Question about iodine

[Tuckamukk3]

I was wrong, there is just a link to the page on kefir, which is:

https://www.foodfurlife.com/kefir-for-pets.html#

And then here is some info about bone broth and links to directions on how to make it:

Bone Broth for IBD in Cats

 

[Dakera]

Thanks for the ^ explanation. I think my dad might have a capable calculator in his desk, so I'll try to figure out those calculations.

I do the same, Ive just been feeding my cats proportionately what they eat, however, Ive been using the per 1000 kcal recommendations, which apparently are geared more towards high energy requirements.

You brought up two things that I haven't figured out how to calculate in a scientific way. The first, Omega 3 I've just been following a recipe recommendation on that (which is 4000 mg per my recipe amount which is 93 oz.) I've always only counted the EPA plus DHA towards that number, but my brand is fairly high EPA + DHA at 750mg per 1000mg fish oil. I also read somewhere years ago that Dr Pierson recommended 300 mg EPA + DHA per cat, so I used to actually give that much, which was a bit more. But I don't actually KNOW how to CALCULATE it in a diet.

The second thing is Ca I only know how to calculate recommended percentages, which I aim at 7%. But for the life of me I haven't been able to figure out how that translates into Ca. I've tried researching how much calcium and phosphorus is in bone, but ultimately have not been able to find that information. I can figure it out for eggshell powder but I haven't been using that at all lately, as Ive read that the connective tissues in bone are important for gut health.

This page is the page that I found so informative on probiotics for cats:

Prebiotics & Probiotics for Cats: Healing Inflammation and gut dysbiosis

The same website also has information on making kefir for cats and bone broth. I ended up buying the Jarrow brand S. Boulardii plus MOS and the NOW brand Probiotic Defense which has a lower amount of probiotics but includes fermented grasses. So far I'm only using the Jarrow one on one of my cats who recently developed a severe chicken egg intolerance, started needing more calories, and just generally seemed to be getting a more sensitive stomach. Also, one time when he threw up from the chicken egg he vomitted up what looked like a puddle of pus (!). That's what sent me reading about ibd and gut issues.

Sorry for the late reply, it was a bit crazy the past few days.
Thanks for the links, I'll look into them! I've read a lot about bone broth but I feel unable to do it because of energy costs…

A sudden chicken egg allergy? Did it happen just once and then you never attempted to give him egg again? You specify "chicken", so I suppose you've tried with other species eggs and there was a better tolerance? Could it simply be that the particular egg was contaminated with salmonella? Where I live, eggs are sold at room temperature, so what I do is keep them in the fridge for a couple of days. I also cook the white. I want to believe that these practices help avoid salmonella, which can really be an issue.

So, about EPA/DHA and Omega 6: kittens need higher DHA in their diet than adult cats, but other than that, the commonly sold fish oil has adequate EPA/DHA balance. What is important is the ratio of total omega 6 to total omega 3. AND, also, because the long-chain fatty acids are very unstable and tend to oxidize in a chain reaction, you need to add vit E. The larger the batch, the more E. For my 2kg batch, I add 3 vit E of 400IU each. A good hint is, if you see food discoloration between the moment you prepared the food and frozen it, and the moment you served it, it means you need to upp vit E next time.

Omega 6 is important for a wide range of things, like the immune response to inflammations, heart and circulatory health, and cell proliferation. It is critical for getting an inflammatory response in order to trigger healing mechanisms when the organism is attacked by different kinds of pathogens. Because it constricts the blood vessels, it tends to increase the blood pressure, contrary to omega 3 which dilates vessels and leads to a decrease in blood pressure.
Omega 3 is important for immunosuppression: when the body has had its immune response after an inflammation, the omega 3 kicks in to stop the whole thing. Therefore it is used to ease allergic responses and auto-immune diseases. However too much would be detrimental as the body would have no immune response to pathogens. It also fluidifies the blood, contrary to n6, which means that you can bleed to death if you have too much of it. It also inhibits pain transmission.
So you see that the most important is really about having a balance between both.
The way you measure the ratio is simply by dividing the total omega 6 by the total omega 3. For example, in my recipe, I have a total of 1,9 gr n6 per daily serving and a total of 0,49gr n3. 1,9:0,49=3,8. My ratio of n6:n3 is 3,8, which falls within the optimal range set by the NRC (2:1 to 4:1). Cronometer gives the totals so you don't have to check someplace else.
There is an article here where it is all explained in some more detail:

