S.O.S Siamese Cat Refuses to Change!

[carolina]

I guess my main point is that a cat can live a healthy long life eating a diet of purina brand cat food. Many here seem to think not but have not offered any real evidence other than disgruntled customers. I'm waiting for someone to prove to me that before all this "natural" hype hit the market cats were suddenly dropping dead in families homes due to lower quality food. As I mentioned before..when I was a young kid we had a family outdoor cat that lived on nothing but Chef's Blend and died of old age.

Why then would that cat have needed to be fed a raw diet or a diet of NB, EVO, Wellness or any other?

I think it's just a case of people who follow blindly the trends of the day instead of using common sense. I mean, if it makes you feel like your doing your cat a favor by purchasing the most expensive cans of cat food filled with garden greens and cranberries go ahead  but I doubt it really makes any difference.

You said on your first post you needed help in walking AWAY from Purina, towards a healthier food.
Is that your true goal? Or do you want to open a discussion on what type of food is best for cats, kibbles, low cost kibbles, such as purina, vs premium brands, Canned, etc?
Because what I took from your post, was you need help with transitioning to a better quality of food - evidently, from that post, it is clear you know Purina One is not the best choice.
There is plenty to read on the subject - lots, and lots here on TCS, and lots of links we can post here on cat nutrition.
But the confusion remains, to me of what do you want out of this thread.

As for the below:

Why then would that cat have needed to be fed a raw diet or a diet of NB, EVO, Wellness or any other?

I think it's just a case of people who follow blindly the trends of the day instead of using common sense.

IMHO, no. Nothing to do with a trend, lots to do with knowledge. Cats are, no matter what one thinks, and this IS a FACT, obligate carnivores. If you want to use common sense, a diet as close to what an obligate carnivore would eat, would be using common sense, IMHO, and the closest to the optimum diet. That is a diet based on meat, organs and bone - a diet simulating what a cat would eat on its natural habitat, a prey.

LDG had posted great paper from a Harvard Grad that has a lot of information for you- it is long, but outstanding
Deconstructing the Regulatory Façade: Why Confused Consumers Feed their Pets
Ring Dings and Krispy Kremes

This is a long thread, but also with a great discussion on the topic http://www.thecatsite.com/t/239691/nutritionally-complete-assurances-for-our-pet-food

If you want some basics on feline nutrition, a good place to start is here: http://www.catinfo.org/

Another article on Nutrition: The Carnivore Connection to Nutrition in Cats


More Links - Diet/Health related:
Carnivore Digestion and Inflammatory Bowel Disease

Diet, Kidney Disease and the Urinary Tract

Diabetes and Obesity: Preventable Epidemics

Feline Urinary Tract Health

My Cat is Doing Just "Fine" on Dry Food

Now, they say the proof in in the pudding.... I won't bore you preaching a raw diet, and repeating myself to the others as they have heard this many times, I am sure.
But as much as yes, health IS related to genes, I have solid proof, in my house, that a species-appropriate diet is pretty much the best thing you can offer your pet, health-wise. IMHO, it is the pillar of good health.
I have a cat with IBD, Bugsy, who was in awful shape. He was never healthy in his life, really.... All along, his vets and I, blamed on his genes - I am sure it IS to be blamed on his genes. He had all issues you can think of. Stomatitis, UTIs, URIs, IBD, reactions to every drug under the sun. You name it, he had it - he was my lemon kitty, I used to call him.
He took a round of antibiotics for an UTI, and from that day on, his IBD got out of control - he had over 14 months of violent diarrhea - DAILY. Nothing worked. Many vet trips, all diets you can imagine, soooooo many meds, emergency trips..... We were Hopeless - Literally hopeless. He wasn't doing good at all. He was days from a very serious, big (let alone dangerous), exploratory surgery. But, no matter what, I wouldn't be able to treat him, as he had taken so many meds at that point, his liver couldn't take any more meds. I went to raw as my last resort......... and lo and behold. It worked.
From the day he went on Raw, he has been 100% good. one-hundred-percent.
No more meds, no more vet visits. No more diarrhea. He is SO good, in fact, that even his stomatitis medicine has been discontinued.
I am thrilled, his vet is thrilled, and he is, for the very first time in his life, HEALTHY.

