pet food, and only regulate animal drugs, medicated feeds (which are almost entirely for livestock) and food additives. There is no pre-market approval requirement for pet foods.

The FDA fulfills its mandate for pet food regulation by partnering with the Association of American Feed Control Officials (AAFCO), "an organization almost entirely independent of government control." AAFCO has no enforcement authority and does not perform any analytical testing on pet food. A pet food manufacturer is only required to comply with the pet food regulations of the state in which it manufactures or sells its products.

As you can see, there is actually very little regulation of the pet food industry.

As far as ingredients lists, what you think you're getting in the food is often very far from the truth. There are many tricks to making a food look "healthier" than it actually is. One used very frequently is dividing a grain or other filler product into multiple "parts" so they all show up further down the list when, in fact, the food consists primarily of that filler.

The Feline-Nutrition Education Society does a good job explaining this in their article "Reading a Pet Food Ingredient Label" in their Nutrition section.

And some of those innocuous-looking ingredients are actually pretty nasty. Here are several important ingredient definitions (as provided by TruthAboutPetFood.com):

Animal Fat (preserved with BHA/BHT) - is a fat produced through the rendering process; imagine a very large pot that cooks a variety of animal ingredients. The fat that rises to the top of the pot becomes Animal Fat. FDA testing of pet food linked this ingredient to the discovery of the euthanizing drug phenobarbital (used to end the life of dogs, cats, and horses) in pet food. Any animal including euthanized animals, road kill, diseased animals (per FDA associations) can be the source of this fat.

Chicken By-Product Meal - per AAFCO - consists of the ground, rendered, clean parts of the carcass of slaughtered chicken such as necks, feet, undeveloped eggs, and intestines. By-Products could be sourced from healthy internal organs of slaughtered animals OR the by-products could be sourced from diseased tissues rejected as human grade.

Meat By Products - is the mammal parts other than meat. By-Products could be sourced from healthy internal organs of slaughtered animals OR the by-products could be sourced from diseased tissues rejected as human grade.

Meat and Bone Meal - AAFCO definition "is the rendered product from mammal tissues, including bone, exclusive of any added blood, hair, hoof, horn, hide trimmings, manure, stomach and rumen contents…" FDA testing of pet food linked this ingredient to the discovery of the euthanizing drug phenobarbital (used to end the life of dogs, cats, and horses) in pet food. Any animal including euthanized animals, road kill, diseased animals (per FDA associations) can be the source of this ingredient.

Poultry By-Product Meal - per AAFCO - consists of the ground, rendered, clean parts of the carcass of slaughtered poultry such as necks, feet, undeveloped eggs, and intestines. This ingredient can be any type of poultry (chicken, duck, turkey, and so forth). By-Products could be sourced from healthy internal organs of slaughtered animals OR the by-products could be sourced from diseased tissues rejected as human grade.

This is probably more information than most folks are looking for, but here is some additional reading for those who who would like to understand the pet food industry and what goes into the making of pet foods a bit more:

The "Pet Food Ingredients" and "Regulations" sections of TheTruthAboutPetFood.com.

"Food Pets Die For: Shocking Facts About Pet Food" by Ann N. Martin and Shawn Messonier

"Protect Your Pet: More Shocking Facts" by Ann N. Martin

"Buyer Beware: The Crimes, Lies and Truth about Pet Food" by Susan Thixton

It's easy to forget, but the pet food industry's goal is to make money, not to provide us with nice, healthy foods for our pets. You can be quite certain they aren't using fresh whole chicken legs or breasts; any chicken present in the food was unfit for human consumption when it was tossed into the vat.

AC

 

[ducman69]

By that logic then the FDA also does nothing for human food regulation either, and last I checked there were no human food manufacturers that were run for charity.