Role of Dietary Fatty Acids in Dogs & Cats

The type of fatty acids fed to a patient, as well as the total amount of fatty acids in the diet, have the additional potential to improve or impair health.

todaysveterinarypractice.com

About the calcium to phosphorus ratio, I'm not sure if cronometer allows you to put bone in a recipe? You can also create a custom ingredient, and find all the data of each one of them on the food data central (here is a list of all raw chicken: FoodData Central). There is this calculator that could help: Raw Feeding Calculators For Cats & Dogs and I also found a couple of articles that state the amount of Ca : P per type of bone, but they don't give their sources (like, how do they know???). The articles in question are 1: What you need to know about balancing the calcium to phosphorus ratio in a raw diet? and 2: Grateful Pet Inc.. A more scientific article (haven't read it yet): https://www.nstproceeding.com/index.php/nuscientech/article/download/484/462

I'll check your links! It is all super interesting! And sorry again for the late reply.

 

[Tuckamukk3]

Sorry for the late reply, it was a bit crazy the past few days.
Thanks for the links, I'll look into them! I've read a lot about bone broth but I feel unable to do it because of energy costs…

A sudden chicken egg allergy? Did it happen just once and then you never attempted to give him egg again? You specify "chicken", so I suppose you've tried with other species eggs and there was a better tolerance? Could it simply be that the particular egg was contaminated with salmonella? Where I live, eggs are sold at room temperature, so what I do is keep them in the fridge for a couple of days. I also cook the white. I want to believe that these practices help avoid salmonella, which can really be an issue.

So, about EPA/DHA and Omega 6: kittens need higher DHA in their diet than adult cats, but other than that, the commonly sold fish oil has adequate EPA/DHA balance. What is important is the ratio of total omega 6 to total omega 3. AND, also, because the long-chain fatty acids are very unstable and tend to oxidize in a chain reaction, you need to add vit E. The larger the batch, the more E. For my 2kg batch, I add 3 vit E of 400IU each. A good hint is, if you see food discoloration between the moment you prepared the food and frozen it, and the moment you served it, it means you need to upp vit E next time.

Omega 6 is important for a wide range of things, like the immune response to inflammations, heart and circulatory health, and cell proliferation. It is critical for getting an inflammatory response in order to trigger healing mechanisms when the organism is attacked by different kinds of pathogens. Because it constricts the blood vessels, it tends to increase the blood pressure, contrary to omega 3 which dilates vessels and leads to a decrease in blood pressure.
Omega 3 is important for immunosuppression: when the body has had its immune response after an inflammation, the omega 3 kicks in to stop the whole thing. Therefore it is used to ease allergic responses and auto-immune diseases. However too much would be detrimental as the body would have no immune response to pathogens. It also fluidifies the blood, contrary to n6, which means that you can bleed to death if you have too much of it. It also inhibits pain transmission.
So you see that the most important is really about having a balance between both.
The way you measure the ratio is simply by dividing the total omega 6 by the total omega 3. For example, in my recipe, I have a total of 1,9 gr n6 per daily serving and a total of 0,49gr n3. 1,9:0,49=3,8. My ratio of n6:n3 is 3,8, which falls within the optimal range set by the NRC (2:1 to 4:1). Cronometer gives the totals so you don't have to check someplace else.
There is an article here where it is all explained in some more detail:

http://[URL][URL][URL]https://today...ion/role-of-dietary-fatty-acids-in-dogs-cats/

[/URL][/URL][/URL]

About the calcium to phosphorus ratio, I'm not sure if cronometer allows you to put bone in a recipe? You can also create a custom ingredient, and find all the data of each one of them on the food data central (here is a list of all raw chicken: FoodData Central). There is this calculator that could help: Raw Feeding Calculators For Cats & Dogs and I also found a couple of articles that state the amount of Ca : P per type of bone, but they don't give their sources (like, how do they know???). The articles in question are 1: What you need to know about balancing the calcium to phosphorus ratio in a raw diet? and 2: Grateful Pet Inc.. A more scientific article (haven't read it yet): https://www.nstproceeding.com/index.php/nuscientech/article/download/484/462

I'll check your links! It is all super interesting! And sorry again for the late reply.