Lucky, my other cat, used to throw up almost every day - I thought it was normal. She even had a blockage for hairballs...... Thought..... Well, she is a very long hair cat.
No more vomit, and her hairballs have reduced to almost none - I think she had one, since transitioning. She only throws up now when she goes too long without eating - that is my fault, not hers :doh3:

So, yes, I am sure genes play a great deal on their health..... And many, many live for many years on low quality carb heavy foods...... BUT, I am also certain, that an appropriate diet will make them thrive, and not just survive. Will allow them live the longest they can live, the healthiest they can be.

Sure, it would be much easier to toss some kibbles in a plate and forget about it...... MUCH easier.....
But now that they are eating raw, to me, it is MUCH easier to have them healthy.... To not be going to the vet every week, or in the middle of the night with Bugsy..... Or worrying the little time I am going to have with him, and that this little time he is in pain. That is Much easier, for sure.
It takes minutes to prepare their meals, and it has become a routine..... And IMHO totally, totally worth it.

That is my honest opinion and experience..... Not about trends.... Not at all.... Quite the contrary - I was one that was completely against raw - like you couldn't believe it! But Bugsy's health let me in a corner.... I tried. I did a LOT of reading - about the industry, about nutrition, about raw.... and all that information, combined with my own experience, left me with no doubt that I have made the absolute right choice.

Hope you can get on a healthier path with your baby - they DO have a mind of their own, and are very very stubborn on their convictions, that's for sure! :lol3:

 

[bluebo]

You said on your first post you needed help in walking AWAY from Purina, towards a healthier food.
Is that your true goal? Or do you want to open a discussion on what type of food is best for cats, kibbles, low cost kibbles, such as purina, vs premium brands, Canned, etc?
Because what I took from your post, was you need help with transitioning to a better quality of food - evidently, from that post, it is clear you know Purina One is not the best choice.
There is plenty to read on the subject - lots, and lots here on TCS, and lots of links we can post here on cat nutrition.
But the confusion remains, to me of what do you want out of this thread.
As for the below:
IMHO, no. Nothing to do with a trend, lots to do with knowledge. Cats are, no matter what one thinks, and this IS a FACT, obligate carnivores. If you want to use common sense, a diet as close to what an obligate carnivore would eat, would be using common sense, IMHO, and the closest to the optimum diet. That is a diet based on meat, organs and bone - a diet simulating what a cat would eat on its natural habitat, a prey.
LDG had posted great paper from a Harvard Grad that has a lot of information for you- it is long, but outstanding
Deconstructing the Regulatory Façade: Why Confused Consumers Feed their Pets
Ring Dings and Krispy Kremes
This is a long thread, but also with a great discussion on the topic http://www.thecatsite.com/t/239691/nutritionally-complete-assurances-for-our-pet-food
If you want some basics on feline nutrition, a good place to start is here: http://www.catinfo.org/
Another article on Nutrition: The Carnivore Connection to Nutrition in Cats

More Links - Diet/Health related:
Carnivore Digestion and Inflammatory Bowel Disease
Diet, Kidney Disease and the Urinary Tract

