Savannahs (opinions, please)

[ferriscat]

Originally Posted by abbycats

Do you think that since we have those breeds of cats with spots the door should be closed to new breeds?

Yes, in short, that is what I think. Why do we need yet another cat breed with spots? There is no need to create what already exsits in another form! When a new breed is up for consideration in CFA, the breed councils of breeds that are similar to the new breed are given the opportunity to weigh in on how the new breed might influence them. Breeds become less "special" if there are half a dozen versions of the same thing.

I'm not sure how things work in TICA, so I can't speak for them

 

[ut0pia]

Originally Posted by FerrisCat

Yes, in short, that is what I think. Why do we need yet another cat breed with spots? There is no need to create what already exsits in another form! When a new breed is up for consideration in CFA, the breed councils of breeds that are similar to the new breed are given the opportunity to weigh in on how the new breed might influence them. Breeds become less "special" if there are half a dozen versions of the same thing.

I'm not sure how things work in TICA, so I can't speak for them

Savannahs, Bengals, Ocicats are all different IMO...the fact that they all have spots to me doesn't make them similar enough to be discouraged from breeding more cats with spots. If it was just about the color, i'd be completely satisfied with a regular tabby, it's not too different than spots. But I like the fact that f1 savannahs are bigger, have different personality, different visage, I dunno they are just so much cooler than any other cats I've encountered!

 

[celestialrags]

Were cats/dogs, or any other animal just born living with people or some thing? I mean at some point some one had to demesticate them right? Didn't dogs come from the wolf, and some one decided that they were useful and started from there, right? Every thing has to start from some where. Horses were wild, but then we decided they could be useful and demesticated them. I don't necasarily belive some one should breed a horse to a donkey either, but now we have mules, and people love them. The savannah, like the bengal will eventually get to the point where behaviour won't be an issue either. They will continue to breed no matter the objections by close minded people, and the only thing we can do is encourage that people do the research and be aware of what they are getting into and encourage proper breeding methods continue with breeds like savannahs, ect, so like the bengal, temperment will no longer be an issue as well (nial, or any other bengal breeder/owner,ect, i am in no way trying to bash or put down the breed in any way, just using them as an example) Bengals had the same temerment issues, and such as savannahs, but now are being more excepted and popular as the breed grows and is established, same will happen with the savanah as like as dedicated breeders (like the ones we have here) are serious about further and bettering the breed to have them fit a certain standard and behaviour, I am not talking about people making "designer breeds" to intice people with false information, just to make a quick buck on a small cheetah,ect cat, but true dedicated breeders that work hard for some thing they are serious about. Every thing changes and grows, or improves no matter how much we don't like it, there really isn't much stopping it.

 

[sohni]

http://www.arkanimals.com/ark/ws_fel...t_hybrids.html

Feline Hybrids: What is the Fascination?

Feline hybrids (cat hybrids) are a trend. Why is it that many people will protest the sale of the pelts of those exotic cats found worldwide, but will fall for the promotion and want to buy exotic felid hybrids? The canid hybrid situation is tough enough, but the felid hybrid situation presents some of the same problems in a less obvious manner.

We are fascinated by wild animals and have this tremendous desire to "connect" with them in some way. Unfortunately the trade and focus occurring in the private propagation and sale of any hybrid does not contribute to proper conservation and understanding of any of the true wild animals. True conservation and preservation of any species involves several different routes of effort. Habitat conservation, promotion of understanding of the animal and its role in the environment, responsible management and the abolishment of trade, are a few of the more realist roles that do make a difference to many of those endangered or threatened animals.

It is a sad situation to deal with owners who buy these hybrid animals and then have to relinquish them to shelters, euthanize them because they cannot adapt, or worse. This problem is not unique to that of hybrid ownership either. Each year the domestic pet population skyrockets with thousands of domestic animals that end up being killed due to the lack of owner commitment, profit-oriented breeding by uninformed backyard breeders, and the continued trade and commerce of these animals and hybrids. There is also the same problem in the exotic animal ownership realm. All these problems end up surfacing in the animal sheltering and control industry. These challenges are something our communities should take seriously and work at solving.

Wild cats have attracted our attention with their beauty and their wildness like no other animal has. The attraction to these wild animals has created an allure that generated trade and legends worldwide. Humans like to profit from such fascination and people have been marketing crosses between the wild beast and the domesticated cat; this has created another nightmare for those dealing with animal related issues and behavior problems. These crosses cannot be guaranteed for temperament and often have specialized nutritional and behavioral needs--and you usually never know what you are going to get.

