Question about iodine

[Tuckamukk3]

Hi, I have a question about eggs and iodine. About a month ago one of my cats started having severe issues with something in his food. He had a major puking attack and got very sick, then recovered as I started an elimination diet of sorts. Long story short, one month and another attack later, I strongly suspect eggs are an issue (hopefully THE issue). So I'm eliminating eggs from at least Monkey's diet.
My question is I've read online that there is iodine in egg yolks. I can't find the exact amount only in the yolk but it looks like there is about 25 mcg of iodine in one egg and "most" of it is in the yolk (so I'm assuming at least 20 or so mcg appx.) My recipe uses 4 egg yolks, so if I'm removing those do I need to add extra lite salt (which is what I use for iodine). Is there anything else I need to add?

 

[Furballsmom]

Hi!
Would there be anything on Dr Pierson's site? Or one of these?

Feline Nutrition – IBDKitties

Feline IBD

 

[Tuckamukk3]

I have read just a little on IBD, and yes, it does sound like it may have become a case of IBD. Though I understand that food allergies or intolerance can be one cause of it. He ate Alnutrin with egg powder for years with no problems (that I could tell), and when I switched to a homemade recipe he was fine for awhile, then had some mild semi frequent vomiting that didn't seem to bother him. He got bloodwork, fecal, urinalysis at the vet, all pretty much fine. And THEN he got sick. I'm still in the process of figuring out what he can and can't tolerate, which can be a little confusing because he sometimes reacts differently to the same protein. Maybe he just doesnt like to eat whatever protein he was eating when he got sick. Eggs have been a common denominator though. That was the last thing I tried adding back in to balance his diet. 1.5 - 2 days after eating 1/4 of an egg yolk was when he got sick the second time. There's a slight chance it could be fish oil but he had been back on that for over a week, so....?

Because of the egg issue with Monkey I'm also afraid to use the eggshell powder that I have. I think I have figured out how to use non egg calcium carbonate powder (most brands seem to tell you how much elemental calcium is in each dose), but may have questions about that too. Right now he seems to be doing ok on pork and quail, but financially I can't keep that up (quail is expensive!). At the moment I was just afraid to give him chicken and needed a bone source in a hurry.

I imagine this is going to be an ongoing process to figure out. In the meantime I'm just trying to balance his, and my other two cats diets as much as possible. Im still fairly new to a homemade recipe and researching one thing has led to another, and another....

 

[iPappy]

I am stumped on that iodine issue. Does anyone know if Dr. Pierson does consultations? Might be the best person to ask.
Tuckamukk3 I hope things get better for you! Where are you sourcing your pork and quail? Has he ever had quail or duck eggs, vs. chicken eggs?

 

[Furballsmom]

I just happened to think about whether a veterinarian nutritionist might be able to help?

 

[Tuckamukk3]

I believe she does but that is definitely something I can't afford. I am actually not able to work yet (long narrative here). As it is I save all my "gift" money for vet visits but have to be really frugal about it. I could try just emailing her though and see if she replies. I suppose I could also try emailing feline-nutrition.org though I don't know if they'll respond (I tried emailing them once before a long time ago, and they didn't).
My pork I source at various grocery stores, though Im thinking about doing the whole 'freeze for 3 weeks first' thing in the future. Id like to do pork for all my 3 cats. And I just found a source for pig heart, kidney, and liver (which I know is low in copper and I think lower in vitamin A but higher in iron I believe so might be good for rotation with beef) at a small meat market. The quail I actually found at Food 4 Less cheaper than the Mexican stores ($6.99 in case anyone is interested).
In the future I'd like to try quail or duck eggs if I can source them but not for a long while. Really don't want to rock the boat on him there.

 

[Tuckamukk3]

I just happened to think about whether a veterinarian nutritionist might be able to help?

I'm sure they could, if I could afford one lol! Thanks for the suggestion though

 

[Furballsmom]

Could your veterinarian connect you with one through their clinic where it might be less expensive?

 

[Tuckamukk3]

Could your veterinarian connect you with one through their clinic where it might be less expensive?

