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Redirected cat aggression in my two males
- Thread starter whitney723
- Start Date
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #82
Update again: It's been a week since we started letting Vinny spend time in Leo's room without Leo in there. He's done very well. As I type, I'm in this room with him and he's laying on the bed with me. His eyes are closed, he's curled up, he looks calm, comfortable and he's purring. He went from spending a few minutes in here to spending an hour and a half in here (tonight was the first night). Leo's in the other room with my boyfriend while he plays video games.
I've also let Leo into Vincent's room while Vincent's been in the other room. Leo hasn't spent as much time as Vinny has in the opposite room, but I'm going to give him more time before we do a complete night room swap maybe next week. I'm hoping that this will get them both comfortable in each other's room and most importantly help them smell each other and realize neither are going anywhere.
I've given Vincent treats outside of Leo's room, but not too close to the door, then opened the door slightly and given Leo a treat or two. Vinny still seems a little scared/nervous, but he only backs up a bit to put some distance between him and Leo. I think this is ok, because he's not totally running off and he's not hissing or growling and he's not crouching and backing up. I'm thinking this might be good practice for when we get the screen door to put between them. I think this might be a couple weeks away though. We are still finishing up the shelving, it's more expensive than I thought it would be to make it look decent.I just don't want to move too fast in case it causes Vinny to be really upset.
Right now Vinny is able to go back into his room after Leo's been in there and have little to no reaction to Leo's scent, but as we allow Leo to spend more time in Vincent's space, that could change. I'm watching for reactions. Leo himself hasn't been acting different. He's pretty confident, he comes in Vinny's room slowly, but his tail is still held high. He even jumped up on the cat tree and when Vinny came back in the room after we put Leo up, he also got up there, but didn't seem to care too much.
I hope these things we're doing, swapping scents in the rooms, feeding them and given them treats to each other near each other is preparing them enough for their first real "meeting" behind the screen door. I have been thinking about how long those face to faces should be, and I think they should be very short at first, with play with Da Bird for each cat. Once or twice for a week, then adding more time to both sessions, if they go well. My goal is to try and have them more back to normal by July 4th when I'm supposed to have house guests. But if that doesn't happen, then I'm trying to not be upset about it. My house guests are cat lovers so they will understand if they have to share their room with Leo.
We may not allow them to be completely alone together when we're not here ever again. I am just not sure. I'm worried that something could happen when we're gone. Has anyone else had to keep cats separate when they aren't home for a long time? What about sleeping in our bedroom together? Should we just swap rooms rather than allow them to both sleep in our room together? I guess I'm just worried when they get up in the middle of the night that they'll get into another fight when we're asleep.
I've also let Leo into Vincent's room while Vincent's been in the other room. Leo hasn't spent as much time as Vinny has in the opposite room, but I'm going to give him more time before we do a complete night room swap maybe next week. I'm hoping that this will get them both comfortable in each other's room and most importantly help them smell each other and realize neither are going anywhere.
I've given Vincent treats outside of Leo's room, but not too close to the door, then opened the door slightly and given Leo a treat or two. Vinny still seems a little scared/nervous, but he only backs up a bit to put some distance between him and Leo. I think this is ok, because he's not totally running off and he's not hissing or growling and he's not crouching and backing up. I'm thinking this might be good practice for when we get the screen door to put between them. I think this might be a couple weeks away though. We are still finishing up the shelving, it's more expensive than I thought it would be to make it look decent.I just don't want to move too fast in case it causes Vinny to be really upset.
Right now Vinny is able to go back into his room after Leo's been in there and have little to no reaction to Leo's scent, but as we allow Leo to spend more time in Vincent's space, that could change. I'm watching for reactions. Leo himself hasn't been acting different. He's pretty confident, he comes in Vinny's room slowly, but his tail is still held high. He even jumped up on the cat tree and when Vinny came back in the room after we put Leo up, he also got up there, but didn't seem to care too much.