People love the coats of the wild cats, so they want to find an animal that has the look and bring it into the household. So, that is how the market was born! The motivating factors to obtain these pets are highly varied: Some people view them as status symbols while others own and breed them for financial reasons --marketing animals regardless of breeding, socialization, or heath considerations. Many breeders, who understand some of the difficulties, will advocate hand-rearing the kits from the ages of two to three weeks to help them be more social and amiable towards their new owners; it still is no guarantee that they will be.

For some reason many unsuspecting buyers think that these animals are going to be adoring and amiable pets --most often they are not. No matter what people think, the hybrid is not an animal that will help perpetuate the species of wild cat. Selfish human motives continue to harm animal species with a global impact. The bottom line is that they are not good pets and they require more care and understanding than the average household can provide.

True felid hybrids are a bit harder to define than some of the canid hybrids. They are often crosses of the Asian Leopard Cat (Prionailurus bengalensis), Jungle Cat (Felis chaus), Geoffroy's Cat (Oncifelis geoffroyi), Serval (Leptailurus serval), and the Bobcat (Lynx rufus). In most cases, the founder animals (animals from the wild or wild genetic pool) contribute to trade that harms the animal in the country of origin.

There are various types of repercussions that the hybrid crosses face. Genetically the physical complications include such things as sterility, birth defects, unique nutritional needs, and temperament instability. Many of the animals being bred cannot be integrated easily into the household or with other animals.

In the home environment, many hybrids will enjoy being active at early morning and evening hours --if not mainly at night. Many will not be very affectionate and often will stealthy move around the house. They usually do not adapt to new situations well and have a higher defense and predatory behavior drive than our domestic critters.

The commitment to a hybrid or a wild animal is a major one in comparison to a domestic animal. As with canid hybrids, having an approved vaccine for rabies for felid hybrids is another concern that the veterinary community feels needs to be addressed. These animals will also have higher needs for taurine than domestic cats, and often have genetic abnormalities that are not beneficial and that conflict with the natural selection geared toward the "survival of the fittest."

Felid hybrids are not allowed in only a few states that have specific legislation geared toward them; however regulation is difficult since it is hard to accurately identify these hybrids if you are not familiar with them. Even with the best of preparation, the challenges associated with hybrid ownership go far beyond the average pet owners skill and tolerance. Most hybrid animals will have unique socialization and rearing needs to give them an edge to adapting into a new household. There is still no guarantee that they will adapt.

Hybrids tend to weigh more and to be much larger than the average cat. Often they are much more developed in their musculature and strength. There are a variety of different hybrids: Chausies are a Jungle Cat cross; Savannahs are a Serval cross; Bengals are a Asian Leopard cat cross; Pixie-bob is an alleged Bobcat cross; there are more out there, but these are the most popular.

The evolution of each species of exotic feline has produced unique and specialty animals. True domestication takes thousands of years to accomplish and our domestic cats are thought to have been companions to man about half the time that dogs have. Human interference into this process focuses on specific traits that make our domestic animals amiable to living with or working for us. In only the best situations are they selectively bred for both strong physical and psychological traits.

Some breeders will call only the first three generations hybrids, but you cannot pinpoint what the percentage is that is genetically inherited predictably. Some also claim that records for intentional hybrid crosses have been said to have been found in the late 1800's, but it was also legal to own a wild or exotic cat into this century. It was not too long ago when Ocelots and Marguays were found in pet shops; that trade had a severe impact on the decimation of those species! The popularity of hybrids seems to have surged since about the time some of the regulations about owning exotics began to surface.

Hybrids, exotics, or wild cats are not recommended as pets. Exotics will have special housing needs and many previous owners of these critters find that they were fully unprepared for the bundle of energy that turns into a large feline with tremendous strength, appetite, and instincts for survival. Too many times have I seen the anger in those animals raised poorly and abandoned or rescued. There are not enough "animal dumpsites" around even though they are springing up around the nation. Rickets and other types of nutritional diseases, deformities and reproductive problems are just a few of the heart-wrenching sights seen personally.

If you are intent on purchasing a hybrid or an exotic we would encourage you to spend the time searching for the reason why you would want to do so. Spend even more time researching the animals and getting around them. Most exotics need permits and have special needs. Hybrids have distinct needs too. Contact the national conservation feline groups before you contact the national cat associations or breed groups and ask their opinion about the hybrid trade. Also contact the humane groups and talk to them about the concerns involving hybrids.

If you are still not convinced and insist on contacting the national cat associations and breed groups, make sure you actually spend some time around older animals of the breed. Don't just see one or two, see a wide variety and talk to others who have purchased the animals within a couple of years to find out how they have adapted. We discourage you from buying or supporting the trade of these animals, but if you do --get all the facts and do all the preparation you can.