Hello! No need for apologies at all! I want to thank you SO much for all the time you've taken and all the info you have given me. Just get back when you have time or feel like it

The reason I called Monkey's chicken egg intolerance sudden is because he had been consuming egg yolk for a few years, though most of that time it was in dried form, in Alnutrin supplements. Around wintertime I switched to a homemade formula (I was using the feline-nutrition.org recipe) and was using fresh egg yolk instead of powdered but I wouldn't think that would make a difference. After a few months on that recipe he started vomiting somewhat frequently, maybe once a week or two, although it was small in volume and didnt contain food. He also was needing more calories, but if I fed him more than a certain amount, after a week or two of increased food it would make the vomitting much more frequent. So I was confused, took him to the vet, and his bloodwork, fecal and urinalysis came back mostly normal (I've increased water intake since as urine was slightly concentrated, and his cholesterol was slightly high). Shortly afterwards he got unbelievably sick one night, puking huge volumes, and I assumed there was something in his food that was setting it off. So after about a month of taking most everything out of his diet and adding it back in, he got incredibly sick again a day or two after I first gave him 1/4 chicken egg yolk again. Since then he has been fine on everything else, and I have been able to increase his caloric intake without it setting him off as before. I do have access to quail eggs and eventually I will try them out with him, but I have been afraid to so yet because I'm paranoid of setting him off again. Btw, lately my method has been to freeze the yolks, then let them thaw slightly, then 1/4 them and store the quarters in the freezer for single dosing.

Thank you for the explanation of how to calculate Omega 3! I will have to check this on my recipes. About the range of Omega 3, I didn't even know the NRC set one so I'm glad you quoted that - I only have this little downloadable version of the NRC recommended allowances but it doesn't list any specifics about fatty acids.
Regarding the Vitamin E, I read an article years ago that stated cats and dogs need between 1 - 2 IU per lb body weight if you supplement with Omega 3 (sorry, American here! I think that's 0.45 kg). I've always done about 2 IU per lb, so for my cats this is about 400 IU for a week's worth of food (1 93 ounce batch lasts about a week. Your amount is much higher, and I have seen some recipes with high amounts of Vit. E. The AAFCO does list some specifics though I found the wording a little hard to understand. They list Adult Maintenance Minimum of Vit. E at 10 IU per 1000 kcal, then explain to "add 10 IU Vit E above the minimum concentration for each gram of fish oil per kg of diet." Though that doesn't give any specifics about the amount of Omega 3 in said "gram" of fish oil, which can vary a lot. That direction just generally confused me! I will also check out the link that you sent on fatty acids.

I checked out the links of Calcium and Phosphorus you sent, and actually that scientific download on chicken and duck bone I have, and have been puzzling over for some time. For one thing they list "phosphate" instead of "phosphorus" - I don't really understand the difference, however the Calcium to Phosphate ratios listed in that paper are 3.7:1 and 4.1:1 for chicken bone and duck bone respectively, where elsewhere I have read that Calcium to Phosphorus ratio for bone is about 2:1 (on one of the pages you sent me I think it said it was 1.8:1 for a variety of different bones, but of course was unsourced). Also in that study, I haven't been able to figure out if the mineral percentages are taking into account moisture loss from the bones. Another page I found that has thrown a wrench into my understanding is this: Calcium / RetrieverPro which states that chicken bones specifically have about 7% moisture, 30% calcium, and a 2:1 ratio of calcium to phosphorus (again, unsourced!). So assuming these claims from retrieverpro.com, calculating first for moisture loss, then for calcium and phosphorus I plugged the values in for one of my recipes that has 7% chicken bone and got a ratio of 1.7:1! I then lowered the bone amount to 5% and still got about 1.6:1. That makes me a little skeptical of this information - it's hard for me to believe that chicken bone leads to such a high Ca ratio even at 5% (unless I calculated wrong, but I double checked). And according to that Indonesian study, it looks like duck bone has even more calcium than chicken bone (I also use duck bone). I just don't know what to make of this information. My cats poop doesn't look white or anything, and I've been using about 7% for the last few months. These claims make me kind of concerned though, in case some bones really are super high in Calcium. Maybe I could reach out to those websites and ask where they got their info...

 

[Tuckamukk3]

Think I finally found something definitive about Ca and P in chicken bones! This study lists the amount of both minerals, relative to both WET weight and dry weight. It's the first analysis I've found that clearly establishes relevance to wet weight. The data is also clearly layed out in tables. It lists values for male and female chickens up to 40 days old (I read elsewhere that older "layer" hens have higher Ca: P ratios).