I have no idea. I could ask I suppose, if it really comes down to it.
I found the following quote from Dr. Pierson's page:

"For cats with gastrointestinal issues or any signs of allergies, I would suggest omitting the eggs when first introducing this diet. They can always be added in later as a single change to the diet. That way, any negative reaction can be monitored. If your cat does not like the diet, try omitting the eggs. Some cats just do not like eggs. I consider the eggs to be an optional ingredient."

I remembered her calling eggs "optional". But appx 80 - 100 mcg difference in iodine seems like a big difference to me. Iodine is one thing I get extra nervous about screwing with. I've been trying to find out exactly how much iodine is in 8.4g of lite salt for comparison (which is the amount in my recipe). I found a product data sheet for Morton "Table Iodized Salt, bags" that lists the iodine content as 100 mcg per 1.5g of salt. I assume this is for regular table salt though. I actually emailed Morton and asked since I was so frustrated I coudnt find out the iodine content of Lite Salt - does anybody know by chance?

Anyway, I suppose I will try emailing Dr. Pierson and see if I get a response. Maybe, since it's just a simple question really....

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

All I can tell you is that TOO MUCH iodine can cause hyperthyroidism, so maybe that's why Dr. Pierson says eggs are optional ?

I remembers years ago I was using Wysong's Call of the Wild supplement vs Alnutrin until someone pointed out that it was very high in iodine. I stopped using it immediately.

 

[Tuckamukk3]

Definitely. And too little is a problem too. For comparison, the Alnutrin for meat and bone, for the same amount of food I usually make (which is just under 6lbs) has a minimum guaranteed analysis of about .48 mg or 480 mcg. So the iodine in 4 egg yolks should account for about 15 - 20% of that. I actually haven't looked up the range of iodine a cat needs daily so I should do that. At least the cat in question eats a lot for his size so that probably gives me some margin of safety.

 

[Tuckamukk3]

Just want to correct something I said offhand: it looks like pork liver is actually very high in Vitamin A... I must have had the parameter on 1 oz instead of 100g or 4oz like I usually do.

 

[Dakera]

Hi there!
About Iodine, the NRC states that a healthy 4 kg cat needs 350µg/1000kcal iodine. So if you can figure out how much kcal your cat needs daily, you can then also evaluate how much iodine he needs. For example one of my cats needs 220 Kcal daily, and therefore 78,75µg iodine, the other needs 270 kcal and 94,5µg iodine. There is a 10% margin, but you have to be aware that, as stated in the NRC, no upper safe limit has yet been defined for cats' iodine requirement: some studies have been conducted where they were giving super high iodine and there was no significant outcome so they left it inconclusive. BUT too low an intake does have consequences.
FEDIAF has set iodine values a little bit higher: according to their recommendations, my big cat needs 99,6µg iodine daily with a 10% margin, and the other one needs 88,2 µg.
If needed, I can help you figure out your cat's daily energy requirements and all the rest.

Otherwise, a useful website to check the nutrient content of foodstuff can be found here:

FoodData Central

fdc.nal.usda.gov

 

[Dakera]

Just want to correct something I said offhand: it looks like pork liver is actually very high in Vitamin A... I must have had the parameter on 1 oz instead of 100g or 4oz like I usually do.

About pork liver: copper may not be bioavailable, so if used, you should also supplement in copper (Eastern oysters are a good source of both zinc and copper). Copper is a trace element, but it is extremely important for a wide range of metabolic functions, as well as for bones, the circulatory system, etc, etc, etc.

 

[Tuckamukk3]

Hi there!
About Iodine, the NRC states that a healthy 4 kg cat needs 350µg/1000kcal iodine. So if you can figure out how much kcal your cat needs daily, you can then also evaluate how much iodine he needs. For example one of my cats needs 220 Kcal daily, and therefore 78,75µg iodine, the other needs 270 kcal and 94,5µg iodine. There is a 10% margin, but you have to be aware that, as stated in the NRC, no upper safe limit has yet been defined for cats' iodine requirement: some studies have been conducted where they were giving super high iodine and there was no significant outcome so they left it inconclusive. BUT too low an intake does have consequences.
FEDIAF has set iodine values a little bit higher: according to their recommendations, my big cat needs 99,6µg iodine daily with a 10% margin, and the other one needs 88,2 µg.
If needed, I can help you figure out your cat's daily energy requirements and all the rest.