About this animal expert: Since 1978 Diana L. Guerrero has worked professionally with both wild and domestic animals. Guerrero has been affiliated with, and certified by, a variety of animal programs in the USA and Europe. Based in California, she writes, consults, and speaks. Information on her animal career programs, training courses, and her books {What Animals Can Teach Us about Spirituality (SkyLight Paths, 2003), Blessing of the Animals (Sterling, 2007), Help! My Pet is Driving Me Crazy (Guerrero Ink, 2007), Animal Disaster Preparedness for Pet Owners & Pet Professionals (Guerrero Ink, 2007)} can be found in this web site and in the shop. Questions for Guerrero should be submitted via the blog comments or membership forum.

 

[goldenkitty45]

PLEASE do not lump the Ocicats in with those breeds that are spotted that are using wild cats to create them. Oci's are 100% domestic cats and were that way at the beginning. In fact, Oci's were a surprise result of Aby/Siamese - they never set out to create a spotted cat!

I think some of us are objecting because of breeding another type of cat with another type of wild cat - where do you stop the line? I don't get the Savannah either - you already had the Bengals with wild cat; why breed another cat to a different wild cat? What's the purpose of it?

 

[ferriscat]

Originally Posted by celestialrags

The savannah, like the bengal will eventually get to the point where behaviour won't be an issue either. They will continue to breed no matter the objections by close minded people, and the only thing we can do is encourage that people do the research and be aware of what they are getting into and encourage proper breeding methods

I don't consider myself to be closed minded about new breeds. I love the LaPerm, which JUST got accepted for championship status this year. I do have a problem with copycat breeds--why build what already exists?

Too many people are creating hybrids for no reason other than making a profit. How are we going to encourage them to do reasearch and use proper breeding methods when their main motivating factor is selling F1-3 kittens for thousands of dollars? If the breeders creating a breed don't progress beyond the third generation, then is a breed actually being created?

Our breeds are special. If anyone can throw two cats together (wild or domestic) and "create" a new breed, then it is hard to justify how special our existing breeds are. My TUV boy recently bred my friend's Birman girl, but nobody is going to try to justify the existance of Birvans (cute as they are, though!)

A breed needs to have something special about it, something that can't be found in any other breed of cat. We can already find pretty spots with a touch of the wild in the Bengal.

 

[abbycats]

Originally Posted by FerrisCat

I don't consider myself to be closed minded about new breeds. I love the LaPerm, which JUST got accepted for championship status this year. I do have a problem with copycat breeds--why build what already exists?

Too many people are creating hybrids for no reason other than making a profit. How are we going to encourage them to do reasearch and use proper breeding methods when their main motivating factor is selling F1-3 kittens for thousands of dollars? If the breeders creating a breed don't progress beyond the third generation, then is a breed actually being created?

Our breeds are special. If anyone can throw two cats together (wild or domestic) and "create" a new breed, then it is hard to justify how special our existing breeds are. My TUV boy recently bred my friend's Birman girl, but nobody is going to try to justify the existance of Birvans (cute as they are, though!)

A breed needs to have something special about it, something that can't be found in any other breed of cat. We can already find pretty spots with a touch of the wild in the Bengal.

I wouldn't consider a Savannah a copy cat breed to the Bengal. They look totally different. One from an ALC and one from an african serval cat.
Once upon a time all cats were wild and there wasn't the "Domesticated cat".

 

[missymotus]

Originally Posted by FerrisCat

If the breeders creating a breed don't progress beyond the third generation, then is a breed actually being created?

Savannahs are illegal here, and Bengals have to be over F5 to be imported, breeders don't have the option of going back to F1 etc. and we have some gorgeous Bengals generations away from even the F5.

 

[abbycats]

What brought us all to TCS was the love of cats, whether it be our beloved Mixed cat, pet purebred, show purebred, hybrid, or exotic cats. The original poster just wanted information about Savannah cats. I don't think that this should be a bashing session about hybrid cats.

 

[kai bengals]

Originally Posted by abbycats

I wouldn't consider a Savannah a copy cat breed to the Bengal. They look totally different. One from an ALC and one from an african serval cat.
Once upon a time all cats were wild and there wasn't the "Domesticated cat".

This is EXACTLY correct. The Savannah and Bengal are completely different.

For all the nay-sayers, the Savannah isn't going away. It's here to stay, get used to it. This breed will evolve in the same fashion as the bengal and will be another established popular breed among all the other breeds, to include the Toyger, which is another breed under fire from folks who hate change and development.
I will admit I was skeptical at first about the Toyger, because bengals are used in breeding programs, but I have seen these cats in person and have since changed my mind.
I have also seen several Savannah's in person at the shows and they are magnificent cats, very different from bengals.

