Question about my Siamese girls color

mybabies

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When I got Kotton, close to 3 years ago, she was a seal point. THEN within a year she got darker in her body. Next year she got darker still and her seal points went to chocolate! NOW what is left of her cream is going dark - on her ruff and around her throat.

Will she end up Chocolate color or what? She is about 7 or 8!
 

goldenkitty45

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Seal point siamese have a tendency to darken with age. Most of the other color points will too - seals and blues are the worse. Your point color still should be seal but the body coat constrast may cause the seal to look chocolate.

She still may be even darker with age and appear almost solid. I've seen this happen with 10-15 yr old siamese.
 

hopehacker

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My Siamese girl, SunLee is a Chocolate Point. She's not very dark at all. My larger Old Style Siamese, Shane is a Seal Point, and he's very dark all over.
 
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mybabies

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Originally Posted by HopeHacker

My Siamese girl, SunLee is a Chocolate Point. She's not very dark at all. My larger Old Style Siamese, Shane is a Seal Point, and he's very dark all over.
Kotti looks like Shane's sister! How old is Shane?
 

gayef

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Siamese carry a gene known as the himalayan gene - it is what makes them pointed cats. The himalayan gene is heat sensitive. That is to say, where they lose heat, they darken. Where they retain heat, they stay light.
 
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mybabies

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Originally Posted by gayef

Siamese carry a gene known as the himalayan gene - it is what makes them pointed cats. The himalayan gene is heat sensitive. That is to say, where they lose heat, they darken. Where they retain heat, they stay light.
Can you explain more? Kotton started going dark on her tummy then on her sides and then her back and now her head and ruff!

With the exception of her sides, if I lift her hair up and look at the roots, the roots are light!
 

gayef

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Originally Posted by MyBabies

Can you explain more? Kotton started going dark on her tummy then on her sides and then her back and now her head and ruff!

With the exception of her sides, if I lift her hair up and look at the roots, the roots are light!
That sounds like the normal progression of a Seal Point. When you lift the fur up and look at the "roots", that is where she is warmest (next to her body) so it is correct that this fur is lighter as it holds more heat than the outer layer of fur.

If you were to put a sweater on her (my cats would rip me to shreds if I so much as nurtured the thought *grin*) she would lighten up considerably in the body area.
 

goldenkitty45

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It also has to do the the genetic lines. Siamese in the 50's/60's retained very nice contrast between point color (almost white bodies and seal points) These were not just kittens - these were cats that were under 10 yrs old! I've seen pictures of them. Not only did they have the contrast but they also had the nice slender body type too.

Not sure of which cattery it was (I think Singa), but one breeder strived to retain the contrast and it showed. However, she didn't want to keep inbreeding and had to outcross from time to time. And because of the other lines, the contast on coats began to suffer. The breeders started concentrating more on type then on keeping the body coat/point contrast.

And as a result you now have excellant type but I've seen some lines who are pretty dark by the time they are 2 yrs old....some as young as 1 yr old and no longer have the nice "white/cream" body with dark points.
 

hopehacker

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I have a question. SunLee is a Chocolate Point, and she is very light. Even her tail looks almost like a light beige and so to the points on her feet. Her face is a little darker, and her entire body is a light creme colour. She's 4 years old, and I don't think she is ever going to get dark. Shane, the Seal Point, was a light beige when he was young, but by the time he was 4, he was getting pretty dark. Now, he's only fairly light around his neck. My RB cat Snoopy was called a Blue Point, but I'm thinking he was more of a Lavender Point, because he stayed light all of his 20 years of life. My question is, why would Seal Points be more affected by heating, than the other points?
 
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mybabies

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Sun Lee is SO elegant looking! Just to look at her you can see Royalty in her!
 

goldenkitty45

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I honestly think it has little to do with the heating - more of the genetics and various lines. Seals and blues darken most. Chocolate, Red, Lilac, Cream points darken the least. Seals and blue points are the most popular colors. If the other colors were as popular you'd be suffering the same coat/point contrast as it would be overbreeding.