Diabetes and Obesity: Preventable Epidemics
Feline Urinary Tract Health

My Cat is Doing Just "Fine" on Dry Food
Now, they say the proof in in the pudding.... I won't bore you preaching a raw diet, and repeating myself to the others as they have heard this many times, I am sure.
But as much as yes, health IS related to genes, I have solid proof, in my house, that a species-appropriate diet is pretty much the best thing you can offer your pet, health-wise. IMHO, it is the pillar of good health.
I have a cat with IBD, Bugsy, who was in awful shape. He was never healthy in his life, really.... All along, his vets and I, blamed on his genes - I am sure it IS to be blamed on his genes. He had all issues you can think of. Stomatitis, UTIs, URIs, IBD, reactions to every drug under the sun. You name it, he had it - he was my lemon kitty, I used to call him.
He took a round of antibiotics for an UTI, and from that day on, his IBD got out of control - he had over 14 months of violent diarrhea - DAILY. Nothing worked. Many vet trips, all diets you can imagine, soooooo many meds, emergency trips..... We were Hopeless - Literally hopeless. He wasn't doing good at all. He was days from a very serious, big (let alone dangerous), exploratory surgery. But, no matter what, I wouldn't be able to treat him, as he had taken so many meds at that point, his liver couldn't take any more meds. I went to raw as my last resort......... and lo and behold. It worked.
From the day he went on Raw, he has been 100% good. one-hundred-percent.
No more meds, no more vet visits. No more diarrhea. He is SO good, in fact, that even his stomatitis medicine has been discontinued.
I am thrilled, his vet is thrilled, and he is, for the very first time in his life, HEALTHY.
Lucky, my other cat, used to throw up almost every day - I thought it was normal. She even had a blockage for hairballs...... Thought..... Well, she is a very long hair cat.
No more vomit, and her hairballs have reduced to almost none - I think she had one, since transitioning. She only throws up now when she goes too long without eating - that is my fault, not hers :doh3:
So, yes, I am sure genes play a great deal on their health..... And many, many live for many years on low quality carb heavy foods...... BUT, I am also certain, that an appropriate diet will make them thrive, and not just survive. Will allow them live the longest they can live, the healthiest they can be.
Sure, it would be much easier to toss some kibbles in a plate and forget about it...... MUCH easier.....
But now that they are eating raw, to me, it is MUCH easier to have them healthy.... To not be going to the vet every week, or in the middle of the night with Bugsy..... Or worrying the little time I am going to have with him, and that this little time he is in pain. That is Much easier, for sure.
It takes minutes to prepare their meals, and it has become a routine..... And IMHO totally, totally worth it.
That is my honest opinion and experience..... Not about trends.... Not at all.... Quite the contrary - I was one that was completely against raw - like you couldn't believe it! But Bugsy's health let me in a corner.... I tried. I did a LOT of reading - about the industry, about nutrition, about raw.... and all that information, combined with my own experience, left me with no doubt that I have made the absolute right choice.
Hope you can get on a healthier path with your baby - they DO have a mind of their own, and are very very stubborn on their convictions, that's for sure! :lol3:

Unfortunately sometimes a raw diet exacerbates specific health problems (mainly due to a cats fussy eating nature). I fed my can Frankenprey (PMR) and it made his severe constipation worse. He would only eat boney chicken cuts and refused to eat anything boneless (especially not red meats). The high bone content created worse constipation then before and threatened to impact his bowels , not only that there is not sufficient taurine levels in chicken (they require red meats for high taurine levels, particularly beef heart).
Raw is ideal but if you have a super fussy cat, switching to raw is almost impossible. I would rather a cat be on a quality canned then a nutritionally imbalanced raw diet.
Sometimes raw diets are pushed on people and these people don't do the appropriate research which does the cat more harm then good...
I can assure you that I'm considering putting my new kitten on the PMR diet. Not definite yet but I'm definitely pondering it!

 

[Willowy]

Also, if your childhood cat went outdoors, he DID eat a raw diet, of birds, mice, gophers, etc. Very different from an indoor cat who is fed nothing but the same dry kibble for years and never gets any fresh meat.

I am sort of curious about why you started this thread :dk:. And why you're defending foods that are mainly made up of corn, wheat, soy, etc. but bashing foods with garden greens and cranberries (many Purina foods contain those ingredients, too, I might add) Puzzling, to say the least.

 

[ldg]

Unfortunately sometimes a raw diet exacerbates specific health problems (mainly due to a cats fussy eating nature). I fed my can Frankenprey (PMR) and it made his severe constipation worse. He would only eat boney chicken cuts and refused to eat anything boneless (especially not red meats). The high bone content created worse constipation then before and threatened to impact his bowels , not only that there is not sufficient taurine levels in chicken (they require red meats for high taurine levels, particularly beef heart).
Raw is ideal but if you have a super fussy cat, switching to raw is almost impossible. I would rather a cat be on a quality canned then a nutritionally imbalanced raw diet.
Sometimes raw diets are pushed on people and these people don't do the appropriate research which does the cat more harm then good...
I can assure you that I'm considering putting my new kitten on the PMR diet. Not definite yet but I'm definitely pondering it!