To be honest, I often feel that all the opposition from non-wild spotted owners comes from jealousy of the genetic diversity the wild genes provide and the insanely beautiful coats that bengals sport. Savannahs will also be amazing in less than a decade. The Toyger is already very close.

It's too late, the horse is out of the barn, and thankfully so.

 

[ut0pia]

I second what others said about savannah and bengal looking different. Does this look like a bengal to you?
http://www.enchanted-cats.com/HighPe...teF1Female.jpg

It doesn't to me. It's an F1 Savannah

 

[nurseangel]

Thank you for your kind replies. I couldn't believe my question turned into kind of a debate, I didn't mean to offend. I actually want a Savannah more for their size than the spots (thought the spots are nice). I think the smaller spotted cats are lovely, with or without wild blood. In fact, my spotted tabby Speck is quite the heartbreaker, if I do say so myself.

 

[sohni]

I think that bengals and savannah's are beautiful cats, I just don't believe that the ends justified the means. They are the result of the unnatural breeding of different species of cats. And they come from wild cats which at some point in time had to have been caught and kept in cages. Domesticated cats have associated themselves with humans for thousands of years, and have been selectively bred into the forms they come in now.. the practice of breeding wild cats back into them is pretty recent....

 

[celestialrags]

Originally Posted by nurseangel

Thank you for your kind replies. I couldn't believe my question turned into kind of a debate, I didn't mean to offend. I actually want a Savannah more for their size than the spots (thought the spots are nice). I think the smaller spotted cats are lovely, with or without wild blood. In fact, my spotted tabby Speck is quite the heartbreaker, if I do say so myself.

It's to bad you can't get the info you were looking for, I don't know enough about the breed to give acuate info. Every breed question (especially when it envolves hybrids or exotics) tend to become a fight about wild blood/cat overpopulation, or too many breeders already breeding them, ect.
Since they are such a new breed and people are still fearful of change, ect. Mabey you could google them and do some web site searches and ask people who are not against them. You probley won't get specific breed info, just personal opinions about them and how they shouldn't be bred.
Personally (and im sure this will start a flurry of personal insults, lol!) I wouldn't mind a savannah, but what I would really like to get (never gonna happen though, before people really freak out, it's just a pipe dream) is the serval.

 

[ut0pia]

Originally Posted by Sohni

I think that bengals and savannah's are beautiful cats, I just don't believe that the ends justified the means. They are the result of the unnatural breeding of different species of cats. And they come from wild cats which at some point in time had to have

It's common for species to breed with their close relatives. Look at ligers and tigons, zorse, of course donkey someone already mentioned, there are many examples...It's not unnatural.

 

[sohni]

I'm sorry, but that is not common. That is a gimmick dreamed up by people trying to make money off "freakshow" animals. Zoos and circuses have done it for years. Ligons and Ligers and those kinds of crosses are not generally healthy - and there is a website dedicated to discussing the differences somewhere. I found it one day. The two animal's bone structure and growth hormones are so different that two completely different animals will be born depending on which species is the mother and vice versa.

Mules have been bred for years for domestic use. They are larger than donkeys and hardier than horses. They have a purpose. Cross bred animals for profit just doesn't cut it for me, and that is what this thread was - a request for opinions.

 

[goldenkitty45]

Lion/Tiger crosses are not natural as they would not occur in the wild. Lions and Tigers would never meet considering one is in Africa and the other in Asia.

And most wild cats would NOT naturally breed with domestic cats. If they did, don't you think there would be a lot more Bobcat/Lynx crosses with feral cats? Or even where the other wild cats live - there are domestic cats in the area - and they don't breed.

Man forces the cats to breed by caging them. And some wild cats have a longer gestation period which can kill a domestic cat (or a shorter one).

 

[ut0pia]

Actually, it happens by accident with tigers and lions. It's standard procedure in zoos to keep them separate but it can happen...Anyway, i'm fascinated with hybrids...The zebra and horse hybrid is beautiful also

And it would be happening in the wild if they species weren't isolated from each other....

 

[celestialrags]

Originally Posted by Sohni

Mules have been bred for years for domestic use. They are larger than donkeys and hardier than horses. They have a purpose. Cross bred animals for profit just doesn't cut it for me, and that is what this thread was - a request for opinions.

Yes the OP did ask for opinions, didn't they? I'm sure she wasn't prepared for that, and doesn't do it again. She will probley word it better in the future sticking to asking for acurate info and not personal opinions, if she even dears to ask any one again

 

[kai bengals]

It's called evolution.

Evolution doesn't have to come by chance, it can be invoked.