Otherwise, a useful website to check the nutrient content of foodstuff can be found here:

http://[URL]https://fdc.nal.usda.gov/fdc-app.html#/food-details/748967/nutrients

[/URL]

Thanks for your response, and your offer to help with calculations . Iodine is one thing that seems to vary a lot among recipes and recommendations. Some people err on the side of more, others on the side of less. I've heard a few people here express concerns about giving too much, and so I've been a little wary of the NRC recommendations. I'm not sure how much information about these studies is available unless you have the actual books, but until I feel more informed to have an opinion, Ive just been trying to approximate the amount of iodine Alnutrin includes in its mixes since my cats were on that for a few years.

I've recently started making spreadsheets of my recipes, (which can be tedious at times because I have no previous experience making spreadsheets). And I've been using nutritionvalue.org for the nutrient data. So far, it seems that my recipes, which are just under 6 lbs, generally come to about 4000 calories. For 6 lbs, Alnutrin for meat and bone includes (minimum guaranteed analysis) of 480 mcg, Alnutrin with calcium contains 400 mcg for 6lbs (recently Ive been including bone in all my mixes). Anyway, if my calorie count is fairly representative, that would be only 100 - 120 mcg iodine per 1000 kcal. This is much lower than NRC, but higher than the feline-nutrition.org recipe which only had 240 mcg added to about 6 lbs food. Though there are 4 egg yolks in that recipe, which would make it more like 340 mcg. And Dr. Lisa Pierson uses a proportionately similar amount of lite salt as that recipe does, so.... very confusing because supposedly thats pretty low at about 85 mcg per 1000 kcal. Some meats apparently have a few mcg per 4 ounces too though, so that adds a little. And some sources claim chicken and other bird necks can add some thyroid hormones, but no one seems to know for sure or approximately how much.

With all this confusion, I'm just going to replicate the amount of iodine in Alnutrin for now until I feel less confused! I did switch from using lite salt to using Life Flo liquid iodine drops because I was uncomfortable with the 240 mcg amount per the feline-nutrition.org recipe as it seemed very low, but wanted to avoid the extra salt. I was kind of uncomfortable with the sodium anyway as it didn't seem necessary.

Oh, and regarding the pork liver, I passed on that because I would have had to buy 5lbs of it, and it's so high in Vit A that I wouldn't have been able to use very much. I switch between chicken and beef liver, though when using beef I only do 2 - 3% instead of 5 because it too is higher in vitamin A, but my cats rotate recipes every couple days so the copper evens out over a fairly short amount of time. Feel like I'm definitely still learning though!

 

[Dakera]

Thanks for your response, and your offer to help with calculations . Iodine is one thing that seems to vary a lot among recipes and recommendations. Some people err on the side of more, others on the side of less. I've heard a few people here express concerns about giving too much, and so I've been a little wary of the NRC recommendations. I'm not sure how much information about these studies is available unless you have the actual books, but until I feel more informed to have an opinion, Ive just been trying to approximate the amount of iodine Alnutrin includes in its mixes since my cats were on that for a few years.

I've recently started making spreadsheets of my recipes, (which can be tedious at times because I have no previous experience making spreadsheets). And I've been using nutritionvalue.org for the nutrient data. So far, it seems that my recipes, which are just under 6 lbs, generally come to about 4000 calories. For 6 lbs, Alnutrin for meat and bone includes (minimum guaranteed analysis) of 480 mcg, Alnutrin with calcium contains 400 mcg for 6lbs (recently Ive been including bone in all my mixes). Anyway, if my calorie count is fairly representative, that would be only 100 - 120 mcg iodine per 1000 kcal. This is much lower than NRC, but higher than the feline-nutrition.org recipe which only had 240 mcg added to about 6 lbs food. Though there are 4 egg yolks in that recipe, which would make it more like 340 mcg. And Dr. Lisa Pierson uses a proportionately similar amount of lite salt as that recipe does, so.... very confusing because supposedly thats pretty low at about 85 mcg per 1000 kcal. Some meats apparently have a few mcg per 4 ounces too though, so that adds a little. And some sources claim chicken and other bird necks can add some thyroid hormones, but no one seems to know for sure or approximately how much.