And again, chicken by-product meal, meat by-products, meat and bone meal, and poultry by-product meal has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO with a can of Wellness that has Chicken, Turkey, and Chicken Liver as primary ingredients, so this FUD is total nonsense. A reminder that the whole start of this was the claim that there is no real difference between "chicken" and "poultry by-products" which by the very definition is completely false.

 

[yosemite]

Originally Posted by Ducman69

By that logic then the FDA also does nothing for human food regulation either, and last I checked there were no human food manufacturers that were run for charity.

And again, chicken by-product meal, meat by-products, meat and bone meal, and poultry by-product meal has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO with a can of Wellness that has Chicken, Turkey, and Chicken Liver as primary ingredients, so this FUD is total nonsense. A reminder that the whole start of this was the claim that there is no real difference between "chicken" and "poultry by-products" which by the very definition is completely false.

I'm not sure how human food regulations got mixed up in this thread, however there is definitely a difference between chicken, chicken meal, and chicken by-products.

I went back to read all the posts and I didn't find the post that claimed there was no real difference between chicken and poultry by-products. I may well have missed it.

Different manufacturers will use different by-products as well. Some may use "better" quality by-products but they are all by-products IMO. Chicken meal is dehydrated chicken just as beef meal would be dehydrated beef.

 

[minka]

Ducman, nobody said there wasn't a difference between chicken and chicken by-products. What was said was that what is in pet food is usually the leftovers of human production.

 

[sweetpea24]

Thanks AC, well done.

By definition, there is a difference. I can read. But in reality, what goes in pet food is what is left after the parts for human consumption are taken out. You can also read "Feed Your Pet Right" by Marion Nestle and ??? Nesbeim.

And yes, the food industry, pet food, human food or otherwise, is not what you may think. Words are just that, words. They can make you believe what you want or you can read between the lines. I have read testimonials from vets saying that they have visited factories of non-rx food companies and would not feed their goat the food that comes out of them.

The pet food industry is run by...you may be able to guess...money. Or profit. Not for the health of our animals. The turkey or chicken in a can of Wellness is not the same as the chicken breast or drumstick or thigh you are getting at the grocery store, as others have stated.

People get all excited over their pet's food being human grade...but in reality, it just means that the chicken or whatever meat is graded for human consumption but only the parts that are for human consumption are kept for human consumption. The parts that still made it as human grade but not kept for human consumption are kept for pet food, cosmetics or other uses like motor oil or the like. I'm not sure if that makes it clearer but to me, pet food is the by-product of meat meant for human consumption. By the official definition, no but in reality, yes. And yes, I do believe that the human food industry is in dire condition. The FDA has to please the consumers as well as the producers. In the end, it all comes down to profit.

 

[yosemite]

Originally Posted by SweetPea24

Thanks AC, well done.

By definition, there is a difference. I can read. But in reality, what goes in pet food is what is left after the parts for human consumption are taken out. You can also read "Feed Your Pet Right" by Marion Nestle and ??? Nesbeim.

And yes, the food industry, pet food, human food or otherwise, is not what you may think. Words are just that, words. They can make you believe what you want or you can read between the lines. I have read testimonials from vets saying that they have visited factories of non-rx food companies and would not feed their goat the food that comes out of them.

The pet food industry is run by...you may be able to guess...money. Or profit. Not for the health of our animals. The turkey or chicken in a can of Wellness is not the same as the chicken breast or drumstick or thigh you are getting at the grocery store, as others have stated.

People get all excited over their pet's food being human grade...but in reality, it just means that the chicken or whatever meat is graded for human consumption but only the parts that are for human consumption are kept for human consumption. The parts that still made it as human grade but not kept for human consumption are kept for pet food, cosmetics or other uses like motor oil or the like. I'm not sure if that makes it clearer but to me, pet food is the by-product of meat meant for human consumption. By the official definition, no but in reality, yes. And yes, I do believe that the human food industry is in dire condition. The FDA has to please the consumers as well as the producers. In the end, it all comes down to profit.

Excellent post and very clear.

 

[ducman69]

Very clearly wrong you mean.