You're quite right. Raw isn't for every kitty, and certainly not for every kitty owner.

But your comments in this regard are a little confusing, because you said in another post that you know you weren't feeding properly balanced frankenprey. So the issue with your kitty wasn't necessarily a raw diet, it was that it was fed improperly.

And yes, even the fussiest kitties can be transitioned, if you put the time and effort into it. Several threads document this.

Carolina's Lucky: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/239771/...lucky-bugsy-and-hope-to-raw-challenges-galore

Lauren's Perla: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/240608/a-new-raw-some-beginning-yup-another-one-lol

 

[ldg]

RAC44, you're asking questions, we're answering. :scratch: Not sure what the issue is, but none of us answering your questions is just making things up, we're providing links to information, references, and sources. Please, feel free to use them and learn. Or not. :dk:

But not knowing us, our backgrounds, or histories, please don't accuse any of us of providing uninformed opinions and just being "trend followers."

 

[carolina]

Unfortunately sometimes a raw diet exacerbates specific health problems (mainly due to a cats fussy eating nature). I fed my can Frankenprey (PMR) and it made his severe constipation worse. He would only eat boney chicken cuts and refused to eat anything boneless (especially not red meats). The high bone content created worse constipation then before and threatened to impact his bowels , not only that there is not sufficient taurine levels in chicken (they require red meats for high taurine levels, particularly beef heart).
Raw is ideal but if you have a super fussy cat, switching to raw is almost impossible. I would rather a cat be on a quality canned then a nutritionally imbalanced raw diet.
Sometimes raw diets are pushed on people and these people don't do the appropriate research which does the cat more harm then good...
I can assure you that I'm considering putting my new kitten on the PMR diet. Not definite yet but I'm definitely pondering it!

Well, when I say a Raw diet, I am saying a balanced raw diet. If you are feeding only chicken legs, or chicken wings, you are not feeding a balanced diet. The problem you had, was too much bone/calcium - yes, that will cause constipation for sure.
Like any other diet, a raw diet needs to be properly balanced to be good.
I do not feed bone, I supplement the Calcium, and I know exactly how much my cats eat.
As far as fussy cats...... I have the best of them. Lucky was a die-hard kibble addict that took 35 days to even lick a tiny piece of raw. She gave me a LOT of trouble transitioning to raw. So...... while transitioninig a fussy cat to raw might be hard, I would not say it is impossible. She is today on 100% raw, eating a balanced diet, and doing wonderful. Nope, she doesn't eat a lot of meats - she is still fussy - she only eats Turkey and Chicken, but I still manage to make it a properly balanced diet in all levels.
I agree that a raw diet needs to be done properly, and it is not the same as just opening a can of food, or tossing a handfull of kibbles on the plate. I did my share of reading on the subject - a lot of reading, a lot of discussing, that's for sure. But by no means, it is brain surgery either. The beginning can be hard and frustrating..... But once you get the hang of it, it is second nature..... Of course, you can always rely on commercial raw that already comes ready to go, and properly balanced. There is some great stuff out there. Rad Cat for example, is great stuff!

 

[mschauer]

Originally Posted by Carolina  

You said on your first post you needed help in walking AWAY from Purina, towards a healthier food.
Is that your true goal? Or do you want to open a discussion on what type of food is best for cats, kibbles, low cost kibbles, such as purina, vs premium brands, Canned, etc?
Because what I took from your post, was you need help with transitioning to a better quality of food - evidently, from that post, it is clear you know Purina One is not the best choice.
There is plenty to read on the subject - lots, and lots here on TCS, and lots of links we can post here on cat nutrition.
But the confusion remains, to me of what do you want out of this thread.
 

I started to post but after reading the other posts and your replies I'm  not sure what it is you are here for.   

Maybe you can clarify??