If I was to pick a point color, I'd go for the chocolate points as they keep the body coat a lot more white/cream then other point colors.
 

hopehacker

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Originally Posted by MyBabies

Sun Lee is SO elegant looking! Just to look at her you can see Royalty in her!
Thank you. She's a modern Siamese, as opposed to the Applehead, which Shane is. I think that gives her the graceful elegant lines. However, I do call her my little Princess, because she's such a delicate little thing.
 

gayef

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Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

Heat has nothing to do with point color.
This is true, heat has absolutely nothing to do with what color the kitten will be - however, once born, heat most certainly does have everything to do with how dark the points will be ... if a cat lives a cooler environment, she ~will~ be darker and if a cat lives in a warmer enviroment, she ~will~ be lighter.

~gf~
 

sharky

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Originally Posted by gayef

This is true, heat has absolutely nothing to do with what color the kitten will be - however, once born, heat most certainly does have everything to do with how dark the points will be ... if a cat lives a cooler environment, she ~will~ be darker and if a cat lives in a warmer enviroment, she ~will~ be lighter.

~gf~

Glad someone who knows said something..lol.. My two siamese were very dark but they lived in PHoenix
 

hopehacker

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But my question is, why does my Chocolate Point remain light, while my Seal Point has gotten so dark. I live in Los Angeles, which on the whole is not a cold climate, althugh not a desert, either.
 

goldenkitty45

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I still say it has more to do with the lines the cat came from. There are some lines that the body in any point color will stay light (ideal) and others will darken the coat - really has little to do with the cat keeping in cold/hot temp.

Read the article - the Singa cats prove its the pedigree - not the temperature! And like I said earlier; seals tend to get darker more then any other point color.

The early Singa lines had white coats and seal points - and stayed that way for a long time - like over 10 yrs old! I've seen her cats and the pictures in the yearbook article - its a shame that the pictures were not included and only the text.
 
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mybabies

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Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

Here's an interesting article explaining type and point color and the Siamese. Heat has nothing to do with point color.


http://www.catshows.us/YearbookArticles/yearbook79.html
I have read that article before BUT I have also read articles that say the ORIGINAL Siamese was the apple headed one and that the Oriental type was created. THEN I have one that says BOTH were at the same time but only a few of the finer types were allowed out of the country.

Where I LIVE it is HOT (up to 106 or 108 in the shade for weeks) in the summer but down to the high 30ies in the winter. Kotton's POINTS have faded to a chocolate color and her cream color is now dark brown and even her ruff is browning.


THIS photo of her was taken a few months ago and where she is cream color there she is now getting brown.

OK HERE she is shortly after I adopted her:
 

gayef

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Originally Posted by sharky


Glad someone who knows said something..lol.. My two siamese were very dark but they lived in PHoenix
My guess is that your two Siamese were, in fact, Seal Points. Seal Points do darken with age. When they are young, their bodies are a pale beige but darken on the hips, the saddle, the back while the belly and the under chin area of the neck and chest normally stay lighter.

Originally Posted by HopeHacker

But my question is, why does my Chocolate Point remain light, while my Seal Point has gotten so dark. I live in Los Angeles, which on the whole is not a cold climate, althugh not a desert, either.
Because Chocolate Points are supposed to stay lighter through the body than Seal Points. That is just their genetics. As I commented to Sharky above, Seal Points will darken with age and they will darken even further if their environment is cooler - their environment does play a part, no matter what you may read, but genetics plays a part as well.

Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

I still say it has more to do with the lines the cat came from. There are some lines that the body in any point color will stay light (ideal) and others will darken the coat - really has little to do with the cat keeping in cold/hot temp.
Have you never observed "fever coat" in a pointed cat? When a pointed cat is running a fever, the higher temperature lightens the coat color - I've seen this for myself and know it to be true. I once had an older Seal Point female who had bad gums. She was constantly getting infections and I always knew when she had one due to the fact that the very dark Seal Point fur in her facial mask would lighten significantly. She also liked to lay on a heating pad but only on her left side ... and wouldn't you know it? The color on her left hip and leg faded. If the coat color in a pointed cat isn't temperature-sensitive, then please explain to me why this happened.

You are absolutely correct in saying that genetics does play a large part, but when discussing coat and point color in cats carrying the himalayan gene, temperature cannot be ruled out.
 
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