Originally Posted by Yosemite

I'm not sure how human food regulations got mixed up in this thread, however there is definitely a difference between chicken, chicken meal, and chicken by-products.

Yes, there absolutely IS a huge difference, thank you. And your complaints about the FDA apply to human food regulation as well, and its the exact same entity.

Originally Posted by Yosemite

I went back to read all the posts and I didn't find the post that claimed there was no real difference between chicken and poultry by-products. I may well have missed it.

Yes, you did, see below:

Originally Posted by SweetPea24

Pet food is.basically by-products of human food production. According to the AAFCO's definitions of an animal's meat and its by-products, there really isn't much of a distinction.

Example: poultry is defined as "the clean combination of flesh and skin with or without accompanying bone, derived from the parts of whole carcasses of poultry or a combination thereof, exclusive of feathers, heads, feet, and entrails.

Poultry by- products "must consist of non-rendered clean parts of carcasses of slaughtered poultry such as heads, feet, viscera, free from fecal content and.foreign matter except in some trace amounts as might occur unavoidably in good factory practice."

You can pat each other on the back as much as you like, but I can't believe I have to explain that there is a difference between NOT feathers heads, feet, and guts, and something that IS made up of those things by definition.

Yes, by-products of human chicken manufacture are often used in pet food, but they are defined accordingly, as by-products.

There has also been absolutely zero evidence provided that chicken is anything but whole cleaned chicken, and in fact quite to the contrary. The only thing demonstrated is that BY-PRODUCTS are, yes, BY-PRODUCTS of human chicken manufacture.

That's why they're called by-products... but guess what, something that by its definition is NOT a by-product is, ding-ding, NOT a by-product. The reason I take issue with this misinformation, is that it is VERY misleading fear mongering that can steer people wrong. By-products as primary protein source should be avoided in favor of named meat sources whenever possible, but I assume the real agenda is just to push raw.

 

[minka]

Originally Posted by Ducman69

Very clearly wrong you mean.

Yes, there absolutely IS a huge difference, thank you. And your complaints about the FDA apply to human food regulation as well, and its the exact same entity.

Yes, you did, see below:

You can pat each other on the back as much as you like, but I can't believe I have to explain that there is a difference between NOT feathers heads, feet, and guts, and something that IS made up of those things by definition.

Yes, by-products of human chicken manufacture are often used in pet food, but they are defined accordingly, as by-products.

There has also been absolutely zero evidence provided that chicken is anything but whole cleaned chicken, and in fact quite to the contrary. The only thing demonstrated is that BY-PRODUCTS are, yes, BY-PRODUCTS of human chicken manufacture.

That's why they're called by-products... but guess what, something that by its definition is NOT a by-product is, ding-ding, NOT a by-product. The reason I take issue with this misinformation, is that it is VERY misleading fear mongering that can steer people wrong. By-products as primary protein source should be avoided in favor of named meat sources whenever possible, but I assume the real agenda is just to push raw.

Dude. I don't even feed raw.

What I don't think you are understanding is not that we are saying chicken equals beaks, feet, etc; but that chicken does Not equal the kind of chicken you find in the grocery store. If you have ever bought a whole frozen turkey, you would know that some parts of it are quite icky. That stuff would not be considered by-product because it is not organs, intestines, beaks, feet, etc. It's just some of the flesh that is funky for whatever anatomical reason. It's the part you throw down to your dog because you know nobody at the dinner table would want to eat it. And that's also what they put in most cat foods. (And dog foods for that matter.)

Don't take all of this personally as you seem to be doing; nobody is forcing you to change anything about your own cat's diets. If all this makes you feel mad/uncomfortable because you felt good about feeding your cats the food you are feeding and now we are basically pointing out that it's not that great, well, sorry. Either do something about it or don't, but don't take it out on people who have put forward many years of their lives towards protecting not only the animals they care about, but other's animals as well.