With all this confusion, I'm just going to replicate the amount of iodine in Alnutrin for now until I feel less confused! I did switch from using lite salt to using Life Flo liquid iodine drops because I was uncomfortable with the 240 mcg amount per the feline-nutrition.org recipe as it seemed very low, but wanted to avoid the extra salt. I was kind of uncomfortable with the sodium anyway as it didn't seem necessary.

Oh, and regarding the pork liver, I passed on that because I would have had to buy 5lbs of it, and it's so high in Vit A that I wouldn't have been able to use very much. I switch between chicken and beef liver, though when using beef I only do 2 - 3% instead of 5 because it too is higher in vitamin A, but my cats rotate recipes every couple days so the copper evens out over a fairly short amount of time. Feel like I'm definitely still learning though!

Yes, you're quite right, there is no consensus about iodine, and the pet food manufacturers have a tendency to go rather on the low end of iodine in their products. It seems however that a regular intake is far more important, I mean by that that it's far more important to give the same dose of I every day than to give once a week a high dose. So I guess you're good with Alnutrin.
I'm sending you a paper by Dr. Peterson where he discusses the risk factors in cats developing hyperthyroidism (kind of an obsession with me I know! But one of my cats developed it and that's how I came to reading about the feline endocrinal system and pouf! slippery slope down to raw feeding! I also first landed on Dr. Pierson website, but first, I cannot find lite iodized salt where I am, and then somehow through readings, particularly studies from the past 5 years, I've come to add some veggies to their diet for their gut's microbiome - something she's vehemently opposed to). He talks about the highly variable iodine content of canned food, among other things: https://www.researchgate.net/public..._hyperthyroidism_-_Risk_factors_and_diagnosis

For my recipes, I use Cronometer to get an analytical content of each batch, I find it very convenient because you can also put in how many servings each batch has, and it gives me a precise calculation of kcal per serving as well as all the analytical contents of vitamins minerals and macronutrients. You just have to go to Food -> Custom Recipes and start writing.

Cronometer: Eat smarter. Live better.

Track nutrition and count calories

cronometer.com

And at last, you can get the exact nutrient needs for your cat at this site: NRC Nutrient Requirements of Dogs and Cats
You will need to know his daily energy requirement, however, and in order to figure that out there is a standard calculation:
Step 1: your cat's weight^67= metabolic weight. For example, my cat weighs 5kg: 5^67=2,94 = that's her MW.
And step 2: you need to figure out something called "energy multiplier", which means how many kcal he actually needs depending on his age and level of activity. My cat is senior but still plays a lot, so her EM is 90: 2,94 x 90 = 264.
264kcal is what she needs for maintenance.

The energy multiplier goes from 55-70 for low-moderate to 70-100 for high energy requirements. The NRC standard is 100, which is a lot, and cats tend to gain weight.
I know this all seems super complicated, but once you've figured that out it gets easier to determine the rest.

Beef liver is great! It's one of the richest offals in copper, you won't need to adjust it!
I'm still learning, we're all still learning! What's important is to be open to reconsidering and correcting and adjusting. And hopefully, our cats will thrive for a very long time!

 

[Tuckamukk3]

Thanks for such an informed reply! And thanks for all the links - I already started messing around with that Cronometer - I didn't know there was such a thing online for free so that's cool! I compared some of the data for the batch I made today, with the spreadsheet where I manually entered all of the data and most of it seemed to match - I did notice the Cronometer read a lot higher on Omega 3 though and vitamin K, so there may be a few discrepancies but it sure is faster than manual entry, that's for sure!
I'll read that article on hyperthyroidism, so thanks for that too. And that NRC link is interesting, I was just looking at that. I've not been across that page before.

Yeah, I get a bit lost when it comes to the calculations with the little ^ symbols. I don't know how to do those calculations - do you need a special calculator or something? Anything beyond basic multiplication and division puzzles me. My cats do vary a bit in their caloric intake even though their weight only varies by a pound or so. I've got one male who's high energy, another male that weighs the same but eats less, and a female who weighs about a lb less and eats less than both males, quite a bit less than my high energy male. However, right now I'm still making large amounts of food at once for all 3 - it's sort of a compromise between PMR and traditional "batches" in that I only grind enough to mix supplements into, chunk the meat in lg pieces, chunk heart in smaller pieces, and mince the organs. Meaty bones are either chopped and mixed with the rest, or portioned at mealtime depending on what they are. But most of the recipe is premixed - I cant imagine making a separate recipe for each cat because they have different energy requirements. It just wouldn't be practical.