 

[ritz]

Original poster:  if you want to feed your cat a better quality food (however YOU define "better quality") yeah, one of the responders had this helpful hint:  do it sloowwwwlly.  Start with mixing one teaspoon of [wet] [dry] food into what you are currently feeding your cat.  When he/she eats the better stuff, then sloowwwlly increase the amount of the better quality food until your cat is eating 100% of the better quality food.

Principle applies to all areas, not just pet food--if you're trying to lose weight, do you go from eating 2,000 calories to 500 overnight; um, no, not if you want to succeed.

Also, because I have a special interest in advertising:

"Of course you would not let your child decide what is best for them to eat but that being said animals are not affected by pretty little pictures, colors, slogans, peer pressure and tv advertising either. They eat what they like and they walk away from what they don't".  Cats don't care if they are fed in a crystal glass, but the advertisements for pet food are geared towards PEOPLE, humans, not cats. (Why do you think there are so many attractive females in car commercials).   And manufacturers have spent millions and millions of dollars on pet food advertising; Purina and Science Diet have deep pockets--and excellent market researchers.

 

[bluebo]

You're quite right. Raw isn't for every kitty, and certainly not for every kitty owner.
But your comments in this regard are a little confusing, because you said in another post that you know you weren't feeding properly balanced frankenprey. So the issue with your kitty wasn't necessarily a raw diet, it was that it was fed improperly.
And yes, even the fussiest kitties can be transitioned, if you put the time and effort into it. Several threads document this.
Carolina's Lucky: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/239771/...lucky-bugsy-and-hope-to-raw-challenges-galore
Lauren's Perla: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/240608/a-new-raw-some-beginning-yup-another-one-lol

It wasn't fed improperly by choice I can assure you. I did all of the appropriate research on the diet and he would NOT eat red meat.... didn't matter how I attempted to feed it!
Yes I think MOST cats can transition eventually. Not all. There are always exceptions to every rule...
Even if I did all this painstaking waiting for him to eat a boneless piece of meat - he would still be suffering from constipation and possible impacting from all of the bone ingested. Counter productive IMO.

 

[bluebo]

Well, when I say a Raw diet, I am saying a balanced raw diet. If you are feeding only chicken legs, or chicken wings, you are not feeding a balanced diet. The problem you had, was too much bone/calcium - yes, that will cause constipation for sure.
Like any other diet, a raw diet needs to be properly balanced to be good.
I do not feed bone, I supplement the Calcium, and I know exactly how much my cats eat.
As far as fussy cats...... I have the best of them. Lucky was a die-hard kibble addict that took 35 days to even lick a tiny piece of raw. She gave me a LOT of trouble transitioning to raw. So...... while transitioninig a fussy cat to raw might be hard, I would not say it is impossible. She is today on 100% raw, eating a balanced diet, and doing wonderful. Nope, she doesn't eat a lot of meats - she is still fussy - she only eats Turkey and Chicken, but I still manage to make it a properly balanced diet in all levels.
I agree that a raw diet needs to be done properly, and it is not the same as just opening a can of food, or tossing a handfull of kibbles on the plate. I did my share of reading on the subject - a lot of reading, a lot of discussing, that's for sure. But by no means, it is brain surgery either. The beginning can be hard and frustrating..... But once you get the hang of it, it is second nature..... Of course, you can always rely on commercial raw that already comes ready to go, and properly balanced. There is some great stuff out there. Rad Cat for example, is great stuff!

Yes I agree with all of this. I attempted to feed a "balanced" raw diet and he would not cooperate no matter how hard I tried. He was an exception. The thing about cats is that you can't practice "tough love" on them- they cannot be without food for more then a few hours. Dogs are soooo much easier as they can be without food for a few days (depending on the size of dog-- mine is 40 pounds).
As I stated in a previous post, he would not eat boneless cuts. No matter how hard I pushed them, and I DID push them. So calcium supplements would not work unless he would eat boneless cuts- he won't.
As I stated earlier, a cat would do better on a canned diet then an imbalanced raw diet (which is all my cat would allow).