Chemical composition of bone tissue in broiler chickens intended for slaughter https://www.agriculturejournals.cz/publicFiles/08103.pdf

 

[Dakera]

Think I finally found something definitive about Ca and P in chicken bones! This study lists the amount of both minerals, relative to both WET weight and dry weight. It's the first analysis I've found that clearly establishes relevance to wet weight. The data is also clearly layed out in tables. It lists values for male and female chickens up to 40 days old (I read elsewhere that older "layer" hens have higher Ca: P ratios).


Chemical composition of bone tissue in broiler chickens intended for slaughter https://www.agriculturejournals.cz/publicFiles/08103.pdf

That's amazing! Thanks for sharing!

 

[Tuckamukk3]

That's amazing! Thanks for sharing!

Trouble is I'm still getting super high values for both Ca and P using this data, which is still hard for me to believe. I'm wondering if I might be able to get a pet nutritionist to shed some light on this if I asked them about it.

 

[Dakera]

Hello! No need for apologies at all! I want to thank you SO much for all the time you've taken and all the info you have given me. Just get back when you have time or feel like it

The reason I called Monkey's chicken egg intolerance sudden is because he had been consuming egg yolk for a few years, though most of that time it was in dried form, in Alnutrin supplements. Around wintertime I switched to a homemade formula (I was using the feline-nutrition.org recipe) and was using fresh egg yolk instead of powdered but I wouldn't think that would make a difference. After a few months on that recipe he started vomiting somewhat frequently, maybe once a week or two, although it was small in volume and didnt contain food. He also was needing more calories, but if I fed him more than a certain amount, after a week or two of increased food it would make the vomitting much more frequent. So I was confused, took him to the vet, and his bloodwork, fecal and urinalysis came back mostly normal (I've increased water intake since as urine was slightly concentrated, and his cholesterol was slightly high). Shortly afterwards he got unbelievably sick one night, puking huge volumes, and I assumed there was something in his food that was setting it off. So after about a month of taking most everything out of his diet and adding it back in, he got incredibly sick again a day or two after I first gave him 1/4 chicken egg yolk again. Since then he has been fine on everything else, and I have been able to increase his caloric intake without it setting him off as before. I do have access to quail eggs and eventually I will try them out with him, but I have been afraid to so yet because I'm paranoid of setting him off again. Btw, lately my method has been to freeze the yolks, then let them thaw slightly, then 1/4 them and store the quarters in the freezer for single dosing.

Thank you for the explanation of how to calculate Omega 3! I will have to check this on my recipes. About the range of Omega 3, I didn't even know the NRC set one so I'm glad you quoted that - I only have this little downloadable version of the NRC recommended allowances but it doesn't list any specifics about fatty acids.
Regarding the Vitamin E, I read an article years ago that stated cats and dogs need between 1 - 2 IU per lb body weight if you supplement with Omega 3 (sorry, American here! I think that's 0.45 kg). I've always done about 2 IU per lb, so for my cats this is about 400 IU for a week's worth of food (1 93 ounce batch lasts about a week. Your amount is much higher, and I have seen some recipes with high amounts of Vit. E. The AAFCO does list some specifics though I found the wording a little hard to understand. They list Adult Maintenance Minimum of Vit. E at 10 IU per 1000 kcal, then explain to "add 10 IU Vit E above the minimum concentration for each gram of fish oil per kg of diet." Though that doesn't give any specifics about the amount of Omega 3 in said "gram" of fish oil, which can vary a lot. That direction just generally confused me! I will also check out the link that you sent on fatty acids.

I checked out the links of Calcium and Phosphorus you sent, and actually that scientific download on chicken and duck bone I have, and have been puzzling over for some time. For one thing they list "phosphate" instead of "phosphorus" - I don't really understand the difference, however the Calcium to Phosphate ratios listed in that paper are 3.7:1 and 4.1:1 for chicken bone and duck bone respectively, where elsewhere I have read that Calcium to Phosphorus ratio for bone is about 2:1 (on one of the pages you sent me I think it said it was 1.8:1 for a variety of different bones, but of course was unsourced). Also in that study, I haven't been able to figure out if the mineral percentages are taking into account moisture loss from the bones. Another page I found that has thrown a wrench into my understanding is this: Calcium / RetrieverPro which states that chicken bones specifically have about 7% moisture, 30% calcium, and a 2:1 ratio of calcium to phosphorus (again, unsourced!). So assuming these claims from retrieverpro.com, calculating first for moisture loss, then for calcium and phosphorus I plugged the values in for one of my recipes that has 7% chicken bone and got a ratio of 1.7:1! I then lowered the bone amount to 5% and still got about 1.6:1. That makes me a little skeptical of this information - it's hard for me to believe that chicken bone leads to such a high Ca ratio even at 5% (unless I calculated wrong, but I double checked). And according to that Indonesian study, it looks like duck bone has even more calcium than chicken bone (I also use duck bone). I just don't know what to make of this information. My cats poop doesn't look white or anything, and I've been using about 7% for the last few months. These claims make me kind of concerned though, in case some bones really are super high in Calcium. Maybe I could reach out to those websites and ask where they got their info...