I hope these things we're doing, swapping scents in the rooms, feeding them and given them treats to each other near each other is preparing them enough for their first real "meeting" behind the screen door. I have been thinking about how long those face to faces should be, and I think they should be very short at first, with play with Da Bird for each cat. Once or twice for a week, then adding more time to both sessions, if they go well. My goal is to try and have them more back to normal by July 4th when I'm supposed to have house guests. But if that doesn't happen, then I'm trying to not be upset about it. My house guests are cat lovers so they will understand if they have to share their room with Leo.
We may not allow them to be completely alone together when we're not here ever again. I am just not sure. I'm worried that something could happen when we're gone. Has anyone else had to keep cats separate when they aren't home for a long time? What about sleeping in our bedroom together? Should we just swap rooms rather than allow them to both sleep in our room together? I guess I'm just worried when they get up in the middle of the night that they'll get into another fight when we're asleep.
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I love your wonderful updates!! I cannot wait for the day when Vinny and Leo remember their love for each other. You are making sure that happens!! Keep the updates coming!!
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #84
Update time again! We have had, what I'm going to call, a huge leap of success in Vinny/Leo world. It seemed small at first, but the more it happens the more I am thinking it's a huge success.
After 2 weeks of room swapping which included both Leo and Vinny spending time in each other's rooms starting at 10 minutes and increasing to over an hour once a day, I decided to try something new. I fed Vincent 5 feet away from Leo's door in the AM every day this week with Leo's door open and Leo eating or taking treats from me for sitting still at the door. Leo is very trainable and he knows what gets him the treats. He eats slower than Vincent so wet food (which for Leo is more or less a vehicle for me to give him his pro-biotics and L-Lysine treats for his immune system -- he used to get ear infections and URI's every couple months when I first got him until I started him on these things) isn't a big motivator for him. He doesn't seem to want to do anything but his own thing when he sees Vincent, so this has been such a success because of two things: 1). Leo doesn't want to beat up on a confident cat and 2). Vincent is just simply more confident.
Vincent's not really ready to have Leo set loose in the house, but he's starting to associate food/treats and that positiveness with Leo, I believe. Why? Because he doesn't automatically run away when I open the door to give Leo treats when he sees him. Now he cautiously looks up once in a while, but continues to eat. And when the mood strikes them, they've been known to play on their own with their paws under the door together. Vincent cried at Leo's door the other day at me when he heard Leo scratching to please be let out. The cry is similar to the "check my food bowl please" or "please pet me" cry so I think it was a pay attention to this cat who is scratching behind that door cry to me. I don't think Vincent was scared by it, because he ran over to the door and started his "attention" cry when he heard Leo scratching. He hasn't done that since before their big fight when I accidentally closed Leo in the laundry room when he got in the laundry basket and hid.
So maybe not a huge stride, but maybe in the cat world it is a huge stride. It at least makes me feel more positive about all the work we've been doing. We're going to keep it up for a while and see if we can try getting them to sleep in each other's room. I also snuck some of Vinny and Leo's dirty litter into each other's boxes too... neither seemed to have a problem using their boxes even with the pee smells of each other in there. I read that in a book, but was hesitant to try it until I made sure they'd be ok with each other's scent in their rooms.
So YAY! I feel less anxious and more positive that things will be normal again one day.
After 2 weeks of room swapping which included both Leo and Vinny spending time in each other's rooms starting at 10 minutes and increasing to over an hour once a day, I decided to try something new. I fed Vincent 5 feet away from Leo's door in the AM every day this week with Leo's door open and Leo eating or taking treats from me for sitting still at the door. Leo is very trainable and he knows what gets him the treats. He eats slower than Vincent so wet food (which for Leo is more or less a vehicle for me to give him his pro-biotics and L-Lysine treats for his immune system -- he used to get ear infections and URI's every couple months when I first got him until I started him on these things) isn't a big motivator for him. He doesn't seem to want to do anything but his own thing when he sees Vincent, so this has been such a success because of two things: 1). Leo doesn't want to beat up on a confident cat and 2). Vincent is just simply more confident.