I haven't read much about vegetables in cat diets, but I too recently became interested in learning more about gut health because of some issues one of my cats was having (including needing more food than he used to.) I did slowly start said cat on pre/probiotics just a week or so ago, so we'll see if that seems to make a difference over time. The particular ones I bought were recommended by a raw feeding site for both ibd and non ibd cats, and they were described as being safe and beneficial for both. I've also read about making kefir which I think some people do in lieu of store bought probiotics.

 

[Dakera]

Yes I know! I also struggled to understand at first what this ^ sign is, apparently, it's very common among people who know some basics in maths…Glad that I'm not the only one with none of this basic knowledge!
It's the exponentiation symbol, you can find it under the xy key on any calculator (where the y is small and kind of floats up), and also online calculators.

About food energy density, I don't prepare two separate recipes, I just give the lazy one less, and the other more, this way their kcal need is met.

I wouldn't worry about too much omega 3, cats have a pretty wide range of omega6mega3 ratio, contrary to us humans. It can be up to 2.6 omega6 for 1 omega3, in my recipe I have 1,9gr omega6 for 0,49gr omega3 (which equals to 3,8:1 ratio), pretty high but it's good for the seniors (omega 3 is good for any auto-immune disease like allergies and arthritis). And for vitamin K there are no reports of excess, so you're good.

I would more worry about having a precise ratio of calcium to phosphorus, as too much phosphorus is detrimental from the kidneys. The Ca ratio range is 1,5:1 - 0,9:1, and for my seniors I stick to a strict 1,1:1 ratio. It is easy for me to measure because I give them eggshell powder (old cats tend to be lazy or have no teeth to gnaw on bones, plus the bones have a high concentration of phosphorus, so I prefer it this way).

I've never heard of kefir for cats! For now, I add them some 5% of zucchini/pumpkin. Zucchini has a good balance of soluble/non soluble fiber, pumpkin has more insoluble but comes with potassium. I also add a probiotic capsule per 2 pounds of food, thinking of upping it a bit to three per 2kg food. From what I've read so far, prebiotics have shown to have no impact in the GI microbiome, but as I said, still learning! That said, beware of any probiotics sold for pets, they are not regulated nor controlled, I bought one for humans with a wide arrange of beneficial bacterias for cats (from the Lactobacillus family, bifiobacterium and streptococus). You just have to avoid anything made with soy-usually used for the capsule for vegan use.

 

[Dakera]

I forgot to tell you, one probiotic to consider (it was used in studies with very promising results) is the SLAB51, commercialized in Europe under the name Sivomixx, I don't know if you can find it generic...

 

[Tuckamukk3]

Yes I know! I also struggled to understand at first what this ^ sign is, apparently, it's very common among people who know some basics in maths…Glad that I'm not the only one with none of this basic knowledge!
It's the exponentiation symbol, you can find it under the xy key on any calculator (where the y is small and kind of floats up), and also online calculators.

About food energy density, I don't prepare two separate recipes, I just give the lazy one less, and the other more, this way their kcal need is met.

I wouldn't worry about too much omega 3, cats have a pretty wide range of omega6mega3 ratio, contrary to us humans. It can be up to 2.6 omega6 for 1 omega3, in my recipe I have 1,9gr omega6 for 0,49gr omega3 (which equals to 3,8:1 ratio), pretty high but it's good for the seniors (omega 3 is good for any auto-immune disease like allergies and arthritis). And for vitamin K there are no reports of excess, so you're good.

I would more worry about having a precise ratio of calcium to phosphorus, as too much phosphorus is detrimental from the kidneys. The Ca ratio range is 1,5:1 - 0,9:1, and for my seniors I stick to a strict 1,1:1 ratio. It is easy for me to measure because I give them eggshell powder (old cats tend to be lazy or have no teeth to gnaw on bones, plus the bones have a high concentration of phosphorus, so I prefer it this way).