 

[ducman69]

Originally Posted by Minka

Don't take all of this personally as you seem to be doing; nobody is forcing you to change anything about your own cat's diets.

Say "Dear Minka" and read that back to yourself as well.

It should be painfully obvious that I do not directly benefit when I offer my constructive input on a myriad of subjects in threads throughout the forum. I do it to help the community as I was helped, and as such do not believe in allowing blatant misinformation that could affect other member's purchasing decisions to go unchecked.

The food is regulated by the same entity that regulates human food, the definitions are precise and are enforced as demonstrated, by-products are absolutely used frequently in the pet food industry but are labeled as such... byproducts. No factual information whatsoever has been provided to show that NON-byproduct chicken is made of byproducts or that the breasts and legs are removed before being put into cat food, making the statement hearsay, and also beside the point from SweetPea24's false statement that there is little difference between chicken and poulty by-product. If someone goes out shopping for cat food, and thinks, "well, why should I even bother paying all this extra money for named meat sources when by-product is essentially the same", I would at least feel better having voiced that this is nonsense.

 

[just mike]

Originally Posted by Ducman69

Say "Dear Minka" and read that back to yourself as well.

It should be painfully obvious that I do not directly benefit when I offer my constructive input on a myriad of subjects in threads throughout the forum. I do it to help the community as I was helped, and as such do not believe in allowing blatant misinformation that could affect other member's purchasing decisions to go unchecked.

The food is regulated by the same entity that regulates human food, the definitions are precise and are enforced as demonstrated, by-products are absolutely used frequently in the pet food industry but are labeled as such... byproducts. No factual information whatsoever has been provided to show that NON-byproduct chicken is made of byproducts or that the breasts and legs are removed before being put into cat food, making the statement hearsay, and also beside the point from SweetPea24's false statement that there is little difference between chicken and poulty by-product. If someone goes out shopping for cat food, and thinks, "well, why should I even bother paying all this extra money for named meat sources when by-product is essentially the same", I would at least feel better having voiced that this is nonsense.

Could not have said it better myself Ducman. Very factual and valid information. Thank you.

 

[sweetpea24]

You have obviously missed my and Minka's and Auntie Crazy's meaning. Sorry we seem to be.'patting each other's back' but we are respectfully agreeing and supporting our opinion. If our opinions match, then so be it (although I am humbled to be in the company of so many knowledgeable people).

This 'nonsense' you talk about is something that I have obviously failed to clarify. I am well aware that the fda is the same for both pet and human food...it doesn't mean that either are very well controlled and regulated. However, you have your opinion and I have mine. I, along with Minka and Auntie Crazy have all been respectful and not called your opinions or beliefs nonsense. What you deem as us patting each other on the back is not one-sided. There are some who agree with you and make that blatantly clear. So? It jist means more discussion. It doesn't mean we cannot maintain respect for each others' point of view. However, i will never believe that the food industry has as.much integrity as you'd like to believe. My whole point was that the chicken that makes it to your pet's dish is.not the same as the chicken that makes it to your dinner.table even though the definition reads like they should be the same. The way I have used the term 'by-products' is to describe how the parts of the.chicken that are not used for human consumption (but have made it into the human grade category) are used for pet food. If the definition of chicken is the whole carcass, what is left after taking out the parts that humans are willing to eat (thighs, drumsticks, breast, wings)?

I can see your point of view and why you would come to the conclusions you have. However, I feel like we have come to a.stalemate and why don't we just agree to disagree?

 

[yosemite]

Originally Posted by Ducman69

Very clearly wrong you mean.

Yes, there absolutely IS a huge difference, thank you. And your complaints about the FDA apply to human food regulation as well, and its the exact same entity.Yes, you did, see below:

You can pat each other on the back as much as you like, but I can't believe I have to explain that there is a difference between NOT feathers heads, feet, and guts, and something that IS made up of those things by definition.