 

[bluebo]

OP- I would say why not just purchase some cheap canned food as opposed to cheap dry food? Does your cat not eat wet (you may have elaborated on this and if you did I'm sorry)? For dry, I have my cat on Healthwise- it is a grain inclusive food but there is no corn, soy or other high allergins (the grains in it are: brown rice, flaxseed, oatmeal and [regrettably] pea fiber). It is highly palatable to most cats and it is mid leve quality... certainly better then Purina One. I purchase it for almost $20 dollars per 5 pound bag (I'm in Canada). I also give him a small can of Fancy Feast (blech) a day but plan on switching it to a quality wet ASAP.

 

[carolina]

It wasn't fed improperly by choice I can assure you. I did all of the appropriate research on the diet and he would NOT eat red meat.... didn't matter how I attempted to feed it! .

Ok.... And? :dk: Lucky doens't eat red meat, doesn't eat hearts, never has, I doubt ever will.... her diet is still properly balanced....

Yes I think MOST cats can transition eventually. Not all. There are always exceptions to every rule... .

I respectifully disagree.... IMHO there is a point where most humans give up. It is understandable..... Some kitties have the power to drive you up the walls. I think Lucky took a good 4-5 months to be 100% transitioned, where she stopped having set backs/and having to be put back on kibbles for a couple of days or more (she never ate wet on her life, and was transitioned straight from kibbles). But IMHO if you are persistent and have a LOT, LOT of patience..... I truly don't see how a cat can't be transitioned. Many times during her transition I did think it was impossible, and that she was an exception to the rule..... But I stuck to the plan, and here we are. It is a simple concept, really.... Cats were not made to eat kibbles, or even canned. They were created to eat meat.

Even if I did all this painstaking waiting for him to eat a boneless piece of meat - he would still be suffering from constipation and possible impacting from all of the bone ingested. Counter productive IMO.

Well, the thing is, all that bone shouldn't had been fed in the first place. It was fed, he ate. Like with any diet, IMHO, a raw diet should be introduced slowly and properly from the beginning.... Little bits..... Add a little, watch, add a little more, watch..... But balanced, always balanced.
There is only so long you can offer an unbalanced raw diet without consequences..... 100% meat, or too much bones..... I am a believer in slow intros to balanced diets.
The very first task is convincing that meat is food. In your case, should had been that boneless meat is food..... Much like what I did with Lucky.....

 

[bluebo]

Ok.... And? :dk: Lucky doens't eat red meat, doesn't eat hearts, never has, I doubt ever will.... her diet is still properly balanced....
Im not so sure about this. I don't think that a raw diet can be 100% balanced if there isn't a consistent switch in proteins. I would say 4 being the minimum. Where did you find your factual evidence that only white meat is significant for a cats diet? I don't mean anecdotes, I mean facts... 2 proteins (IMO) isn't nearly enough. Even IF you do supplement with vit/mineral powders and HOPEFULLY taurine.
I respectifully disagree.... IMHO there is a point where most humans give up. It is understandable..... Some kitties have the power to drive you up the walls. I think Lucky took a good 4-5 months to be 100% transitioned, where she stopped having set backs/and having to be put back on kibbles for a couple of days or more (she never ate wet on her life, and was transitioned straight from kibbles). But IMHO if you are persistent and have a LOT, LOT of patience..... I truly don't see how a cat can't be transitioned. Many times during her transition I did think it was impossible, and that she was an exception to the rule..... But I stuck to the plan, and here we are. It is a simple concept, really.... Cats were not made to eat kibbles, or even canned. They were created to eat meat.
I realize cats werent meant to eat kibble but they have certainly adapted to it pretty well. Maybe it isn't their natural diet but if you want to go back to all things being natural.... them living inside with humans isn't natural, them being fed out of a dish without hunting isn't natural, them feeding grocery store meats (generally enhanced and pumped full of steroid and antibiotics) isn't natural, being fed without bone isn't natural-- need I say more?
I do think that a full PMR diet is appropriate for an obligate carnivore but if someone attempted it without proper education and messed up their cat... that would be sad thing.
Well, the thing is, all that bone shouldn't had been fed in the first place. It was fed, he ate. Like with any diet, IMHO, a raw diet should be introduced slowly and properly from the beginning.... Little bits..... Add a little, watch, add a little more, watch..... But balanced, always balanced.
Without bone it isn't balanced...?
There is only so long you can offer an unbalanced raw diet without consequences..... 100% meat, or too much bones..... I am a believer in slow intros to balanced diets.
The very first task is convincing that meat is food. In your case, should had been that boneless meat is food..... Much like what I did with Lucky....
I stated clearly that he refused to eat boneless meat of any kind..