I've never heard of kefir for cats! For now, I add them some 5% of zucchini/pumpkin. Zucchini has a good balance of soluble/non soluble fiber, pumpkin has more insoluble but comes with potassium. I also add a probiotic capsule per 2 pounds of food, thinking of upping it a bit to three per 2kg food. From what I've read so far, prebiotics have shown to have no impact in the GI microbiome, but as I said, still learning! That said, beware of any probiotics sold for pets, they are not regulated nor controlled, I bought one for humans with a wide arrange of beneficial bacterias for cats (from the Lactobacillus family, bifiobacterium and streptococus). You just have to avoid anything made with soy-usually used for the capsule for vegan use.

Yes I know! I also struggled to understand at first what this ^ sign is, apparently, it's very common among people who know some basics in maths…Glad that I'm not the only one with none of this basic knowledge!
It's the exponentiation symbol, you can find it under the xy key on any calculator (where the y is small and kind of floats up), and also online calculators.

About food energy density, I don't prepare two separate recipes, I just give the lazy one less, and the other more, this way their kcal need is met.

I wouldn't worry about too much omega 3, cats have a pretty wide range of omega6mega3 ratio, contrary to us humans. It can be up to 2.6 omega6 for 1 omega3, in my recipe I have 1,9gr omega6 for 0,49gr omega3 (which equals to 3,8:1 ratio), pretty high but it's good for the seniors (omega 3 is good for any auto-immune disease like allergies and arthritis). And for vitamin K there are no reports of excess, so you're good.

I would more worry about having a precise ratio of calcium to phosphorus, as too much phosphorus is detrimental from the kidneys. The Ca ratio range is 1,5:1 - 0,9:1, and for my seniors I stick to a strict 1,1:1 ratio. It is easy for me to measure because I give them eggshell powder (old cats tend to be lazy or have no teeth to gnaw on bones, plus the bones have a high concentration of phosphorus, so I prefer it this way).

I've never heard of kefir for cats! For now, I add them some 5% of zucchini/pumpkin. Zucchini has a good balance of soluble/non soluble fiber, pumpkin has more insoluble but comes with potassium. I also add a probiotic capsule per 2 pounds of food, thinking of upping it a bit to three per 2kg food. From what I've read so far, prebiotics have shown to have no impact in the GI microbiome, but as I said, still learning! That said, beware of any probiotics sold for pets, they are not regulated nor controlled, I bought one for humans with a wide arrange of beneficial bacterias for cats (from the Lactobacillus family, bifiobacterium and streptococus). You just have to avoid anything made with soy-usually used for the capsule for vegan use.

Thanks for the ^ explanation. I think my dad might have a capable calculator in his desk, so I'll try to figure out those calculations.

I do the same, Ive just been feeding my cats proportionately what they eat, however, Ive been using the per 1000 kcal recommendations, which apparently are geared more towards high energy requirements.

You brought up two things that I haven't figured out how to calculate in a scientific way. The first, Omega 3 I've just been following a recipe recommendation on that (which is 4000 mg per my recipe amount which is 93 oz.) I've always only counted the EPA plus DHA towards that number, but my brand is fairly high EPA + DHA at 750mg per 1000mg fish oil. I also read somewhere years ago that Dr Pierson recommended 300 mg EPA + DHA per cat, so I used to actually give that much, which was a bit more. But I don't actually KNOW how to CALCULATE it in a diet.

The second thing is Ca I only know how to calculate recommended percentages, which I aim at 7%. But for the life of me I haven't been able to figure out how that translates into Ca. I've tried researching how much calcium and phosphorus is in bone, but ultimately have not been able to find that information. I can figure it out for eggshell powder but I haven't been using that at all lately, as Ive read that the connective tissues in bone are important for gut health.

This page is the page that I found so informative on probiotics for cats:

Prebiotics & Probiotics for Cats: Healing Inflammation and gut dysbiosis

The same website also has information on making kefir for cats and bone broth. I ended up buying the Jarrow brand S. Boulardii plus MOS and the NOW brand Probiotic Defense which has a lower amount of probiotics but includes fermented grasses. So far I'm only using the Jarrow one on one of my cats who recently developed a severe chicken egg intolerance, started needing more calories, and just generally seemed to be getting a more sensitive stomach. Also, one time when he threw up from the chicken egg he vomitted up what looked like a puddle of pus (!). That's what sent me reading about ibd and gut issues.