Actually bone does contain a lot of calcium. It is necessary in any diet because otherwise, we won't be providing enough of it. But it is really difficult to measure in any exact manner how much calcium we're giving with bones…
I'm finishing my course soon, and I hope that it will be explained! I'll let you know then, promise!

Now about the vitamin E: it serves 3 purposes, 1) to stop the chain reaction of oxidation of the fatty acids 2) to preserve large batches of food and 3) to provide for the organism. This means that the more fatty acids the diet contains, the more vit E we need. The bigger the batch is, the more vit E we need. And we don't want to forget our cats' need for it either!
Fortunately, there is no toxicity if fed in excess. It might have the opposite effect and act as an oxidant (which you will notice in food discoloration and/or rancid odor), and it can hurt vit K status, but no safe upper limit is defined.
When we supplement, it's best to avoid the dl-alpha tocopherol. If possible, it's good to give a mixture of tocopherols and tocotrienols (Vit E consists of 8 different vitaminers, the one commonly talked about in supplementation is the d-alpha tocopherol, but there have been some studies that suggest that the others might be beneficial as well). I found one in iherb, as soon as my current vit E is finished I'll purchase it (it's from Jarrow).

So sorry for Monkey! I guess that you're right, then! Kudos for all the care! My cats gobble the egg yolk, it's their favorite treat! (and I watch in a disgusted wonder, as an egg-allergic person!)

 

[Dakera]

Trouble is I'm still getting super high values for both Ca and P using this data, which is still hard for me to believe. I'm wondering if I might be able to get a pet nutritionist to shed some light on this if I asked them about it.

Yes, me too, and also super high protein altogether. It's because all these charts have been made with the ped-food manufacturers in mind, and not for crazy people juggling with feline nutrition, I guess!
The protein recommended allowance for my 6kg cat is 16,6g daily, and he gets 31,3g. But there really is no need to worry: cats are carnivorous and as such they can manage with up to 40% of protein in their daily intake. Plus, numerous studies show that elderly cats need more dietary protein to meet their need: as we age, all organisms lose muscle mass. And there is also an issue with the absorption of amino acids, which tends to sink with age. The official daily allowance of calcium/ phosphorus for the same cat is 0.23g/0.21, and he gets 0.34/0.28. As long as they have no renal problems, the most important is to keep the balance between both. If they do have renal issues then everything changes.

 

[Dakera]

Reaching out to get help from a pet nutritionist might be a good idea!
The one I'm doing the course is more focused on canine nutrition but you could always ask I guess? It's at the HOME website.

 

[Dakera]

I just saw that she has a bone calculator… Raw Meaty Bone Calculator

 

[Tuckamukk3]

Oh, so you're taking a course - that explains why you know so much! Definitely if you learn anything about the high calcium and phosphorus in bone let me know (or maybe it's just certain species of bone?).

I've never heard a lot of this information about vitamin E before so I'll definitely need to look into that more. I do use a mixed tocopheral though (I think it has 4, it's from Solgar) because Alnutrin had something on their page about mixed tocopherals being more effective, especially noting d - gamma tocopheral. I always used to add extra V. E to that supplement mix because there wasn't that much included. I'll check out that Jarrow one.

I checked out the bone calcular. I Think you sent me a link to another one too previously; they do match my own calculations. I've always been able to calculate percentages without any problem. Originally I just started wondering what that translated to in terms of numbers of Ca and P which led me down this obsession to find out... and ultimately more confusion lol!

So sorry for Monkey! I guess that you're right, then! Kudos for all the care! My cats gobble the egg yolk, it's their favorite treat! (and I watch in a disgusted wonder, as an egg-allergic person!)

Haha! Yeah, my boys gobble up everything happily. My little girl is a bit different- ever since I started grinding less and leaving more in chunks she's been looking at me like, "this is so much more work than it used to be."