Yes, by-products of human chicken manufacture are often used in pet food, but they are defined accordingly, as by-products.

There has also been absolutely zero evidence provided that chicken is anything but whole cleaned chicken, and in fact quite to the contrary. The only thing demonstrated is that BY-PRODUCTS are, yes, BY-PRODUCTS of human chicken manufacture.

That's why they're called by-products... but guess what, something that by its definition is NOT a by-product is, ding-ding, NOT a by-product. The reason I take issue with this misinformation, is that it is VERY misleading fear mongering that can steer people wrong. By-products as primary protein source should be avoided in favor of named meat sources whenever possible, but I assume the real agenda is just to push raw.

It appears you have confused some posts and posters. I don't believe I said anything about the FDA, in fact, since I'm in Canada we don't have an "FDA".

As I did say, however, there are "by-products" and there are "by-products" and they are not always equal. I got this information directly from a food manufacturer here in Canada. Now, having said that, I'm pretty sure they were trying to sell me on the idea that their by-products were better than the competition's by-products.

I don't feed raw and few of us do so I'm not sure what your are getting at. In fact I find your whole post a bit confusing. We were saying by-products were not a good idea and you seem to be confirming that but somehow think we disagree with you and are fear mongering.

 

[ducman69]

Yosemite, the reason this thread is confusing IMO, is that I made a very specific response to SweetPea24's comment that there is little difference between chicken and poultry by-product, and its difficult to manage a four way conversation. There is a world of difference. Yosemite, you agree. End of story.

On a tangent that was brought up, there is no factual evidence, merely hearsay, that the chicken in pet food is devoid of breast and leg meat.

So its nice to see united girl power and all *holds fist in the air*, but its causing a whole lot of confusion when Minka for example is acting like I was speaking directly to her when I'm quoting someone else. *facepalm*

To quote Rodney King, "Can't we all just get along."

 

[arlyn]

Ever been to a slaughterhouse or rendering plant?

I have and I can tell you that what gets shipped off to pet food, fertilizer and comsmetics plants is not anything that resemembles anything that you'd want to eat.

Yes, there are indeed entire chickens, rabbits, ducks etc that go to pet food plants, but it certainly doesn't look edible, though I was told on my tour that 'most' of them were simply killed in transport accidentally.
How? who knows.
Fumes, crushed, heat could be any number of reasons.

That, by definition, makes those animal By-products

 

[auntie crazy]

Originally Posted by Ducman69

Yosemite, the reason this thread is confusing IMO, is that I made a very specific response to SweetPea24's comment that there is little difference between chicken and poultry by-product, and its difficult to manage a four way conversation. There is a world of difference. Yosemite, you agree. End of story.

On a tangent that was brought up, there is no factual evidence, merely hearsay, that the chicken in pet food is devoid of breast and leg meat.

So its nice to see united girl power and all *holds fist in the air*, but its causing a whole lot of confusion when Minka for example is acting like I was speaking directly to her when I'm quoting someone else. *facepalm*

To quote Rodney King, "Can't we all just get along."

You've completely mis-characterized this conversation, but then, every time someone responds to one of your "points", you move the conversation, so I'm not in the least surprised.

And "girl power"? Really? You're resorting to a diminutive term like that?

This is the second time you've been disrespectful; it's also the end of this conversation for me.

AC

 

[minka]

Originally Posted by Arlyn

Ever been to a slaughterhouse or rendering plant?

I have and I can tell you that what gets shipped off to pet food, fertilizer and comsmetics plants is not anything that resemembles anything that you'd want to eat.

Yes, there are indeed entire chickens, rabbits, ducks etc that go to pet food plants, but it certainly doesn't look edible, though I was told on my tour that 'most' of them were simply killed in transport accidentally.
How? who knows.
Fumes, crushed, heat could be any number of reasons.

That, by definition, makes those animal By-products

There Ducman, now it's not 'hearsay'.

I'm also done due to your inability to be respectful.