It sounds like you are not feeding the raw properly. Red meats have essential taurine. Bone balances the phosphorus. Organs contain most of the essential vitamins/minerals.

 

[bluebo]

http://rawfed.com/myths/cats.html

 

[carolina]

http://rawfed.com/myths/cats.html

 

[carolina]

It sounds like you are not feeding the raw properly. Red meats have essential taurine. Bone balances the phosphorus. Organs contain most of the essential vitamins/minerals.

 

[bluebo]

I see..... So you read one site and that is the truth, the whole truth, and that's that? :dk:
Ok.... That's not the way I work :nod:
I agree that a variety is great - you should shoot for as many meats as possible..... But..... if a cat will not eat - meaning, will at the slightest piece of it, or refuse at any cost, I still believe that a diet made of a couple of proteins is better than a processed diet - any day.
EXACTLY. My cat will NOT eat boneless meat. I dont know why but he absolutely refuses.
To answer a couple of questions here as of why no bone - 1- Lucky has an issue with it. She can not digest bones. Yep, an actual medical issue. And for Bugsy, who has IBD, Human grade bone meal, and eggshell, is actually safer than bone, as it is more easily digested.
My cat also has IBD. He has constipation and bleeding complications because of it. Raw exacerbated that issue.
I have been to a holistic vet who has several books published on raw feeding actually, have discussed their diet in length, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with balancing their diet with Calcium long term. Nada. Not an issue. As long as the ratio is correct.

As for the organs - Hope's food is supplemented with Call of the Wild, which makes it 100% balanced and complete.
The others eat Freeze dried liver. One cube a day. Hope and Lucky both threw up with organs, making Bugsy the only cat who would eat it.
The 5% liver is the most important organ part - there are many many people who don't feed the other secreting organ - it is NOT absolutely vital, as you put it.
My cats do eat large chunks of meat - probably do little for their teeth, but some, definitely more than kibbles or canned.
The chewing of meat ABSOLUTELY does plenty for their teeth. It acts like dental floss as they have to work their jaws to chew it.
Raw for sure reduced the inflammation in general and considerably helped with Bugsy's Stomatitis issue - THAT is a fact. He will still have to have his regular dentals, as any diet, no matter what you are feeding, bone or no bone, will not reach under the gum line.
Who told you it wouldn't reach under the gum line? Ask my husband, he worked raised pigs for a living for a few years. What those animals go though *shakes head*...
Canned is better than dry for sure. You do have the moisture that you simply don't have with dry, no matter how "premium" that food is.
But IMHO it is still processed, and you still lack the control that raw gives to you.
If you have ever worked in the meat industry you have NO idea what "control" you have over the meat- even the seller claims it to be "farm raised". The only meat you will have control over will be animals that you raise, butcher and dress yourself...
It is really a matter of choice..... To me, for my cats, this is it. They have been the healthier they have ever been, no question about it, and I know why.
I love the fact that I have control over what they eat, and their food is as good as mine - actually who am I kidding, their food is better than mine!
It is not a matter of reading in a site anymore - I see the changes - I have them right here in front of me. I have the blood tests to prove. I have the vet in pure amazement. I have the lack of vet bills.
So......
My cat is 7-10 years old and has only gone to the vet for check ups. He is in perfect health and his teeth are surprisingly quite nice. He hasn't been in for any other reason then an annual check over. He was a stray. Then in the pound eating crap kibble. Then in my house eating (alternating) high quality dry/wet and mid level wet. He has had literally NO health issues. Sometimes it is pure genetics and it doesnt matter what you feed. Crap or raw they are going to pass away eventually oh and he's NEVER had a dental... not once in his life. Nor would I ever get one done for my cat unless absolutely vital (the risk of anesthetic is too frightening.