Vincent's not really ready to have Leo set loose in the house, but he's starting to associate food/treats and that positiveness with Leo, I believe. Why? Because he doesn't automatically run away when I open the door to give Leo treats when he sees him. Now he cautiously looks up once in a while, but continues to eat. And when the mood strikes them, they've been known to play on their own with their paws under the door together. Vincent cried at Leo's door the other day at me when he heard Leo scratching to please be let out. The cry is similar to the "check my food bowl please" or "please pet me" cry so I think it was a pay attention to this cat who is scratching behind that door cry to me. I don't think Vincent was scared by it, because he ran over to the door and started his "attention" cry when he heard Leo scratching. He hasn't done that since before their big fight when I accidentally closed Leo in the laundry room when he got in the laundry basket and hid.
So maybe not a huge stride, but maybe in the cat world it is a huge stride. It at least makes me feel more positive about all the work we've been doing. We're going to keep it up for a while and see if we can try getting them to sleep in each other's room. I also snuck some of Vinny and Leo's dirty litter into each other's boxes too... neither seemed to have a problem using their boxes even with the pee smells of each other in there. I read that in a book, but was hesitant to try it until I made sure they'd be ok with each other's scent in their rooms.
So YAY! I feel less anxious and more positive that things will be normal again one day.
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Awesome update!!! The quoted sentence says it all!!! Much kudos to you for taking such care and patience with Leo and Vinny!!!
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #86
Update: cats have been eating supervised near each other, taking treats and generally doing well with very short frequent supervised visits to each other's rooms and have gone up to several hours supervised in each other's rooms.
We hit a snag in the screen door arena. There are none cheap that fit our frames so we are trying to go for 2 baby gates now.
Haven't finished the vertical space because we are painting so it's easier to put the shelves up once we get the painting done.
Otherwise both cats are doing fine. I am thinking more and more that a harness and leash might be a more appropriate way to eventually reintroduce the boys once we are ready to have them actually be officially in the same room together. I just need to be able to control Leo better. Thinking about getting one now to practice with him.
Seeing Vincent not be quite as nervous and actually kind of nonchalant with Leo is great. Leo however is super excited to see Vincent, enough that it makes me nervous. I think the leash would be helpful.
We hit a snag in the screen door arena. There are none cheap that fit our frames so we are trying to go for 2 baby gates now.
Haven't finished the vertical space because we are painting so it's easier to put the shelves up once we get the painting done.
Otherwise both cats are doing fine. I am thinking more and more that a harness and leash might be a more appropriate way to eventually reintroduce the boys once we are ready to have them actually be officially in the same room together. I just need to be able to control Leo better. Thinking about getting one now to practice with him.
Seeing Vincent not be quite as nervous and actually kind of nonchalant with Leo is great. Leo however is super excited to see Vincent, enough that it makes me nervous. I think the leash would be helpful.
Go, Vinnie and Leo! These are great updates. I admire your patience and tenacity in getting your boys back together.
Another great update. I look forward to hearing about Leo and Vinny.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #89
I bought two baby gates today from Amazon to put up. I think they arrive Friday, so that starts the new situation in our house. I fed the cats today over by Vincent's door this AM and while they do fine when they are both eating, Leo still kind of looks like he wants to stalk Vincent. It does make Vincent act nervous/scared so I really think it's time for the gates. I am trying to come up with some kind of plan/schedule for their structured play time around the gate so that Leo stops acting like he wants to stalk Vinny and Vinny stops acting like he is going to get his butt kicked around Leo. It might be Leo that ends up getting the calming collar when it's all said in done. I am feeling like if he didn't act a fool around Vinny then things would be better. But I need to observe a little more how they do behind the gates, first.
Vincent will go and spend time at Leo's door, they will both take treats with the door open as long as I am in between them and giving them both equal attention, but I have not tried it without myself in the middle to control. I really think the gates will help us safely give up some of that control a little and get them more used to each other.
I think we're just used to this living situation now, but at least both cats are figuring out that neither one of them are not going anywhere.
Thanks for the encouragement!
Vincent will go and spend time at Leo's door, they will both take treats with the door open as long as I am in between them and giving them both equal attention, but I have not tried it without myself in the middle to control. I really think the gates will help us safely give up some of that control a little and get them more used to each other.
I think we're just used to this living situation now, but at least both cats are figuring out that neither one of them are not going anywhere.
Thanks for the encouragement!
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #90
Here's the new set up. I let vinny out to play for about 20 minutes. I can't really reach the door to close it with this going on so I have a big cardboard piece one of the gates came in to put against the door when I think vinnys had enough.
He did hiss at Leo once. He got brave and went up to the baby gate. I put the cardboard up but he got his nose between it and the gate a little and hissed. Leo did not hiss back. And the good news is, Vincent didn't get puffed up. His ears were back and tail was down but he calmed down in literally seconds. I had a fishing line toy to distract him.
I really hope this is a good sign. Is hissing ok if there's no growling?
And what if there's ever any growling? Should I just remove them and try again later? I am trying to start sessions off much slower than I did before since now they are more face to face. I guess I can have a special snack for them. They don't usually get wet food in evenings.
Any other suggestions?
He did hiss at Leo once. He got brave and went up to the baby gate. I put the cardboard up but he got his nose between it and the gate a little and hissed. Leo did not hiss back. And the good news is, Vincent didn't get puffed up. His ears were back and tail was down but he calmed down in literally seconds. I had a fishing line toy to distract him.
I really hope this is a good sign. Is hissing ok if there's no growling?
And what if there's ever any growling? Should I just remove them and try again later? I am trying to start sessions off much slower than I did before since now they are more face to face. I guess I can have a special snack for them. They don't usually get wet food in evenings.
Any other suggestions?
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You know, we have two siblings, brother and sister, who love each other but still hiss, growl and even fight each other sometimes. You've probably learned by now how serious the tension is getting by the intensity of the growling/hissing, telling you when they've had enough.
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- #92
Update: we have been allowing Vincent and Leo to see each other through the baby gates. It's not been perfect but it's also not been bad. They've done some hissing but I think I've been nipping it in the bud some.
There's two scenarios: one is when both me and my boyfriend are home one of us plays with each cat on either sides of the gate. No treats involved only play with their favorite toy da bird. They do get distracted and want to stare a little but because when we first started this we used a light sheet over the gate I think they got used to each other easier. Now I can do it without the sheet which leads me to scenario 2.
Sometimes when my bf and I work opposite schedules I have to do the gate thing alone. I accomplish this by first playing with Leo with da bird to wear him out a little. Then I put up the gate and open vinnys door. I'll still play with Leo and put some treats out for vinny on his side of the gate so he'll be tempted to come over.
What happens is sometimes they want to stare each other down. I keep a squirt bottle that we used to teach them to stop getting up on the counters. It has taught Leo a lot. If he starts the stare I only have to hold the bottle up or tap it with my fingers and he will quit. Sometimes he even walks away and today he lay down in the hallway far enough from vinnys door that he started cleaning himself. I immediately gave him treats.
Vinny will play and roll over and get treats too if he stayed brave. He sometimes gets overwhelmed and then wants to walk away or go under the bed. I let him but usually he'll come out again soon. Especially once Leo stops paying attention to him.
How is this sounding to everyone? It's taken us since March to get here so 3 months and I still don't think it's time to have them out together even supervised. But that's ok. I just wanted any kind of consensus that this seems like a progression.
I do have calming collars for them. Vincent does great with his, Leo does great as long as there are no mirrors around. His made him so high he howled and puffed up at his own reflection once after he had it on for an hour. We limit his to under and hour but vinny could wear his all day, he loves it. Not real sure how it'd make them be with each other though but it does seem to calm them.
There's two scenarios: one is when both me and my boyfriend are home one of us plays with each cat on either sides of the gate. No treats involved only play with their favorite toy da bird. They do get distracted and want to stare a little but because when we first started this we used a light sheet over the gate I think they got used to each other easier. Now I can do it without the sheet which leads me to scenario 2.
Sometimes when my bf and I work opposite schedules I have to do the gate thing alone. I accomplish this by first playing with Leo with da bird to wear him out a little. Then I put up the gate and open vinnys door. I'll still play with Leo and put some treats out for vinny on his side of the gate so he'll be tempted to come over.
What happens is sometimes they want to stare each other down. I keep a squirt bottle that we used to teach them to stop getting up on the counters. It has taught Leo a lot. If he starts the stare I only have to hold the bottle up or tap it with my fingers and he will quit. Sometimes he even walks away and today he lay down in the hallway far enough from vinnys door that he started cleaning himself. I immediately gave him treats.
Vinny will play and roll over and get treats too if he stayed brave. He sometimes gets overwhelmed and then wants to walk away or go under the bed. I let him but usually he'll come out again soon. Especially once Leo stops paying attention to him.
How is this sounding to everyone? It's taken us since March to get here so 3 months and I still don't think it's time to have them out together even supervised. But that's ok. I just wanted any kind of consensus that this seems like a progression.
I do have calming collars for them. Vincent does great with his, Leo does great as long as there are no mirrors around. His made him so high he howled and puffed up at his own reflection once after he had it on for an hour. We limit his to under and hour but vinny could wear his all day, he loves it. Not real sure how it'd make them be with each other though but it does seem to calm them.
You continue to make great progress. It is slow progress, but it seems steady. Have you tried the liquid Composure Max? I am still using it on my cat Marvin. When the boys were having problems around the holidays, both received it, but then Marvin (the more aggressive) received it 2x a day. I whittled him down to once a day and this spring I tried stopping it. He still needed it. I just mix between 1/4-1/2 t. in his wet food. Day time is usually never a problem, but evening and night time stirs him up. So he gets it at his evening meal only. It is more expensive than the treats, but it lasts so long.
Do you have a next step in mind? I think I remember that you were going to try a screen door and it wouldn't fit? I also used a large dog cage for awhile. Only one of my cats liked to go inside so I wasn't able to have them take turns. I would cover the cage on 3 sides with a sheet so it wasn't so overwhelming. I made sure he to have plain cooked chicken available to reward them both. I started doing 3 very short ( less than 5 minute) sessions each day and worked up to longer sessions and also removing a side of the sheet. I also could play string with them.
The next step was to put one of the cats in a harness and allow them both to be out. I also divided up the house. I put a cat tree in the front of the house for my cat that likes to be up. He was happy to hang out there in the mornings for hours. Then in the back of the house in our den ( where I work) I kept Marvin with me. I put up some baby gates too. Even though they could jump the gates, I could hear them landing and know to get up and check. If it all became too stressful, I put one of the cats away for awhile.
Eventually I found that my fear and stress were being projected onto the cats. I was so afraid of a fight. I was so tense each time they were out together. Once I learned to trust that it was ok the cats completely settled. If there was a spat, the instigator was put in his room for a bit. This sent a very loud and clear message that worked well.
I would suggest that you keep moving forward. If something goes wrong, just back up a bit.
Do you have a next step in mind? I think I remember that you were going to try a screen door and it wouldn't fit? I also used a large dog cage for awhile. Only one of my cats liked to go inside so I wasn't able to have them take turns. I would cover the cage on 3 sides with a sheet so it wasn't so overwhelming. I made sure he to have plain cooked chicken available to reward them both. I started doing 3 very short ( less than 5 minute) sessions each day and worked up to longer sessions and also removing a side of the sheet. I also could play string with them.
The next step was to put one of the cats in a harness and allow them both to be out. I also divided up the house. I put a cat tree in the front of the house for my cat that likes to be up. He was happy to hang out there in the mornings for hours. Then in the back of the house in our den ( where I work) I kept Marvin with me. I put up some baby gates too. Even though they could jump the gates, I could hear them landing and know to get up and check. If it all became too stressful, I put one of the cats away for awhile.
Eventually I found that my fear and stress were being projected onto the cats. I was so afraid of a fight. I was so tense each time they were out together. Once I learned to trust that it was ok the cats completely settled. If there was a spat, the instigator was put in his room for a bit. This sent a very loud and clear message that worked well.
I would suggest that you keep moving forward. If something goes wrong, just back up a bit.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #94
I haven't used the liquid composure, but I've tried the Jackson Galaxy drops. They seemed to work some. The calming collars worked too. I was thinking about trying rescue remedy to see if it worked any better than the Jackson Galaxy drops. Nothing seems to work better than good ole fashioned time.
I think my next step might be to get a harness/leash for Leo. I was going to try teaching him to be on the lead while in the main room of our house and see if I could control him when Vincent is out on his own at least for a few minutes. Or maybe I should start with a crate first. It is a little frustrating trying to figure out creative ways to move forward.
I was thinking maybe leashing Leo, having them start by eating their morning meals together in the main part of the house, with Leo leashed, then when done, leading him back to his room. Then see how that goes for a while. If it goes well, try shorter time frames where he's on the leash with Vincent out.
I think we might be needing to start having them alternate spending the nights in each other's rooms, but I think I'd like to take Vincent's own litterbox in Leo's room if I do that, because I don't want him to not want to use the litterbox if the only one in there is Leo's. Does that sound like a plan?
I think my next step might be to get a harness/leash for Leo. I was going to try teaching him to be on the lead while in the main room of our house and see if I could control him when Vincent is out on his own at least for a few minutes. Or maybe I should start with a crate first. It is a little frustrating trying to figure out creative ways to move forward.
I was thinking maybe leashing Leo, having them start by eating their morning meals together in the main part of the house, with Leo leashed, then when done, leading him back to his room. Then see how that goes for a while. If it goes well, try shorter time frames where he's on the leash with Vincent out.
I think we might be needing to start having them alternate spending the nights in each other's rooms, but I think I'd like to take Vincent's own litterbox in Leo's room if I do that, because I don't want him to not want to use the litterbox if the only one in there is Leo's. Does that sound like a plan?
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- #95
UPDATE: We now have "open door" feeding time and between the crack in the door play time where they can clearly see each other and it's going well. I bought a harness at a local shelter's thrift shop, but it was too small for Leo so I am not ready to try leashing him until I can find one that comfortably fits him. The one thing that is a little testy is that Vincent clearly wants to come into Leo's room, but then he gets nervous and will hiss and run off. Leo usually doesn't do anything, but once in a while he'll get down off the bed or something like he wants to charge Vincent if Vinny hisses at him first. Maybe I'm going about this the wrong way, perhaps I should be doing this in a room other than one of the cat's rooms? Perhaps our great room because they can be on opposite sides of the room at the same time. It's been 4 months of slow progression, and I had a week where I couldn't do anything much except supervised meals together because we had a house guest.
Do we think that perhaps Vincent and Leo are "too matched" in temperment to try to get a long better? They are both too alpha and can't figure out well who is in charge?
Do we think that perhaps Vincent and Leo are "too matched" in temperment to try to get a long better? They are both too alpha and can't figure out well who is in charge?
I found that when working with my two difficult boys that it was best to work with them in a neutral space. We tried using one of the cats room and it did not work well. The cat felt territorial about his space and did not like having my other cat in the room for very long. I used our great room as it was larger and easier to keep them apart. We did play time with our two in the great room. My son helped and we each took a cat. It took some adjustments but they both enjoyed the play and the reward treat after.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #97
Update time: it's been a few months, but now we're to the point where my boys can eat their breakfast together in the AM (with minimal swiping from Leo), and then we have structured treat and play time outside of their rooms.
I have to keep both their rooms closed off during this time because Leo tenses up if Vinny goes toward his room and sometimes chases after him and Vinny, while he doesn't actually try to fight Leo, also tenses up. By tense up: for Leo it means he chases Vinny out of there and for Vinny it means his tail gets bottle-like. There is a little swiping, maybe a hiss or two, but nothing more. I've since just decided to keep the doors closed to avoid it while we work on room swapping daily as well. They are getting used to be in each other's rooms, but we've been hesitant to have a complete over night in each other's rooms so far because of Vinny's bladder issues. We are afraid he might not want to use the litterbox, so when we do try this, we'll probably swap Leo's litter box for Vinny's.
That being said, we are still getting Leo trying to assert himself as top cat. He'll find whatever he can find to sit higher than Vinny. Vinny may walk past him, doesn't try to de-throne him or anything, and Leo swipes at him. Usually no hissing, but sometimes a brief chase, but they typically respond to me saying NO or a water bottle squirt (or Leo, rather). I'm trying to get Leo to just be ok with having Vinny be in the same room and sharing because "good things" happen (aka food/treats/play). I wouldn't say the swiping/chasing is "bad," but I also wouldn't say it's time to have them in the room without our supervision or for longer than an hour at this point. This tolerance level is still very new. I don't want to push it.
I do have a small dog cage that I've made into a little cave for them. I rotate who goes into it and who spends time outside in the great room. They both do fine in there because it's dog size, it's rather large and they have a comfy bed and scratch post in there and I put a sheet around it so it's only open from the front. They both actually like to go in there and lay down on their own because we keep it open all the time except during our sessions with both cats.
Leo and Vinny tend to play with each other during these sessions. They will bat at each other, chirp and lick each other in the face from the cage. I am counting this as "good" signs. They will choose to lay next to each other during these sessions as well. I'm also considering this good. I am hoping these sessions will end up going longer and longer until they are both more tolerant of each other outside of the cage sessions in our great room.
There has been little to no growling or hissing, some chasing, some batting, but otherwise, the response to NO or stop works for both cats when I think they are not acting tolerant.
I think at this point we're doing all we can and time will be the only thing that helps them get to the tolerance stage we'd prefer them to be at. After all I've read and all the advice I've been given by everyone on here, it seems as thought time and patience is what I need to give them.
Is there anything else anyone else would suggest at this stage? We're having structured feedings in the AM together in the great room, structured play and treats in the great room in the evenings (short sessions, 10-20 mins tops right now) and structured room scent/swaps for up to a couple hours at a time.
I use feliway diffusers, jackson galaxy drops (which I haven't used in over 2 months now, but seemed to be great the beginning when things were pretty heavy) and da bird seems to be their most favorite toy and works wonders for re-direction. I have baby gates that I used, but have graduated to the crate in the living room. The baby gates are now less useful, but I may now start using them to keep Vinny out of Leo's room since that seems to be a source of contention.
I think my biggest fear may be that Leo takes over everything we have put in the house for them to use as their environmental enrichment and doesn't' want to ever share with Vinny. He seems to just hate to share ANYTHING.
I have to keep both their rooms closed off during this time because Leo tenses up if Vinny goes toward his room and sometimes chases after him and Vinny, while he doesn't actually try to fight Leo, also tenses up. By tense up: for Leo it means he chases Vinny out of there and for Vinny it means his tail gets bottle-like. There is a little swiping, maybe a hiss or two, but nothing more. I've since just decided to keep the doors closed to avoid it while we work on room swapping daily as well. They are getting used to be in each other's rooms, but we've been hesitant to have a complete over night in each other's rooms so far because of Vinny's bladder issues. We are afraid he might not want to use the litterbox, so when we do try this, we'll probably swap Leo's litter box for Vinny's.
That being said, we are still getting Leo trying to assert himself as top cat. He'll find whatever he can find to sit higher than Vinny. Vinny may walk past him, doesn't try to de-throne him or anything, and Leo swipes at him. Usually no hissing, but sometimes a brief chase, but they typically respond to me saying NO or a water bottle squirt (or Leo, rather). I'm trying to get Leo to just be ok with having Vinny be in the same room and sharing because "good things" happen (aka food/treats/play). I wouldn't say the swiping/chasing is "bad," but I also wouldn't say it's time to have them in the room without our supervision or for longer than an hour at this point. This tolerance level is still very new. I don't want to push it.
I do have a small dog cage that I've made into a little cave for them. I rotate who goes into it and who spends time outside in the great room. They both do fine in there because it's dog size, it's rather large and they have a comfy bed and scratch post in there and I put a sheet around it so it's only open from the front. They both actually like to go in there and lay down on their own because we keep it open all the time except during our sessions with both cats.
Leo and Vinny tend to play with each other during these sessions. They will bat at each other, chirp and lick each other in the face from the cage. I am counting this as "good" signs. They will choose to lay next to each other during these sessions as well. I'm also considering this good. I am hoping these sessions will end up going longer and longer until they are both more tolerant of each other outside of the cage sessions in our great room.
There has been little to no growling or hissing, some chasing, some batting, but otherwise, the response to NO or stop works for both cats when I think they are not acting tolerant.
I think at this point we're doing all we can and time will be the only thing that helps them get to the tolerance stage we'd prefer them to be at. After all I've read and all the advice I've been given by everyone on here, it seems as thought time and patience is what I need to give them.
Is there anything else anyone else would suggest at this stage? We're having structured feedings in the AM together in the great room, structured play and treats in the great room in the evenings (short sessions, 10-20 mins tops right now) and structured room scent/swaps for up to a couple hours at a time.
I use feliway diffusers, jackson galaxy drops (which I haven't used in over 2 months now, but seemed to be great the beginning when things were pretty heavy) and da bird seems to be their most favorite toy and works wonders for re-direction. I have baby gates that I used, but have graduated to the crate in the living room. The baby gates are now less useful, but I may now start using them to keep Vinny out of Leo's room since that seems to be a source of contention.
I think my biggest fear may be that Leo takes over everything we have put in the house for them to use as their environmental enrichment and doesn't' want to ever share with Vinny. He seems to just hate to share ANYTHING.
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It does seem that the boys continue to make progress although it is slow. The territory issue could be a concern. Vinny needs to have territory that he calls his own. With my two, Marvin was the more aggressive and tried to take over all of the territory. We had to work hard to help them discover their own. They each had their own rooms which were helpful in times of stress. In their rooms were also litter boxes, cat trees and toys. On our first level, it was harder to work out territory, but it eventually got worked out. Jake prefers the front of the house with the cat tree and Marvin prefers the back of the house with the small perch. Other spaces in the house were neutral.
I also did the large dog cage covered on 3 sides with a sheet. I would play with them that way too. I also would get a long shoe string (2 tied together) and put part of it in the crate and the rest outside and gently pull. The boys loved it and interacted this way together. After a successful play period, I would reward with something yummy, usually chicken.
Marvin responded really well to liquid composure Max. It was his staple and in his food every day, 2x a day. It really helped to keep him calm.
After the dog cage, I decided it was time to let them out together whenever I was home. Some days it was great as they would each stay in their own territory. When one was on the move, I was there to supervise. The stairs were always a problem. I put feliways in all of the hot spots and also used the spray. It really helped. Gradually with supervision, the boys learned to tolerate each other. There might be chasing, but that would be it. It stopped at the chase. If I did hear a growl, hiss, yowl or fur flying, time out was given. It was always Marvin being the aggressor. He would be put in his room for 30-60 minutes. Then we would try again. If he was aggressive again, he was in the room for the remainder of the day. This worked very well.
Thanks for the update!
I also did the large dog cage covered on 3 sides with a sheet. I would play with them that way too. I also would get a long shoe string (2 tied together) and put part of it in the crate and the rest outside and gently pull. The boys loved it and interacted this way together. After a successful play period, I would reward with something yummy, usually chicken.
Marvin responded really well to liquid composure Max. It was his staple and in his food every day, 2x a day. It really helped to keep him calm.
After the dog cage, I decided it was time to let them out together whenever I was home. Some days it was great as they would each stay in their own territory. When one was on the move, I was there to supervise. The stairs were always a problem. I put feliways in all of the hot spots and also used the spray. It really helped. Gradually with supervision, the boys learned to tolerate each other. There might be chasing, but that would be it. It stopped at the chase. If I did hear a growl, hiss, yowl or fur flying, time out was given. It was always Marvin being the aggressor. He would be put in his room for 30-60 minutes. Then we would try again. If he was aggressive again, he was in the room for the remainder of the day. This worked very well.
Thanks for the update!
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #99
As I write this, Leo (our more territorial kitty) is up on top of the bookshelf where we placed an old carpet square we were able to get at a home improvement store just by asking of they had some samples they wanted to give away. There's a cat scratcher nearby that he can jump on and then jump to the bookshelf from. Vincent is not into jumping on anything really so he's snoozing on the floor nearby. I'm "reading" in the chair which is code for actually paying attention without them knowing it.
They are out in the AM together now, we also have play time before their meal. Then at night too. We have started rotating which cat gets to spend time in the main part of the house every day while we are gone to work. They seem to like that and it seems to be good for them to smell each other in the main part of the house more.
There's a little chase, a little bit of power grooming but it seems like it's progressing more and more over the weeks positively.
It's been almost 6 months.., long, slow but worthwhile
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #100
I should mention, Leo figured out how to open his door and Vincent's door! We now have to lock them if one is being left in. Smarties pants!
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