Responses in bold.

 

[bluebo]

Sorry................. But before you make that assessment, you should ask what I feed. Sounds like you don't know what I feed :nod:
Before going any further, Lucky is the only one who doesn't eat a variety of meats - Hope and Bugsy do. ALL of them eat a balanced diet.
Taurine - Check
Calcium - Check
Liver - Check
Omega3 - Check (you didn't list this, but yep, I do balance the O6 in the meat too.
Probiotics - check
No allergens, no artificial flavors, colors, conservatives, hard to digest ingredients that cause inflammation, no ingredients from China, all human grade fresh ingredients, all traceable sources, - check, check, check! Control over what they eat - another check.

You are correct. I don't know what you feed. Nor do you know what I feed I suppose:
Taurine- check
Calcium- check
Liver- most likely
Omega 3- yup I add fish body oils
Probiotics- sometimes
If I'm feeding Evo (which I'm working on switching right now)- no artificial favors, colors, *preservatives, only meat so shouldn't be too hard to digest, I dnt believe that the ingredients are from china but what do I know (btw a lot of grocery store meats are from several different countries), sources may or may not be traceable (neither are grocery store meats).
Once you know how the meat industry works you may question whether or not the things you are claiming a true. Unless... your raise, butcher and dress your own meats?

 

[carolina]

My cat also has IBD. He has constipation and bleeding complications because of it. Raw exacerbated that issue.

Again, we addressed this several times - an unbalanced raw diet, fed incorrectly, with too much Calcium, exacerbated this issue - NOT a raw diet.

The chewing of meat ABSOLUTELY does plenty for their teeth. It acts like dental floss as they have to work their jaws to chew it.

Not true.... unfortunately - it does very little. Gizzards might help a little, but very little. It does work their jaws much more than their teeth.

Who told you it wouldn't reach under the gum line?

Both my vets and their dentist - and trust me, they are very, very good. Only a procedure under anesthesia - a dental will be capable of a through cleaning under the gumline. I feed chunks of meat and wish very hard this was the case, but it is not.

If you have ever worked in the meat industry you have NO idea what "control" you have over the meat- even the seller claims it to be "farm raised". The only meat you will have control over will be animals that you raise, butcher and dress yourself...

While I don't have full control, I have a heck lot more control than if I were feeding commercial pet food. I am feeding human grade, USDA inspected meats, and I know the source of each one of them. With Canned and kibble..... there you are talking no control, IMHO, at least to me. With the diet I feed, I have as much control as possible. And that is perfectly fine on my book.

My cat is 7-10 years old and has only gone to the vet for check ups. He is in perfect health and his teeth are surprisingly quite nice. He hasn't been in for any other reason then an annual check over. He was a stray. Then in the pound eating crap kibble. Then in my house eating (alternating) high quality dry/wet and mid level wet. He has had literally NO health issues. Sometimes it is pure genetics and it doesnt matter what you feed. Crap or raw they are going to pass away eventually.

Good for you..... Good for him - but isn't this the cat who has IBD, constipation and bleeding?

 

[ldg]

Who told you it wouldn't reach under the gum line? Ask my husband, he worked raised pigs for a living for a few years. What those animals go though *shakes head*...

Actually, there are quite a few studies done on the dental aspects of kibble. Kibble does not provide any dental benefit unless specifically designed to do so. Cats do not "chew" kibble. Some may "crunch" it, but it shatters before it reaches the gum line (again, unless specifically designed not to). There are ... I think seven kibbles that provide some dental benefit.

I'm not sure what the pig vs. cat comparison is for? They have a completely different construction of their mouths and teeth. :dk: Pigs are omnivores, cats are carnivores. Cats' mouths are designed for ripping and tearing, and there are no digestive enzymes present in their saliva. Unlike with omnivores, digestion does not start in the mouth, it starts in the stomach. :dk:

http://www.fremontcosmetic-dentistry.com/patient-info/teeth-trivia/mammal-mandibles/

Pig:

Cat: